/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-01 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Dec 01 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <jgraham> So much so it should probably be deleted :p
# [00:00] <gsnedders> But certainly now it is rare
# [00:00] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, the Wikipedia article suggests it was condemned by the early Catholic Church, but some Protestants reconsidered it.
# [00:00] <AryehGregor> The Bible doesn't actually say anything against it, so it's natural that the Protestants would want to throw out the restriction -- sola scriptura, right?
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# [00:02] <jgraham> I am pretty sure pretty sure there are examples of cultures that practice what I will call "cooperative" or many-to-many polygamy
# [00:03] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Depends very much on the Protestant sect
# [00:04] <AryehGregor> Polyandry of any kind is very uncommon, because a) women don't get any more children (or any other obvious benefit) by marrying multiple men, and b) people won't know who their father is, which will (among other things) discourage fathers from supporting children who may or may not be theirs.
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# [00:04] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, polygyny is pretty common, because it allows wealthy men to have more children while also supporting their multiple wives to higher standards than they'd have gotten as the sole wife of a poorer person.
# [00:04] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Many Protestants broke off from the Catholic Church at different times, often for specific reasons, so only changed what affected their specific reason to break off
# [00:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: sola scriptura only happened in a relatively small number of cases, though many smaller sects joined with ones who had been through more radical transformations
# [00:07] <jgraham> AryehGregor: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101110161930.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily:+Latest+Science+News%29&utm_content=Google+Reader claims that in some regions it has been common
# [00:08] <AryehGregor> Well, it's far less common than polygyny, anyway.
# [00:08] <AryehGregor> Polygyny is more the rule than the exception, as far as I know.
# [00:10] <gsnedders> Most of the polyamourous couples I know are polyandric (well, not truly, as they aren't married)
# [00:10] <othermaciej> polyandry tends to occur in societies with a severe shortage of women (e.g. ones that severely undervalue daughters and therefore practice female infanticide)
# [00:10] <jgraham> Note that for women there is a benefit to having children by multiple partners; you are increasing the genetic diversity of your offspring
# [00:11] <jgraham> Which is an "obvious benefit"
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> Not really.
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> It doesn't increase your expected number of offspring much, if at all.
# [00:11] <jgraham> From an evolutionary point of view it is
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> (I mean total descendants)
# [00:11] <jgraham> Sure it does
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> How?
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> If some plague kills everyone without gene X, you shouldn't care whether one of your two husbands has gene X, or if you only have one husband with a 50% chance of having gene X.
# [00:12] <jgraham> If you pick one partner who happens to give you children that are all infertile you get 0 grandchildren. If you pick two partners and only one has that problem you get some grandchildren
# [00:13] <AryehGregor> Look at the expected values, though.
# [00:13] <AryehGregor> If you pick one partner and they have a 50% chance of their children all being infertile, it's the same expected number of grandchildren as if you marry two men and one has the problem.
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, if you have only one husband and he's confident all your children are his, he'll probably be a lot happier to support them, which makes a big difference.
# [00:14] <mkanat> In fact, I'd have to guess (without doing the math) that you'll have better generic diversity across and entire race with monogamy.
# [00:14] <mkanat> *genetic
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> Especially in agricultural societies, where men have all the wealth and women need all the help they can get from their husbands.
# [00:15] <jgraham> You never care about "across the entire race"
# [00:15] <jgraham> You only optimise for your own grandchildren
# [00:16] * jgraham is too tired to reason through the maths at the moment
# [00:16] <jgraham> and should indeed be sleeping
# [00:17] <jgraham> But it would seem surprising if having more genetic diversity in your offspring was a bad thing
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> I don't think genetic diversity matters for this purpose.
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> It should be all the same whether you actually have diversity, or you have random-picked homogeneity.
# [00:19] <jgraham> I am going to try the sleeping thing :)
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# [00:30] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, polythings can be common if they are not exclusive.
# [00:32] <erlehmann> >"In some Amazonian cultures, it was bad manners for a husband to be jealous of his wife's extramarital partners,"
# [00:32] <erlehmann> in fact, i consider jealousy a bad character trait
# [00:33] <gicode> AryehGregor: Do you know if the DOM4 spec for Range will eventually include getBoundingClientRect and/or the mutation APIs like modify/extend that are part of Selection?
# [00:33] <AryehGregor> gicode, I think getBoundingClientRect might already be specced elsewhere.
# [00:33] * AryehGregor looks
# [00:34] <AryehGregor> CSSOM View.
# [00:34] <AryehGregor> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-range-interface
# [00:34] <AryehGregor> extend() doesn't make any obvious sense for Range, because there's no concept of a focus or anchor.
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# [00:34] <AryehGregor> So I don't see how you'd figure out which direction to extend.
# [00:35] <AryehGregor> modify() is an unholy mess and I'll be grateful if anyone can come up with a usable spec for that as a Selection method, forget about Range.
# [00:35] <gicode> AryehGregor: Thanks, I wasn't aware of that section in the CSS spec
# [00:36] <AryehGregor> CSSOM View, not CSS.
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# [00:37] <gicode> AryehGregor: Sorry, CSSOM View :-) For the modify/extend, the main thing I am looking for is an implementation of Unicode Text Segmentation
# [00:37] <AryehGregor> That's not relevant to extend().
# [00:38] <AryehGregor> For modify(), I'm pretty sure browsers currently implement it using voodoo magic, not Unicode Text Segmentation.
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# [00:39] <gicode> Yay, magic! Thanks for the heads up.
# [00:40] <AryehGregor> That's why I stopped trying to spec it.
# [00:40] <AryehGregor> WebKit made it up and Gecko copied it. I didn't look, but I suspect WebKit reused whatever internal code they happened to have lying around that did vaguely the right thing.
# [00:40] <rniwa> gicode: what about unicode text segmentation?
# [00:40] <AryehGregor> Getting it correct would probably require a great deal of work, because there are going to be like four billion subtle special cases where you want it to do magic.
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# [00:41] <AryehGregor> It depends on layout, too, which is fun.
# [00:41] <gicode> rniwa: Specifically iterating over words (rather than space delimited tokens)
# [00:41] <rniwa> gicode: modify works on visual text but all you get is DOM-based selection
# [00:41] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: IIRC, we should use Unicode Text Segmentation
# [00:41] <AryehGregor> Moving one line down needs to figure out where the cursor is visually and where it will go.
# [00:41] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, does Opera implement modify()?
# [00:41] <rniwa> gicode: oh, sure, you can do that using modify.
# [00:41] <gsnedders> Or am I forgetting things?
# [00:42] <rniwa> gicode: selection.modify will be much more useful once we can just instantiate it
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# [00:42] <rniwa> gicode: e.g. (new Selection).modify(~~)
# [00:42] <AryehGregor> The definition of "word" varies by platform, as well as language.
# [00:42] <rniwa> AryehGregor: right, that's why we need a method like modify in order to iterator over
# [00:43] <rniwa> AryehGregor: we should add a constructor to DOMSelection so that ppl can just instantiate it
# [00:43] <gicode> rniwa: If you instantiate one, what is it selecting?
# [00:43] <rniwa> AryehGregor: modify and some other methods become much more useful
# [00:43] <rniwa> gicode: nothing
# [00:43] <rniwa> gicode: it's an non-visible object like range
# [00:43] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Okay, no
# [00:44] <rniwa> gsnedders: in CJK, you can't reliably separate words
# [00:44] <rniwa> gsnedders: since there are no word seperators
# [00:44] <rniwa> gsnedders: you need to use dictionary-based heuristics
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# [00:47] <AryehGregor> rniwa, per spec, the interface is called Selection, not DOMSelection, BTW.
# [00:47] <gsnedders> rniwa: Right, but USA #29 provides non-locale aware algorithms
# [00:47] <AryehGregor> (there's no window.Selection in WebKit for some reason)
# [00:47] <rniwa> gsnedders: I don't think it's really useful
# [00:47] <gsnedders> *UAX
# [00:48] <rniwa> gsnedders: in general, unicode ppl don't get CJK.
# [00:48] <rniwa> especially C and J
# [00:48] <rniwa> gsnedders: there are quite few Unicode-haters in Japan at least.
# [00:48] <gicode> AryehGregor: In Chromium, Range seems to have all the selection APIs
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> gicode, that's weird.
# [00:49] <AryehGregor> Uncaught TypeError: Object has no method 'extend'
# [00:49] <AryehGregor> Doesn't seem like it to me.
# [00:50] <gicode> AryehGregor: Ah, yea. I saw expand and got confused.
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> WebKit has lots of made-up nonstandard methods on Range and Selection. It's annoying.
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> Some of them aren't useful, either, like setBaseAndExtent().
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> (= collapse() followed by extend())
# [00:54] <rniwa> AryehGregor: so... I've recently learned that base != anchor and extent != focus
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> Really?
# [00:54] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yeah
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> That's even more confusing.
# [00:54] <rniwa> AryehGregor: when you double-click a word
# [00:54] <rniwa> AryehGregor: base and extent stays at where you clicked
# [00:54] <rniwa> AryehGregor: whereas focus/anchor will be at the end and the beginning of the word
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> I'd file a bug asking that this nonstandard stuff be removed, but somehow I suspect the answer would be "no, lots of WebKit-specific stuff depends on it, we should just standardize it instead".
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# [00:56] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yeah...
