/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-04 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  106. # [04:25] <linclark> I see that the microdata dom api is being considered for removal?
  107. # [04:25] <linclark> is there a link with the reasoning?
  108. # [04:27] <kennyluck> huh? never heard of this info...
  109. # [04:28] <linclark> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#microdata-dom-api
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  111. # [04:31] <Hixie> linclark: not being considered for removal by me, but no idea if anyone else is considering arguing to remove it
  112. # [04:31] <linclark> Hixie: ah, ok, good to know... thanks!
  113. # [04:31] <Hixie> linclark: at this point there's little chance it'll be removed from the whatwg html standard unless someone has a really good argument, e.g. "we tried implementing it in a browser and nobody used it"
  114. # [04:32] <linclark> yeah, it seemed strange that the rest of microdata was still yellow but that the API for doing anything with it was red
  115. # [04:34] <xylron> Hey, quick note: in the latest complete WHATWG editors draft, in the references section, the WebVTT reference has a heading that reads "[WEBWORKERS]". That looks like a copy and paste issue.
  116. # [04:34] <Hixie> linclark: oh is it marked as such in the spec?
  117. # [04:35] <Hixie> so it is
  118. # [04:35] <Hixie> apparently "lpeng564" changed it
  119. # [04:35] <Hixie> wonder who that is
  120. # [04:37] <Hixie> looks like that's the only change that account made
  121. # [04:37] <Hixie> weird
  122. # [04:38] <zewt> hacked by microdata haters
  123. # [04:39] <Hixie> the way the database is set up makes it pretty trivial for vandalism to be fixed on the backend
  124. # [04:39] <Hixie> (i never implemented the frontend since it's never been an issue)
  125. # [04:39] <Hixie> literally every change ever made is logged, i don't just change the state
  126. # [04:39] <Hixie> and to get the current state i just ask for the last change
  127. # [04:43] <linclark> Hixie: yeah, after I saw that it wasn't your email address, I thought it might be something like that
  128. # [04:44] <Hixie> i fixed it
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  561. # [15:20] <annevk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXh9RQCvxmg#t=6m30s is so awesome
  562. # [15:20] <annevk> I should extract some part to use as an example somewhere
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  588. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> <biesi> why is it that way?
  589. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> <Hixie> i don't understand the question
  590. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> <Hixie> it almost sounded like you were trying to obtain some sort of logical explanation for browser behaviour
  591. # [16:47] <annevk> that's an old one; still funny :)
  592. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> Yeah, 2006 :)
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  597. # [17:19] <annevk> Ms2ger: do you think it would be fine to define the new methods as if they passed a DocumentFragment to our existing methods?
  598. # [17:19] <Ms2ger> Sure
  599. # [17:19] <annevk> Ms2ger: e.g. append("test", node) passes a DocumentFragment consisting of a Text node "test" and a node to concept-node-append
  600. # [17:20] <annevk> The alternative would be to rewrite cocnept-node-append and friends to deal with lists, but this model seems somewhat clearer
  601. # [17:20] <annevk> At least, to the extent I managed to think about it
  602. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> Yeah, DocumentFragments are little more than lists anyway
  603. # [17:21] <annevk> never mind, it does not work for DocumentType and such :(
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  605. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> Sounds like a positive effect :)
  606. # [17:22] <annevk> I'm not sure why we should support document.append(DocumentType), but some people think we should
  607. # [17:22] <annevk> of course it also means document.append(DocumentType, Element) should work (if document does not have them), but that requires changes to the existing algorithm
  608. # [17:26] <annevk> maybe it should be like
  609. # [17:26] <annevk> * one argument: pass it on
  610. # [17:27] <annevk> * more than one argument: DocumentFragment it or throw "HierarchyRequestError" if it does not fit in a DocumentFragment
  611. # [17:27] <annevk> (and then if it did not throw, pass it on)
  612. # [17:27] <annevk> so you have the same limitations, just a cooler API
  613. # [17:29] <annevk> making algorithms more complex to support ancient legacy bestowed upon us by SGML seems overkill
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  616. # [17:42] <annevk> so given that
  617. # [17:43] <annevk> node.prepend(x) -> concept-node-pre-insert x into node before node's first child
  618. # [17:43] <annevk> node.append(x) -> concept-node-append
  619. # [17:44] <annevk> node.before(x) -> concept-node-pre-insert x into node's parent before node
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  621. # [17:45] <annevk> node.after(x) -> concept-node-pre-insert x into node's parent before node's next sibling
  622. # [17:46] <annevk> node.replace(x) -> concept-node-replace node with x within node's parent
  623. # [17:46] <annevk> node.remove() -> concept-node-remove node from node's parent
  624. # [17:47] <annevk> plus the appropriate null checks for parent
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  662. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> annevk, SELECT user_name FROM user WHERE user_edit_count < 2 or similar.
