/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 25 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:04] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you around?
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  197. # [01:10] <roc> can we forbid delinquent editors from posting new ideas to www-style?
  198. # [01:12] <roc> ("joke")
  199. # [01:21] <MikeSmith> heh
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  296. # [09:28] <annevk> having xhr in hg is sooo nice
  297. # [09:28] <annevk> having it be a single spec is real nice too
  298. # [09:28] <annevk> changing the spec is easy again
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  318. # [10:54] <benschwarz> I was just reminiscing over days gone by MikeSmith … http://twitter.com/#!/benschwarz/status/39891483897102336
  319. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> that don't loading for me
  320. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> due to me being in china
  321. # [10:56] <benschwarz> "Without @sideshowbarker, the WHATWG developer spec wouldn't have happened. Lets make that clear, this man is a legend." — Me, Feb 22
  322. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  323. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> famous all over town
  324. # [10:56] <benschwarz> oh snapple
  325. # [10:56] <benschwarz> https://plus.google.com/111991826926222544385/about
  326. # [10:57] <benschwarz> that picture, laying down
  327. # [10:57] <benschwarz> so good
  328. # [10:57] <benschwarz> haha
  329. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> no google+ here either!
  330. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> that's the one with the sign?
  331. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> unfortunately they moved the shop and they don't have that sign where anybody can lay down in front of it any more
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  333. # [11:00] <benschwarz> MikeSmith: what will I do in tokyo then?!
  334. # [11:00] <benschwarz> we'll get a html5 gang sign pic in front of that thing one day
  335. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> they still got the sign
  336. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> maybe we can get them to roll it out
  337. # [11:04] <benschwarz> I'm sure we can
  338. # [11:04] <benschwarz> Not planned to be in tokyo for a while… but I'm really yearning to return
  339. # [11:06] <hsivonen> wow. a longish thread about the meaning of <foo/> in HTML4 on www-validator. again. still. in 2011.
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  342. # [11:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: I would feel sorry for you if that wasn't so funny
  343. # [11:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: pointer?
  344. # [11:12] * zcorpan guesses http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2011Nov/0007.html
  345. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> yeah
  346. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> glad I skipped that one :)
  347. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> wonderfully intuitive "NET-enabling start-tag requires SHORTTAG YES" message the validator emits there
  348. # [11:13] * jgraham is glad that we have start tags to enable the net
  349. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> we need more specs like SGML
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  351. # [11:21] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: especially nice that the validator has stepped away from spec purity since html4's sgml decl says SHORTTAG YES
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  353. # [11:21] <zcorpan> but still has confusing messages
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  355. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> it still clings to spec purity in other ways
  356. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> like, reporting id=foo and id=FOO and duplicated IDs
  357. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> and not reporting e.g., <p right> as an error
  358. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> the SGML neckbeards were in a league of their own
  359. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> in other news, great entertainment value in Murata-san's bugzilla comments
  360. # [11:24] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com)
  361. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> or should i say "comment"
  362. # [11:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: you found the right thread
  363. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> because it's the same one he's made several times now
  364. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> www-validator is a pot of gold
  365. # [11:26] <zcorpan> most of the thread seems to discuss how to improve the message that says that the slash causes other confusing messages to be emitted
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  367. # [11:26] <zcorpan> instead of, i dunno, removing the confusing messages and emitting one unconfusing message
  368. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> heh
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  390. # [11:57] <annevk> okay
  391. # [11:58] <annevk> so the outstanding feature requests for XMLHttpRequest are
  392. # [11:58] <annevk> redirects
  393. # [11:58] <annevk> "chunked-text"
  394. # [11:58] <annevk> "chunked-arraybuffer"
  395. # [11:58] <annevk> "json"
  396. # [11:58] <annevk> "stream"
  397. # [11:58] <annevk> and the thread on WHATWG
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  407. # [12:47] <hsivonen> hmm. Niels Leenheer (the html5test.com guy) doesn't make it too easy to find his email address on the site
  408. # [12:47] <hsivonen> maybe I should just tweet
  409. # [12:48] <jgraham> Yeah it is pretty annoying; there are bugs in the tests
  410. # [12:48] <Neocortex> whois says it's info@sights.nl
  411. # [12:49] <Neocortex> http://sights.nl/en/
  412. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Neocortex: thanks
  413. # [12:51] <hsivonen> yay. located his email address in my email archives
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  422. # [13:13] <hsivonen> what's the best-maintained diveintohtml5 version today?