# [00:56] <rniwa> AryehGregor: but nobody knows the difference
# [00:56] <rniwa> AryehGregor: so maybe we can at least hide it from Web-facing API
# [00:56] <AryehGregor> That would be nice.
# [00:56] <AryehGregor> It seems like unnecessary complication.
# [00:57] <rniwa> AryehGregor: I tend to agree but then I'm not the one who added that feature
# [00:57] <rniwa> so we probably need to talk to whoever knows about this stuff
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> If Gecko is willing to remove multi-Range Selections, WebKit should be willing to make sacrifices too. :)
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# [01:03] <rniwa> AryehGregor: I tend to agree but then webkit has a lot of companies involved so it's hard for me to make a call.
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# [01:03] <AryehGregor> Right.
# [01:04] <rniwa> AryehGregor: we can probably start from spitting out console messages
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# [01:41] <zewt> rniwa: i just wish that if Japanese authors are going to dig in their heels and keep using SJIS (or EUC-JP or ISO-2022-JP), they'd at least get their charset declarations correct
# [01:41] <rniwa> zewt: I think so.
# [01:42] <rniwa> zewt: although Shift_JIS is never really used
# [01:42] <zewt> instead of the current nonsense where japanese pages very often end up broken on all non-japanese systems
# [01:42] <rniwa> zewt: what we call Shift_JIS is almost always Code Page 932
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# [01:43] <zewt> windows's "extensions"--yet another reason to use utf-8 :P
# [01:44] <rniwa> zewt: the problem is that utf-8 didn't get right either
# [01:44] <zewt> what's frustrating is how the current situation leads to pages working for their authors, and most of their viewers (eg. users in japan see japanese pages OK), but are broken for the rest of the world
# [01:44] <rniwa> zewt: a lot of japanese/chinese scholars are really upset about how UCS-2 assignes the same code point for completely different characters
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# [01:44] <rniwa> zewt: right.
# [01:45] <rniwa> zewt: on the other hand, it's pretty insulting to be imposed upon an encoding that can't encode your character properly
# [01:45] <zewt> eh, utf-8 round-trips other encodings, so i don't know how there could be anything sjis (etc) could represent that utf-8 can not
# [01:45] <rniwa> zewt: how would you feel if your bank switched to start using utf-8 text encoding so that it starts using wrong characters for your names?
# [01:46] <zewt> i'm not convinced that's possible :)
# [01:47] <zewt> (with the caveat that you have to get your lang declarations right, to avoid rendering eg. japanese characters with chinese fonts)
# [01:47] <gavinc> rniwa: Eh? UTF-8 got it wrong? You mean Unicode got it wrong? as another encoding for Unicode won't have different characters
# [01:48] <zewt> if there's any character in SJIS that doesn't have a direct round-trip equivalent in utf-8, that'd be a major unicode bug, afaik
# [01:48] <rniwa> gavinc: I meant unicode
# [01:49] <zewt> if there's any character that isn't displayed identically in utf-8 (with the correct language selected) as in sjis, i'd be interested in knowing what it is, and why it's different
# [01:49] <gavinc> so there exist japanese characters for which there is no unicode code point?
# [01:49] <gavinc> Kanji yes?
# [01:49] <rniwa> gavinc: well, they probably have all code points but the problem is that it's shared with chinese characters
# [01:49] <rniwa> gavinc: yes
# [01:49] <rniwa> zewt: even shift_jis doesn't contain all characters we need.
# [01:50] <zewt> rniwa: sharing with chinese characters is okay, again you just have to make sure the browser is picking the right language
# [01:50] <gavinc> rniwa: Ah yes, the character is the same but two cultures define different meanings
# [01:50] <zewt> gavinc: it's the weird clash between "character" and "glyph"
# [01:50] <rniwa> gavinc: they're different chracters
# [01:50] <rniwa> gavinc: do you suppose greek alpha is identical to latin a because they share the same origin?
# [01:50] <zewt> rniwa: again, i'd like an example
# [01:51] <gavinc> sorry, glyph
# [01:51] <gavinc> meant glyph!
# [01:51] <rniwa> anyways, i'm not in a position to discuss about this :)
# [01:51] * gavinc puts on encoding unicode brain
# [01:51] <zewt> rniwa: i think you're wrong :)
# [01:51] <rniwa> there are much more qualified people to talk about it
# [01:51] <gavinc> Yeah, pulling bits of it out my memory
# [01:51] <gavinc> Greek has in fact some of the same political issues in unicode :(
# [01:52] <zewt> if you take sjis/euc-jp/iso-2022-jp text, convert to utf-8 and set lang=jp, it should always be rendered the same; if there are examples where this isn't the case, then I'd really like to know what they are
# [01:52] <gavinc> Ah! Wikipedia will help you zewt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification ;)
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# [01:52] <zewt> gavinc: i know what han unification is; my point is that lang is the disambiguator
# [01:54] <rniwa> zewt: http://www.shuiren.org/chuden/teach/code/main8.htm#AdvantageDisadvantage
# [01:56] <rniwa> the problem with unicode is that they assigned characters with different shapes, lines, etc... to the same code point
# [01:56] <rniwa> even though they're not just aesthetic issues
# [01:57] <rniwa> e.g. you can't interchange them in handwriting because they're different characters
# [01:58] <zewt> rniwa: but the language attribute of the content tells it which glyph to use.
# [01:58] <rniwa> zewt: that would mean that you can't mix chinese names and japanese names in the same context
# [01:58] <rniwa> zewt: you have to specify the language to make any sense
# [01:59] <zewt> sure you can: <span lang="jp">text</span> <span lang="zh">text2</span>
# [01:59] <zewt> and besides, you can't do that *at all* with legacy encodings
# [02:00] <zewt> http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20utf-8.html http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20sjis.html http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20big5.html works fine
# [02:00] <zewt> (used zh-TW since the glyph difference is more pronounced)
# [02:00] <AryehGregor> Could we define non-BMP characters that mirror all the BMP CJK glyphs but with the language predetermined?
# [02:00] <AryehGregor> That would probably just confuse everyone even more . . .
# [02:01] <rniwa> zewt: apparently chrome doesn't support it :( it looks all the same
# [02:01] * rniwa is annoyed
# [02:01] <AryehGregor> Likewise.
# [02:01] <zewt> that'd be a massive chrome bug, unless I'm specifying something wrong
# [02:01] <zewt> (or both could be true)
# [02:02] <zewt> works fine in IE *8*
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# [02:02] <rniwa> zewt: firefox doesn't get it right either
# [02:02] <zewt> (and FF8, which I tested with first)
# [02:02] <gavinc> is there an img reference too?
# [02:02] <rniwa> zewt: this might be a bug on Mac...
# [02:02] <zewt> rniwa: you may not have both Japanese and Chinese fonts installed, in which case it'll probably fall back to the one you do have
# [02:02] <zewt> however, i can confirm it's not working for me in Chrome
# [02:03] <zewt> (windows, with both font sets installed)
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# [02:03] <rniwa> zewt: I have both Japanese / Chinese IMEs installed so that's hard to believe
# [02:03] <gavinc> zewt: screen shot of what it -should- look like?
# [02:03] <zewt> one sec
# [02:03] <rniwa> gavinc: the box inside the upper box should be on the different sides
# [02:04] <rniwa> gavinc: see http://www.shuiren.org/chuden/teach/code/main8.htm#AdvantageDisadvantage
# [02:04] <zewt> http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20expected.png
# [02:04] <rniwa> gavinc: in JIS, it should be on the right.
# [02:04] <rniwa> gavinc: in GB, it should be on the left.
# [02:04] <rniwa> gavinc: in BIG5 it should be on the right but the bottom part should be simplified
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# [02:05] <gavinc> heh, so anyone else have the box in the top box on the LEFT? and not even on the right at all?
# [02:05] <rniwa> gavinc: need traditional chinese font.
# [02:05] <rniwa> gavinc: and I don't think zewt specified it to be traditional
# [02:05] <rniwa> zewt: he probably used simplified chinese
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# [02:06] <zewt> i used zh-TW, because it's easier to distinguish from the JP glyph
# [02:06] <rniwa> zewt, gavinc: see, the problem is that it's so hard to use this thing.
# [02:06] <zewt> rniwa: oddly, I see the JP glyph on all three on the shuiren.org page
# [02:06] <rniwa> zewt, gavinc: if we had a different code point, it just works fine.
# [02:06] <gavinc> rniwa: yeah, I've been convinced.
# [02:06] <rniwa> zewt: hehe, it's probably a browser bug
# [02:07] <rniwa> I feel like this is a simialr issue to bidi
# [02:07] <zewt> rniwa: "see" but you're changing the argument :) these are browser issues (bad ones, to be sure; this should be working reliably years and years ago), but it's not unicode's fault
# [02:07] <rniwa> it's possible in theory but impossible in practice
# [02:07] <zewt> uh, no, not at all
# [02:08] <rniwa> zewt: the fact you're the only one seeing the correct glyph suggests to me that it's not working, is it?
