/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-06 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 06 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  4. # [00:04] * Quits: thedjpetersen (~deploy@li111-58.members.linode.com) (Quit: leaving)
  5. # [00:05] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-gpupfqeppthleztd)
  6. # [00:06] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-5-85-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  7. # [00:06] * Joins: thedjpetersen (~deploy@ridezap.com)
  8. # [00:10] * Joins: duehley (~tester@e177060111.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  9. # [00:13] <rniwa> annevk: hm... but it's just some IDL attributes, right?
  10. # [00:13] <rniwa> annevk: doesn't seem like a big deal to have a few extra properties
  11. # [00:15] <annevk> just doesn't seem very clean
  12. # [00:19] * Quits: martndemus (~martndemu@h254064.upc-h.chello.nl) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  13. # [00:22] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@187.35.136.161) (Quit: Leaving.)
  14. # [00:23] * Quits: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk) (Quit: ...)
  15. # [00:26] * Quits: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  16. # [00:28] <annevk> zewt: we're gonna solve the problem by not making UTF-32 an encoding label
  17. # [00:29] <annevk> zewt: i.e. "utf-32" is the same as "abacadabra"
  18. # [00:29] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-5-85-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  19. # [00:30] <zewt> annevk: that doesn't help unless WebKit and IE are willing to drop UTF-32 support (whether at the autodetect level or entirely)
  20. # [00:31] <zewt> if they are, then it's easy
  21. # [00:32] <annevk> there's not much we can do about proprietary extensions
  22. # [00:34] <zewt> but if they won't remove that, then there's not much point to the spec shaking its fist more loudly at utf-32
  23. # [00:34] <zewt> either way the spec and implementations will differ
  24. # [00:35] * Quits: michaelrtm (~michaelrt@193.299.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  25. # [00:36] <annevk> the spec just makes some recommendations because we're in a transition
  26. # [00:36] <annevk> and because encodings are poorly defined at best
  27. # [00:36] <annevk> I have some ideas on how to do better, but I haven't written down an actual spec yet
  28. # [00:37] <zewt> i mean, currently ie and webkit differ from the spec at step 4 (step 4--if you get there--says utf-32 must be detected as utf-16, those browsers don't do that); explicitly forbidding utf-32 as a supported encoding would just change where those browsers differ from the spec
  29. # [00:37] <zewt> (step 4 being the BOM header step)
  30. # [00:38] <zewt> nothing wrong with being more explicit, of course (it's a lateral move, not a step back)
  31. # [00:39] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@92.40.253.47.threembb.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  32. # [00:40] <annevk> UTF-32 is pretty much forbidden
  33. # [00:40] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  34. # [00:40] <annevk> unless you have a very good reason to support
  35. # [00:40] <zewt> but in practice, that's not the case :(
  36. # [00:41] <zewt> (webkit + ie)
  37. # [00:41] <annevk> I don't really expect implementations to catch up with all the details of the specification within a couple of years after it was introduced
  38. # [00:41] <annevk> that almost never happens
  39. # [00:41] * Joins: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  40. # [00:42] <annevk> it took half a decade for the HTML5 parser to gain some support
  41. # [00:42] <zewt> sure, if you think that they'll eventually be willing to remove utf-32 outright, that's fine (even if it takes a few years)
  42. # [00:42] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@92.40.253.47.threembb.co.uk)
  43. # [00:42] <annevk> pretty close to a decade now for <input type=date> and that's still in its infancy
  44. # [00:43] <annevk> oh yeah, I expect them to remove support for it eventually
  45. # [00:43] <zewt> i don't know if the utf-32 support is purely "we implemented it with everything else and don't really need it" or actual legacy compat
  46. # [00:43] <zewt> which is the real question there, of course
  47. # [00:43] * Joins: michaelrtm (madcow@193.299.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au)
  48. # [00:44] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@pool-74-96-0-132.washdc.east.verizon.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-3.1450hg.fc15 [XULRunner 7.0.1/20110930134335])
  49. # [00:44] <annevk> just like I thought in 2008 that Microsoft would turn around eventually and implement XHR + CORS
  50. # [00:44] <zewt> eventually implementing something and eventually removing something are different beasts, though, as you know better than I :P
  51. # [00:45] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@2620:101:8003:200:714e:1360:9841:fe3c) (Quit: tantek_)
  52. # [00:45] <Philip`> Or "we don't know if there's actual legacy compat, but the tiny possibility of problems outweighs the tinier gains of removing support"
  53. # [00:47] <erlehmann> gains of removing support?
  54. # [00:47] <annevk> in the end Microsoft will want to comply with the standards of the platform
  55. # [00:47] <annevk> and if the standards say that "utf-32" does not mean shit, they will play
  56. # [00:47] <erlehmann> you are a very optimistic fellow.
  57. # [00:47] <zewt> interop, closer to consistency of encoding detection between browsers (as long as you don't hit the heuristic/locale steps), helping utf-32 die
  58. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Is *anyone* trying to implement the encoding detection spec? Does anyone know if it's actually implementable?
  59. # [00:48] <annevk> erlehmann: it's what has happened in the decade I've been involved time and again, but sure, nothing is certain
  60. # [00:48] <annevk> AryehGregor: Opera implemented it, I believe
  61. # [00:49] <erlehmann> annevk, i'm looking forward to vorbis support then. in 2017, when i don't need it anymore, because the mp3 patents … hmm. probably are still going to be out there somewhere, lurking.
  62. # [00:50] <zewt> time for mickey mp3 laws
  63. # [00:50] <annevk> in the end Microsoft ships a browser like anyone else, and browsers are driven a lot by what developers want, and they want browsers to work the same way
  64. # [00:50] <erlehmann> annevk, if large inconsistencies like CSS weirdness and media formats happen to work for them, i do not believe small inconsistencies have any chance unless they actually drive it.
  65. # [00:51] <annevk> they might not move as fast as the others, but they have <canvas> now, they have full CSS 2.1 support, etc.
  66. # [00:51] <zewt> well, at least there's some evidence that they're willing to make breaking changes to their own legacy compat (eg. read-only event objects)
  67. # [00:51] <erlehmann> funny, developers i know constantly tell me browsers are driven by what browser companies want. that is some nice loop ;D
  68. # [00:51] <annevk> all the things we thought were not going to happen back when we started with the WHATWG in 2004
  69. # [00:51] <erlehmann> IE has <canvas>? wow. long time no see.
  70. # [00:51] <annevk> so maybe I'm pretty optimistic, but there's some history to support it
  71. # [00:52] <zewt> annevk: supporting new features and breaking existing ones are different classes, though; i don't think adding support for Canvas is evidence for making breaking changes (though as I said, there's at least some evidence for that)
  72. # [00:52] <erlehmann> annevk, you may be right after all, because killing off UTF-32 slowly is almost as good as killing it off fast.
  73. # [00:53] <WeirdAl> it's been 7 years of WHATWG? That deserves a "wow" of its own. :)
  74. # [00:53] <erlehmann> so it might not matter if they care much, if they do at all.
  75. # [00:53] <annevk> zewt: the HTML parser was a breaking change
  76. # [00:53] <annevk> zewt: CSS 2.1 was a breaking change
  77. # [00:53] <annevk> zewt: a lot of things were breaking changes, for pretty much every browser we've had those
  78. # [00:54] <zewt> modulo quirks mode, though (though I pretty much ignore the details of that, being fortunate enough to not have horrible legacy stuff to maintain)
  79. # [00:54] <annevk> ah yeah, IE10 breaks its own quirks mode!
  80. # [00:54] <annevk> to be more compatible with the other browsers
  81. # [00:54] <annevk> that should be a good sign that UTF-32 will go away :)
  82. # [00:55] <zewt> dunno, as always we'll see :)
  83. # [00:55] * Quits: duehley (~tester@e177060111.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: Leaving.)
  84. # [00:55] <zewt> far from the biggest problem plaguing charsets, so I'm not chewing my fingernails over it either way
  85. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> IE10 implements appcache? I thought that was broken and no one wants to use it.
  86. # [00:59] <annevk> I think everyone just wants more out of it
  87. # [00:59] <annevk> (to put it somewhat simply)
  88. # [01:01] * Quits: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243])
  89. # [01:02] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@p2067-ipbf1606marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  90. # [01:03] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@75-144-255-214-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  91. # [01:05] <bga> http://code.google.com/chrome/extensions/trunk/experimental.socket.html
  92. # [01:05] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@p2067-ipbf1606marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  93. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> :( http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/webkit/glue/webkit_glue.cc?r1=111877&r2=111876&pathrev=111877
  94. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> I love open-source: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73182
  95. # [01:10] <zewt> would spoofing as "User-Agent: you're an idiot" be acceptable
  96. # [01:10] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona)
  97. # [01:10] <zewt> perhaps it would help get the message across
  98. # [01:13] <erlehmann> zewt, i like your style and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
  99. # [01:14] <annevk> I think it's right here, in #whatwg :)
  100. # [01:15] <erlehmann> // Pretend to be Firefox. Silverlight doesn't support Win Safari.