  423. # [13:14] <hsivonen> .info? the html5doctor version?
  424. # [13:14] <hsivonen> does either of them actually have fixes?
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  427. # [13:29] <oal> I came across this http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid-align/#grid-concepts Is it supported in any browsers yet?
  428. # [13:31] <hsivonen> oal: IE10 might have prefixed support
  429. # [13:33] <oal> Great, I hope the other's follow
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  458. # [15:07] <kennyluck> oal, there's announcement on webkit-dev that WebKit developers just started to implement it. I guess it'll take a month or so to have something to play with.
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  460. # [15:13] <oal> kennyluck: Cool. I've read ~half of this now as well (http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/). Do you know if the display: "abc" style will be supported as well?
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  467. # [15:40] <kennyluck> oal, that I don't know. Neither of these is under heavy discussion on www-style, and I think css3-layout is probably less popular somehow. You'll be encourage in this channel to use the up-to-date version http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-layout/ by the way. :p
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  469. # [15:41] <oal> Oh, thanks. I haven't really ever spent much time on the w3 sites before :P
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  492. # [17:03] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, timeless: AFAICT, all non-Gecko engines just always have .length = 0 for IDL operations. This is one of the few things from WebIDL that IE9 doesn't follow. Gecko's behavior is clearly more correct, though.
  493. # [17:04] * AryehGregor doesn't know what varargs are supposed to do to .length, offhand
  494. # [17:04] * AryehGregor has just ignored varargs so far in his WebIDL tests
  495. # [17:05] <AryehGregor> Also, when I say "all non-Gecko engines" I don't include Safari, if that's different from Chrome. I don't bother testing it separately, as a rule.
  496. # [17:05] <AryehGregor> So maybe Safari is right but Chrome is wrong.
  497. # [17:06] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I'm around now, on and off.
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  511. # [17:33] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  512. # [17:34] <timeless> AryehGregor: the gecko behavior for xpidl stuff is length = the number of non optional arguments in the case where there is no overloading
  513. # [17:34] <timeless> in cases where there's overloading it depends on how it's implemented
  514. # [17:34] <AryehGregor> I think WebIDL requires that it's the maximum number of arguments you could ever legitimately pass to it, ignoring varargs.
  515. # [17:34] <timeless> generally overloading is implemented by declaring 0 arguments and having the native code deal w/ it
  516. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Overloading in XPIDL?
  517. # [17:34] <AryehGregor> But the algorithm is complicated.
  518. # [17:35] <timeless> Ms2ger: well overloading is technically *outside* of xpidl
  519. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> Right
  520. # [17:35] <timeless> but from the perspective of things who are expecting different possible inbound arguments
  521. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> IIUC, it's max{number of arguments of f, counting optional but not varargs | f is an operation on the given interface with the given identifier}.
  522. # [17:35] <timeless> perhaps i shouldn't say 0 arguments but "however many common arguments there are"
  523. # [17:35] <timeless> which is typically 0..
  524. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> Recently we've been using jsvals, fwiw
  525. # [17:36] <timeless> Ms2ger: yeah, i know
  526. # [17:36] <timeless> but that's recent stuff
  527. # [17:36] <timeless> i'm a historian
  528. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> :)
  529. # [17:36] * AryehGregor isn't sure offhand how overloading works if one interface extends another and they share a method name but with different arguments
  530. # [17:36] <timeless> stuff that hasn't been dead and buried for a while doesn't interest me
  531. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, is that allowed?