  663. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Hixie, BTW, "if [ ( !" is wrong because ( initiates a subshell. You probably want "if [ \( !" (if the [ command even allows grouping, never tried).
  664. # [20:46] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  665. # [20:46] <Hixie> aaah
  666. # [20:46] <Hixie> thanks
  667. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Hmm, maybe not.
  668. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> [ in bash is a builtin.
  669. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> But I think it follows the same escaping rules as real commands.
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  675. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> Yeah, seems to.
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  697. # [22:46] <bencc> is the client required to send a UserAgent string when establishing a websocket connection?
  698. # [22:46] <Hixie> when i was writing the spec, it was required not to
  699. # [22:47] <Hixie> no idea what the spec says now though
  700. # [22:47] <bencc> why not to?
  701. # [22:47] <bencc> if you only send it once, why not send it?
  702. # [22:47] <Hixie> because it hurts small browsers
  703. # [22:48] <bencc> firefox sends the UseAgent while chrome doesn't
  704. # [22:48] <bencc> so if I need the user agent, I should send it myself after the connection?
  705. # [22:48] <Hixie> you should not need the user agent
  706. # [22:49] <bencc> if there is a bug, I want to know what browser cause it
  707. # [22:49] <Hixie> is there a bug?
  708. # [22:49] <bencc> there are always bugs
  709. # [22:50] <bencc> not with the websocket implementation but anything
  710. # [22:50] <Hixie> then file the bug with the browser vendor and have them fix it
  711. # [22:50] <bencc> :)
  712. # [22:50] <Hixie> working around the bug will just make matters worse
  713. # [22:50] <Hixie> on the long run
  714. # [22:50] <bencc> that's not what I meant
  715. # [22:51] <Hixie> but it's what i meant :-)
  716. # [22:51] <bencc> I want to have statistics about my users, to know what browsers they use
  717. # [22:51] <Hixie> why?
  718. # [22:51] <Hixie> it shouldn't make any difference to you
  719. # [22:51] <bencc> are you serious?
  720. # [22:51] <Hixie> yes
  721. # [22:51] <bencc> all browsers work 100% ?
  722. # [22:51] <bencc> no bugs? no missing features?
  723. # [22:52] <Hixie> missing features you can feature-test for, you don't need to know which browser it is
  724. # [22:52] <Hixie> bugs, you should ignore, and let the browser vendors fix it, instead of hacking around them
  725. # [22:52] <Hixie> certainly shouldn't sniff for the browser to work around them
  726. # [22:52] <Hixie> if you do that you will make it harder for them to fix the bug
  727. # [22:52] <Hixie> not to mention that it means you are prioritising certain browsers over others
  728. # [22:53] <Hixie> which gives smaller browsers a competitive disadvantage
  729. # [22:53] <bencc> I don't care about politics
  730. # [22:53] <bencc> I want my app to work
  731. # [22:54] <Hixie> this isn't politics, it's the good of the human race
  732. # [22:54] <Hixie> anyway, we're talking about hypotheticals here
  733. # [22:54] <Hixie> it's easier to discuss concrete cases
  734. # [22:55] <Hixie> hence my question:
  735. # [22:55] <Hixie> is there a bug?