  101. # [01:15] <annevk> someone please patch WebKit to remove UTF-32 for me tonight
  102. # [01:15] <erlehmann> ahaha oh wow
  103. # [01:15] <annevk> nn
  104. # [01:16] <Hixie> nn
  105. # [01:16] <erlehmann> nn?
  106. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Two nymphs next to a scroll.
  107. # [01:17] * AryehGregor uses magic missile to knock them both off from a distance
  108. # [01:17] <Hixie> erlehmann: "night night"
  109. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Those things can be really annoying.
  110. # [01:18] * AryehGregor used to play NetHack a bunch, and sometimes still randomly associates strings of characters with monsters and treasure
  111. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> Particularly in fixed-width fonts.
  112. # [01:21] <erlehmann> i use variable width
  113. # [01:21] <erlehmann> you insensitive clod
  114. # [01:21] <erlehmann> (p.s. hot grits)
  115. # [01:21] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  116. # [01:21] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
  117. # [01:22] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-voiescnsyzibtmys)
  118. # [01:25] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@p2067-ipbf1606marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  119. # [01:26] * Quits: KillerX_ (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-idssptdwuiutdpyt) (Quit: KillerX_)
  120. # [01:27] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@p2067-ipbf1606marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  121. # [01:30] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@211.177.245.3) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  122. # [01:30] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
  123. # [01:33] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@92.40.253.47.threembb.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  124. # [01:42] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.101) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  125. # [01:48] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  126. # [01:56] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  127. # [02:17] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@nat/google/x-eshgzcudxsibxpsy) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  128. # [02:20] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-voiescnsyzibtmys) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  129. # [02:21] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@2620:101:8003:200:e83c:7ff9:bc4:a9f3)
  130. # [02:24] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  131. # [02:29] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@92.40.253.47.threembb.co.uk)
  132. # [02:30] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-ucycvsrozievosrg)
  133. # [02:30] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
  134. # [02:30] * Quits: ap_ (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:4465:6c58:31a9:3597) (Quit: ap_)
  135. # [02:31] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Remote host closed the connection)
  136. # [02:34] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  137. # [02:48] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  138. # [02:48] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@75-144-255-214-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  139. # [02:55] * Joins: ryanseddon (u1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-estzjjjshzgbyqen)
  140. # [02:56] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  141. # [03:03] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.2.84)
  142. # [03:04] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  143. # [03:04] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  144. # [03:04] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  145. # [03:07] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net)
  146. # [03:10] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-qwkeeixcfvmxwnhx) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  147. # [03:12] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  148. # [03:14] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@192.150.22.5) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  149. # [03:19] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-110-168-71-247.revip5.asianet.co.th)
  150. # [03:21] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-fcvzozxbfzzmfmnx) (Quit: tantek)
  151. # [03:21] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  152. # [03:23] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@2620:101:8003:200:e83c:7ff9:bc4:a9f3) (Quit: tantek)
  153. # [03:24] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  154. # [03:24] <jcranmer> sigh @ the UTF-8 thread
  155. # [03:32] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@74.125.56.33)
  156. # [03:38] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-129.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  157. # [03:41] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@74.125.56.33) (Quit: Leaving.)
  158. # [03:46] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@74.125.56.33)
  159. # [03:47] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net)
  160. # [03:50] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  161. # [03:52] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-113-12.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  162. # [03:52] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-113-12.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  163. # [03:52] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona)
  164. # [03:53] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  165. # [03:53] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-125-198.dynamic.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  166. # [03:53] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-125-198.dynamic.hinet.net)
  167. # [03:53] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  168. # [03:54] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  169. # [03:54] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Remote host closed the connection)
  170. # [03:59] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@nat/mozilla/x-nbmehmhmfrqcsyyv)
  171. # [03:59] * Quits: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-idwgkmeivlrcjerj) (Quit: dave_levin)
  172. # [04:01] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-ucycvsrozievosrg) (Quit: jamesr)
  173. # [04:01] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.2.84) (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/)
  174. # [04:22] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.2.84)
  175. # [04:22] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@199-83-220-131.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  176. # [04:25] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  177. # [04:25] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@ZYYYMKDCLXXXVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  178. # [04:25] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@199-83-220-131.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  179. # [04:26] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  180. # [04:27] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@199-83-220-131.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  181. # [04:29] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  182. # [04:30] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  183. # [04:30] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@74.125.56.33) (Quit: Leaving.)
  184. # [04:31] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  185. # [04:36] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net)
  186. # [04:37] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@mist.thaumas.net)
  187. # [04:42] * Joins: deanedridge (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  188. # [04:43] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@199-83-220-131.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  189. # [04:45] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@mist.thaumas.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  190. # [04:56] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@74.125.56.33)
  191. # [05:03] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  192. # [05:04] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-zuvcpjhnjwxkzlfe) (Quit: rniwa)
  193. # [05:09] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com)
  194. # [05:10] <JonathanNeal> Is this style still relevant? http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css - I compiled it from the spec, but I think it had imaginary properties like :any(dl, menu, ol, ul) :any(dl, menu, ul) etc
  195. # [05:15] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p508293E8.dip.t-dialin.net)
  196. # [05:16] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-50-128.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  197. # [05:16] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.2.84) (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/)
  198. # [05:17] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net)
  199. # [05:19] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p508296D4.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  200. # [05:21] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-69-181-104-35.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  201. # [05:27] * Joins: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net)
  202. # [05:27] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-69-181-104-35.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  203. # [05:31] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@c-69-181-124-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: tantek)
  204. # [05:33] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  205. # [05:35] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  206. # [05:43] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  207. # [05:45] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@210.206.248.208)
  208. # [05:51] <zewt> commending boris's endurance in the utf-8 thread
  209. # [05:53] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  210. # [05:54] <zewt> will i be strung and quartered if i point out that missing language declarations have the exact same problem as missing encoding declarations (even if the cases it matters are fewer)
  211. # [05:54] <zewt> also drawn (need a refresher on my midieval execution methods)
  212. # [05:55] <zewt> (also medieval; striking out tonight)
  213. # [05:56] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-69-181-104-35.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  214. # [05:59] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-69-181-104-35.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  215. # [05:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@210.206.248.208) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  216. # [06:04] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@206-80-17-29.static.twtelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  217. # [06:05] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  218. # [06:11] * Joins: herbnerder1 (~herb@207-255-154-079-dhcp.clf.pa.atlanticbb.net)
  219. # [06:18] * Parts: herbnerder1 (~herb@207-255-154-079-dhcp.clf.pa.atlanticbb.net)
  220. # [06:18] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@nat/mozilla/x-nbmehmhmfrqcsyyv) (Remote host closed the connection)
  221. # [06:19] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@211.210.76.2)
  222. # [06:23] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@211.210.76.2) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  223. # [06:24] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr)
  224. # [06:29] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host109-151-240-187.range109-151.btcentralplus.com)
  225. # [06:32] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@92.40.253.47.threembb.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  226. # [06:34] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@mist.thaumas.net)
  227. # [06:42] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@199-83-220-131.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  228. # [06:44] * Joins: mendota (~mendota@c-24-21-213-45.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  229. # [06:45] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-129.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  230. # [06:47] <mendota> can i ask a question about arcs in canvas?
  231. # [06:48] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@199-83-220-131.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  232. # [06:53] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-110-168-71-247.revip5.asianet.co.th) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  233. # [06:54] <Hixie> mendota: sure
  234. # [06:55] * Joins: jer|afk (~jernoble@2002:43bc:6d07:0:fe:78a0:3b2:19f9)
  235. # [06:56] * Joins: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  236. # [06:56] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  237. # [06:58] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-58f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  238. # [07:00] * Parts: deanedridge (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  239. # [07:02] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@mist.thaumas.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  240. # [07:03] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-63-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  241. # [07:06] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-110-168-101-65.revip5.asianet.co.th)
  242. # [07:06] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  243. # [07:06] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  244. # [07:12] * Joins: deane_ (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  245. # [07:15] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  246. # [07:30] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  247. # [07:36] <abarth> Hixie: do you know how to subscribe to public-html ? I used to be subscribed, but I don't seem to be anymore. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/ doesn't have the usual subscription instructions
  248. # [07:37] <Hixie> as a googler you have to go through tv
  249. # [07:37] <abarth> ah, thanks
  250. # [07:37] <Hixie> but frankly i would count your blessings
  251. # [07:38] <abarth> ok. i've been encouraging the web intents folks to come to public-html to talk about <intent>
  252. # [07:38] <abarth> but i guess I can read it in the archives
  253. # [07:41] * Quits: schnoomac (~schnoomac@124.168.124.249) (Quit: schnoomac)
  254. # [07:44] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-5-85-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  255. # [07:49] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  256. # [07:49] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  257. # [07:49] <abarth> Hixie: do you have a moment to tell me how nutty this text about sandbox flags is? http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/content-security-policy/raw-file/tip/csp-specification.dev.html#sandbox
  258. # [07:49] <abarth> "When enforcing the sandbox directive, the user agent must set the sandbox flags for the protected document as if the document where contained in a nested browsing context within a document with sandbox flags given by the the directive-value."