  532. # [17:36] <timeless> AryehGregor: in gecko, classically, "poorly" :)
  533. # [17:36] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, possibly not.
  534. # [17:36] <timeless> in gecko you're allowed to do:
  535. # [17:36] <timeless> foo.InterfaceName.method()
  536. # [17:37] <timeless> foo.OtherInterface.method()
  537. # [17:37] <timeless> but that only works if the interface isn't a DOMClassInfo :)
  538. # [17:37] <timeless> (more or less)
  539. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> I think Mozilla managed to get that thrown out of WebIDL
  540. # [17:37] <timeless> the right answer should be that it should be forbidden
  541. # [17:37] <AryehGregor> You can always do InterfaceName.prototype.method.call(foo).
  542. # [17:37] <timeless> if you need a new method with different arguments, get your own method name and stop confusing poor users
  543. # [17:38] <timeless> AryehGregor: actually
  544. # [17:38] <timeless> does that always work?
  545. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> Why not?
  546. # [17:38] <timeless> window1.InterfaceName.prototype.method.call(window2.foo)
  547. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> That won't work.
  548. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> In Gecko, it might very well work
  549. # [17:38] <timeless> right, so your example doesn't work either :)
  550. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> But we're the odd one out
  551. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> It's not supposed to work.
  552. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> Because the interface prototype you're using is not the prototype of the object you're talking about.
  553. # [17:39] <timeless> AryehGregor: but i don't think there's a convenient way to calculate window2 from foo
  554. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> No, there's no way at all.
  555. # [17:39] <timeless> which makes calculating InterfaceName hard
  556. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> I've been told that's a deliberate design feature.
  557. # [17:39] <timeless> and thus your sample code is essentially impossible to do correctly
  558. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> Well, not quite.
  559. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> You can always use Object.getPrototypeOf.
  560. # [17:39] <timeless> i think you can try to chase the prototype chain
  561. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> Or __proto__ :)
  562. # [17:39] <timeless> Ms2ger: shh
  563. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> I work with standards, __proto__ doesn't exist!
  564. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> I mean, it does, but I can't use it in tests, because it's not standard . . .
  565. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> Can we sneak Web ES requirements into HTML or something?
  566. # [17:40] <timeless> out-of-scope
  567. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Maybe WebIDL can sneak them into the ES binding.
  568. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Or, like, maybe ES could actually require them.
  569. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> srsly.
  570. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> Let's do that
  571. # [17:43] <AryehGregor> Nobody's seriously considering getting rid of __proto__, are they?
  572. # [17:43] <AryehGregor> So why isn't it in ES?
  573. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> Sure thing
  574. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> IIRC
  575. # [17:43] <AryehGregor> They are?
  576. # [17:43] <timeless> i thought es was trying to get rid of the ability to mutate __proto__
  577. # [17:43] <AryehGregor> Oh, well, that I can understand.
  578. # [17:43] <AryehGregor> In ES5 the prototype is fixed at object creation time, right?
  579. # [17:43] <AryehGregor> That seems reasonable enough to me.
  580. # [17:43] * timeless hasn't read it
  581. # [17:43] <timeless> but i think that's the goal
  582. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> Mutating it could cause all kinds of problems, although they're probably resolvable somehow.
  583. # [17:44] <timeless> it's really annoying from a hackery perspective
  584. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> I'd ask, but people are eating turkeys
  585. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> That was yesterday.
  586. # [17:44] * timeless wants a turkey
  587. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> Unless it's leftover turkeys.
  588. # [17:44] <timeless> all i have is a bike w/ a flat tire
  589. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> That sounds less edible.
  590. # [17:44] <timeless> and some grease
  591. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> You could try the grease?
