/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-20 / end

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  60. # [04:31] <Yuhong> Here is a case where interleaving document.write with appendChild of <base> element had led to a 0-day security bug:
  61. # [04:31] <Yuhong> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607222
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  214. # [18:34] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: You can fake [[Class]] with a custom toString, but then Foo.prototype.toString !== Object.prototype.toString so you just break the spec elsewhere
  215. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, of course, it's not perfect. It will handle the common case of alert(), though.
  216. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> ES5 doesn't allow JS to set [[Class]], so of course you're never going to really get it right from JS.
  217. # [18:35] <gsnedders> And ES6 will get rid of [[Class]] entirely
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  219. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> So FromPropertyDescriptor is defined to only work for a fully populated property descriptor, "such as that returned from [[GetOwnProperty]] (see 8.12.1)". But [[GetOwnProperty]] doesn't say what to do if the object's property wasn't fully populated.
  220. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> If the spec says a property is defined with a [[Get]] field but no [[Set]] field, what's GetOwnProperty supposed to fill in for [[Set]]?
  221. # [19:15] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYGKCMLXXXIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  222. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> Noteworthy: IE9 has a grand total of one WebIDL bug that I've been able to find so far.
  223. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> That's pretty darned impressive.
  224. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> (it always has .length 0 for functions, instead of equal to the max number of arguments)
  225. # [19:20] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Not that surprising seeming they tried to impl it, and their testing of new stuff tends to be pretty good
  226. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I'm not surprised.
  227. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> I assume other implementations predated the spec, and IE9 wrote it from scratch per spec.
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  237. # [19:40] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: AFAIK nobody else has changed their impl in > 10 years
  238. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, apparently Gecko is creating a new implementation, which is deployed for NodeList in current builds.
  239. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> That seems to be per spec, although one of the tests fails (apparently because of a bug in getOPD).
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  241. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, yeah, our DOM bindings are being rewritten mostly from scratch to be less language-neutral
  242. # [19:54] <zewt> an unusual goal for a rewrite, heh
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  244. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> zewt, you don't want to know how much support for python cost(s) us in code complexity
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  247. # [20:14] * AryehGregor discovers that to get an up-to-date node.js, he can either a) not use distributor packages, b) upgrade to 11.10, or c) try using newer packages and get into a rat's nest of dependency failures
  248. # [20:15] * AryehGregor opts for (b)
  249. # [20:15] <AryehGregor> Fortunately, it's been a few years since an Ubuntu upgrade really broke my computer too badly.
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  259. # [20:39] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: See, I'm scared of doing that on my desktop because it's ubuntu-standard (not ubuntu-desktop) with X.org and window manager and all installed manually. Seems more likely to break than something remotely standard.
  260. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  261. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> I stick to the well-trodden paths, personally.
  262. # [20:40] * AryehGregor is alarmed that it thinks it's going to remove gnome-panel, since he relies on that, but will figure out details later
  263. # [20:40] <gsnedders> GNOME Panel is gone with GNOME 3.
  264. # [20:41] <gsnedders> But Ubuntu uses Unity by default anyway
  265. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Right, and that doesn't use gnome-panel either by default, but you can still start it manually in 11.04.
  266. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Which I do.
  267. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> And it works fine.
  268. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> I wrote a Google+ post on why I feel it's necessary.
  269. # [20:41] <gsnedders> Ah, you only have GNOME Shell and Unity as options in 11.10
  270. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Maybe 11.10 Unity makes it unnecessary, I dunno.
  271. # [20:41] <gsnedders> Eh, Unity/GNOME Shell both suck :)
  272. # [20:42] <gsnedders> (I finally moved away from GNOME on my laptop when 11.10 came out… Now experimenting with Arch Linux on it, but it's not prompting for encrypted drive password on boot, yay)
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  276. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Don't you love how installing all the new packages takes a couple of hours, but it will sometimes randomly pause in the middle to prompt you about something, so you can't leave it unattended?
  277. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> And partway through the process, all your existing programs stop working so you can't usefully use the computer?
  278. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> <3 Linux
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  281. # [20:50] * AryehGregor thinks package management is great, but it should really be totally revamped
  282. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> There's no reason most of these packages can't be installed in a separate directory and only activated on reboot, say. And I can't believe bulk upgrades can't be optimized a lot.
  283. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Like using binary delta compression, for starters, the way Chrome does.
  284. # [20:51] * AryehGregor grumbles
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  288. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Whoa, webkit removed document.width/height?
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  290. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, so what attribute normalization are you guys talking about in the the DIDOM thread?
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  295. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> And there is Shelley again...
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  301. # [21:40] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Gentoo is nice and never asks you for information during installation
  302. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Philip`, what does it do instead, give you a root shell and expect you to install X and create any users you want by hand?
  303. # [21:41] <Philip`> (though admittedly it does tell you to do various things after installation, like checking diffs of all the configuration files and deciding which changes to accept, or like reinstalling some other packages that depend on an incompatible version of what you already reinstalled)
  304. # [21:42] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I mean installing new packages onto a working system, not installing a new one from scratch
  305. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Oh, okay.
