/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Nov 06 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  11. # [00:08] <annevk> we should organize a WHATCAMP; a place for developers and standards people to meet
  12. # [00:08] <annevk> (not my idea)
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  14. # [00:09] <annevk> I get the feeling there's a lot of subtle things we can change that would improve the web for everyone
  15. # [00:09] <annevk> having met with some developers in the past week
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  18. # [00:16] <smaug____> annevk: hopefully somewhere in Europe
  19. # [00:16] <smaug____> but yes, sounds like a good idea
  20. # [00:17] <zcorpan> Örebro maybe? :-)
  21. # [00:17] <smaug____> Opera could arrange it... Oslo perhaps? I haven't been there :)
  22. # [00:20] <smaug____> might be easier to arrange it in Brussels close to Fosdem, like couple of days before Fosdem
  23. # [00:20] <annevk> that does not sound too bad
  24. # [00:21] <annevk> I think we should have it in the bay area too, but experimenting closer to home works better for me :)
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  26. # [00:22] * smaug____ is all for trying to make technology world less US centric
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  28. # [00:23] <smaug____> annevk: perhaps Opera and Mozilla Europe could arrange something together.
  29. # [00:24] <zcorpan> what do you guys think about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14364 ?
  30. # [00:24] <annevk> yeah
  31. # [00:25] <annevk> zcorpan: there's a lot of interest here
  32. # [00:25] <annevk> zcorpan: pretty much everyone dealing with appcache also wants dynamic; but it's kind of dinstict
  33. # [00:26] <annevk> zcorpan: appcache is atomic, this is somewhat separate from that
  34. # [00:26] <annevk> wycats had these notes:
  35. # [00:26] <annevk> window.localResources.add(url, callback) => window.localResources.remove(url) => window.localResources.update(url, callback)
  36. # [00:26] <annevk> window.localResource.on("update", callback)
  37. # [00:27] <annevk> I think sicking thinks this should be solved using Indexed DB
  38. # [00:27] <annevk> download first and then store it in the database
  39. # [00:27] <annevk> but that seems less convenient as you cannot keep using URLs at that point
  40. # [00:28] <annevk> zcorpan: does that help?
  41. # [00:29] <zcorpan> so sicking thinks appcache shouldn't be used at all?
  42. # [00:30] <annevk> app cache is what is required to make your app run offline
  43. # [00:30] <annevk> resources on top of that such as media or large amounts of email is typically stored in different ways
  44. # [00:31] <annevk> e.g. for email attachments it seems sensible to store them in Indexed DB
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  46. # [00:31] <annevk> but there is probably room between the two for cached URLs
  47. # [00:32] <annevk> tantek: hey
  48. # [00:32] <annevk> tantek: so I'm just using macports
  49. # [00:32] <tantek> greetings
  50. # [00:32] <tantek> oh ok
  51. # [00:34] <annevk> tantek: updated the spec just now
  52. # [00:34] <annevk> hg clone, hg pull, hg update, hg commit, hg push
  53. # [00:35] <annevk> it's "fairly" trivial
  54. # [00:35] <tantek> ah ok - sounds not too different than git
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  56. # [00:38] <smaug____> obviously tantek should do some gecko development to get used to hg
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  58. # [00:38] <annevk> he does work for Mozilla... :p
  59. # [00:38] <smaug____> I know :)
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  61. # [00:40] <annevk> btw tantek, see the logs for "WHATCAMP"; standards/developers/browsers
  62. # [00:42] <tantek> ooh that sounds like a good idea
  63. # [00:42] <tantek> annevk - I took a look at the draft, we want the OWFa statement to autoupdate as well
  64. # [00:42] <tantek> s/4 November 2011/[DATE: 01 Jan 1901]
  65. # [00:42] <tantek> smaug :)
  66. # [00:43] <zcorpan> ok who will be the one to save <hgroup>?
  67. # [00:43] <tantek> zcorpan - I'm considering it
  68. # [00:43] <annevk> tantek: oh I didn't realize that
  69. # [00:43] <tantek> annevk - that way it indicates that we've agreed to OWFa on the very latest draft
  70. # [00:44] <annevk> also fixed
  71. # [00:44] <tantek> I like <hgroup> semantically, and am unsure about the usefulness of its impact on the outline algorithm
  72. # [00:44] <tantek> nice
  73. # [00:45] <zcorpan> tantek: cool
  74. # [00:45] <tantek> I'm considering writing up a change proposal just to keep the semantics part, and drop the impact on the outline algorithm.
  75. # [00:45] <tantek> I'm wondering if there are enough people that would care however.
  76. # [00:45] <tantek> Because if I'm the only one that cares then it doesn't make sense to save hgroup.
  77. # [00:46] <zcorpan> wait what? impacting the outline algorithm is the semantic <hgroup> has!
  78. # [00:46] <annevk> tantek: I want to use it for my specs at least
  79. # [00:47] <annevk> tantek: afaik people want to keep it and I doubt it will be dropped across both specs...
  80. # [00:47] <zcorpan> nobody has written a no-change CP
  81. # [00:49] <tantek> zcorpan - the use-case of having it impact the outline algorithm which then would affect things like tables of contents - is not described as it is used in practice.
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  83. # [00:49] <tantek> e.g. in a book with a title with subhead, or a chapter title with subhead, the text of both is grouped and shown together, rather than hidden
  84. # [00:49] <tantek> rather than the subhead being hidden that is
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  86. # [00:50] <tantek> zcorpan - if you'd like to work together on a change proposal - I'm for it
  87. # [00:50] <tantek> feel free to get started and I'll contribute
  88. # [00:50] <zcorpan> the subhead doesn't need to be hidden in the ToC, i think
  89. # [00:51] <zcorpan> the <hgroup> is the heading, and it just gets its *rank* from the highest ranked h* child
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  91. # [00:51] <zcorpan> what text to use in the ToC is not defined
  92. # [00:52] * tantek is working on a few change proposals already (enhanced time, keep/introduce data, etc.)