# [02:08] <zewt> for authors there's exactly one step: stick lang=ja (or zh-TW or zh-CN) around your content (probably on <body>)
# [02:08] <rniwa> zewt: but the problem is that it doesn't work in many cases.
# [02:08] <zewt> so it should be fixed; it's always worked for me
# [02:09] <rniwa> zewt: what's the point of a spec. if it doesn't work on most implementations
# [02:09] <zewt> works fine in FF8 and IE
# [02:09] <gavinc> On Windows
# [02:09] <rniwa> zewt: maybe this is an issue with mac then
# [02:09] <gavinc> FF8 does not look right on Linux
# [02:09] <zewt> and Opera
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# [02:11] <zewt> hmm, Chrome does render the suiren.org page correctly
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# [02:11] <rniwa> zewt, gavinc: similarly, we have the opposite problem as pointed on http://www.shuiren.org/chuden/teach/code/main8.htm#AdvantageDisadvantage
# [02:11] <zewt> i bet that's because of the separate font specifier, though
# [02:11] <zewt> rniwa: executive summary would be helpful; it would take me several minutes to read this :)
# [02:11] <rniwa> gavinc, zewt: 為 and 爲 are just new/old glyphs for the same character but they're assigned to different code points
# [02:12] <gavinc> 骨 does look right on shuiren btw
# [02:12] <zewt> <- can struggle through gradeschool spoken JP, but reading it isn't going to happen
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# [02:12] <rniwa> I'll leave the rest to unicode experts from tokyo
# [02:12] <rniwa> but i'm bitter about UCS-2 in general.
# [02:13] <zewt> chrome getting this wrong makes me upset; it's the sort of bug that'll set unicode-in-CJK-countries back by years
# [02:14] <rniwa> zewt: yeah, I should probably file a bug about this.
# [02:14] <gavinc> zewt: Chrome shows the WRONG thing for me on shuiren, where FF does the right thing
# [02:14] <rniwa> it's super annoying
# [02:15] <zewt> rniwa: please do (I would, but I expect a webkit report will get more attention)
# [02:15] <zewt> also I wonder if this is a Chrome problem or a WebKit problem
# [02:15] <rniwa> zewt: are you on windows?
# [02:15] <zewt> yeah
# [02:15] <rniwa> zewt: because it works perfectly fine on mac.
# [02:15] <zewt> in chrome or safari?
# [02:15] <rniwa> zewt: both
# [02:16] <rniwa> zewt: it'll be super helpful if you could check safari as well
# [02:16] <zewt> will need to fire up my VM with safari in it; one sec
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# [02:24] <zewt> eh, nothing is working right in my VM, not even the big5-encoded one
# [02:24] <zewt> they're all showing the JP glyph
# [02:24] <zewt> (XP, same on every browser I've tried)
# [02:24] <rniwa> zewt: :(
# [02:25] <rniwa> zewt: sounds like you don't have Eastern Asian language support on your Windows?
# [02:25] <zewt> it looks like XP installs all CJK languages as a unit ("install files for east asian languages"), so installed fonts should be a problem
# [02:25] <zewt> rniwa: if they weren't installed then the JP glyph wouldn't work either
# [02:25] <rniwa> zewt: oh they all defaults to JP font?
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# [02:26] <zewt> yeah, even big5 shows the top one in http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20expected.png
# [02:26] <zewt> the fonts are there; i can see one of the ZH ones if I select the NSimSun font in Notepad
# [02:27] <zewt> i guess i'll install safari natively instead of in this old XP VM
# [02:27] <zewt> strange, though
# [02:28] <zewt> (and so nobody's confused, this is unrelated--the problem happens with the legacy encodings, too)
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# [02:29] <zewt> this is fascinating: the Safari installer gave me the option to not auto-updated in XP, but that option seems to be mysteriously not present in 7
# [02:30] <zewt> WHAT THE HELL
# [02:30] <zewt> okay safari is on my software blacklist (it just played loud music when it launched)
# [02:31] <zewt> that is not okay
# [02:33] <zewt> rniwa: safari is showing the JP glyph in all cases, as far as I can see
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# [02:34] <zewt> including big5
# [02:34] <rniwa> zewt: okay, it's probably webkit issue then
# [02:34] <zewt> rniwa: does big5 look wrong to you, too?
# [02:35] <zewt> that is, http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20big5.html, which shows the zh-TW glyph for me
# [02:35] <zewt> (in FF)
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# [02:42] <rniwa> zewt: it doesn't properly on mac either
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# [02:42] <rniwa> odd. it appears to use simplified font on windows :(
# [02:43] <zewt> looks to use MS Gothic always for me
# [02:43] <rniwa> zewt: filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73507
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# [02:45] <zewt> rniwa: fwiw, you can probably remove the lang attribute there
# [02:45] <zewt> since it seems to happen without it
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# [02:47] <rniwa> zewt: http://www.shuiren.org/chuden/teach/code/main8.htm renders correctly on Chrome on Windows for me
# [02:48] <zewt> rniwa: it seems to have some xhtml-related problem for me
# [02:48] <zewt> if I s/xml:lang/lang/, it works
# [02:49] <zewt> er, no, that was in FF
# [02:49] <zewt> (overjuggling)
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# [02:50] <rniwa> zewt: ?
# [02:50] <zewt> (it renders wrong in FF8 for me, because of something to do with xhtml)
# [02:51] <zewt> rniwa: it renders correctly in Chrome only because of the font-family style
# [02:51] <zewt> <td><span xml:lang="zh-cn" style="font-size: 140%; font-family: SimSun">œ</span></td>
# [02:51] <rniwa> :(
# [02:51] <zewt> it's not actually using the language there
# [02:51] <rniwa> that's quite stupid
# [02:52] <zewt> so i'm guessing it shares whatever safari's problem is with lang
# [02:55] <zewt> rniwa: do you at least agree that, if browsers iron this stuff out (which should have happened long ago), language tagging + UTF-8 is a workable approach for authors to deal with han unification?
# [02:55] <zewt> (that is, all you do is add lang=jp to <body>)
# [02:55] <zewt> (for the vast majority of cases)
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# [02:56] <rniwa> zewt: not really. I still think it's broken in many ways. but I'd agree that we should fix it.
# [02:56] <zewt> why?
# [02:56] <rniwa> zewt: so that we can at least get the functionality UCS-2 provides.
# [02:56] <rniwa> zewt: I've already pointed out the code point issues.
# [02:57] <zewt> which language tagging fixes (and that's how CJK unicode rendering was intended to work from the beginning)
# [02:58] <rniwa> zewt: not really
# [02:58] <zewt> ...
# [02:58] <rniwa> zewt: some characters are assinged to two different code points even though they're the same character
# [02:58] <rniwa> of different styles
# [02:58] <zewt> so?
# [02:58] <rniwa> zewt: that would mean that changing fonts don't work
# [02:58] <rniwa> zewt: you need to edit the html to use different styles of characters
# [02:58] <rniwa> etc...
# [02:59] <zewt> there are multiple codepoints for "A" (full-width latin); it's a little weird but not a real problem
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# [03:01] <zewt> (when I see it I wish people wouldn't use it, but it's not nearly annoying enough to not use UTF-8 for)
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# [03:26] <roc> I assume you guys know about UVS
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# [03:30] <zewt> (not off-hand)
# [03:32] <roc> a Unicode feature that uses supplemental codepoints to encode glyph variations
# [03:33] <roc> I believe it's partly intended to address the complaints about Han unification
# [03:34] <roc> language markup works too, although it's confusing because language often affects font choice as well as shaping
# [03:34] <zewt> well, shaping is just part of the font in most systems
# [03:34] <roc> E.g. your language attributes might fix the problem by causing a suitable font to be selected
# [03:35] <roc> but if you explicitly set the "wrong" font (or the user does, maybe), you'd lose
# [03:35] <zewt> japanese fonts generally don't have chinese glyphs in them to begin with (putting aside that ttf fonts probably have no way to express that; don't know)
# [03:36] <roc> right, so if someone forced use of a Japanese font, then your Chinese text won't display properly
# [03:36] <roc> Opentype fonts can use language-specific shaping tables, and Gecko supports that, but I don't know how many fonts do
# [03:36] <zewt> that could be fixed in time, of course, though i suspect mixing japanese and chinese glyphs is too much of an edge case for the cost
# [03:36] <roc> so a font could support both Japanese and Chinese correctly
# [03:38] <zewt> but this isn't actually a problem with the lang markup approach (eg. I doubt encoding it with Unicode features would change it)
# [03:38] <zewt> it's just limitations of the fonts and font engines
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# [03:39] <roc> true
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# [04:07] <dglazkov> wg what?
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# [05:10] <dbaron> roc, you mean IVS? (Ideographic Variation Sequences)
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# [05:21] <roc> yes
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# [08:07] <hsivonen> where do I see the system requirements for Opera Next?
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# [08:52] <hsivonen> categorizing elliptical arcs and elliptical curves as graphics or crypto could be a CAPTCHA question
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# [09:00] <annevk> hsivonen: the same as http://www.opera.com/browser/download/requirements/ prolly
# [09:00] <annevk> hsivonen: not sure if we have that stated somewhere
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# [09:05] <annevk> I don't get the XPath thread, why don't the proponents simply write a spec and get it implemented?
# [09:05] <zcorpan> so there's discussion about incremental XHR, but no discussion about incremental HTML/XML parsing APIs
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# [09:06] <annevk> Is that even needed though?
