/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 05 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I think what bencc would like is something JS-visible that says what version of WebSockets the client implements.
  8. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> So you can do if (WebSocket.version < 17) { fallback() }
  9. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> This seems reasonable when the protocol is undergoing so many iterations.
  10. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> I guess no one thought it would be this many, though.
  11. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> And we'd have to keep it around forever as a meaningless legacy constant.
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  13. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> bencc, so basically I think we're just saying we're okay with annoying people in the short term because a) anything else would make the APIs or protocol more complicated in the long term, even though it will eventually serve no purpose; and b) nobody thought the protocol would take this long to stabilize, so it didn't seem necessary.
  14. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> And now, of course, we've *definitely* arrived at the final protocol version, right?
  15. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> So it's still not necessary.
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  17. # [00:38] <zewt> *cough*
  18. # [00:41] <bencc> ok
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  65. # [02:50] <roc> hmm
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  135. # [06:34] <zewt> youtube is using onmouseup events for link clicks in search results instead of onclick : |
  136. # [06:35] <zewt> inspires something less than hope when major sites can get something so basic so horribly wrong
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  146. # [07:31] <heycam> when was svg/mathml support first added to the html parser?
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  161. # [08:10] <nessy> zewt: I think they are simple <a> tags around the clickable text - I don't quite follow what the problem is
  162. # [08:11] <zewt> select text in the search results; release the mouse and it treats it as a click
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  176. # [08:47] <zcorpan> heycam|away: somewhere between 2007-10-26 and 2009-10-27
  177. # [08:48] <zcorpan> heycam|away: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-April/014372.html
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  190. # [09:11] <hsivonen> Are IANA registries versioned?
  191. # [09:15] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  193. # [09:16] <heycam> zcorpan, thanks
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  200. # [09:27] <tantek> hsivonen, you mean like wiki pages? not that I've ever seen.
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  209. # [10:01] * hsivonen disagrees with Hixie characterizing transparent content models by "simply"
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  214. # [10:12] <nessy> zewt: that's not what happens to me, strange. What browser version and platform are you on?
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  233. # [11:18] <annevk> zewt: the problem with UTF-16 is that it is ingrained in many APIs (which I suppose is not really UTF-16 per se, but rather the 16bit code unit system we have)
  234. # [11:18] <annevk> zewt: so it comes up all the time
  235. # [11:18] <annevk> zewt: whereas legacy encodings is not really an implementation issue, it is a platform issue
  236. # [11:19] <annevk> both are bad and like you I don't think we can fix the 16bit code unit mess
  237. # [11:19] * jgraham doesn't see the value of arguing whether UTF16 or legacy encodings are the worse issue when everyone involved thinks they are both bad
  238. # [11:20] <annevk> the point is that one is worse for the platform and the other is worse for implementors
  239. # [11:20] <annevk> hsivonen was arguing the implementor point, zewt the platform point
  240. # [11:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: there's really no point arguing which is worse. my main point was that when someone implies UTF-16 is OK for interchange, the credibility of what they otherwise say about encoding problems goes down
  241. # [11:26] <michel_v_> imho, utf16 was a naive solution, like "extended ascii" sets
  242. # [11:31] <zcorpan> now why hasn't firefox implemented MessageChannel yet?
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  244. # [11:32] <annevk> smaug____ thinks it's too complicated
  245. # [11:32] <annevk> not sure if that's the actual reason
  246. # [11:33] <zcorpan> -_-
  247. # [11:33] <zcorpan> i'd say, too late to bikeshed that api
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  249. # [11:37] <hsivonen> creepy. I can see my what I've searched on Android Market in the logs Android keeps on my device
  250. # [11:38] <hsivonen> seems like a bad idea to dump request URLs in a log file
  251. # [11:38] <annevk> kennyluck: thanks for sending that email btw, if I hadn't thanked you already; lets hope site-comments agrees :)
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  255. # [11:55] <annevk> AryehGregor: so there's no special pages for such operations on the wiki?