  259. # [07:51] <Hixie> hrm
  260. # [07:51] <abarth> i don't think its quite right
  261. # [07:51] * Quits: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  262. # [07:51] <abarth> i couldn't find a good hook in HTML for this
  263. # [07:52] <Hixie> what you probably want to do is set some hook that i can then do the right magic with
  264. # [07:52] <Hixie> rather than try to poke the html spec flags
  265. # [07:52] <abarth> ok
  266. # [07:52] <Hixie> because the flags you have to set are pretty complex and subtle
  267. # [07:52] <Hixie> and involve the navigation algorithm, etc
  268. # [07:52] <abarth> how about the "CSP sandbox flags" as a property of a Document
  269. # [07:52] <abarth> which will be a string like you'd get in the iframe attribute?
  270. # [07:52] <abarth> so HTML handles the parsing
  271. # [07:52] <Hixie> has to be on a browsing context, not a document
  272. # [07:52] <Hixie> doesn't make sense to sandbox a document
  273. # [07:53] <abarth> why not?
  274. # [07:53] <abarth> sorry, let me ask a different question
  275. # [07:53] <abarth> is a browsing context preserved across navigations?
  276. # [07:53] <Hixie> yes
  277. # [07:54] <Hixie> but the flags can change during the lifetime of the browsing context
  278. # [07:54] <abarth> ah
  279. # [07:54] <abarth> ok
  280. # [07:54] <Hixie> what matters to all teh security stuff is the state when the browsing context was last navigated
  281. # [07:55] <Hixie> e.g. "if... its browsing context had its sandboxed forms browsing context flag set when the Document was created ..."
  282. # [07:55] <abarth> i see
  283. # [07:55] * Joins: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  284. # [07:55] <Hixie> but the net result is that you have to set the flags before the document is created
  285. # [07:55] <abarth> do we have the response headers when the document is created?
  286. # [07:55] <Hixie> er, before the Document is created
  287. # [07:55] <Hixie> sure
  288. # [07:55] <Hixie> assuming it came over HTTP
  289. # [07:56] <abarth> ok, so when the document is created, HTML needs to ask about the CSP policy for the document
  290. # [07:56] <abarth> or for the response
  291. # [07:56] <Hixie> we get the headers by navigate step 19 or so (type sniffing step), we create the document as a side-effect of step 20 (the switch statement that relies on the sniffed type)
  292. # [07:57] <abarth> Upon receiving an HTTP response containing ...
  293. # [07:57] <abarth> that's when the CSP policy starts getting enforced
  294. # [07:57] <abarth> "Upon receiving an HTTP response containing at least one Content-Security-Policy header field, the user agent must enforce the combination of all the policies contained in these header fields."
  295. # [07:58] <Hixie> so... what happens if the page navigates itself to a page without the CSP?
  296. # [07:58] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  297. # [07:58] <Hixie> or does a history.back() to a accomplice page that isn't sandboxed?
  298. # [07:58] <abarth> that's fine
  299. # [07:59] <abarth> consider the unique-origin sandbox bits
  300. # [07:59] <abarth> or the disable-script
  301. # [07:59] <Hixie> k
  302. # [07:59] <abarth> those make sense on a per-document basisi
  303. # [07:59] <Hixie> so when do we reset the flags?
  304. # [07:59] <abarth> each navigation
  305. # [08:00] <abarth> what actually happens in the implementation is that we copy the sandbox flags from the Frame to the Document when the document is created
  306. # [08:00] <abarth> because we're supposed to freeze the sandbox flags
  307. # [08:00] <abarth> we enquire about the CSP policy at that time
  308. # [08:00] <abarth> that happens each time a new document is loaded into a Frame
  309. # [08:00] <Hixie> hmm... the document is created before the session history change happens
  310. # [08:00] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2091.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  311. # [08:01] <Hixie> so we'd have to reset the flags before the old document is removed...
  312. # [08:01] <Hixie> might make sense to just set the flags temporarily while the document is being created or something
  313. # [08:01] <Hixie> how is this supposed to interact with the sandbox attribute? union?
  314. # [08:01] <abarth> can we not just set them on the document when we copy the state to the document?
  315. # [08:02] <abarth> Hixie: its the same combination operator that happens when you have nested iframes
  316. # [08:02] <abarth> that each contribute a sandbox attribute
  317. # [08:02] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  318. # [08:02] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
  319. # [08:02] * Joins: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  320. # [08:03] <Hixie> hmmm
  321. # [08:04] <Hixie> so the way it works for nested iframes is that setting the flag on an iframe just forces it on for all descendants iframes
  322. # [08:04] <abarth> yeah, so the union
  323. # [08:04] <abarth> (assuming the items are things like "sandboxed scripts browsing context flag")
  324. # [08:05] <Hixie> the precise text right now is "In addition, any browsing contexts nested within an iframe, either directly or indirectly, must have all the flags set on them as were set on the iframe's Document's browsing context when the iframe's Document was created."
  325. # [08:05] <Hixie> so i guess i'd just change that to "nested within a browsing context"
  326. # [08:05] <Hixie> and change the other "iframe"s to "browsing context"
  327. # [08:05] <abarth> yes
  328. # [08:06] <abarth> "iframe's Document's browsing context when the iframe's Document was created"
  329. # [08:06] <abarth> that state gets represented in the implementation
  330. # [08:06] <abarth> explicitly as a property of the document
  331. # [08:06] <Hixie> sigh, probably makes sense to just hoist all this stuff up to a generic section
  332. # [08:06] <Hixie> and then invoke it from iframe creation and from navigation
  333. # [08:06] <Hixie> or something
  334. # [08:06] <Hixie> and maybe do your "freeze on document" thing at the same time
  335. # [08:06] <Hixie> for clarity
  336. # [08:06] <abarth> sorry to make work for you :(
  337. # [08:06] <Hixie> no worries
  338. # [08:07] <Hixie> tis my job
  339. # [08:07] <Hixie> can you file a bug or send mail about it? reference this irc log if you can
  340. # [08:07] <abarth> sure
  341. # [08:07] <Hixie> probably won't happen until early next year
  342. # [08:07] <abarth> yeah, there's no rush
  343. # [08:07] <Hixie> k
  344. # [08:07] <abarth> thanks
  345. # [08:09] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  346. # [08:10] <Hixie> my pleasure
  347. # [08:27] <zewt> ew, IVS characters are outside of the BMP, so if they were ever actually supported and used, they'd never work reliably in JS (since nobody pays attention to surrogate pairs)
  348. # [08:30] <jamesr> what's IVS?
  349. # [08:30] <zewt> combining characters for glyph variations in unicode
  350. # [08:30] <zewt> (an alternate approach to language tagging for the han unification problem)
  351. # [08:31] * Joins: teatimer (~teatimer@167.30.37.236)
  352. # [08:31] <zewt> never heard of it actually being used, though
  353. # [08:31] <zewt> (and it doesn't seem very practical, in general)
  354. # [08:32] * Quits: mendota (~mendota@c-24-21-213-45.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  355. # [08:32] * jamesr wonders if non-BMP chars are something we'll ever address on the web
  356. # [08:33] <jamesr> and if the people cooking up unicode are aware of the issues
  357. # [08:33] <Hixie> the people cooking up unicode don't have much choice in the matter
  358. # [08:33] <Hixie> the BMP is close to full
  359. # [08:33] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br)
  360. # [08:33] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona) (Quit: cgcardona)
  361. # [08:34] <jamesr> so they shouldn't wait for us, obviously, unicode solves problems for things other than the web
  362. # [08:35] <jamesr> but at some point we have to deal with this, or just say that there are types of content that you can't use 99% of the web platform and libraries for
  363. # [08:35] <zewt> a set of content that will grow to less trivial levels over time
  364. # [08:36] <zcorpan> have somebody extracted IDLs from specs and put them somewhere?