# [09:08] <annevk> whatwg.org slow?
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# [09:09] <zcorpan> consider a page that inserts new content fetched from xhr
# [09:09] <zcorpan> currently people wait for everything to download, and then assign innerHTML or so
# [09:10] <zcorpan> with chunked XHR, they still need to wait for everything before assigning to innerHTML
# [09:10] <annevk> so some new kind of document.write() API?
# [09:11] <zcorpan> yeah
# [09:11] <annevk> o_O
# [09:11] <zcorpan> element.write() :)
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# [09:15] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. Re: requirements
# [09:16] <hsivonen> annevk: Re: XPath: it's not just an issue of the proponents getting it implemented. patches might not be welcome if they are perceived as a slippery slope to having to get on the XPath 2 maintenance treadmill
# [09:17] <hsivonen> annevk: IIRC, some WebKit/Qt hacker tried to contrib XPath 2 (or was it XSLT 2) support, but the wider WebKit stakeholders wisely rejected it
# [09:17] <annevk> Okay, but e.g. EXSLT has been implemented by some browsers...
# [09:17] <annevk> From what I remember anyway, it's been a while
# [09:18] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, at the time when Mozilla accepted patches for pretty much anything than looked stardardish
# [09:20] <hsivonen> fortunately for math, MathML got in the codebase, too, during that era
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# [09:30] <annevk> hsivonen: I asked and our system requirements are so low that nobody has really cared to put that amount of detail into experimental releases
# [09:30] <annevk> hsivonen: runs on => W2K and we only just ditched W9x support if that means anything to you
# [09:30] * annevk has a fast Mac, doesn't care
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# [09:34] <annevk> 3PM ET == 9PM CET?
# [09:34] <annevk> MikeSmith, ^^
# [09:34] * annevk might not make that
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: no problem
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> that was the only time it seems we could get everybody on
# [09:35] <annevk> yeah, have fun :)
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> well, not everybody, obviously
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> I honestly don't know what's left to say about that, anyway
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> I thought my last message in the thread made it all pretty clear
# [09:36] <annevk> some people like to talk to talk
# [09:36] <annevk> or something
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> for three years
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> saying the same things without actually doing much of anything concrete
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> anyway, I need to step out for food and drink
# [09:38] <MikeSmith> long evening of late-night telcons to look forward to
# [09:39] <annevk> go to the fancy sushi place :)
# [09:41] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, someone should write a spec for teh XPath thing. I can't really do it though as either bratell or Katie would kill me. Maybe João should do it.
# [09:45] <annevk> zcorpan: fwiw, until queue a task moves to DOM4, it's the wrong place to spec APIs around it imo
# [09:46] <annevk> jgraham: you should write notifications already :p
# [09:46] <jgraham> annevk: I know :)
# [09:46] <annevk> jgraham: why would Katie kill you though? you'd do it in your free time?
# [09:46] <annevk> jgraham: didn't realize the Xpath-love was so strong with you :p
# [09:47] <jgraham> Well yeah, the two options would be use work time -> death by bratell, use free time -> death by Katie. Both options end in death. I don't like XPath *that* much
# [09:47] <annevk> it would be nice though if there finally was a spec that said how //text() works with DOM-based environments
# [09:48] <zcorpan> annevk: moved the bug
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# [09:49] <annevk> thanks
# [09:49] <zcorpan> jgraham: what happens if you use half the time on work time and the other half on free time?
# [09:50] <annevk> coma
# [09:51] <jgraham> Isn't that how you unleash the special 2 v 1 mode that leads to quick, but painful, death?
# [09:51] <jgraham> *unlock
# [09:52] <jgraham> Anyway, seriously, not going to happen at the moment
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# [09:57] <rniwa> annevk: so about setAttributeNS / setAttribute difference,
# [09:57] <rniwa> annevk: the problem is that setAttributeNS does more than just setting the value
# [09:57] <rniwa> annevk: it also modifies the namespace prefix
# [09:58] <rniwa> annevk: so I'd have to special-case that :(
# [09:58] <zcorpan> modifying prefix seems annoying
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# [09:59] <annevk> rniwa: ideally we remove that
# [09:59] <annevk> rniwa: it currently does not do that in WebKit or Opera
# [09:59] <annevk> rniwa: Gecko does do it, but then mutation observers does not take it into account
# [09:59] <rniwa> annevk: how about IE?
# [10:00] <annevk> I cannot test IE :(
# [10:00] <rniwa> i didn't even know about namespace prefix stuff 'til I read the spec
# [10:00] <rniwa> it's super annoying
# [10:00] <annevk> if you paste http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011OctDec/0214.html in the live dom viewer you can find out what IE does
# [10:00] * rniwa boots his windows machine
# [10:00] <annevk> rniwa: say so in the www-dom thread!
# [10:01] <annevk> rniwa: if everyone but sicking finds it annoying, we're just going to not do it
# [10:01] <annevk> as it's a super edge case not worth caring much about
# [10:01] <rniwa> annevk: i'm waiting 'til my spec goes on public-webapps
# [10:02] <rniwa> I highly doubt that any author understands this behavior
# [10:02] <rniwa> but then.. very few people use setAttributeNS anyway
# [10:02] <sicking> annevk: finds what annoying?
# [10:02] <rniwa> so maybe those people get annoyed ?
# [10:02] <sicking> annevk: i find prefixes annoying in all forms :)
# [10:02] <annevk> sicking: setAttributeNS doing more than setting the value
# [10:02] <sicking> node prefixes that is
# [10:02] <rniwa> sicking: namespace prefix changes in setAttributeNS
# [10:03] <sicking> annevk: oh, I don't believe I said anything on that topic at all
# [10:03] <rniwa> sicking: it makes undo manager / DOM4 spec more complicated :(
# [10:03] <sicking> annevk: other than that i'd like to get rid of namespaced attributes
# [10:03] <annevk> am I confusing sicking and bz again
# [10:03] <annevk> :(
# [10:03] <annevk> sorry sicking
# [10:03] <sicking> annevk: bz has a much nicer beard than me
# [10:04] <annevk> heh, I'd love to meet him one day
# [10:04] <sicking> i thought you met him in MV once
# [10:04] <sicking> but maybe you weren't there
# [10:04] <annevk> ooh maybe a long time ago
# [10:05] <rniwa> annevk: as I've suspected, IE supports it
# [10:05] <rniwa> annevk: live DOM viewer shows e:a="b"
# [10:05] <annevk> kk
# [10:07] <annevk> I think http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011OctDec/0222.html is a very compelling argument though and therefore I think I will just remove it
# [10:07] <annevk> and I'll file a bug on Gecko to see if they are willing to match the spec
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# [10:10] <rniwa> alright
# [10:10] <rniwa> my spec just got real :D
# [10:10] <rniwa> all pending issues have been resolved
# [10:11] <annevk> you mean the first 80%?
# [10:11] <annevk> the remaining 80% takes half a decade :p
# [10:11] <rniwa> annevk: basically, I don't have anything to add at this point except clarifying details (which is going to take another 2 years to finish)
# [10:11] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, the first 80%.
# [10:11] <rniwa> annevk: the remaining 20% will take 2 years + 10 years for writing tests
# [10:12] <rniwa> well at least in my optimistic estimate
# [10:12] <annevk> congratulations though, still pretty sweet :)
# [10:12] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, i'm super excited about it
# [10:12] * rniwa needs to update the date and push it to rniwa.com
# [10:13] <jgraham> You probably also need to get implementations ;)
# [10:13] <rniwa> jgraham: yeah...
# [10:13] <rniwa> jgraham: I was hoping to get an intern do it
# [10:13] <rniwa> jgraham: but apparently people want it before next summer
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# [10:14] <rniwa> so i guess i'll do it in Q1
# [10:16] <rniwa> jgraham: I hear sicking had an intern start implementing it for gecko
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# [10:16] <sicking> rniwa: yeah, he got far but didn't finish it. Don't know when we'll be able to do the remaining parts :(
# [10:17] <rniwa> sicking: sounds like he has a full-time offer?
# [10:17] <sicking> rniwa: oh, there's one part that i notcied that you're missing
# [10:17] <rniwa> sicking: ?
# [10:17] <sicking> rniwa: you only have info on how to revert changes
# [10:17] <sicking> rniwa: not how to reapply them
# [10:17] <rniwa> sicking: right
# [10:17] <rniwa> sicking: oh, so reapply will be reverts of reverts
# [10:18] <sicking> rniwa: hmm... is that always true
# [10:18] <rniwa> sicking: I think so.
# [10:18] <sicking> could be
# [10:19] <rniwa> sicking: if there are cases where that's not the case, then let me know
# [10:19] <rniwa> sicking: but I haven't been able to come up with a case yet.
# [10:19] <sicking> still needs to be defined. But if it's that simple i might have missed it.
# [10:19] <rniwa> sicking: so in http://rniwa.com/editing/undomanager.html#automatic-dom-transactions
# [10:20] <rniwa> sicking: I say "When an automatic DOM transaction is reapplied, the user agent must revert DOM changes made inside the undo scope of the the UndoManager while unapplying the transation."
# [10:20] <rniwa> sicking: whereas for unapply, I said "When an automatic DOM transaction is unapplied, the user agent must revert DOM changes made inside the undo scope of the the UndoManager while *applying* the transation"
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# [10:23] <hsivonen> What's the best workflow for going from .ttf to a subsetted .woff these days in a way that doesn't break ligatures and contextual alternative glyphs?
# [10:23] <hsivonen> is it Philip`'s subsetter plus a separate .ttf to .woff converter?
# [10:23] <rniwa> sicking: does that make sense? or should I clarify more?
# [10:27] <sicking> rniwa: that means that the implementation must continuously update it's automatic transaction though, is that good?