  256. # [11:55] <annevk> AryehGregor: mkay
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  258. # [12:04] <smaug____> MessageChannel and ports etc are horrible
  259. # [12:04] <smaug____> but that isn't the reason why it hasn't been implemented in FF
  260. # [12:04] <smaug____> bent might know more about the implementation
  261. # [12:05] <smaug____> or the reasons to not implement it
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  263. # [12:08] <zcorpan> i agree that ports are confusing
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  266. # [12:09] <jgraham> Why are they confusing? Or what's the better solution?
  267. # [12:09] * jgraham is curious because he used a port-like API for something unrelated
  268. # [12:10] <zcorpan> i couldn't think of a better solution when we implemented ports (and workers) in opera, and i haven't come up with a better solution now, either
  269. # [12:11] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  270. # [12:12] <zcorpan> not sure why, maybe it's unnatural to have stuff going on in multiple places (windows or workers), and it's not always clear in the spec what's happening where
  271. # [12:12] <smaug____> and some ports aren't working etc
  272. # [12:12] <smaug____> (I mean if the port has been sent to elsewhere)
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  284. # [13:09] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-encoding-woes
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  295. # [14:15] <annevk> we should have a shorthand for "If this throws an exception, re-throw the exception and terminate these steps." or make it the default somehow
  296. # [14:16] <jgraham> Ecmascript just makes it the default
  297. # [14:17] <jgraham> I mean that is how exceptions work in general so it is very surprising that it is not like that by default in specs
  298. # [14:17] <jgraham> "If an algorithm is defined to “throw an exception”, execution of the algorithm is terminated and no result is returned. The calling algorithms are also terminated, until an algorithm step is reached that explicitly deals with the exception, using terminology such as “If an exception was thrown…”. Once such an algorithm step has been encountered the exception is no longer considered to have occurred."
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  305. # [14:38] <hsivonen> hmm. why do Opera Mobile and Opera Mini disagree about the viewport width in em on the same device?
  306. # [14:39] <hsivonen> more curiously still, why does Opera Mobile disagree with Opera Mobile Emulator launched with the profile for the device in question?
  307. # [14:39] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925212153.dsl.bell.ca)
  308. # [14:39] <hsivonen> kinda defeats the point of the emulator
  309. # [14:40] <Velmont> hsivonen: They are quite different though. Maybe it's because presto version is different, or because Mini is just quite different.
  310. # [14:40] <Velmont> Wow, that was a bad sentence. :-)
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  312. # [14:41] <annevk> http://blog.mozilla.com/dherman/2011/12/01/now-thats-a-nice-stache/ is kind of interesting in the context of whether we should have chaining in our APIs
  313. # [14:41] <annevk> I'm flip flopping again I think to "no"
  314. # [14:42] <hsivonen> whoever does QA on Opera Mobile Emulator might be interested in comparing http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/width-in-em.html with Opera Mobile on the actual devices that the emulator claims to emulate
  315. # [14:43] <hsivonen> I see a discrepancy between Galaxy Tab 10.1 on the emulator vs. real device
  316. # [14:44] <hsivonen> (I tested portrait mode)
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  318. # [14:46] <hsivonen> Velmont: there's no inherent reason why Opera Mini and Opera Mobile on a given device should consider the view port to have a different width measured in ems by default
  319. # [14:46] <hsivonen> sure, Mini and Mobile could simply have a different default font size
  320. # [14:46] <hsivonen> or a different device pixel to CSS px ratio
  321. # [14:47] <hsivonen> but neither of those needs to arise from the architecture differences
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  326. # [15:00] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#mutation-methods
  327. # [15:00] <annevk> and e.g. the end of http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#element IDL if you want to see the IDL syntax
  328. # [15:01] <jgraham> annevk: You need to explain wht a macro is
  329. # [15:02] <jgraham> Also, it isn't yet clear why it needs to be a macro rather than a function that returns node
  330. # [15:02] <annevk> that bit doesn't really matter
  331. # [15:02] <annevk> I suspect it will change over time
  332. # [15:03] <jgraham> Fair enough, but you introduced a new and confusing spec construct :)
  333. # [15:03] <annevk> well you grasped what it did within 1 minute
  334. # [15:04] <annevk> and I'm targeting you with this text, so I'm not too worried
  335. # [15:04] <annevk> I need to write some domintro boxes too
  336. # [15:04] <hsivonen> When Galaxy Tab 10.1 is in the portrait mode, Firefox Aurora, the default browser and Opera emulator think it's 50em wide. Opera Mobile think it's 40em wide and Mini thinks it's 30em wide
  337. # [15:05] <hsivonen> big differences in defaults
  338. # [15:05] <jgraham> Well in this case yeah. But only because it was so simple that it wasn't really needed :)
  339. # [15:05] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-229-127.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: kennyluck)
  340. # [15:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: Sounds like it could be a bug, but I'm not really sure who to talk to
  341. # [15:05] <zcorpan> annevk: webidl is confusing as it is. don't make it worse. :)
  342. # [15:05] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  343. # [15:05] <annevk> <dfn> names are just names
  344. # [15:05] <annevk> zcorpan: suggestion?