  365. # [08:36] <Hixie> dom's widl checker can extract idls from spec
  366. # [08:36] <jamesr> either the world ignores that content (unlikely and seems bad), we extend the platform, or platforms other than the web grow to deal with this content
  367. # [08:37] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF702D.dip.t-dialin.net)
  368. # [08:37] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br) (Client Quit)
  369. # [08:38] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br)
  370. # [08:38] <zewt> platforms other than the web don't need to grow--they already deal with it (well, some of them)
  371. # [08:39] <zewt> so it'll become "everyone can display these characters except for the web" (or rather, "it'll display on the web but things will break randomly")
  372. # [08:39] <zewt> (we're not *that* far off; win32 is UTF-16 too and I'm sure lots of Windows software doesn't deal with it at all)
  373. # [08:42] * Joins: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  374. # [08:48] * Quits: teatimer (~teatimer@167.30.37.236)
  375. # [08:52] * Quits: deane_ (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  376. # [08:53] * Parts: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  377. # [08:53] * Joins: benjoffe (~benjoffe@123.208.163.110)
  378. # [08:56] * Joins: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  379. # [08:58] * Joins: deane_ (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  380. # [09:02] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: abarth)
  381. # [09:03] <zcorpan> http://widl.webvm.net/ is .... unhelpful
  382. # [09:04] * Quits: deane_ (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz) (Read error: No route to host)
  383. # [09:05] * zcorpan gives up
  384. # [09:07] * Joins: mendota (~mendota@c-24-21-213-45.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  385. # [09:09] * Quits: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  386. # [09:11] * jgraham wonders what zcorpan is trying to do
  387. # [09:12] <jgraham> Also, it seems like we shipped the HTML5 parser in an actual final release build
  388. # [09:12] <jgraham> Take that site-compatibility bugs!
  389. # [09:14] <Hixie> no more weird text nodes with css?
  390. # [09:15] <zcorpan> jgraham: i just wanted to find examples of overloading to form an opinion on what the conversion behavior should be
  391. # [09:15] <Hixie> nn
  392. # [09:15] <zcorpan> jgraham: turned out to be simpler to search for "};"
  393. # [09:15] <jgraham> gn
  394. # [09:16] <jgraham> zcorpan: Ah :)
  395. # [09:16] <zcorpan> first example is options.add()
  396. # [09:22] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-8-15.adsl.inetia.pl)
  397. # [09:25] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  398. # [09:25] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  399. # [09:26] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  400. # [09:27] * Joins: deane_ (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  401. # [09:29] <jamesr> hmm
  402. # [09:29] <jamesr> any opera peeps here? i'm looking at http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/efficient-javascript/?page=3#stylechanges and scratching my head
  403. # [09:31] <jamesr> it seems like either opera's doing things that are definitely invalid or there's some interaction here that escapes me. how could you have intermediate repaints in that example?
  404. # [09:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@211.177.245.3)
  405. # [09:34] <jgraham> jamesr: Haven'tlooked at the article (have to go), but we repaint on a timer during script execution. It is supposed to help on slow devices where script might take a long time
  406. # [09:34] <jamesr> so you paint while script is still running?
  407. # [09:34] <jgraham> If that's not what it's about, I will have to read the article
  408. # [09:34] <jamesr> yes that's what it's about
  409. # [09:34] <jamesr> or this section, anyway
  410. # [09:34] <jamesr> and you're OK with painting intermediate results?
  411. # [09:35] <jgraham> Well it depends who you ask :)
  412. # [09:35] <jgraham> There is a tradeoff
  413. # [09:36] <zcorpan> the article says "That approach could mean multiple reflows and repaints.". this is not the case (anymore, at least)
  414. # [09:36] <zcorpan> unless the script takes a very long time
  415. # [09:36] <jamesr> well, if opera decides to repaint after every .style assignment it will
  416. # [09:36] <jgraham> On desktop if your script is so long running that it will paint intermediate results in Opera it will block the UI thread in other browsers
  417. # [09:36] <jgraham> So it's not a good UX anywhere
  418. # [09:37] <jamesr> if the script is replacing a significant part of the UI with something different then it's much better to not show a half-built thing
  419. # [09:37] <jamesr> unless you're talking about hung script dialog sorts of delays
  420. # [09:37] <jamesr> there's also standards language around this behavior, although it is somewhat weak
  421. # [09:38] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:a994:965c:b748:5f5e) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  422. # [09:38] <zcorpan> right, we don't conform to the html spec
  423. # [09:38] <jamesr> anyway, if you feel that's the UX you want i'll try to keep it in mind when advising web devs on what to do (probably by telling them to ignore opera since there is no way for them to build a reasonable experience with that going on)
  424. # [09:38] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:bd15:df6b:307a:2593)
  425. # [09:39] * Joins: xec (~xec@2a00:10b0:1:1002:5ab0:35ff:fef8:6a01)
  426. # [09:39] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  427. # [09:39] <zcorpan> jamesr: i hope you don't advice web devs to block the UI thread :)
  428. # [09:40] <jamesr> well, i do advise them not to write any javascript to avoid doing that
  429. # [09:40] <jamesr> but sometimes they don't listen and write some script anyway
  430. # [09:41] <jamesr> and authors don't have much control over how much wall clock time their JS takes given GC pauses, thread preemption, and native code choices
  431. # [09:45] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  432. # [09:45] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  433. # [09:45] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B137354.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  434. # [09:46] * Joins: JonathanNeal1 (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com)
  435. # [09:46] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  436. # [09:50] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B136AB1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  437. # [09:50] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  438. # [09:52] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr)
  439. # [09:53] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  440. # [09:54] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  441. # [09:54] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@74.125.56.33) (Quit: Leaving.)
  442. # [09:54] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  443. # [09:54] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  444. # [09:55] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  445. # [09:57] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  446. # [09:57] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek_)
  447. # [09:59] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  448. # [09:59] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  449. # [10:05] <jgraham> jamesr_: Code that takes hundreds of ms to run is bad any way you cut it
  450. # [10:15] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  451. # [10:20] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  452. # [10:21] <oal> Shouldn't the section tag be styled in any way? And are there other tags that should be treated the same way?
  453. # [10:22] * Joins: richt (~richt@c83-249-28-214.bredband.comhem.se)
  454. # [10:23] <jgraham> Giving tags default styling often makes people unhappy
  455. # [10:24] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  456. # [10:25] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.)
  457. # [10:25] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  458. # [10:27] <oal> jgraham: http://www.aniketpant.com/article/html5-semantics-and-good-coding-practices says "Not: The section element should not be used for styling. A div should be preferred." Why is that?
  459. # [10:28] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  460. # [10:29] * michel_v_ is now known as michel_v
  461. # [10:29] * Quits: michel_v (~tofu@desav.eu) (Changing host)
  462. # [10:29] * Joins: michel_v (~tofu@unaffiliated/michelv/x-000000001)
  463. # [10:29] <zcorpan> oal: same reason you shouldn't use <h1> if you want big text but don't mean heading
  464. # [10:30] <zcorpan> oal: <section> means section, not fancy box with rounded corners and drop shadow :)
  465. # [10:30] <oal> Yeah, but I mean, if you have a section, isn't it ok to set a width, color and background color for it? Or should there be an <article> or <div> inside with those set?
  466. # [10:31] <zcorpan> sure, it's fine to style sections
  467. # [10:31] * Joins: Neocortex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  468. # [10:32] <zcorpan> it's fine to style any element
  469. # [10:32] <zcorpan> it's not fine to use any element *for styling*
  470. # [10:34] <jgraham> Right. That sentence is a bit misleading. It means you shouldn't use <section> if the only reason you need an element is as a wrapper to hook some styling on. You should only use <section> if you are actually marking up a section of content. But if you are using <section> correctly, it is fine to apply any style you like to it
  471. # [10:34] <jgraham> If you just need a styling hook, use a <div> element instead
  472. # [10:35] <oal> That makes sense. Thanks jgraham and zcorpan :-)
  473. # [10:38] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  474. # [10:38] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  475. # [10:42] * Quits: benjoffe (~benjoffe@123.208.163.110) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  476. # [10:42] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-58f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Quit: And Now for Something Completely Different.)
  477. # [10:45] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  478. # [10:50] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  479. # [10:51] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-50-128.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  480. # [10:52] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  481. # [10:53] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  482. # [10:53] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  483. # [10:55] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  484. # [10:57] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Client Quit)
  485. # [10:57] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  486. # [11:01] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Client Quit)
  487. # [11:01] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  488. # [11:01] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  489. # [11:03] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  490. # [11:06] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  491. # [11:09] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  492. # [11:10] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  493. # [11:10] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  494. # [11:12] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.39.236)
  495. # [11:15] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  496. # [11:21] * Joins: benjoffe (~benjoffe@123.208.163.110)
  497. # [11:21] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  498. # [11:22] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  499. # [11:22] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  500. # [11:22] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  501. # [11:30] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad009033.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
  502. # [11:31] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  503. # [11:32] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  504. # [11:32] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  505. # [11:33] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  506. # [11:34] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  507. # [11:35] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  508. # [11:35] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  509. # [11:35] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  510. # [11:38] <annevk> heycam|away: did you add the warning to const?