# [10:27] <sicking> rniwa: currently in gecko we just store information when the transaction is created, and that information remains constant as we apply/unapply
# [10:28] <rniwa> !?
# [10:28] <rniwa> sicking: right.
# [10:29] <rniwa> sicking: I don't really follow your continuously updating part.
# [10:29] <sicking> rniwa: say that you create an automatic transaction which inserts a node
# [10:29] <rniwa> sicking: I'm not saying that you should implement each mutation inside undo/redo as an automatic transaction
# [10:30] <sicking> rniwa: a transaction-object is created which stores a reference to that node (and maybe other information)
# [10:30] <sicking> rniwa: say that the page the removes the node from the DOM
# [10:30] <sicking> rniwa: and then calls unapply
# [10:30] <sicking> rniwa: at this point unapply can't remove the node since it no longer has a parent
# [10:30] <rniwa> sicking: right
# [10:30] <sicking> rniwa: in other words, unapply doesn't do anything
# [10:30] <rniwa> sicking: sure.
# [10:31] <rniwa> sicking: so it didn't make any DOM changes
# [10:31] <rniwa> sicking: if you do reapply at that point, reapply doesn't do anything
# [10:31] <sicking> rniwa: per spec, that means that the transaction has to update it's internal information to now represent nothing
# [10:31] <rniwa> hm....
# [10:31] <rniwa> sicking: would that be an issue?
# [10:31] <sicking> rniwa: in other words, the transaction doesn't hold constant data
# [10:31] <sicking> rniwa: seems harder implementation wise. To no benefit as far as i can see
# [10:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you happen to know of an up-to-date .ttf to .woff converter that runs on Linux?
# [10:32] <rniwa> hm...
# [10:32] <sicking> rniwa: in fact, it's probably good if the implementation holds the data so that it can try to re-insert the node if you reapply
# [10:32] <rniwa> sicking: ok, I think you're right.
# [10:32] <rniwa> sicking: i guess I'll just change the spec then
# [10:33] <sicking> rniwa: thanks. I do think that'll make implementation a good bit simpler
# [10:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is fontsquirrel broken?
# [10:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you mean this: http://www.fontsquirrel.com/fontface/generator
# [10:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it's not something I can automate on Linux
# [10:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is that the best that's available?
# [10:35] <zcorpan> no idea
# [10:35] <hsivonen> (Flash-based file upload. boo.)
# [10:36] <zcorpan> ugh
# [10:39] <rniwa> sicking: yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking through
# [10:39] * rniwa replies some random email about Arabizi
# [10:40] <rniwa> I don't quite understand what they're trying to propose though
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# [10:42] <annevk> should the DOM specification have these kind of anal definitions:
# [10:43] <annevk> X attribute: An attribute whose local name is X and namespace and namespace prefix are null
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# [10:43] <annevk> has an X attribute: An element that has an X attribute in its attribute list
# [10:44] <annevk> s/has an X attribute/has an attribute/
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# [10:47] <annevk> I'm just going to go with it
# [10:47] <annevk> someone can tell me otherwise later
# [10:49] <rniwa> annevk: that sounds fine
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# [10:49] <rniwa> annevk: although "has an X attribute: An element that has an X attribute in its attribute list" sounds like a recursive definition
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# [10:56] <rniwa> sicking: I suppose there's no sanity check required for reapplying DOM changes?
# [10:57] <rniwa> hm... i guess there's some.
# [10:57] <annevk> if you just say element has an attribute, where do you look?
# [10:57] <annevk> it's commonly assumed you look in its attribute list and in fact it's the only logical thing to do
# [10:57] <annevk> but it's not written down
# [10:57] <rniwa> annevk: right.
# [10:57] <annevk> at least not so far
# [10:58] <annevk> :)
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# [10:58] <rniwa> annevk: I'd say that an element E has an attribute A if an attribute A is in E's attribute list.
# [10:59] <rniwa> annevk: we should really kill attribute nodes
# [10:59] <annevk> yeah, that's the definition
# [10:59] <annevk> rniwa: already done spec-wise...
# [10:59] <rniwa> annevk: oh really?
# [10:59] <rniwa> hm... we just need to kill the ones in the wild i guess?
# [10:59] <annevk> rniwa: Gecko is trying that for us
# [11:00] <rniwa> annevk: great!
# [11:00] <annevk> rniwa: they give plenty of warnings if you try to do Attr node related stuff
# [11:00] <rniwa> annevk: I think we can improve the DOM perf. a lot once we get rid of attr nodes
# [11:00] <annevk> made Facebook stop using it
# [11:00] <rniwa> annevk: that's very nice
# [11:01] <annevk> attribute nodes are DTD legacy :(
# [11:02] <annevk> so in a way we can blame Dan Connolly for convincing Tim HTML had to be SGML-based
# [11:02] <annevk> (rather than just inspired, as HTML 1 was)
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# [11:11] <sicking> annevk: really? I didn't know that history, that's very interesting
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# [11:18] <annevk> sicking: e.g. in http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/book4/ch02.html search for "July 1994"
# [11:19] <annevk> sicking: or http://infomesh.net/html/history/early/
# [11:20] <annevk> Dan told me in person, too :)
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# [12:18] <malydok> I've got a weird problem with firefox recently: almost everywhere I click appears a blinking vertical text bar. Wut?
# [12:19] <jgraham> Press F7
# [12:20] <malydok> Wow, thanks.
# [12:20] <malydok> What's that option anyway?
# [12:20] <malydok> Found it, nvm.
# [12:21] <jgraham> It's caret browsing mode; supposed to help keyboard navigate web pages iirc
# [12:22] <malydok> "Allow text to be selected with the keyboard"
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# [12:30] <opalepatrick> looking for a place to ask simple questions related to html5 etc. Like "is header img {}" acceptable?
# [12:31] <zcorpan> here might work. or #html5
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# [12:34] <opalepatrick> Cheers - I suppose my question is does <header> respond to normal block level css - so I could center a log iusing margin, etc?
# [12:34] <opalepatrick> logo*
# [12:35] <jgraham> Generally HTML elements are entirely independent of CSS
# [12:35] <jgraham> In the sense that any CSS rule can be applied to any element
# [12:35] <jgraham> The only exception is replaced content including forms
# [12:37] <opalepatrick> thanks jgraham - it is probably just me having difficulty centering a logo in a header.
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# [12:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: I know almost precisely nothing about WOFF
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# [13:21] <zcorpan> opalepatrick: in browsers that don't support <header>, it's an inline element, so you need to set it to display:block to work as you expect
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# [13:46] <opalepatrick> thanks very much for that zcorpan - worked perfectly - I am surprised that firefox 8 doesnt actually support header like that
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# [13:54] <hsivonen> I find it a bit unintuitive that overflow: -o-paged-x; is declared inside an @media -o-paged {} at-rule
# [13:54] <hsivonen> so the media is somehow considered paged before paging is enabled
# [13:55] <zcorpan> iirc annevk suggested the at-rule could be dropped
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# [14:00] <hsivonen> also, -o-paged-x-controls is uglyish and doesn't work nicely when set on an element that has rounded corners.
# [14:00] <hsivonen> furthermore, on Linux, height: 100% on the root means 100% of the screen height
# [14:00] <hsivonen> which makes no sense when the browser chrome takes part of the screen height
# [14:01] <hsivonen> so I get both paging and a vertical scrollbar
# [14:01] <jgraham> Sounds like a bug
# [14:01] <hsivonen> sure
# [14:03] <hsivonen> in other news, having three consecutive elements two first ones of which have page-break-after:avoid; allows a page break between the first and the second instead of moving all three to the next page
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# [14:12] <hsivonen> so I have a floating image with a negative margin right. When it's on a column on the left, it gets clipped by the column to the right
# [14:13] <hsivonen> Opera Reader bug or a CSS multicol feature?
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# [14:13] <hsivonen> do I need some z-index trick to make an image that pokes out of its column paint on top of the next column?
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# [14:24] <hsivonen> looks like break-inside: avoid-column; is not supported :-(
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# [14:28] <hsivonen> even more curious than the Linux case of height: 100% referring to screen height, on Honeycomb, it also refers to the screen height instead of the height left to the app after the system has taken the actionbar space
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# [14:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: If you file [a|some] bug[s], can you point me at [it|them] and I will try to make sure they reach the right people
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# [14:34] <jgraham> Oh, mailman day again
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# [15:38] <zcorpan> .mobi is free to transfer
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# [15:59] <MikeSmith> heh
# [15:59] <MikeSmith> telnet miku.acm.uiuc.edu
# [16:03] * zcorpan has never used telnet
# [16:03] <jgraham> Things that are weird: In Dave Raggett's book he talks about himself in the third person
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# [16:16] <StewieG> Hello
# [16:19] <StewieG> maybe someone has experience with Video conferencing and peer-to-peer communication ?
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# [16:21] <AryehGregor> StewieG, if you have a question, best to just ask it.
# [16:21] <AryehGregor> Then hang around and wait.
# [16:21] <AryehGregor> Someone might get back to you after a while.
# [16:22] <AryehGregor> There are definitely people here who are familiar with those parts of HTML, yes.
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# [16:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Not good enough it seems
# [16:41] <AryehGregor> What's not good enough?
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# [16:49] <Velmont> I did live video streaming from a "conference" early this morning using html5 et al. :-)
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# [16:53] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: How do I upload files to the whatwg wiki? I've got some screenshots for the text-input-mode page.
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# [17:01] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Ask a question and wait
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# [17:31] <zewt> seem to recall having a discussion about callback-based blobs for providing data sources, but can't remember where...
# [17:32] <zewt> found it, "File API Streaming Blobs"
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# [18:05] <nick5437> hi
# [18:08] <nick5437> Philip`: the code you suggested yesteday to emulate the useful "copy" is not working because the "crop" does not consider the width of a single line as a path
# [18:12] <nick5437> anyone here?
# [18:14] <nick5437> Is it possible to change the spec about "copy" of globalCompositeOperation in canvas to make it like the current chrome implementation or to add a new globalCompositeOperation to have the same result?