  345. # [15:06] <zcorpan> annevk: use overloading
  346. # [15:06] <annevk> we have used this construct before, just with other names, not sure what works best
  347. # [15:06] <annevk> zcorpan: doesn't work
  348. # [15:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: the Mobile vs. Mobile Emulator discrepancy intuitively has to be a bug
  349. # [15:06] * Joins: linclark (~clark@c-67-186-35-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  350. # [15:07] <annevk> m(X...); m(A...); != m(X | A...)
  351. # [15:07] <annevk> ;
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  353. # [15:08] <zcorpan> annevk: what's the difference?
  354. # [15:09] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  355. # [15:10] <zcorpan> the latter can mix X and A ?
  356. # [15:10] <annevk> zcorpan: correct
  357. # [15:10] <annevk> zcorpan: see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14188
  358. # [15:11] <annevk> I'd be happy with better syntax
  359. # [15:11] <annevk> A | X... is not especially clear
  360. # [15:11] <annevk> I guess you could do (A | X)... but that's even worse
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  362. # [15:16] <zcorpan> void append(Node or DOMString... nodes)
  363. # [15:18] <annevk> Document or DocumentType or DOMString
  364. # [15:18] <annevk> I guess that could work
  365. # [15:18] <annevk> suggest it in the bug
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  367. # [15:20] <zcorpan> done
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  375. # [15:41] <annevk> http://wasteaguid.info/ haha
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  377. # [15:44] <jarek> is there any way to have the same DOM node displayed in two different places?
  378. # [15:45] <jarek> in javascript objects are copied always by reference, it would make sense if we could have several elements on the screen that reference to the same DOM object
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  380. # [15:46] <jarek> s/it would make sense/it could make sense
  381. # [15:47] <annevk> that would have to be a CSS feature
  382. # [15:47] <annevk> CSS creates the render tree, not the DOM
  383. # [15:47] <jarek> annevk: yeah, I have already told about -moz-element()
  384. # [15:48] <smaug____> you can use an element as a background
  385. # [15:48] <jarek> s/have/was
  386. # [15:48] <jarek> sorry for typos
  387. # [15:48] <smaug____> yes, -moz-element
  388. # [15:48] <jarek> but there is nothing like this on other browsers
  389. # [15:49] <smaug____> jarek: if the element itself would have two representations, element.style would be strange
  390. # [15:49] <smaug____> or computedStyle
  391. # [15:49] <smaug____> jarek: file bugs to get -moz-element like functionality to other browsers
  392. # [15:50] * smaug____ doesn't remember if CSS WG is spec'ing -moz-element
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  394. # [15:56] <david_carlisle> annevk: "My collegae Karl "
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  396. # [16:00] <annevk> thanks
  397. # [16:00] <annevk> there's so many red in technical posts it's hard to spot the real mistakes sometimes
  398. # [16:03] <jgraham> You obviously meant to write collage, reflecting him as the sum of many pieces of his environment
  399. # [16:05] <annevk> heh, Karl would approve of that
  400. # [16:06] <annevk> next time I'll just go with friend
  401. # [16:06] <annevk> much easier to spell
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  412. # [16:33] <zewt> annevk: we were talking about utf-16 as an interchange format, not about utf-16 as an API format, FWIW; anyway yeah both cases suck :)
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  418. # [16:45] <bga> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1257818/javascript-distributed-computing
  419. # [16:45] * annevk wonders where ms2ger is
  420. # [16:46] * annevk will patch the innerHTML spec
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  425. # [16:56] <jgraham> annevk: Maybe Ms2ger is having unplanned downtime
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  429. # [17:03] <hober> miketaylr: ok, we're at bocoup; thanks! :)
  430. # [17:03] <miketaylr> hober: cool! say hi to rick et al.