  511. # [11:41] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:bd15:df6b:307a:2593) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  512. # [11:41] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
  513. # [11:43] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-125-198.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: kennyluck)
  514. # [11:46] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  515. # [11:47] * Parts: deane_ (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  516. # [11:53] * Quits: Rubennn (~quassel@2a02:348:33:5823::1) (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
  517. # [11:53] * Joins: Rubennn (~Rubennn@apher.gewooniets.nl)
  518. # [11:54] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  519. # [11:58] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  520. # [12:00] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  521. # [12:04] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br)
  522. # [12:04] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br) (Client Quit)
  523. # [12:04] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br)
  524. # [12:06] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  525. # [12:12] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  526. # [12:17] * Joins: deane (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  527. # [12:17] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  528. # [12:18] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  529. # [12:25] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  530. # [12:25] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  531. # [12:25] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@note-danbri.few.vu.nl)
  532. # [12:33] <annevk> geez HTTP WG is taking its time
  533. # [12:33] <annevk> and forgetting about my issues after saying they'll handle it
  534. # [12:38] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  535. # [12:43] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  536. # [12:45] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-110-168-101-65.revip5.asianet.co.th) (Quit: Leaving)
  537. # [12:51] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br)
  538. # [12:52] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br) (Client Quit)
  539. # [12:52] * Joins: diraol1 (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br)
  540. # [12:54] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  541. # [12:55] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  542. # [12:56] * Quits: Obvious_MkII (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  543. # [12:56] * Quits: diraol1 (~diraol@201.20.213.107.user.ajato.com.br) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  544. # [13:00] <annevk> Hixie: in r6843 you updated WebVTT but http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/ is not updated
  545. # [13:09] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18)
  546. # [13:11] * Joins: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  547. # [13:12] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  548. # [13:12] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  549. # [13:13] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: RobbertAtWork)
  550. # [13:14] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  551. # [13:16] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Client Quit)
  552. # [13:16] * Joins: andrewjbaker (~ajb@ip-81-23-63-2.ask4internet.com)
  553. # [13:16] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  554. # [13:17] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  555. # [13:17] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  556. # [13:18] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@200-170-114-119.user.ajato.com.br)
  557. # [13:19] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B136AB1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  558. # [13:22] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  559. # [13:22] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.18) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  560. # [13:22] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  561. # [13:24] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  562. # [13:24] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  563. # [13:27] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-58f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  564. # [13:44] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.98.205)
  565. # [13:44] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.98.205) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  566. # [13:49] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-5-85-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  567. # [14:06] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  568. # [14:07] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  569. # [14:09] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  570. # [14:09] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B136AB1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  571. # [14:10] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Client Quit)
  572. # [14:10] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  573. # [14:13] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@200-170-114-119.user.ajato.com.br) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  574. # [14:18] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  575. # [14:21] * Quits: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: brucel)
  576. # [14:23] * Quits: benjoffe (~benjoffe@123.208.163.110) (Remote host closed the connection)
  577. # [14:28] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-8-15.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  578. # [14:32] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
  579. # [14:40] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: RobbertAtWork)
  580. # [14:47] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  581. # [14:50] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@64.202.138.67)
  582. # [14:54] * Quits: Neocortex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  583. # [14:55] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@dhcp-020-246.public.vu.nl)
  584. # [14:55] * Quits: danbri_ (~danbri@dhcp-020-246.public.vu.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  585. # [14:57] * Joins: kzzx (~nickv@static-173-73-3-108.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  586. # [14:58] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-bupsbarkxlagaprb) (Remote host closed the connection)
  587. # [14:58] * Joins: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-qxdqsqattdoacgho)
  588. # [14:58] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@note-danbri.few.vu.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  589. # [15:03] * Joins: Neocortex (~nectop@ip4da11daf.direct-adsl.nl)
  590. # [15:05] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  591. # [15:05] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  592. # [15:06] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-125-198.dynamic.hinet.net)
  593. # [15:16] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  594. # [15:17] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  595. # [15:19] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@nat/mozilla/x-hbjfuybaqxvvdraz)
  596. # [15:20] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  597. # [15:20] <annevk> Live WebVTT Validator should match the specification again
  598. # [15:20] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/annevk/webvtt
  599. # [15:20] <annevk> http://quuz.org/webvtt/
  600. # [15:21] <annevk> hsivonen: is it an idea to host an instance on webvtt.validator.nu?
  601. # [15:23] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  602. # [15:31] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-58f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  603. # [15:33] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  604. # [15:33] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733728.pool.mediaWays.net)
  605. # [15:35] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@76.14.70.183) (*.net *.split)
  606. # [15:35] * Quits: wookiehangover (~wookiehan@c-67-161-138-118.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
  607. # [15:35] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (*.net *.split)
  608. # [15:38] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@76.14.70.183)
  609. # [15:38] * Joins: wookiehangover (~wookiehan@c-67-161-138-118.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  610. # [15:38] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  611. # [15:38] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF702D.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  612. # [15:39] * Quits: Neocortex (~nectop@ip4da11daf.direct-adsl.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  613. # [15:42] * Joins: DrewBarfield (ae6d7232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.109.114.50)
  614. # [15:42] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  615. # [15:43] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  616. # [15:45] <DrewBarfield> Hello everyone! I'm interested in writing demos for the WHATWG site (HTML living standard) and need suggestions. What kinds of demos would you like to see?
  617. # [15:46] * Quits: JonathanNeal1 (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  618. # [15:46] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com)
  619. # [15:46] <annevk> DrewBarfield: did you look at http://www.whatwg.org/demos/ ?
  620. # [15:47] <annevk> DrewBarfield: it can basically be anything that's defined in the HTML standard
  621. # [15:49] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@3239059-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  622. # [15:49] <DrewBarfield> Are there topics that are lacking demos or could use them more than others? If not, I can just iterate over the topics at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  623. # [15:51] <jgraham> I don't recall seeing any EventSource demos
  624. # [15:51] <annevk> DrewBarfield: I think currently we lack demos for most things, but there are other sites that have created demos too, such as http://html5demos.com/
  625. # [15:52] <annevk> DrewBarfield: basically though, everything is welcome; start with what you know best I'd say :)
  626. # [15:52] <jgraham> Yes
  627. # [15:52] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B136AB1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  628. # [15:53] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  629. # [15:53] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  630. # [15:54] * Joins: Neocortex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  631. # [15:54] <annevk> DrewBarfield: Hixie can probably help set you up, but depending on your timezone you might have to email him
  632. # [15:55] <DrewBarfield> Thank you all. I think I will start with the Communication chapter and work my way out from there.
  633. # [15:55] <DrewBarfield> I have emailed Ian and he suggested that I ask everyone here for suggestions.
  634. # [15:55] <annevk> ah okay, cool
  635. # [15:56] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  636. # [15:56] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  637. # [15:58] * Parts: deane (~deanedrid@124-197-11-114.callplus.net.nz)
  638. # [15:59] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B136AB1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  639. # [15:59] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  640. # [16:01] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@64.202.138.67) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-3.1450hg.fc15 [XULRunner 7.0.1/20110930134335])
  641. # [16:02] * Joins: gkellogg (~gregg@c-98-248-150-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  642. # [16:02] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@nat/mozilla/x-hbjfuybaqxvvdraz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  643. # [16:05] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  644. # [16:05] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  645. # [16:05] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@mist.thaumas.net)
  646. # [16:08] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  647. # [16:15] * danbri_ is now known as danbri
  648. # [16:15] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  649. # [16:15] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  650. # [16:18] * Quits: DrewBarfield (ae6d7232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.109.114.50) (Quit: Page closed)
  651. # [16:19] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  652. # [16:22] * Joins: jochen___ (jochen@nat/google/x-etkkhxryxfvsdcio)
  653. # [16:23] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  654. # [16:23] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-qxdqsqattdoacgho) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  655. # [16:23] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  656. # [16:23] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  657. # [16:26] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  658. # [16:27] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Read error: No route to host)
  659. # [16:28] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  660. # [16:28] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  661. # [16:30] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  662. # [16:30] * Joins: Wilto (u2821@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-siiyhtiygdehukzm)
  663. # [16:34] * Joins: FrankParent (~fparent@64.34.146.254)
  664. # [16:34] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@143.107.96.126)
  665. # [16:34] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  666. # [16:35] <Wilto> I heard someone in this joint was using the phrase “responsive images,” which summons me like saying “Beetlejuice” three times.