  592. # [17:44] <timeless> it isn't designed for cooking
  593. # [17:44] <jgraham> Why would you want a turkey
  594. # [17:44] <timeless> and i know where it's been
  595. # [17:44] <jgraham> They have little to nothing to recommend them
  596. # [17:44] <timeless> jgraham: it's edible and reminds me of home?
  597. # [17:45] <jgraham> Apart from being relatively cheap per unit mass
  598. # [17:45] <timeless> jgraham: ben franklin is little to nothing?
  599. # [17:45] * jgraham doesn't know what ben franklin has to do with it but wouldn't eat slugs just because einstein liked them
  600. # [17:45] <timeless> ... For the Truth the Turkey is in Comparison a much more respectable Bird, and withal a true original Native of America . . . He is besides, though a little vain & silly, a Bird of Courage, and would not hesitate to attack a Grenadier of the British Guards who should presume to invade his Farm Yard with a red Coat on.
  601. # [17:45] <jgraham> (note: he didn't. probably)
  602. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Maybe if you cook them by having lightning hit them?
  603. # [17:46] <timeless> what is the world coming to that people don't know his stance on turkeys?
  604. # [17:46] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Turkey#Benjamin_Franklin_and_the_US_national_bird
  605. # [17:47] <timeless> in context, this is what he had to say about the eagle:
  606. # [17:47] <timeless> ... For my own part I wish the Bald Eagle had not been chosen the Representative of our Country. He is a Bird of bad moral character. He does not get his Living honestly. You may have seen him perched on some dead Tree near the River, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the Labour of the Fishing Hawk; and when that diligent Bird has at length taken a Fish, and is bearing it to his Nest
  607. # [17:47] <timeless> for the Support of his Mate and young Ones, the Bald Eagle pursues him and takes it from him.
  608. # [17:48] <zewt> sounds like a pretty apt characterization of our country
  609. # [17:48] <timeless> too true
  610. # [17:48] <timeless> so it was probably a fitting choice
  611. # [17:48] <timeless> but oh well
  612. # [17:48] <timeless> anyway, don't say you didn't ever learn anything about Franklin from #whatwg :)
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  616. # [17:48] <timeless> (or Turkeys or Eagles for that matter)
  617. # [17:49] <jarek> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-animations/ defines keyframes rule as:
  618. # [17:49] <jarek> '@keyframes' IDENT '{' keyframes-blocks '}';
  619. # [17:49] <jarek> shouldn't there be STRING instead of IDENT?
  620. # [17:49] <jgraham> I think it would be a more apt characterisation of your country if the eagle sold the fishing hawk on the value of hard work as part of the "American Dream"
  621. # [17:49] <timeless> lol
  622. # [17:50] <timeless> jgraham: this is more about foreign afairs
  623. # [17:50] <timeless> i'm sure we have an example fitting your american dream somewhere
  624. # [17:51] <timeless> although the only thing that comes to mind is the praying mantis
  625. # [17:51] <zewt> jarek: might not matter here, but i assume you should be reading http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-animations/
  626. # [17:51] <zewt> beware of "TR" in w3 URLs
  627. # [17:52] <timeless> yeah, T means "almost certainly out of date, this document published for lawyers, if you aren't one, steer clear"
  628. # [17:52] <timeless> s/T/TR/
  629. # [17:52] <jarek> zewt: thanks, the dev spec uses IDENT
  630. # [17:52] <jarek> so maybe it uses different definitions of tokens?
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  632. # [17:54] <timeless> IDENT comes from http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/grammar.html#scanner
  633. # [17:54] * timeless thinks
  634. # [17:54] * timeless grumbles sorry about the CSS2 ref
  635. # [17:56] <timeless> jarek: why would you want STRING instead of IDENT?
  636. # [17:56] <timeless> STRING requires one to have "..." or '...'