  306. # [21:43] <Philip`> (When installing from scratch, it does give you a root shell and expect you to do the stuff in http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml (or the more verbosely described version in other documentation))
  307. # [21:45] * AryehGregor prefers to stick with boring distributions and spend his time using software that lets you actually do useful things, like web browsers
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  309. # [21:49] <Philip`> Yeah, it's not generally time-efficient
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  340. # [23:34] <AryehGregor> The best part is packages where the configuration file has to be edited by hand in most cases but there's no separate file for the defaults, so if you install the package you'll almost surely modify the config file, and then it will conflict on every single upgrade.
  341. # [23:34] <AryehGregor> Examples: mysql, etckeeper.
  342. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> . . . rsnapshot. Because no one modifies the default /etc/rsnapshot.conf, right? That would be just silly!
  343. # [23:40] <zewt> better than distros that compile everything on install, as if that's a reasonable thing to do on a loaded server
  344. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> But think of what a great speedup you'll get from being able to use SSE4 instructions!
  345. # [23:44] <zewt> yeah, it makes file servers and http totally blaze
  346. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> Especially when your motherboard dies and you temporarily move the disk to another chassis to reduce downtime and it turns out the other CPU is slightly older and so your machine doesn't boot!
  347. # [23:44] <zewt> heh
  348. # [23:45] <zewt> i stopped using ubuntu after my last wouldn't-boot-after-upgrade failure
  349. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> I always managed to get it to boot after upgrade.
  350. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> Eventually.
  351. # [23:45] <paul_irish> I'm working with someone that wants to suggest EventTarget.on (as a method) .. what's the best venue for that proposal?
  352. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> To be fair, that's better than I can say for Windows.
  353. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> paul_irish, what would it do?
  354. # [23:45] <zewt> the upgrade wouldn't boot with the new kernel; i tried downgrading the kernel so i could try to fix it, and it turned out it also used a new grub (iirc) that wouldn't boot on the old kernel, they were interlocked
  355. # [23:46] <paul_irish> addEventListener mostly. probably could also get the opt-in delegation that has been discussed a little bit
  356. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> Oh, not booting on a new kernel, that's happened to me.
  357. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> Sometimes I've wound up booting o the kernel from the under-development version, or a kernel.org kernel.
  358. # [23:47] <annevk> paul_irish: www-dom
  359. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> s/ o / /
  360. # [23:47] <zewt> that's bad enough, but breaking every standard downgrade procedure by interlocking upgrades--that's just a poor distro
  361. # [23:47] <annevk> paul_irish: www-dom@w3.org that is
  362. # [23:47] <zewt> (went back to debian)
  363. # [23:47] <paul_irish> yup. kk thx annevk
  364. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> Hey, it's all about tradeoffs.
  365. # [23:47] <annevk> paul_irish: why not EventTarget.on.event.add() btw?
  366. # [23:47] <paul_irish> so much typing.
  367. # [23:48] <annevk> I guess it depends on what flexibility you want
  368. # [23:48] <paul_irish> yeah
  369. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> Would you prefer the latest version of everything, plus new shiny half-baked software applications that have had rigorous usability testing on all four of their features? Or a reliable, stable machine that is guaranteed to boot the very finest software from three years ago?
  370. # [23:48] <_bga> annevk :/
  371. # [23:49] <_bga> div.onClick._add(_fn)
  372. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Ubuntu is a bit flaky, but I prefer being able to use almost all of my software from the official package repos and not be missing much.
  373. # [23:49] <_bga> div.onClick._del(_fn)
  374. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> It's reportedly a lot more reliable than Fedora.
  375. # [23:49] <annevk> _bga: o_O
  376. # [23:49] * annevk is not sure what is going on
  377. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> (pretty much the only things I use not from the official repos are web browsers)
  378. # [23:49] <annevk> better go to bed while that is the case :)
  379. # [23:49] <annevk> nn
  380. # [23:50] <_bga> tomorrow
  381. # [23:50] <_bga> ok
  382. # [23:50] <_bga> good night annevk
  383. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Okay, time to try rebooting.
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  390. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> I have to hand it to Canonical.
  391. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> That is about the smoothest upgrade imaginable.
  392. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> (at least the reboot part of it)
  393. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> Too bad Unity is still broken, and now starting gnome-panel doesn't seem to work, so I can't actually figure out which XChat window is which without going through all of them one by one.
  394. # [23:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: They are telling you to level up and use screen + irssi
  395. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> I still have multiple browser windows and terminal windows open.
  396. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> No way to tell them apart.
  397. # [23:57] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-63-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: astearns)
  398. # [23:57] <finn_a> I wish I could use a local IRC client but for some reason it keeps disconnecting on me
  399. # [23:58] <finn_a> Webchat it is
  400. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> Okay, so gnome-panel is still around, it just doesn't work from Alt-F2 . . .
  401. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> Oh, /usr/local/bin, great.
  402. # Session Close: Mon Nov 21 00:00:00 2011

The end :)