/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 09 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> ojan: there's actually some more edge cases :(
  4. # [00:01] <annevk> e.g. Comment can appear as descendant of Document
  5. # [00:01] <annevk> ProcessingInstruction too
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  7. # [00:01] <annevk> so for those you need to check the parent and throw or something
  8. # [00:02] <smaug____> annevk: ok, I think I like the proposal :)
  9. # [00:02] <annevk> sweet
  10. # [00:02] * danbeam__ is now known as danbeam
  11. # [00:02] <danbeam> is there a room for the CSSWG on freenode?
  12. # [00:03] <smaug____> danbeam: for w3c stuff use w3c's irc server
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  14. # [00:04] <annevk> #css on irc.w3.org:6665
  15. # [00:04] <danbeam> smaug____, annevk thanks!
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  110. # [04:34] <sephr> roc: please don't tell me that that SVG in img patch is in firefox 8 stable
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  118. # [04:36] <roc> the patch that breaks blob URIs?
  119. # [04:36] <roc> it's being backed out
  120. # [04:37] <sephr> I haven't even looked at the patch; I was just under the impression that it broke them from what you said
  121. # [04:37] <sephr> alright thanks
  122. # [04:37] <sephr> roc: speaking of ff8 changes, what's with the ugly 'no favicon' favicon?
  123. # [04:38] <roc> no idea
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  126. # [04:48] <jarek> why W3C validator marks "@media all and (orientation: portrait) {}" as invalid?
  127. # [04:49] <jarek> I'm getting "portrait is not a orientation value ) {}" error
  128. # [04:49] <jarek> is this a bug in the validator?
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  162. # [07:55] <asmodai> *sigh* that's awesome. 7.0.1 FF browser suddenly hangs on opening all my tabs on startup after upgrading to either 7.0.2/8.0
  163. # [07:55] <asmodai> Time to get debugging again
  164. # [07:56] <asmodai> Consistent hang though, 13% CPU (Core i7) and ~320 MB
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  200. # [09:39] <asmodai> Oh wow, http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/exclusive-adobe-ceases-development-on-mobile-browser-flash-refocuses-efforts-on-html5/19226
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  203. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> Philip`, feel like doing some explaining in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14421 ?
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  209. # [10:07] <hsivonen> I wonder what the current thinking about X-OperaMini-Phone* headers is in the Opera Mini team these days. Good idea in retrospect? Bad idea in retrospect?
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  239. # [11:17] <Areks> hello all
  240. # [11:17] <Areks> does ie8 support canvas or svg?
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  245. # [11:27] <jarek__> Areks: http://caniuse.com/#search=canvas http://caniuse.com/#search=svg
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  293. # [14:35] <asmodai> What a news day, both Flash and Silverlight seemingly going the way of the dodo.
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  295. # [14:37] <smaug____> oh, also silverlight
  296. # [14:37] <smaug____> good good
  297. # [14:40] <asmodai> http://www.theverge.com/2011/11/9/2548975/microsoft-may-halt-development-work-on-silverlight-after-next-release
  298. # [14:40] <smaug____> if we could add NaCl to that list, then the day would be really good
  299. # [14:40] <asmodai> Was not that unanticipated after the WinRT announcement
  300. # [14:41] <zcorpan> can someone explain "entry script" and give illustrative examples? :)
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  303. # [14:47] <asmodai> having no context I could imagine entry script being the first script that runs and acts like a bootstrapper? :)
  304. # [14:48] * jgraham thinks illustrated examples would be more fun than illustrative examples
  305. # [14:48] <Philip`> smaug____: Do you know if anyone has started using NaCl in real life yet?
  306. # [14:49] <Philip`> (Anyone other than Google, in particular)
  307. # [14:49] <asmodai> Philip`: I know some gamedevs investigating it
  308. # [14:49] <asmodai> Philip`: and working on code for it
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  310. # [14:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: Isn't it just the script associated with the topmost item in the callstack?