  637. # [17:56] <timeless> which is at least moderately annoying
  638. # [17:56] <jarek> timeless: yeah, there are many examples on the web that look like this:
  639. # [17:56] <jarek> @keyframes "myAnimation" {}
  640. # [17:57] <timeless> interesting
  641. # [17:57] <jarek> no, wait... actually I have found it only in the old spec :)
  642. # [17:57] <timeless> could i convince you to collect urls for them (possibly sorted by pagerank) and send them to www-style?
  643. # [17:57] <timeless> oh
  644. # [17:57] <jarek> ok, this makes sense now
  645. # [17:57] <timeless> so old content that hasn't evolved
  646. # [17:57] <timeless> yay
  647. # [17:57] <timeless> the dead web, that's where i come in
  648. # [17:58] <timeless> except i don't do much css archeology right now
  649. # [17:58] <timeless> @keyframes is too new to be buried and studied by archeologists :)
  650. # [17:59] <timeless> jarek: do they really use @keyframes and not @-vendor-keyframes?
  651. # [17:59] <jarek> timeless: I need to parse both of them
  652. # [18:00] <timeless> do the web a favor and don't support string
  653. # [18:01] * timeless wishes browser vendors would HTTP POST /validator-feedback <payload>
  654. # [18:01] <timeless> "Dear site, this is an automated message listing content errors which resulted in things not working the way you expected"
  655. # [18:01] <timeless> ...
  656. # [18:02] <timeless> w3schools doesn't think ie has an -ms-keyframes, but css-tricks does
  657. # [18:03] * timeless can't find any high ranked site that mentions the STRING form
  658. # [18:04] <timeless> how are you finding these bogus sites?
  659. # [18:04] * timeless doesn't know how to ask google for such content
  660. # [18:05] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5B32629C.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  661. # [18:06] <jarek> opening http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-box/ crashes Chrome
  662. # [18:13] <jarek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid/ says:
  663. # [18:13] <jarek> "This specification is not being actively maintained, and should not be used as a guide for implementations. It may be revived in the future, but for now should be considered obsolete."
  664. # [18:13] <jarek> I thought that Microsoft was pushing CSS grids very hard
  665. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> css3-grid is a Bertism, afaik
  666. # [18:14] <jarek> also, the last update is from 26 October 2011 and IE10 has already implemented it, why is it considered obsolete?
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  668. # [18:20] <astearns> jarek: look at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid-align/
  669. # [18:21] <jarek> astearns: thanks
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  671. # [18:29] <jarek> does http://dev.w3.org/csswg/ contain always the latest versions of the spec?
  672. # [18:30] <astearns> yes - that's where the editors check in
  673. # [18:31] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
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  675. # [18:33] <jarek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ruby/ is older than http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ruby/
  676. # [18:34] <jarek> was it renamed to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/?
  677. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> No
  678. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> css3ruby is a bit of an odd one out
  679. # [18:35] * Joins: nielsle_ (~nielsle@3239059-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  680. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> Also, the date on tr/ is the publication date; doesn't mean it has been changed from the ED
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  683. # [18:43] <zewt> would be nice if they'd at least find a way to get google to stop returning TR results before ED
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  685. # [18:43] <zewt> don't know if there's any way to do that short of blocking the TR from being indexed completely
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  687. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> rel=canonical?
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  689. # [18:52] <jarek> where is the spec that was previously under https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html ?
  690. # [18:52] <jarek> I mean the new CSS and SVG filters
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  723. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> zewt, I filed a bug on HTML asking for exactly that.
  724. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> I thought it was FIXED, but seems not?
  725. # [20:39] * AryehGregor can't find it
  726. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Hixie, do you remember me ever filing a bug suggesting you add <meta name=robots content=noindex> to the TR/ drafts?
  727. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> I thought I did.
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  744. # [22:31] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i fixed it, but we haven't republished since so it hasn't taken effect
  745. # [22:31] <Hixie> AryehGregor: my ping earlier was for some bug, i commented instead
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  750. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, yt?
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  775. # Session Close: Sat Nov 26 00:00:00 2011

The end :)