  667. # [16:38] <Wilto> Hm, maybe not. You’ve broken my heart once again, miketaylr.
  668. # [16:38] <miketaylr> </3
  669. # [16:39] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  670. # [16:40] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  671. # [16:42] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  672. # [16:43] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-gpupfqeppthleztd) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  673. # [16:51] <JonathanNeal> Goodmorning!
  674. # [16:54] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@mist.thaumas.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  675. # [16:55] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  676. # [16:57] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  677. # [17:00] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  678. # [17:03] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c7fb2.bb.sky.com)
  679. # [17:04] * Quits: mendota (~mendota@c-24-21-213-45.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  680. # [17:12] * Joins: Obvious_MkII (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  681. # [17:13] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  682. # [17:23] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@63.68.157.173)
  683. # [17:24] * Joins: martndemus (~martndemu@h254064.upc-h.chello.nl)
  684. # [17:25] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  685. # [17:26] * Quits: xec (~xec@2a00:10b0:1:1002:5ab0:35ff:fef8:6a01) (Remote host closed the connection)
  686. # [17:35] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  687. # [17:38] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.130.9)
  688. # [17:40] * Parts: kzzx (~nickv@static-173-73-3-108.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  689. # [17:42] * Joins: xec (~xec@2a00:10b0:1:1002:5ab0:35ff:fef8:6a01)
  690. # [17:50] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-131-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  691. # [17:55] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p508293E8.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  692. # [17:55] * Joins: ap (~ap@c-98-248-236-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  693. # [17:58] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.130.9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  694. # [17:59] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  695. # [18:03] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-63-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: astearns)
  696. # [18:03] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  697. # [18:03] * Quits: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net) (Quit: WolfieZero)
  698. # [18:09] * Joins: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk)
  699. # [18:09] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  700. # [18:11] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.130.9)
  701. # [18:14] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.55.40)
  702. # [18:16] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.130.9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  703. # [18:22] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  704. # [18:26] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  705. # [18:26] * Joins: kinetik_ (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  706. # [18:27] * Joins: gwicke_ (~gabriel@212.255.39.236)
  707. # [18:29] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  708. # [18:29] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.39.236) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  709. # [18:29] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host109-151-240-187.range109-151.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  710. # [18:29] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host109-151-240-187.range109-151.btcentralplus.com)
  711. # [18:29] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@143.107.96.126) (Read error: No route to host)
  712. # [18:30] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@69.38.221.130)
  713. # [18:30] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@69.38.221.130) (Changing host)
  714. # [18:30] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona)
  715. # [18:30] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  716. # [18:33] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  717. # [18:38] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  718. # [18:43] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  719. # [18:44] * Joins: mendota (~mendota@c-67-168-209-164.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  720. # [18:45] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:154f:ad4d:ce42:afca) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  721. # [18:48] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-5-85-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  722. # [18:49] * Quits: andrewjbaker (~ajb@ip-81-23-63-2.ask4internet.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  723. # [18:49] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  724. # [18:52] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Remote host closed the connection)
  725. # [18:52] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  726. # [18:52] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com)
  727. # [18:52] <JonathanNeal> howdy
  728. # [18:53] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  729. # [18:54] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  730. # [18:59] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  731. # [19:01] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Quit: adactio)
  732. # [19:04] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@192.150.22.5)
  733. # [19:05] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  734. # [19:06] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-utfaakofumsrrbmf)
  735. # [19:08] <Wilto> How goes, JonathanNeal?
  736. # [19:08] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@94.197.127.125.threembb.co.uk)
  737. # [19:09] * Quits: ap (~ap@c-98-248-236-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ap)
  738. # [19:09] <JonathanNeal> I'm looking to update https://github.com/jonathantneal/html5css Wilto. It's been almost a year!
  739. # [19:10] <JonathanNeal> It's a css document of the presentation guidelines from the html5 spec.
  740. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> basically it's the user agent style sheet the spec recommends.
  741. # [19:12] <Wilto> Huh, interesting.
  742. # [19:12] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-gsmenthpvuyygsyk)
  743. # [19:15] * Joins: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net)
  744. # [19:17] <JonathanNeal> I think so. I think it's important to maintain a document like this.
  745. # [19:18] * Quits: richt (~richt@c83-249-28-214.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  746. # [19:18] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-50-128.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  747. # [19:19] * Quits: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  748. # [19:22] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@63.68.157.173) (Quit: lining up to board, back later)
  749. # [19:24] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  750. # [19:25] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  751. # [19:28] * Quits: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  752. # [19:28] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Remote host closed the connection)
  753. # [19:30] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
  754. # [19:31] * Quits: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70) (Client Quit)
  755. # [19:31] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@94.197.127.125.threembb.co.uk) (Quit: micheil)
  756. # [19:34] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  757. # [19:40] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-8-15.adsl.inetia.pl)
  758. # [19:44] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7B65.dip.t-dialin.net)
  759. # [19:47] * Joins: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-mkyodctjgqrimtej)
  760. # [19:47] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (~eric@17.212.152.104)
  761. # [19:48] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  762. # [19:48] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
  763. # [19:48] * Parts: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
  764. # [19:55] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  765. # [19:57] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  766. # [19:57] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-hakhnoanfpxpqmvb)
  767. # [19:58] * Joins: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  768. # [20:00] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-gsmenthpvuyygsyk) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  769. # [20:01] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-lfhbxtquhxsfapcs)
  770. # [20:01] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-fldduuhguqpvlrew)
  771. # [20:01] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-ylxvgqrqpjxpazkg)
  772. # [20:01] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-8-15.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  773. # [20:03] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  774. # [20:13] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@216.239.45.18)
  775. # [20:16] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733728.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  776. # [20:19] <zewt> in principle, it's possible for a busy-looping task queue to starve out all events in other task queues, right?
  777. # [20:20] <zewt> since the event loop doesn't require any kind of fairness across queues
  778. # [20:21] <jamesr_> zewt, it's organized by task source
  779. # [20:21] <jamesr_> a UA can schedule from any task source
  780. # [20:21] <zewt> right, but if one queue is busy looping, there's no requirement that other task queues are able to run
  781. # [20:21] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  782. # [20:21] <jamesr_> no, i think that'd fall into QoI
  783. # [20:22] <zewt> right
  784. # [20:22] <zewt> was wondering, since it seems like a wrong assumption that https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/setImmediate/Overview.html is making
  785. # [20:22] <zewt> (if you use this, in principle things like MessageChannels might get starved out)
  786. # [20:22] <jamesr_> oh, hah
  787. # [20:23] <jamesr_> yeah that spec is full of poo-brain
  788. # [20:23] <zewt> (though I suspect there are deeper issues with the UI being able to run)
  789. # [20:23] <zewt> i suppose that's a more blunt way of putting it :P
  790. # [20:23] <jamesr_> i don't think anyone will implement it
  791. # [20:23] * Joins: tomasf_ (~tomasf@2002:55e5:dbb7:0:114f:55b:fe16:2c92)
  792. # [20:23] <zewt> given that you can do that with just MessageChannel already, there's really no need (re: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15007)
  793. # [20:23] <jamesr_> (i mean i think IE did in a PP)
  794. # [20:23] * Quits: tomasf_ (~tomasf@2002:55e5:dbb7:0:114f:55b:fe16:2c92) (Client Quit)
  795. # [20:24] <jamesr_> right, we told them that
  796. # [20:24] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  797. # [20:24] * Joins: cgcardona_ (~cgcardona@69.38.221.130)
  798. # [20:24] * Quits: cgcardona_ (~cgcardona@69.38.221.130) (Changing host)
  799. # [20:24] * Joins: cgcardona_ (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona)
  800. # [20:24] <zewt> also although being able to queue a task without setTimeout's delays is nice, I don't like the basic premise of how that's written (as if it's meant to be used to allow CPU-intensive work in the UI thread--ugh no)
  801. # [20:26] * gwicke_ is now known as gwicke
  802. # [20:36] <jamesr_> the only reason we clamp setTimeout is because pages are dumb and flood it
  803. # [20:36] <jamesr_> if authors weren't abusive, we wouldn't need any clamp
  804. # [20:36] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-fldduuhguqpvlrew) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  805. # [20:37] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-ylxvgqrqpjxpazkg) (Quit: tantek_)
  806. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> And there's only clamping inside nested setTimeouts, so you can queue a task without delays already
  807. # [20:39] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:da:d93d:1fbd:628d)
  808. # [20:41] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7B65.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  809. # [20:42] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-50-128.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  810. # [20:43] * Quits: reggna_ (~reggna@godis.olf.sgsnet.se) (Quit: leaving)
  811. # [20:43] <jamesr_> also if you're doing non-trivial work you can avoid the clamp by calling setTimeout() before the work rather than at the end
  812. # [20:44] * Joins: reggna (~reggna@godis.olf.sgsnet.se)
  813. # [20:48] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-uyltwxjhhndqrryi)
  814. # [20:48] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-pszqzamlgelhmfni)
  815. # [20:50] * Joins: catphive (~brenmill@nat/cisco/x-qeppfdcnhpvvvkeb)
  816. # [20:50] <catphive> does anyone know if there are any planned standards for browser based presence?