  311. # [14:51] <jgraham> (assuming a downward growing stack)
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  313. # [14:51] <asmodai> Heh, acquaintance complaining about canvas performance: http://starlon.lyrical.net/canvas_spiney.php
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  315. # [14:53] <nlogax> i get ~1 fps on a quad-core i7.
  316. # [14:54] <asmodai> Heh
  317. # [14:54] <asmodai> that averages what some of us see
  318. # [14:54] <asmodai> 0.3 fps to 2 fps depending on browser
  319. # [14:55] <Philip`> That doesn't exactly look like an efficient implementation of that effect
  320. # [14:56] <asmodai> Suggestions welcome, i'll let him know ^^
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  323. # [14:59] <zcorpan> jgraham: what's the entry script when script A document.writes script B, for instance?
  324. # [15:00] <Philip`> asmodai: For a start, don't blindly port code that's optimised for C :-)
  325. # [15:01] <jgraham> zcorpan: When A is running it is A. When B is running it is B
  326. # [15:01] <Philip`> There's a load of stuff like of[ofptr + 0]=DIV_2(f[fptr + 0]) + DIV_8(f[fptr + 0]) + DIV_8(f[fptr + 1]) + DIV_8(f[fptr + -1]) + DIV_8(f2[f2ptr + 0]) + adj_tl2;
  327. # [15:01] <Philip`> which is assuming array lookups are free, and assuming DIV_2 is a macro and free, etc
  328. # [15:02] <Philip`> Better to understand what it's doing algorithmically and then work out how to implement that as sensible efficient JS
  329. # [15:02] <jgraham> zcorpan: At least AIUI. Because the script ends up in "creating scripts" which ends up in "calling scripts" which always changes the entry point
  330. # [15:03] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok. thanks
  331. # [15:06] <asmodai> Philip`: *nod*
  332. # [15:06] <asmodai> he did mention:
  333. # [15:07] <asmodai> << starlon>> Should be accessing the image data directly for one.
  334. # [15:07] <smaug____> asmodai: that code could perhaps use typed arrays (at least when those are available)
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  336. # [15:09] <asmodai> It's funny because people, not this guy, are whining about the state of HTML5 and taking over Flash features while it's not ready for it, but a lot of it is a bit catch-22, the moment Flash drops and people look at HTML5 it will drive HTML5 forward faster
  337. # [15:09] <Philip`> asmodai: I'd hypothesise (with no attempt at profiling the code or looking in any real detail) that the part that interacts with the canvas is fast (since it seems to be basically just putImageData), and it's all the JS code doing computations that is slow
  338. # [15:09] <asmodai> Philip`: That could very well be.
  339. # [15:09] <jgraham> I would hpothesise, without looking at anything, that there is no reason that the javascript should be slow for this
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  341. # [15:10] <asmodai> jgraham: Haha
  342. # [15:10] <jgraham> if it is written in a way that works well
  343. # [15:10] <jgraham> (which it isn't at present)
  344. # [15:12] <smaug____> jgraham: btw, does Opera support typed arrays?
  345. # [15:13] <Philip`> I'd assume there's no fundamental reason it should necessarily be more than like 10x slower than C, if it's optimised for JS
  346. # [15:14] <smaug____> 10x sounds quite a lot
  347. # [15:14] <jgraham> smaug____: Yes, in the snapshots
  348. # [15:14] <jgraham> Although I am not 100% sure how optimised they are yet
  349. # [15:15] <asmodai> http://blog.illyriad.co.uk/index.php/2011/11/webgl-experiments-illyriads-3d-town/
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  354. # [15:31] <hsivonen> Looks like there are Android fanbois who became Flash fanbois because Android had Flash but iOS didn't
  355. # [15:32] <hsivonen> I'm making inferences from Android Central comments on Firefox 8 and the news about Adobe no longer developing Flash Player for mobile
  356. # [15:36] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Quit: mishunov)
  357. # [15:37] <asmodai> That's weird.