  736. # [22:55] <bencc> so if a plane crash, the model is not important
  737. # [22:55] <bencc> just let the company fix it
  738. # [22:55] <bencc> they should guess it happened
  739. # [22:55] <Hixie> if you're building a plane on WebSocket then you need your head examined :-)
  740. # [22:55] <smaug____> :)
  741. # [22:56] <bencc> no, I'm building a web app and I put most of my time making it compatible with opera
  742. # [22:56] <wilhelm> Which of our many bugs are causing you trouble?
  743. # [22:56] <bencc> because most of the users in the world use it
  744. # [22:56] <Hixie> bencc: you shouldn't put your time into making your web app compatible with _any_ browser
  745. # [22:56] <Hixie> bencc: write to the spec, and if the browsers are buggy, file bugs with the browsers
  746. # [22:58] <bencc> that's exactly how gmail work
  747. # [22:58] <Hixie> i would definitely not recommend taking gmail as an example for how to build a web app
  748. # [22:58] <bencc> they implemented the chat and video with html5 5 years ago
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  752. # [23:03] <bencc> should the browser show a warning when using secure websocket with self signed certificate?
  753. # [23:03] <Hixie> no, it should just disallow it from connecting
  754. # [23:04] <bencc> but browsers allow pages of self signed certificates with a warning
  755. # [23:05] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  756. # [23:05] <Hixie> yeah, that's dubious too. but at least they can put up an interstitial to explain to the user that they're about to have their identity stolen.
  757. # [23:06] <bencc> about feature detection, can I detect the websocket version on the client?
  758. # [23:06] <bencc> I know I can see the version on the server
  759. # [23:07] <Hixie> aw man, did they add a version to the protocol?
  760. # [23:07] <bencc> ?
  761. # [23:07] <Hixie> back when i was editing the spec, the protocol was not versioned
  762. # [23:07] <bencc> why not?
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  764. # [23:07] <Hixie> because versioning on the web is even worse than user agent sniffing
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  766. # [23:08] <bencc> wow.
  767. # [23:08] <bencc> this is a lost cause :)
  768. # [23:08] <Hixie> versioning is unnecessary on the web
  769. # [23:08] <Hixie> html, css, js... they all work fine without versioning
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  771. # [23:10] <Ms2ger> Why did we implement the stupid version of websockets again?
  772. # [23:10] <Philip`> Version numbers are useful when you spend two years tweaking fundamental aspects of the protocol and make everyone end up implementing different revisions of the specification
  773. # [23:12] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, don't do that :-P
  774. # [23:13] <bencc> Philip`: thank you
  775. # [23:13] <Philip`> Not everyone has enough self-control to avoid doing that :-)
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  777. # [23:24] <jgraham_> I believe websokets tells you the version number in the header, doesn't it?
  778. # [23:25] <bencc> yes but the client doesn't know its version
  779. # [23:26] <jgraham_> ?
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  782. # [23:27] <jgraham> Anyway ignore all versions that aren't -17
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  784. # [23:27] <jgraham> I imagine everyone will fix their implementations to the RFC soon enough
  785. # [23:28] <jgraham> (I think -17 is indicated by 13 in the version field or something stupid)
  786. # [23:28] <jgraham> (yeah it is)
  787. # [23:29] <jgraham> Anyway, I can't work out why you care about the protocol version on the client
  788. # [23:30] <jgraham> I mean obviously if you *do* care it is trivial to find out, assuming you control oth ends of the wire; just send it as part of your subprotocol e.g. in the first message
  789. # [23:32] <bencc> jgraham: but if the client doesn't support the required version, why send the first request anyway?
  790. # [23:32] <bencc> than you should use long-polling or something else instead
  791. # [23:33] <jgraham> I don't understand what situation you are worried about
  792. # [23:33] <bencc> a situation where the client has websockets but not the required version
  793. # [23:34] <bencc> how come Philip` understood me and you and Hixie don't?
  794. # [23:34] <jgraham> What case is there where you are able to establish a websocket connection, but you can't actually use that connection?
  795. # [23:34] <bencc> why should you try to establish a connection if it's won't work?