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> nick5437, you might want to file a spec bug.
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> Noting how all the different browsers behave would be useful.
# [18:15] <AryehGregor> If other major browsers also behave that way, then you could probably make a good case for it.
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# [18:16] <nick5437> firefox used to do the "copy" in that way too but they changed idea only to be with spec, not because the spec "copy" is useful in real uses. there is an interesting conversation in the bug fix about that in firefox
# [18:16] <Philip`> nick5437: The compositing behaviour has been discussed several times, about making it only apply to pixels that are drawn and not to any outside the shapes, but it seems unlikely to change unless someone can at least define precisely how to determine what pixels are drawn (in a way that can be interoperably implemented)
# [18:17] <Philip`> (including interaction with shadows etc)
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# [18:21] <nick5437> is it possible to add a new globalCompositeOperation that do the same? browsers like firefox already have the code to do both "copy" so it could become real in a realistic time, right?
# [18:22] <nick5437> i think the old firefox copy and current chrome
# [18:22] <Philip`> It's only possible if someone can define precisely how it should work :-)
# [18:22] * Philip` doesn't know how well the old implementations matched each other
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# [18:25] <nick5437> is it ok for the spec an image with about 5 examples about the way it should work with shadows and opacity? A picture is worth a thousand words sometimes. to avoid browser confusion on implementation like now
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# [18:26] <AryehGregor> nick5437, I'm pretty sure a precise definition is needed, not just examples.
# [18:26] <Philip`> Pictures are too ambiguous to specify behaviour, though they can be very useful when trying to figure out what behaviour to write down
# [18:27] <nick5437> the actual specs using text only have generated lots of confusion in my opinion
# [18:27] <nick5437> http://www.rekim.com/2011/02/11/html5-canvas-globalcompositeoperation-browser-handling/
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# [18:28] <nick5437> or the browser creators are not able to read the specs
# [18:29] <Philip`> I believe all implementors agree on the understanding of what the spec specifies
# [18:29] <Hixie> what's the service that runs under the username lhunt on whatwg.org?
# [18:29] <Hixie> the blog?
# [18:29] <Philip`> (though they haven't all got around to implementing it that way)
# [18:30] <Hixie> looks like it's the blog, the forum is under whatforum and the wiki under whatwiki
# [18:30] <Hixie> assuming it's the blog, the blog is getting hit hard at the moment, wtf
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# [18:37] <nick5437> My english is not so good to create a detailed spec (I'm not a native). Could I post an image with examples about the "goodcopy" and let others on the review process to formulate a good text spec?
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# [18:42] <AryehGregor> nick5437, writing good specs is very hard. It's not just about phrasing it, it's about figuring out all the corner cases.
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> In this case, good performance might be essential too.
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# [18:44] <nick5437> the code of what I'm proposing is already there on firefox and chrome. I'm just proposing to call "goodcopy" the actual chrome implementation of "copy" and "copy" the actual implementation of "copy" on firefox
# [18:44] <AryehGregor> Are you assuming they're actually interoperable in corner cases?
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# [18:49] <nick5437> i tried it with different opacities and the implementation looks fine. The whole stuff I'm talking about creating lines with different opacities, size and blur in drawing apps using tablet pressure
# [18:51] <tantek> Hixie, I'm iterating on the change proposals for time/data to include responses to issues/alternatives raised and I wanted to get your opinion on a few things
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# [18:52] <nick5437> I think tablet pressure + html5 is something interesting and the "goodcopy" an easy way to use it without changing all the line specs or adding a new line type
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# [19:07] <tantek> Hixie, in particular, for <time> element, what do you think of allowing the datetime syntax with a space (U+0020) instead of 'T' between the date and time?
# [19:07] <tantek> my opinion is that it would be helpful
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# [19:11] <tantek> there has also been a proposal to add a "tz" attribute to the <time> element to provide separate timezone information
# [19:11] <tantek> I have mixed feelings about it
# [19:12] <tantek> on the one hand I appreciate the seemingly cleaner design by separating timezone into a separate attribute
# [19:12] <tantek> on the other hand I think it may actually *worse* data quality
# [19:13] <tantek> and potentially (even worse) cause us to consider incorporating Olsen - which is a huge mistake for any data format (basing on something that is politically in flux over time)
# [19:13] <tantek> e.g. I can see people seeing the "tz" attribute, and instead of writing tz="-0800", writing something like tz="PST"
# [19:14] <tantek> and if enough people make that mistake - we'd have to consider incorporating some sort of named time zone database etc.
# [19:14] <tantek> so since I'm unsure about it - I'd rather leave out a dedicated "tz" attribute for now
# [19:14] <tantek> anybody else have any thoughts on that?
# [19:15] <tantek> btw this is all regarding Marat's alternate time element proposals: http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Mtanalin/time_element
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# [19:19] <tantek> Sam has asked me to address the issues and counter proposals (such as that) that have been raised as part of my time/data element change proposals: http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik#time_element_issues
# [19:19] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
# [19:19] <tantek> I believe the goal is to reach some sort of consensus with alternatives/issues for the sake of the HTMLWG.
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# [19:23] <tantek> Also, I'm opposed to renaming datetime to value/content etc. Given the constrained microsyntax(es), it makes sense to have a specific attribute name.
# [19:24] <tantek> Also, web authors work better with specific attribute names like datetime which provide a hint as to what the attribute is about, rather than abstract attribute names like "value" which seem like they can take anything (which it can't in the time element).
# [19:24] <tantek> Also, "value" collides with the existing semantics of say <input> value
# [19:24] <tantek> defining an attribute with the same name but completely different meaning will only confuse web authors
# [19:25] <tantek> if anyone has any other reasons against renaming datetime to value/content etc. please feel free to chime in
# [19:30] <nick5437> is the timezone considering something related to the daylight saving time too?
# [19:30] <nick5437> or it is not a problem at all
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# [19:41] <TabAtkins_> tantek: You're a whatwg wiki admin, right? Do I need special permissions to upload images or something?
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# [19:44] <Hixie> tantek: a single space instead of the T? or just any whitespace?
# [19:45] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: we can make you an admin too
# [19:45] <tantek> hixie - just a single space
# [19:45] <tantek> instead of the T
# [19:46] <Hixie> so <time datetime="9901-01-01 00:00:00"></time> would be value, but
# [19:46] <Hixie> so <time datetime="9901-01-01
# [19:46] <Hixie> 00:00:00"></time> would not?
# [19:46] <Hixie> s/value/value/
# [19:46] <Hixie> geez
# [19:46] <Hixie> s/value/valid/
# [19:46] <tantek> right
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# [19:46] <tantek> just U+0020
# [19:47] <tantek> and I would allow that for <ins>/<del> datetime also
# [19:47] <Hixie> seems like a bit of a gratuitous departure from ISO8601... i mean, if the use case is "make it easy to read and write", why stop there?
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# [19:48] <tantek> because the use of " " instead is already a common convention
# [19:48] <tantek> basically, we're not innovating, we're only adopting something that's been in use for a while
# [19:48] <Hixie> in <time>, or in general?
# [19:48] <tantek> it's been a mod on ISO8601 in general
# [19:48] <Hixie> i would posit that in general, arbitrary whitespace is the convention
# [19:48] <Hixie> not just a single space
# [19:49] <Hixie> and that there's a bunch of other looseness that's a general convention too
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# [19:49] <tantek> not in the docs I've seen
# [19:49] <Hixie> e.g. a space before the timezone, or not using +hh:mm for the timezone but using "PDT" etc
# [19:49] <tantek> it's always been recommended and used as a single space
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# [19:49] <tantek> as a replacement for 'T'
# [19:49] <tantek> since datetime with the 'T' is particularly human unfriendly it seems
# [19:49] <Hixie> i guess we should look at data
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# [19:50] <Hixie> not sure what the right way to check this one way or another would be
# [19:50] * tantek is looking for references
# [19:50] <tantek> I've seen this before, I just can't remember the URLs at the moment.
# [19:51] <tantek> well here's a rough mention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Combined_date_and_time_representations
# [19:51] <tantek> "The date and time representations may appear in proximity to each other, often separated by a space or sometimes by other characters."
# [19:52] <tantek> note that "a space" is the only specific alternative separator mentioned
# [19:52] <Hixie> yeah but that says they're two fields, not that it's one U+0020 character in a single field
# [19:52] <tantek> in my opinion that gives it more weight than other hypothetical separators (arbitrary whitespace etc.)
# [19:52] <Hixie> just searching for "date time format" on google doesn't support your thesis. the examples all have widely different forms when you move away from ISO8601, there doesn't seem to be a consistent move from ISO8601 to s/T/ /
# [19:52] <tantek> yeah - not sure how much we can rely on such details in a WIkipedia page anyway
# [19:53] <tantek> Hixie - insufficiently specific search :)
# [19:53] <Hixie> it's not like people are going to be able to use ISO8601-with-space as a human-readable format anyway
# [19:53] <Hixie> different locales need different punctuation, e.g.
# [19:54] <Hixie> even if the order is y-m-d
# [19:54] <Hixie> and some locales need AM/PM, others need 24h clocks
# [19:54] <Hixie> i'd just keep it simple and have one format
# [19:54] <Hixie> our "one format" already has like 8 variants
# [19:54] <Hixie> no need to double it :-)
# [19:56] <tantek> ok I can be convinced of that
# [19:56] <tantek> I will write up your arguments accordingly.
# [19:56] <tantek> does our current datetime permit more than 4 digit years?
# [19:56] <Hixie> yeah
# [19:56] <Hixie> 4+
# [19:56] <tantek> ok cool
# [19:56] <Hixie> as far as the other things you mentioned, i think i agree with all your comments
# [19:56] <Hixie> for tz="", remember we now allow timezone separately
# [19:57] <Hixie> so they can use two <time> elements
# [19:57] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: If that's what's needed to upload images to the wiki, then yes please.