  358. # [15:37] <asmodai> I am a huge Android enjoyer, but I would not mind to see Flash go bye bye
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  361. # [15:42] <zcorpan> i haven't had a single case of "hmm i need to install flash to make this work" on my phone
  362. # [15:44] <asmodai> Watching Khan Academy videos on my tablet does :(
  363. # [15:46] <hsivonen> I occasionally have to copy the page URL from Firefox to Opera Mobile on Android, because there's a video wrapped in swf
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  365. # [15:47] <jgraham> zcorpan: I have needed it to view a resturant website on someone else's phone, I think
  366. # [15:48] <hsivonen> restaurant sites... what's possessing them to use swf and PDF?
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  368. # [15:51] <Philip`> Maybe it's just seen as an extension of printed leaflets produced by their graphic designers, and they don't think they need to bother finding a web developer to get involved
  369. # [15:52] <asmodai> Happens a lot on websites. They convert their weekly product bonus folder to a Flash clickable version >_<
  370. # [15:55] <smaug____> hsivonen: although it was an email attachment, I was very surprised when I got that one pdf news letter yesterday to my moco email
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  376. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> I don't suppose there's any free crippleware Word suitable for testing but not actual use, is there?
  377. # [16:11] <jgraham> Libreoffice? :p
  378. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> I have that, but it would be nice if I could test on Word too.
  379. # [16:11] <jgraham> (yeah, I know that is not sutiable for you :)
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  386. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> I can test in Google Docs, though.
  387. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> That's another data point.
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  390. # [16:25] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: doesn't Google Docs depend on what contenteditable does?
  391. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, no, it doesn't use contenteditable at all.
  392. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> No one in their right mind uses contenteditable for anything, it's a complete trainwreck.
  393. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Well, not exactly.
  394. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> People without the resources of Google Docs are forced to use contenteditable, they just don't use execCommand().
  395. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Some poor suckers do use execCommand(), but anyone sensible uses a library like TinyMCE or such.
  396. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> But anyway, no, currently Google Docs doesn't use contenteditable at all, and its data model isn't even really HTML.
  397. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> But in any event, what I'm testing right now (auto-linking when you type a URL) is independent of contenteditable, except in IE, which I'm testing by itself.
  398. # [16:27] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: what does Google Docs use?
  399. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> Div soup and lots and lots of JavaScript.
  400. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> I mean, they do use HTML for rendering, not canvas or something.
  401. # [16:29] <jgraham> (Docs does actually use contenteditable to get IME support)
  402. # [16:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: I was about to ask about that next
  403. # [16:29] <jgraham> (but they create a contenteditable div and then delete it again, or something)
  404. # [16:29] <AryehGregor> Probably only because they haven't finished writing their own IME yet, anyway.
  405. # [16:29] <jgraham> Well the platform doesn't really support it yet
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  407. # [16:29] <jgraham> They are pushing for it though :)
  408. # [16:29] * AryehGregor doesn't have much of any inside info about this, was just given a brief summary by Annie Sullivan at a Toronto meetup a while back
  409. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> jgraham, why can't you make one up from scratch in JS?
  410. # [16:30] * jgraham only knows what was said at TPAC
  411. # [16:30] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I'm not sure
  412. # [16:30] <jgraham> Maybe the idea is that you should use the system one?
  413. # [16:31] <jgraham> Because different users will have different configurations
  414. # [16:31] <jgraham> and having it work differently on one website would be a problem
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  416. # [16:32] <AryehGregor> One might think that's true for everything else, too.
  417. # [16:32] <AryehGregor> Google Doc constantly annoys me by behaving differently from normal programs when I do things like Ctrl-Backspace.
  418. # [16:33] <jgraham> Well I would be pretty surprised if I typed "hello" and docs inserted "world"
  419. # [16:33] <jgraham> (rather than "hello")
  420. # [16:34] <jgraham> Moreso than if editing commands worked differently
  421. # [16:35] <AryehGregor> I don't think IMEs quite work that way. At least for CJK, they show you what they're going to input and you have to hit space to let it. Although perhaps for common words, users remember the right sequence and don't look because they know what they have to type for the first choice to be correct.