  431. # [17:03] <hober> will do
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  435. # [17:17] <annevk> do we need to say something about this (UTF-32) in HTML: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/1370.html
  436. # [17:17] <annevk> though I suspect that if nobody supports UTF-32 it's more likely the content is mislabeled
  437. # [17:19] <Hixie> as far as HTML is concerned, UTF-32 is a myth
  438. # [17:20] <annevk> more and more browsers treat it as such too these days
  439. # [17:20] <annevk> I guess I'm not going to worry about it
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  446. # [17:28] <zewt> oh god, is the "other glenn" really trying to insist that browsers should support utf-32
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  448. # [17:32] <annevk> I wish it was public who ran for the TAG
  449. # [17:33] <jgraham> It's funny-sad that it isn't
  450. # [17:34] <annevk> every time people come up with some supposedly never changing technology it either has changed already or is going to change in the future
  451. # [17:34] <Hixie> who does the voting?
  452. # [17:34] <annevk> so funny
  453. # [17:35] <annevk> last example: UTF-8
  454. # [17:35] <annevk> Hixie: AC
  455. # [17:35] <Hixie> k
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  461. # [17:44] <annevk> zewt: I wonder if you're just replying to him to make it clear there's a different saner Glenn too :p
  462. # [17:46] <jgraham> Hehe, I wondered the same :)
  463. # [17:47] <Philip`> Or they'll think he's talking to himself and clearly even more insane
  464. # [17:49] <jgraham> Maybe he is insane and the two Glenns are different parts of his personality. Insane, but not creative enough to invent unique names.
  465. # [17:51] <zewt> believe me, if I was saying the things this guy did, I'd use a different name
  466. # [17:51] <zewt> did/does
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  470. # [18:02] <Hixie> where is this?
  471. # [18:03] <annevk> "json" thread
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  518. # [19:37] <rniwa> annevk: are you still there?
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  524. # [19:48] <bga> http://mobile.twitter.com/bga_/status/143761739056553984
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  570. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> araghhahgh. I cannot believe how broken Google Docs' text selection implementation is.
  571. # [20:45] * AryehGregor is glad he never tried to spec Selection.modify()
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  594. # [21:27] <Ms2ger> jgraham, s/unplanned downtime/life/, sorry
  595. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> Also, s/#orthogonalApi/#uselessAcademia/
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  599. # [21:38] <zewt> gross, IE also supports utf-32, not just webkit
  600. # [21:39] <zewt> it's just a bit pickier (doesn't work if there's no doctype)
  601. # [21:43] <zewt> (ff8 interprets it as utf-16, in a sort of confusing way--the intervening nulls aren't rendered as a replacement character, so it looks like it's being rendered as plaintext)
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  619. # [22:10] <zewt> (apparently ie and webkit will also autodetect utf-32; sometimes I hate the web)
  620. # [22:10] <Velmont> But do anyone really use it...
  621. # [22:11] <zewt> no idea (but it seems like everything that can be used, gets used)
  622. # [22:12] <Velmont> zewt: Well, but Mozilla is killing sync xhr2, and breaking a ton in that.
  623. # [22:12] <zewt> er, what?