# [19:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: no idea if that's what's needed. if you need somewhere to upload files, though, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/uploader/uploader w643kJ6Gv43q3
# [19:57] <tantek> just noticed this while searching for deviations from ISO: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#morethan9999years (the more than 4 digits for years thing)
# [19:58] <tantek> I love that in the Y2K update of ISO8601 they decided to fix the Y10K problem in ISO8601.
# [19:58] <Hixie> tantek: what's your username?
# [19:58] <tantek> Hixie re: tz - they can't quite use two timezone elements
# [19:58] <Hixie> er
# [19:58] <nick3264> I'm interested about writing a globalCompositeOperation proposal. is the wiki a good place for it?
# [19:58] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: what's your username
# [19:58] <tantek> because time elements don't combine semantics
# [19:58] <Hixie> tantek: no?
# [19:59] <Hixie> hmm
# [19:59] <Hixie> well
# [19:59] <tantek> that was a separate proposal
# [19:59] <tantek> for which there wasn't sufficient support
# [19:59] <Hixie> the combined semantics thing basically depends on the vocab you're using it with
# [19:59] <tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#composite_nested_time_elements
# [19:59] <Hixie> if the vocab says "put time and date here and tz here and combine them like so", then that's what it is
# [19:59] <tantek> sure - you can do that too
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# [20:00] <tantek> I meant in a vocab independent way
# [20:00] <tantek> that just worked with the time element
# [20:00] <Hixie> ah yeah i dunno what the use case for that would be
# [20:00] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: nm got it
# [20:00] <tantek> Hixie, no new use cases, just improved data quality of existing use cases
# [20:00] <tantek> but then this is something we can add later
# [20:00] <tantek> so I'm not in a rush to add it now
# [20:00] <tantek> happy to wait until more people are convinced
# [20:01] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: ok you're marked as admin and bureaucrat, whatever that means
# [20:01] <Hixie> tantek: k
# [20:01] <tantek> Tabatkins, remember the saying
# [20:01] <Hixie> afk for a bit, bbl
# [20:02] <tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Ben#.22With_great_power_comes_great_responsibility.22
# [20:03] <nick3264> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quis_custodiet_ipsos_custodes%3F :)
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# [20:10] <tantek> also afk for a bit, bbl
# [20:11] <nick3264> cya. dinner time
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# [20:12] <kennyluck> Hixie, tantek. The date time python module output " " instead of "T" for str(aDatetime). I haven't checked libraries in other languages.Though some ISO8601 parsers don't parse " ".
# [20:12] <kennyluck> But in this case, I think we should optimize for the authors.
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# [20:16] <tantek> kennyluck - do you have a URL for that? "date time python module output " " instead of "T" for str(aDatetime)"
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# [20:17] <kennyluck> tantek, http://docs.python.org/dev/library/datetime.html#datetime.datetime.__str__
# [20:19] <kennyluck> my guess is that people would rely more on "%s" % aDatetime than something like aDatetime.isoformat(), which uses "T" as the default separator, though I can't be sure.
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# [20:22] <kennyluck> In any case, I hate the "T". It's too machine-like and doesn't look friendly.
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# [20:26] <mkanat> All ISO-8601 parsers should parse the space; it's valid.
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# [20:31] <kennyluck> Hixie, re. "it's not like people are going to be able to use ISO8601-with-space as a human-readable format anyway". I disagree with you, I think this is the most i18n-wise human-readable format. Everytime I see timezone abbrevs like "PDT" instead of UTC-5, I whine. English months are not so bad but still.
# [20:33] <mkanat> Yeah, I've used that as a human-readable format all the time.
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# [20:35] <tantek> mkanat - do you have a URL that explains how it's valid that all ISO-8601 parsers should parse the space?
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# [20:35] <mkanat> tantek: I'll see what I can find.
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# [20:35] <tantek> thanks, appreciated.
# [20:36] <mkanat> tantek: Ahh, it's not that everybody should accept space--it's that those are two separate representations.
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# [20:36] <mkanat> tantek: I'm just so used to parsers accepting a space.
# [20:37] <tantek> mkanat - even URLs to parser documentation that shows that they accept a space there instead of a 'T' would be handy.
# [20:38] <tantek> basically, it's very different if we're just adopting an established precedent / extension to ISO8601 than addressing the general problem of creatively making ISO8601 datetimes more human friendly.
# [20:41] <mkanat> tantek: This isn't perfect, but one example is that MySQL takes and sends all its dates in that format: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/datetime.html
# [20:41] <mkanat> tantek: As does almost every other DBMS I've ever used (with a few exceptions--I believe Sybase doesn't).
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# [20:41] <kennyluck> nice!
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# [20:43] <mkanat> Perl's Date::Parse also takes dates in that format, although it's not int he documentation.
# [20:44] <mkanat> But we've been relying on it doing so, for years, in Bugzilla.
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# [20:48] <Velmont> I also dislike the T.
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# [20:49] <mkanat> I believe every Date.parse implementation also supports it in browsers, although I haven't checked and it's not what the standard says.
# [20:49] <mkanat> Or at least, it's not the "subset of ISO 8601" from http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime
# [20:50] <kennyluck> mkanat, that's unfortunately wrong, at least for FF8.
# [20:50] <mkanat> kennyluck: Drat.
# [20:50] <mkanat> Well, Chrome can parse it.
# [20:51] <mkanat> Probably the standard should say something about contexts where input is only a datetime.
# [20:52] <mkanat> Since yes, in a string of text, "2011-11-11 11:11:11" could logically be two separate representations, in a call to Date.parse, from the developer's perspective, it's obviously one representation.
# [20:52] <Velmont> Opera handles it as well.
# [20:54] <zewt> as does IE8, at least (would have to load a VM to test 9)
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# [21:21] <Hixie> kennyluck: i agree and use the same format myself, but we are in a woefully small minority
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# [21:22] <Hixie> tantek: if we can collect evidence e.g. showing that there are common parsers that support a nicer format, i'm certainly all for it, fwiw
# [21:22] <Hixie> tantek: my reluctance is just to forging new ground here
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# [21:29] <kennyluck> Hixie, common parsers or generators?
# [21:31] <TabAtkins> tantek: What saying?
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# [21:32] <Phae> Hixie: thanks for the link to your microdata usability testing. sorry for not seeing it sooner.
# [21:32] <TabAtkins> tantek: Ah, I see it now. I didn't connect the link following your comment to what you were saying.
# [21:32] <TabAtkins> tantek: Also, I already deleted the entire wiki and devoted it to crochet pornography, so, um, I guess I failed Uncle Ben.
# [21:32] <Hixie> kennyluck: well both, but parsers are more important, since publishers with no parsers is just a waste of time and bandwidth for a lot of people
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# [21:33] <Hixie> Phae: no worries
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# [21:37] <timeless> zewt: i could test ie9/ie10pp4 if you wanted
# [21:38] <kennyluck> ECMAScript5 pretty much says you could do whatever you want beyond a subset of ISO8601. I would be very surprised if ie changes this behavior, but I guess it's still worth checking.
# [21:39] <Hixie> ES5 doesn't define the parsing?
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# [21:41] <kennyluck> Hixie, isn't that the reason why we have → http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#Date_Parsing ?
# [21:41] <zewt> timeless: if they want (not involved in the time stuff, just giving a data point)
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# [21:42] <Hixie> kennyluck: hah
# [21:42] <Hixie> kennyluck: i guess so
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# [22:01] <timeless> zewt: someone would have to tell me what they want me to do
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# [22:02] <zewt> don't know if anyone actually needs it, but i just did javascript:alert(Date.parse("2011-11-11 11:11:11"))
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# [22:03] <timeless> NaN in my default ie here in w8
# [22:04] <timeless> which is some flavor of ie10
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# [22:06] <timeless> ie9:f12 says Date.parse("2011-11-11 11:11:11") = NaN
# [22:07] <kennyluck> wow, that's surprising, given that IE8 supports this.
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# [22:15] <zewt> odd--now neither of them are working. not sure what I'm doing differently
# [22:15] <zewt> maybe I switched browser windows before without realizing? dunno.
# [22:15] <zewt> also, fascinating chrome utter braindamage: it strips javascript: when i paste into the address bar.
# [22:15] <kennyluck> oh, my.
# [22:15] <zewt> special thanks to chrome for making the address bar more and more horrible
# [22:16] <zewt> ie8 only seems to be accepting the format it outputs from toString ("Thu Dec 1 16:10:18 EST 2011").
# [22:18] <kennyluck> zewt, yeah, that's another requirement from ECMAScript, namely, toString and then Date.parse needs go back to the original.
# [22:19] <timeless> zewt: IE seems to do that too
# [22:19] <timeless> my guess is it's a security feature
# [22:19] <timeless> to prevent Facebook attacks
# [22:19] <timeless> and if that's its goal, i'm happy
# [22:20] <zewt> kennyluck: i don't think any implementation does that, since toString loses milliseconds
# [22:20] <timeless> kennyluck: should i ask how dare something require roundtripping? :)
# [22:21] <zewt> timeless: i'm of the stance that if a user is going to follow steps like "please copy this mysterious block of letters and paste it into your address bar", no amount of babysitting is going to protect them :)
# [22:21] <kennyluck> I guess I am just missing the details.
# [22:21] <Velmont> zewt: Maybe data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>alert(Date.parse("2011-11-11 11:11:11"))</script> will work?