  422. # [16:35] <AryehGregor> I've seen them used, but never tried it myself. (Not that I know any CJK language.)
  423. # [16:36] <jgraham> My imagination is that learning a new IME is roughly like learning a new keyboard layout
  424. # [16:36] <jgraham> But I haven't used one either
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  426. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> I picture it as more like smartphone autosuggest, except there's no option to just keep what you typed.
  427. # [16:43] <AryehGregor> To be fair, LibreOffice also often ignores platform conventions.
  428. # [16:47] <hsivonen> document.body.outerHTML = "<body>foo</body>";
  429. # [16:47] <hsivonen> only pre-Ragnarök Opera works the way authors might expect
  430. # [16:48] <hsivonen> Chrome and Ragnarök work per spec
  431. # [16:48] <hsivonen> IE9 works yet differently
  432. # [16:48] <hsivonen> I guess I'll just make Firefox work per spec like Ragnarök and Chrome
  433. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> What does spec say?
  434. # [16:49] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: you get two heads
  435. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> o_O
  436. # [16:49] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: zero heads in IE9
  437. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> Why should it affect the head at all?
  438. # [16:50] <hsivonen> one head in pre-Ragnarök Opera
  439. # [16:50] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: parsing stuff with html as the context node always generates a head and a body
  440. # [16:51] <hsivonen> correction: zero bodies in IE9 (one head)
  441. # [16:53] <jgraham> Two heads are better than one!
  442. # [16:56] <annevk5> talking about body and head elements as heads and bodies is weird
  443. # [16:56] <annevk5> we're not hitman
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  445. # [16:57] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  446. # [16:58] <jgraham> dglazkov: Damn, I obviously needed to spend more time with you to dull the edge of your optimism
  447. # [16:59] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
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  449. # [17:03] <hsivonen> jgraham, annevk5: do you happen to know why Opera Mobile says "Opera Mobi" in its UA string?
  450. # [17:03] <hsivonen> Is it avoiding the substring "Mobile" or the substring "Opera Mobile"?
  451. # [17:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: No idea
  452. # [17:03] <jgraham> I might be able to ask someone
  453. # [17:04] <jgraham> If you rally care
  454. # [17:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: I do really care, so it would be very nice if you could ask
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  457. # [17:07] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  458. # [17:07] * annevk5 leaves it to jgraham
  459. # [17:07] <annevk5> UA strings make me sad
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  511. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> So Gecko throws on node.childNodes[-1], it seems.
  512. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> document.childNodes[-1] is undefined in IE9, Chrome 16 dev, Opera 12.00. Throws in Firefox 9.0a2.
  513. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> Spec seems to say it should be null.
  514. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> document.childNodes.item(-1) is null in IE9, Firefox 9.0a2, and Opera 12.00. Throws in Chrome 16 dev. Spec seems to say it should be null.
  515. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
  516. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> WebIDL doesn't permit a getter method to return something different from actually indexing, right?
  517. # [19:46] <erlehmann> argl
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  520. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14743
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  526. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Is there a way in Firebug to break on all exceptions, like in WebKit's Web Inspector?
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  535. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> Blech, we really need to standardize HTML serialization properly. Gecko and WebKit behave differently in all sorts of ways.
  536. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, do you know what the story is with HTML serialization? Has anyone tried implementing the spec?
  537. # [20:22] * AryehGregor notices that Gecko URL-encodes <a href=""> in serialization
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  539. # [20:27] <annevk5> you have to pay for Growl now?
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  547. # [20:40] <wilhelm> Do any of the search engines actively use the metadata described on schema.org yet?
  548. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Almost certainly.
  549. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Why would they make the project in the first place if they didn't intend to use it?