  817. # [20:51] <tantek_> which meaning of "presence"?
  818. # [20:51] <catphive> like for an IM client
  819. # [20:51] <catphive> detecting if the user is available
  820. # [20:52] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  821. # [20:56] <tantek> catphive - sounds like a useful WebAPI
  822. # [21:03] * Joins: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net)
  823. # [21:04] <martndemus> doesnt chrome have something that keeps track if the actual tab the app is in is active?
  824. # [21:06] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  825. # [21:07] * Quits: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  826. # [21:11] * Joins: bencc (~user@bzq-84-111-74-191.red.bezeqint.net)
  827. # [21:11] <bencc> in websocket who should send pings to keep the connection alive, the client or the server?
  828. # [21:11] <bencc> or maybe the browser does this automatically for me?
  829. # [21:13] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  830. # [21:22] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733728.pool.mediaWays.net)
  831. # [21:26] * Quits: catphive (~brenmill@nat/cisco/x-qeppfdcnhpvvvkeb) (Remote host closed the connection)
  832. # [21:28] * Joins: catphive (~brenmill@nat/cisco/x-smkkwkhueskleksi)
  833. # [21:28] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  834. # [21:29] <jgraham> bencc: The browser should send the ping frames AIUI
  835. # [21:30] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-125-198.dynamic.hinet.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  836. # [21:30] * Joins: kennyluck_ (~kennyluck@114.43.118.197)
  837. # [21:30] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
  838. # [21:30] <jgraham> Bu I haven't read the spec text there closely so I don't know if there are any hard requirements
  839. # [21:30] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114.43.118.197) (Excess Flood)
  840. # [21:30] <bencc> AIUI?
  841. # [21:31] <jgraham> "As I Understand It"
  842. # [21:31] <jgraham> Nope, jut meaningless gloop
  843. # [21:31] <bencc> jgraham: so when I'm creating a websocket in FF or Chrome, the application shouldn't worry about it?
  844. # [21:31] <jgraham> Well the spec says
  845. # [21:31] <jgraham> "An endpoint MAY send a Ping frame any time after the connection is established and before the connection is closed. NOTE: A ping frame may serve either as a keepalive, or to verify that the remote endpoint is still responsive.
  846. # [21:31] <bencc> and also the server shouldn't worry about it?
  847. # [21:31] <jgraham> "
  848. # [21:32] <jgraham> Well the server is required to respond to a ping frame with a pong frame
  849. # [21:32] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Remote host closed the connection)
  850. # [21:32] <bencc> I don't see ping function in the websocket object
  851. # [21:32] <annevk> oh lol
  852. # [21:32] <jgraham> Sure, it isn't API exposed
  853. # [21:32] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  854. # [21:32] <annevk> did they just propose the <intent> tag using DTD syntax
  855. # [21:32] <Hixie> the browser will take care of ping from the client if it's needed
  856. # [21:32] <jgraham> The browser is supposed to do it
  857. # [21:32] <Hixie> the server should take care of ping from the server if the server needs it
  858. # [21:32] <annevk> that's pretty funny considering it's 2011
  859. # [21:32] <jgraham> But it's conforming to never send one
  860. # [21:32] <jgraham> So it's a QoI issue
  861. # [21:33] <jgraham> One hopes there will not be any braindead implementations
  862. # [21:33] <Hixie> in some situations, sending pings is actually really bad
  863. # [21:33] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-8-15.adsl.inetia.pl)
  864. # [21:33] <jgraham> But that is not a safe assumption
  865. # [21:33] <Hixie> e.g. if you have a flaky network connection, every ping is a chance of the connection dropping
  866. # [21:33] <Hixie> whereas if you just didnt' send anything it might survive fine
  867. # [21:33] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  868. # [21:33] <Hixie> e.g. sometimes at home i'm on wifi and the neighbours turn their microwave on and the wifi goes down for 3 minutes
  869. # [21:33] <jgraham> If you have a really flaky connection you are probably screwed anyway
  870. # [21:34] <Hixie> if i notice this happen, i can just stop using the network, and all the apps i use that don't do keepalive survive with no probelms whatsoever
  871. # [21:34] <Hixie> but the apps that think they're clever and do keepalive all die
  872. # [21:34] * Joins: rillian__ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  873. # [21:34] <bencc> but sending a ping is the only way the server can check if the client is alive, isn't it?
  874. # [21:34] <jgraham> I mean I don't imagine that web authors are going to design with your neighbourgh's microwave in mind
  875. # [21:34] <Hixie> jgraham: it's just an example, the problem is far worse e.g. on mobile
  876. # [21:34] <bencc> in a chat, you want users to know if someone is offline
  877. # [21:35] <Hixie> jgraham: where you might be going past a big building that blocks the signal, or whatever
  878. # [21:35] <bencc> without pings, you can have zombie sessions
  879. # [21:35] <jgraham> Right, I understand that the connection can be flaky. But authors are going to assume that it isn't
  880. # [21:35] <jgraham> So it's not at all clear that pings make it worse
  881. # [21:36] <bencc> in the server the logic is a bit tricky
  882. # [21:36] <Hixie> well it seems clear that in the two examples i gave, pings are worse than no pings
  883. # [21:36] <Hixie> but i agree that there are use cases for pings
  884. # [21:37] <bencc> Let's that if the client is idle for 1 mintue, I'm sending a ping
  885. # [21:37] <Hixie> i'm just saying it's not a given that sending a ping is better than not sending one
  886. # [21:37] <bencc> now, the first response might not be the pong but a new message
  887. # [21:37] <jgraham> In any case the protocol-level pings are not something that the author can control
  888. # [21:37] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  889. # [21:37] <jgraham> But you can always build something identical into your application
  890. # [21:37] <bencc> the server author should implement it
  891. # [21:38] <jgraham> If you need it for some reason
  892. # [21:38] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@94.197.127.125.threembb.co.uk)
  893. # [21:38] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733728.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  894. # [21:38] <bencc> I want to know if the user is offline in a 1 minute window
  895. # [21:38] <bencc> for a chat app
  896. # [21:38] <Hixie> define "offline"
  897. # [21:38] <bencc> dead
  898. # [21:38] <bencc> wolfs eating his body
  899. # [21:38] <Hixie> am i offline if i happen to be in the middle of a conversation but the car i'm in goes through a tunnel for 61 seconds?
  900. # [21:38] <bencc> eagles are circling in the skies
  901. # [21:39] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733728.pool.mediaWays.net)
  902. # [21:39] <bencc> if that's the case, increase the window to 3 minutes
  903. # [21:39] <Hixie> am i offline if i happen to be in the middle of a conversation but the car i'm in goes through a tunnel for 181 seconds?
  904. # [21:39] <bencc> are you familiar with tunnels that long?
  905. # [21:39] <bencc> yes
  906. # [21:39] <Hixie> yes
  907. # [21:40] <bencc> am I offline if I'm dead and suddenly a miracle happened and I'm alive again?
  908. # [21:40] <Hixie> are you offline if you're dead at all?
  909. # [21:40] <bencc> good question
  910. # [21:41] <bencc> so it's 1 minute for 99.99% of the people
  911. # [21:41] <bencc> and 3 minutes for you because of the washing machine and your long tunnel
  912. # [21:42] <annevk> why would you use ping for that at all...
  913. # [21:43] <bencc> now I need to handle users without a computer...
  914. # [21:43] <annevk> if the other person doesn't say anything, clearly he's away
  915. # [21:43] <annevk> doesn't really matter what the reason is
  916. # [21:43] <bencc> in IM you can be online but quiet
  917. # [21:44] <annevk> you can also be offline but still appear online
  918. # [21:44] <annevk> Gmail seems to work that way
  919. # [21:44] <annevk> Gmail chat that is
  920. # [21:45] <annevk> doesn't really matter
  921. # [21:45] <bencc> in Gmail you suppose to appear online only if you are logged in
  922. # [21:45] <bencc> if you see someone is online and send him a message he is supposed to see the message right away
  923. # [21:47] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  924. # [21:48] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  925. # [21:48] * Joins: JonathanNeal1 (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com)
  926. # [21:49] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  927. # [21:49] * Quits: JonathanNeal1 (~Jonathan@cpe-67-49-64-18.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  928. # [21:54] <jgraham> bencc: That is such a bad assumption. e.g. my connection here is maintained all the time. Sometimes I am asleep or not at a computer
  929. # [21:54] <Hixie> same here
  930. # [21:55] <Hixie> same with all my IM clients actually. I proxy them all through a computer that is always online, regardless of where I am, and I connect to that proxy remotely when I'm really online, to collect my messages.