  624. # [22:12] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  625. # [22:12] <zewt> "you can't do that" heh
  626. # [22:12] <Velmont> zewt: Can't do what?
  627. # [22:12] <jgraham> I doubt they are planning to kill sync ahr
  628. # [22:12] <jgraham> *xhr
  629. # [22:12] <zewt> yeah i seriously doubt it
  630. # [22:13] <jgraham> Just in new contexts
  631. # [22:13] <zewt> blocking new features from sync xhr, but not breaking existing support
  632. # [22:13] <jgraham> i.e. when you want xhr 2 features suddenly the sync options doesn't work
  633. # [22:13] <zewt> (rather, sync-xhr-in-the-ui-thread)
  634. # [22:13] <jgraham> right
  635. # [22:13] <zewt> (an important distinction)
  636. # [22:13] <jgraham> Killing UTF-32 seems relatively easy
  637. # [22:13] <jgraham> by comparison
  638. # [22:14] <Velmont> jgraham: sync xhr2, - not sync xhr. :-)
  639. # [22:14] <zewt> jgraham: maybe, but IE and WebKit both have their niche sets of effectively-browser-specific pages that might make those vendors hesitant to remove it
  640. # [22:14] <zewt> well, by comparison, yes
  641. # [22:14] <jgraham> I can even sort of imagine microsoft doing it in their standards more
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  643. # [22:14] <jgraham> *mode
  644. # [22:14] <jgraham> I can't iamgine apple agreeing to it though
  645. # [22:15] <jgraham> Velmont: right, but that won't break a ton of pages I expect
  646. # [22:15] <zewt> but not autodetecting UTF-32 might be easier to do (than removing it outright)
  647. # [22:15] <jgraham> If it does they won't do it
  648. # [22:15] <jgraham> They have market forces just like everyone else
  649. # [22:15] <Velmont> jgraham: Don't you think? Well, I've used sync xhr with cors a looot :-)
  650. # [22:15] <zewt> currently, the spec doesn't actually allow autodetecting UTF-32, but two browsers do it, which means there's currently a mismatch
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  653. # [22:16] <jgraham> Velmont: Breaking a ton of TCs is not like breaking a ton of websites
  654. # [22:16] <zewt> (OtherGlenn made a useful observation--UTF-32 will trigger UTF-16 detection before it gets anywhere near the heuristic detection later)
  655. # [22:16] <Velmont> jgraham: Hrmf.
  656. # [22:16] <jgraham> Unless they are acid tests. And even then we eventually manage to get people to change the test :)
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  658. # [22:18] <zewt> i'm not personally worried about browsers being off-spec with utf-32 detection, since real utf-16 files don't begin with U+0000, just a nice thing to get settled some day
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  667. # [22:32] <gsnedders> I'd rather we detected UTF-32 properly and then failed
  668. # [22:32] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  669. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Like, gets treated the same as any other unknwon encoding, instead of trying to treat it as UTF-16
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  673. # [22:34] <zewt> i don't really care either way, only about the spec/implementation mismatch
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  676. # [22:41] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
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  692. # [23:17] <Hixie> i wonder why kris is asking about html4 things on www-html
  693. # [23:18] <Ms2ger> Because it's stable?
  694. # [23:19] <Hixie> i mean, what is he using the answers for
  695. # [23:20] <Ms2ger> I don't think I want to know
  696. # [23:20] <karlcow> TMI
  697. # [23:22] <tantek> historical research?
  698. # [23:23] <karlcow> biologist?
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  708. # [23:36] <zewt> i suppose i deserve my time being wasted when i violate my own waste-of-time-thread guidelines
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  710. # [23:43] <tantek> self-correcting feedback loops are appreciated. :)
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  715. # [23:53] <annevk> rniwa: am now
  716. # [23:56] <annevk> rniwa: main benefit would be smaller mutation record objects I suppose, but that is probably not much of an issue anyway if you store them in a smart way
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  724. # [23:59] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
  725. # Session Close: Tue Dec 06 00:00:00 2011

The end :)