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  551. # [20:43] <wilhelm> That's known to happen in this industry. (c:
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  554. # [20:51] <hober> annevk5: made it to the airport ok?
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  558. # [20:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: document.childNodes[-1] is undefined in in the spec
  559. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Hixie, really? How so?
  560. # [20:58] <Hixie> how would it be anything else?
  561. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Hixie, in DOM4, NodeList has a getter, item(). item() is defined to return null for out-of-range indices.
  562. # [20:58] <Hixie> yes, item(-1) definitely returns null
  563. # [20:58] <Hixie> that's a method call
  564. # [20:59] <Hixie> but there's no -1 property
  565. # [20:59] <Hixie> on the object
  566. # [21:00] <Hixie> so you never even get to webidl, you return undefined all the way back in the JS spec
  567. # [21:00] <Hixie> certainly you don't get as far as invoking item()
  568. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  569. # [21:00] * AryehGregor rereads the relevant bit of WebIDL
  570. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> "If an indexed property getter was specified using an operation with an identifier, then the value returned when indexing the object with a given index is the value that would be returned by invoking the operation, passing the index as its only argument."
  571. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> It doesn't say that only holds for supported property indices.
  572. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Maybe it should.
  573. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Otherwise, I don't see where the concept is used.
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  576. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Maybe I should look at the ES binding?
  577. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> (Maybe we should stop pretending WebIDL is language-neutral?)
  578. # [21:03] <Hixie> well you should definitely also be looking at the ES binding, certainly
  579. # [21:03] <Hixie> but also the JS spec
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  581. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> I don't see where ES comes into play. If WebIDL says what happens when you index the object, it overrides ES.
  582. # [21:05] <Hixie> if WebIDL overrides JS then it overrides the parts of JS it overrides, sure. But it doesn't override everything.
  583. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I think this bit implies that every object supporting indexed properties will appear to have all numeric properties from 0 to 2^32 - 2: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-array-index-property-name
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  586. # [21:07] <Hixie> 4.7.2 is the algorithm JS calls
  587. # [21:08] <Hixie> and that algorithm, if the index isn't supported, defers to JS
  588. # [21:08] <Hixie> which then returns undefined
  589. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Hmm, okay.
  590. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> That's confusing.
  591. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> I'll file some WebIDL bugs.
  592. # [21:08] <Hixie> WebIDL doesn't really override JS at all here, it just uses the hooks JS provides
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  596. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14746
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  611. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, does document.childNodes[-1] still throw in Nightly?
  612. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, didn't test, only tested in Aurora.
  613. # [21:55] * AryehGregor looks for Nightly
  614. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> You're probably still on the old bindings, then
  615. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> "old bindings"?
  616. # [21:56] <smaug____> I thought Aurora has new bindings
  617. # [21:56] <smaug____> for nodelists
  618. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> smaug____, but has there been an update already?
  619. # [21:56] * AryehGregor finds https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-daily/+archive/ppa
  620. # [21:57] <smaug____> Ms2ger: ah, true
  621. # [21:57] <smaug____> yeah, AryehGregor, try Nightly
  622. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, DOM bindings, we're experimenting with a new approach on nodelists
  623. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=648801
  624. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> I see, I had the repo installed but needed to install the firefox-trunk package.
  625. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Ah, now it works.
  626. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Nice.
  627. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  628. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> Np :)
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  633. # [22:21] <annevk5> hober: yeah all good
  634. # [22:21] <annevk5> hober: fly in an hour or so, was way on time :)
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  638. # [22:26] <wilhelm> I thought I was running late when flying out on Sunday, but the airport had just forgot to adjust their clocks. :P
  639. # [22:30] <annevk5> ooh, that would be really annoying
  640. # [22:34] <hober> cool
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  644. # [22:48] <annevk5> TabAtkins: fwiw, TR/html5/ uses the script thingie to close the notice
  645. # [22:48] <annevk5> TabAtkins: seems like the path of least resistance
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  669. # Session Close: Thu Nov 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)