  93. # [00:53] <tantek> zcorpan that wasn't my understanding - but I can re-read the spec.
  94. # [00:54] <zcorpan> hmm. seems i was wrong.
  95. # [00:54] <zcorpan> "For the purposes of document summaries, outlines, and the like, the text of hgroup elements is defined to be the text of the highest ranked h1–h6 element descendant of the hgroup element, if there are any such elements, and the first such element if there are multiple elements with that rank. If there are no such elements, then the text of the hgroup element is the empty string."
  96. # [00:54] <zcorpan> i think that should be considered a UI issue and not restricted like that
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  98. # [00:54] <tantek> zcorpan - what you described above (not quoted) is the effect I want because that's what I've seen happen in outlines/ToCs
  99. # [00:54] <tantek> zcorpan - I would be happy with that too.
  100. # [00:58] <zcorpan> tantek: if the effect hgroup has was removed from the outline algo altogether, then <hgroup><h1></h1><h2></h2></hgroup> would create two *sections*, which is not wanted
  101. # [00:58] <tantek> zcorpan - aha I see what you mean
  102. # [00:59] <tantek> In practice, semantic subheads are joined with their heading using some sort of combination character.
  103. # [00:59] <tantek> e.g.
  104. # [00:59] <tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age
  105. # [00:59] <zcorpan> i don't have time right now to write a CP (have to sleep), but i'd suggest no-change CP except loosen the paragraph quoted above
  106. # [01:01] <zcorpan> (rationale: what text to use in ToC etc is a UI issue, and the spec usually doesn't restrict UI choices)
  107. # [01:02] <tantek> effectively has <hgroup><h1>The Diamond Age</h1> <h2>Or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer</h1></hgroup>
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  109. # [01:02] <annevk> back later
  110. # [01:02] <tantek> but when the h1 and h2 are combined, they're combined with a ":"
  111. # [01:02] <tantek> The Diamond Age: Or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer
  112. # [01:02] <tantek> ttyl annevk
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  114. # [01:03] <zcorpan> yep
  115. # [01:03] <tantek> thus it would be particularly useful if <hgroup> allowed for specifying how to join the headings when making a single string
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  117. # [01:03] <zcorpan> that smells like overengineering to me :)
  118. # [01:03] <tantek> I don't have a specific suggestion except perhaps a combiner attribute that takes a string to insert between the different heading children
  119. # [01:03] <tantek> perhaps
  120. # [01:03] <tantek> we can mention it as considered and rejected too.
  121. # [01:04] * zcorpan would keep it simple
  122. # [01:04] <zcorpan> if you write a CP, i'm happy to review it tomorrow
  123. # [01:05] <zcorpan> or maybe i can write one tomorrow if you don't
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  125. # [01:05] <tantek> zcorpan - tomorrow is fine - go ahead and start one
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  127. # [01:05] <tantek> I would but I'm already working on two
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  129. # [01:05] <zcorpan> k
  130. # [01:05] <zcorpan> g'night
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  138. # [01:51] <tantek> FYI: http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/data_element change proposal to re-add the data element. Comments welcome.
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  148. # [02:42] <wilhelm> Mike[tm]: Did you say you were headed to SF today? If you want to head out later, do tell. I'm in the neighbourhood now.
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  161. # [04:21] <sicking> annevk5: that's not actually what I was thinking at all. I was just saying that if you have big chunks of data to store locally, you should use blobs in indexedDB
  162. # [04:22] <sicking> annevk5: it sounds like a good idea to me to allow modifying the appcache to add and remove files
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  210. # [09:22] <roc> I am not entirely happy that the CSS WG spends unbounded amounts of energy micro-optimizing gradient syntax while issues like "region styling interacts disastrously with stacking contexts" get no attention
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  212. # [09:23] <roc> </whine>
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  231. # [11:36] <zcorpan> ok i've submitted my first CP
  232. # [11:36] <zcorpan> i thought i would never write a CP, but oh well
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  267. # [14:53] <annevk> zcorpan: so it seems everyone is on board with dynamic appcache then
  268. # [14:54] * annevk misunderstood sicking
  269. # [14:57] <annevk> someone should create http://isthepfwgpublicyet.com/
  270. # [15:04] <Workshiva> It exists, you just typoed the URL
  271. # [15:05] <Workshiva> data:text/html,<title>Is%20the%20PF%20WG%20public%20yet?</title><p>No
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  273. # [15:09] <annevk> my bad
  274. # [15:10] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, the coloring in these examples didn't make it into the feed. You should either use inline CSS instead of classes, or tell readers to look at the original post if they want coloring: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/view-source/
  275. # [15:10] <AryehGregor> (syndication is exactly the sort of scenario where inline style is appropriate, IMO)
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  280. # [15:49] <zcorpan> The Styling Is Part Of The Content!11
  281. # [15:50] <bga_> body::after { content: 'long text' } ?
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  295. # [16:22] <astearns> roc: has "region styling interacts disastrously with stacking contexts" been brought up on www-style?
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  325. # [19:00] <Hixie> annevk: you around?
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  345. # [20:33] <roc> astearns: yes
  346. # [20:36] <astearns> roc: got a pointer to the thread? I'm happy to make sure the issue gets some attention
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  416. # Session Close: Mon Nov 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)