  796. # [23:35] <bencc> I forgot
  797. # [23:35] <jgraham> It seems like a reasonably good way of telling that it won't work
  798. # [23:35] <bencc> yes
  799. # [23:35] <bencc> do I have air bag in this car?
  800. # [23:35] <bencc> wait, just crash against the wall
  801. # [23:35] <bencc> no, I don't
  802. # [23:35] <bencc> are you serious?
  803. # [23:36] <bencc> are you the guys that writing the specs?
  804. # [23:36] <bencc> that's scary :)
  805. # [23:37] <jgraham> I am rally trying to be helpful here...
  806. # [23:37] <jgraham> *really
  807. # [23:37] <jgraham> What is the concrete problem you are trying to solve?
  808. # [23:38] <jgraham> Is it "I need to work with outdated versions of chrome"?
  809. # [23:38] <jgraham> (and safari, maybe? I don't know if they shipped the insecure stuff too)
  810. # [23:38] <bencc> I shouldn't try to connect with the client if the websocket on it are "broken"
  811. # [23:38] <bencc> or with an old version
  812. # [23:38] <bencc> what's complicated about it?
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  814. # [23:38] <jgraham> No, that's not a problem
  815. # [23:39] <bencc> how come it's not a problem?
  816. # [23:39] <jgraham> That's a statement of something you want, but you didn't explain why you want that beyond some irrelevent metaphor about safety critical systems like airbags
  817. # [23:39] <bencc> because it's stupid to first try to use websocket and than if it fails use long-polling
  818. # [23:39] <bencc> you are wasting requests
  819. # [23:40] <bencc> and the connection takes more time
  820. # [23:40] <bencc> so the user experience your client have is bad
  821. # [23:40] <bencc> do you understand this?
  822. # [23:40] <bencc> or maybe not?
  823. # [23:40] <jgraham> Yes, but on the other hand it will also cover situations where websockets fail for some other reason e.g. due o special proxies or firewalls or wahtever
  824. # [23:41] <bencc> those are two different cases
  825. # [23:41] <jgraham> I agree that the latency could be a problem for some aplications. Is your application hihly sensitive to the initial latency?
  826. # [23:41] <bencc> not it's not
  827. # [23:41] <bencc> my users like to wait
  828. # [23:42] <bencc> it's a website for s&m so they like to suffer
  829. # [23:42] <Philip`> bencc: I wasn't trying to agree with you, I was just trying to be unhelpfully snarky about the IETF
  830. # [23:42] <bencc> ok
  831. # [23:42] <jgraham> Well with my approach you can cover them with one codepath for the short-term need (old versions of frequently updated browsers) and the long term case (intermediaries that block websockets)
  832. # [23:43] <jgraham> bencc: It is entirely non-obvious that your particular use of websockets depends on being able to establish a connection wih minimum latency
  833. # [23:44] <bencc> forget it
  834. # [23:44] <bencc> this idiotic discussion is a waste of time
  835. # [23:44] <jgraham> Consider something where the page loads and then one has to have user interaction before establishing the real conenction
  836. # [23:45] <jgraham> The time for the user to interact with the page is going to be way longer than the time to set up a connection, so you can create a trial connection during page load
  837. # [23:45] <jgraham> and then already know if it will work when the actual connection is needed
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  839. # [23:47] <jgraham> OTOH if you are trying to build a search engine that pulls the results over websokets than that delay might be undesirable (although I note that you will get it in the "broken intermediary" case anyway, and that in the other case it will only persist until browsers fix their implemenations to the latest spec)
  840. # [23:48] <jgraham> (for that example I assume that the search engine tries to pull the results on page load)
  841. # [23:51] <jgraham> (oh it seems that gecko haven't updated to -17 yet but chrome has. Still I guess the server should support both)
  842. # [23:51] <jgraham> (bth -10 and -17 that is)
  843. # [23:51] <jgraham> bencc: I am sorry you think it has been a waste of time. I have really tried to help you solve your problem. I'm sorry if my suggestions didn't match the solution you had in mind.
  844. # Session Close: Mon Dec 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)