# [22:23] <timeless> Velmont: historically, ie's support for data: urls was spotty
# [22:23] <timeless> it doesn't seem to have improved
# [22:23] <zewt> Velmont: nope (after copying to a file to avoid data:)
# [22:24] <timeless> i think the right approach is hixie's kitchen
# [22:24] <timeless> which lets you test out dom results of pages you compose
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# [22:25] <Velmont> zewt: huh? Doesn't chromium support data:?
# [22:25] <zewt> talking about IE here
# [22:25] <zewt> (re: formats supported by Date.parse)
# [22:25] <Velmont> 22:10 < zewt> also, fascinating chrome utter braindamage: it strips javascript: when i paste into the address bar. <<<
# [22:26] <zewt> eh, that's a huge amount of typing for pasting things across browsers to test, heh
# [22:26] <zewt> let me try it, out of curiosity
# [22:26] <zewt> heh yeah, so stripping javascript: does absolutely nothing (security-wise)
# [22:26] <zewt> unless there's some weird corner case i'm not thinking of, anyway
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# [22:29] <timeless> it does
# [22:30] <timeless> it requires users to be convinced to take 3 extra steps to do something they really shouldn't be doing
# [22:30] <timeless> but yes, facebook has millions of sheep
# [22:31] <zewt> oh, the difference is that data:html is run in a separate page, where javascript: is run in the existing page
# [22:31] <miketaylr> heh, type in j then copy-paste avascript:alert(1) to see a secret message!
# [22:31] <timeless> zewt: yep
# [22:31] <zewt> alt-faxmachine
# [22:31] <timeless> the attacks only work when they're same origin against stupid users in facebook (or similar)
# [22:32] <zewt> "attacks" :P
# [22:32] <timeless> miketaylr: i think it's "copy <avascript,....>; click urlbar, press j, paste, enter"
# [22:33] <timeless> zewt: they happen often enough that my eyes glaze over when i see reports
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# [22:33] <miketaylr> timeless: sorry, i'm new at pwning facebook users ;)
# [22:34] <timeless> you're a fast learner, you'll get the hang of it :)
# [22:34] <miketaylr> :D
# [22:34] <timeless> ├──3,360.63 MB (91.95%) -- heap-unclassified
# [22:34] * timeless sighs
# [22:35] * timeless needs to make an Xgb file to cause firefox to crash already
# [22:35] <timeless> Local Disk (C:) 1.70 GB free
# [22:35] <timeless> Swap (Z:)
# [22:35] <zewt> "view image" on a big canvas is a fun one
# [22:35] <timeless> 2.51 GB free of 4.08 GB
# [22:36] <timeless> zewt: err, the goal is to cause firefox not to have memory to allocate space for the irc client
# [22:36] <timeless> not to just arbitrarily kill firefox
# [22:37] * timeless tries to remember how to create a 2.5gb file on windows
# [22:37] <timeless> preferably a sparse file
# [22:37] <zewt> dd from linux over cifs
# [22:37] <zewt> heh
# [22:37] <timeless> ss64.com/nt/fsutil.html
# [22:38] <timeless> fsutil file setvaliddata sparse number-that-means-2.5gb
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# [22:44] <timeless> Z:\>fsutil file createnew z:\limitswap3 1073741824
# [22:44] <timeless> File z:\limitswap3 is created
# [22:47] <timeless> ok, now i have <10mb of swap available
# [22:47] * timeless prepares to die
# [22:48] <zewt> timeless.exe
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# [22:58] <jgraham> Just saw The Nutcrasked. Had a man in a Fez. Remined me of shepazu. Decided we need a ballet about the W3C.
# [22:58] <jgraham> You might think an opera would be more obvious, but clearly if I propose that people would just think I'm biased.
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# [23:00] * astearns is shuddering at the thought of a bikeshedding aria
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# [23:04] <kennyluck> paul_irish, comment on http://h5bp.github.com/igotmybeanie/ . I think you might want to mention the input box at the bottom of the HTML Living Standard. As far as I can tell, that's the simplest way how you send feedback.
# [23:06] <annevk> I wish someone else could write these emails for me: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/1312.html
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# [23:08] <annevk> I like Adrian, but I also wish I didn't have to do his homework
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# [23:11] <divya> kennyluck: thnx will add that in.
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# [23:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: you cannot upload images I think, you have to upload them to imgur or some such and link them
# [23:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: see e.g. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Use_cases_for_timed_tracks_rendered_over_video_by_the_UA
# [23:15] <zewt> depending on free services like imgur long-term always makes me nervous
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# [23:16] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, ok.
# [23:17] <Luck> hiya , can anybody tell me , do you use the new data element or still keep the <time>?
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yeah, that's why I wanted to upload to the wiki - then the images have a better chance of staying around as long as the page itself.
# [23:17] <annevk> I guess you can use http://junkyard.damowmow.com/
# [23:17] <annevk> and get the password from Hixie
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> I can just put it on my own site I guess.
# [23:18] <TabAtkins> Luck: What are you using it for? (If you don't already have a data-consumer in mind, don't bother with it.)
# [23:19] <annevk> There's probably some way to upload images, it has file search and things like that...
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# [23:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: No, Special:Upload explicitly says that uploading is disabled.
# [23:19] <TabAtkins> I was hoping it would change when I got admin powers.
# [23:19] <TabAtkins> But no luck.
# [23:20] <divya> kennyluck: is this you? https://github.com/kennyluck
# [23:21] <annevk> TabAtkins: aah, maybe Lachy can change that
# [23:21] <TabAtkins> annevk: That would be cool.
# [23:21] <divya> o it is.
# [23:22] <Lachy> TabAtkins, do you know how to change it?
# [23:22] <Luck> k
# [23:22] <Lachy> does it require modifying LocalSettings.php?
# [23:22] <kennyluck> divya, yeah.
# [23:22] <AryehGregor> Lachy, yes. Should be $wgEnableUploads or something.
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# [23:22] <divya> added it here kennyluck https://github.com/h5bp/movethewebforward/commit/dd946130fb69ba8d7a0631ba7861f15107a164e4
# [23:22] <kennyluck> divya, not being a web developer, I am not using github often though.
# [23:22] <Lachy> AryehGregor, can you do it?
# [23:22] <AryehGregor> Lachy, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgEnableUploads
# [23:22] * AryehGregor pokes
# [23:22] <kennyluck> divya, OK.
# [23:23] <divya> ha okay :)
# [23:23] <divya> it was easy to ref in the commit tho :D
# [23:23] <Lachy> AryehGregor, btw, did you set up an SVN server for the wiki? I was wondering why I saw some .svn folders in there
# [23:23] <AryehGregor> Lachy, it's an SVN checkout.
# [23:23] <kennyluck> divya, thanks for attributing that to me :p
# [23:23] <AryehGregor> Because I wanted some feature from the trunk version at some point.
# [23:23] <AryehGregor> I can't remember what.
# [23:23] <AryehGregor> It should be safe to overwrite it with a downloaded tarball.
# [23:23] <AryehGregor> (if no one has already)
# [23:24] <jgraham> Didnt you want your html5ified version?
# [23:24] <jgraham> Or am I imagining things?
# [23:24] <Lachy> ok. I thought maybe you'd started maintaining it in SVN. I didn't think that you'd checked it out directly from wikimedia's server
# [23:24] <paul_irish> kennyluck: thank you. will do https://github.com/h5bp/movethewebforward/issues/41
# [23:25] <AryehGregor> What user does the web server run as?
# [23:25] <AryehGregor> Not whatwikiuser, I guess?
# [23:25] <Lachy> AryehGregor, I haven't overwritten it. But I did make some minor changes to LocalSettings.php to disable user registrations, and to update the ConfirmEdit extension
# [23:25] <paul_irish> kennyluck: oops divya did it already. i see now
# [23:25] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, try now.
# [23:25] <Lachy> yes, it's whatwikiuser
# [23:25] <AryehGregor> Oh, okay.
# [23:25] <AryehGregor> No need for chmod, then.
# [23:26] <Lachy> oh. wait, maybe it's not.
# [23:26] <Lachy> it's the same server as the blog and all of Hixie's other stuff
# [23:26] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yup, seems to work. Or at least, it brings up an upload form now.
# [23:27] <TabAtkins> The files I want to upload are at home, though, so I'll wait to actually try it out.
# [23:27] <TabAtkins> Thanks, you two.
# [23:27] * AryehGregor chmods to 777, so it should theoretically work
# [23:27] <AryehGregor> The reason it's disabled by default is because directory permissions are usually wrong by default, so it will just give an error.
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# [23:29] <kennyluck> Nice, I am glad that Mozilla's "mentored bugs" are mentioned on http://movethewebforward.org/ .
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# [23:37] <kennyluck> paul_irish, I personally think subscribing to certain HTML5 features of interest in Bugzilla (Mozilla/WebKit) would be something nice if you care about a subset of HTML5 features but not all. Though I am not sure if it's too advanced to put into the "learn" section. (and perhaps voting in Bugizlla, which is supposed to help browser vendors prioritize features, but I am not sure if browser vendors actually look at that)
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# [23:39] <kennyluck> I quite like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28HTML5%29 for this aspect.
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# Session Close: Fri Dec 02 00:00:00 2011

The end :)