  931. # [21:55] <bencc> that's a question of user experience
  932. # [21:56] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, presenting stuff with a DTD in 2011 is very funny
  933. # [21:56] <jgraham> It's like the last 10 years didn't happen
  934. # [21:56] <bencc> you might turn the user to 'busy' if he is not using the UI for 10 mintues
  935. # [21:56] * jgraham just finds the busy/away/etc stuff confusing
  936. # [21:57] <Hixie> my /away status rarely has any bearing on my actual status
  937. # [21:57] <bencc> that's a question of user experience
  938. # [21:57] <bencc> you are still "online"
  939. # [21:57] <jgraham> I never know if the person is really busy or if they are really around but the computer decided that they were budy for some reason
  940. # [21:57] <bencc> gmail chat works perfect for me
  941. # [21:57] <bencc> when I see a friend online he is available to chat with me
  942. # [21:58] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  943. # [22:04] * Quits: Margle (~margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  944. # [22:04] <Hixie> does anyone actually implement nested workers and message channels yet?
  945. # [22:04] <annevk> you mean shared workers?
  946. # [22:04] <annevk> Opera and WebKit I believe
  947. # [22:04] <Hixie> no, not shared workers
  948. # [22:05] <Hixie> the Worker() and MessageChannel() constructors, in a worker
  949. # [22:06] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  950. # [22:06] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  951. # [22:07] <Hixie> looks like firefox doesn't implement MessageChannel
  952. # [22:09] <Hixie> opera throws an INVALID_STATE_ERR exception from postMessage(), which is impossible per spec as far as i can tell
  953. # [22:09] <Hixie> webkit doesn't support Worker() inside workers
  954. # [22:11] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  955. # [22:13] <tantek_> Hixie - what would that be, the middle management feature?
  956. # [22:13] <Hixie> -_-
  957. # [22:13] <tantek_> or would you need more than one level of hierarchy for that
  958. # [22:14] <Hixie> more like the subcontractor feature, if we're going to go with this metaphor
  959. # [22:14] <Hixie> anyone actually got IE10 around?
  960. # [22:14] <tantek_> subcontractor would mean cross-origin though
  961. # [22:15] <zewt> bencc: sounds like false negatives; gmail knows the user is around if he's moving the mouse around a gmail tab, but if the user isn't using gmail it has no idea whether the user is there or not
  962. # [22:15] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-8-15.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  963. # [22:16] <zewt> eg. if it says the user is there he probably is, but if it says he isn't, it doesn't actually know at all
  964. # [22:16] <tantek_> so presence is tab-specific? that seems to make sense
  965. # [22:16] <tantek_> as, in you'd want to know if the user is present in the page's context, not just on the machine somewhere
  966. # [22:16] <zewt> i'm just talking about gmail in browsers; certainly it should not be able to tell whether i'm active in another tab (privacy)
  967. # [22:16] <jgraham> tantek_: It means that G+ tells me that annevk is away when he is talking here
  968. # [22:17] <tantek_> I suppose both could be useful
  969. # [22:17] <tantek_> is the user active on the machine
  970. # [22:17] <tantek_> is the user active on this page
  971. # [22:17] <annevk> I'd rather not reveal any of that
  972. # [22:17] <annevk> as a user
  973. # [22:17] <jgraham> Me too, but it isn't really possible to stop
  974. # [22:18] <zewt> how so?
  975. # [22:18] <tantek_> annevk - that's why it makes sense as a WebAPI - it's a permissions like thing similar to Geo etc
  976. # [22:18] <jgraham> zewt: Well the "on this machine" thing is since that doesn't work at all at present
  977. # [22:18] <jgraham> but the "on this page" isn't
  978. # [22:19] <zewt> i don't care if pages know i'm using the page, but they shouldn't be able to tell that I'm active otherwise (without extra permission)
  979. # [22:19] <jgraham> Or "on any page that has the same user identifier"
  980. # [22:19] <jgraham> (so facebook could know that you are active on any site that uses facebook login for example)
  981. # [22:20] <zewt> i was just responding to above <bencc> gmail chat works perfect for me
  982. # [22:20] <zewt> his "perfect" seemed to be flawed
  983. # [22:20] <jgraham> Yeah, I agree. It's not possible to make it perfect
  984. # [22:21] <zewt> i mean, his evaluation of "perfect"
  985. # [22:21] <jgraham> "do I want to chat right now" isn't realy something that you can infer automatically
  986. # [22:21] <zewt> <bencc> when I see a friend online he is available to chat with me
  987. # [22:21] <annevk> jgraham: fwiw, I'm permanently marked "Away", but usually when the music track changes I'm actually there :)
  988. # [22:21] <zewt> my point was that the reverse is not going to be true--people are available to chat, even though gmail says they're not (i expect)
  989. # [22:21] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  990. # [22:21] <jgraham> annevk: It's OK I never intend to contact you through google plus. And don't really have that much interest in stalking you
  991. # [22:22] <jgraham> Although people do think you're a girl so maybe you will get stalkers
  992. # [22:22] <jgraham> s/plus/chat/
  993. # [22:23] <annevk> only girls get stalkers?
  994. # [22:23] <zewt> not exclusively, but i expect there's a great bias in that direction
  995. # [22:23] <annevk> anyway, not going to add anyone to Google Chat I don't like :)
  996. # [22:24] <zewt> at least in technical corners of the internet, with the usual gender ratios :P
  997. # [22:25] <jgraham> In the technical corners of the internet p(man|called anne) > p(woman|called anne)
  998. # [22:25] <jgraham> :(
  999. # [22:25] <jgraham> (note: this is almost certianly not true)
  1000. # [22:25] <zewt> yeah, it says something that i just assumed from the start that anne was probably a guy
  1001. # [22:26] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733728.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1002. # [22:26] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
  1003. # [22:27] <zewt> i couldn't quite make that leap with Silvia, though
  1004. # [22:28] <wilhelm> How do Safari / WebKit version numbers work? What does 534.51.22, 7534.48.3 or 6533.18.5 correspond to? (Those numbers are from UA strings.)
  1005. # [22:28] <zewt> magic
  1006. # [22:29] <zewt> am I the only person in the world that Firefox save dialogs ignore? heh
  1007. # [22:29] <zewt> for years, over endless versions of FF and different versions of Windows, i've had to hit alt-s 2-3 times to get the save dialog to go
  1008. # [22:30] * Parts: bencc (~user@bzq-84-111-74-191.red.bezeqint.net)
  1009. # [22:30] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-xjcyllnsmgvuzcvm)
  1010. # [22:31] <sicking> annevk: ping
  1011. # [22:31] <annevk> hey sicking
  1012. # [22:31] <sicking> annevk: I'm really interested to hear your take on supporting non UTF8 encoded HTML documents in XHR
  1013. # [22:32] <annevk> I actually think that maybe we should limit that to UTF-8 too
  1014. # [22:32] <sicking> annevk: HUH?!?
  1015. # [22:33] <sicking> annevk: that excludes some 50% of the worlds HTML
  1016. # [22:33] <zewt> annevk: I'm really interested to hear your take on supporting non UTF8 encoded HTML documents in XHR, as long as you agree with me
  1017. # [22:33] <sicking> zewt: no, i was very intersted in hearing dissenting opinions too. That doesn't mean i agree with them
  1018. # [22:33] <zewt> i know :P
  1019. # [22:34] <zewt> sicking: what about only supporting validly-tagged HTML documents, rejecting the fuzzy parts (heuristics and locale-specific defaults)? that's where the *real* evil is
  1020. # [22:34] <sicking> annevk: have you talked to anyone in CJK countries about this?
  1021. # [22:34] <annevk> sicking: not sure existing documents will be the primary use case, but I'm happy with what hsivonen implemented
  1022. # [22:34] <sicking> annevk: have you talked to anyone in CJK countries about this?
  1023. # [22:35] <sicking> annevk: and why do you think new content is the primary use case?
  1024. # [22:35] <zewt> people in cjk countries (especially japan) seem to live under serious misunderstandings of utf-8 (not that saying that changes it)
  1025. # [22:35] <annevk> sicking: I haven't, though I did suggest pinging myakura last time you brought this up
  1026. # [22:36] <sicking> annevk: sigh, ok
  1027. # [22:36] <annevk> sicking: I'm not really worried about shipping a more restrictive feature and then have people complain and we adapt
  1028. # [22:36] <annevk> sicking: I'm more worried about getting in the same mess we got in with CORS
  1029. # [22:36] <sicking> annevk: we get basically no feedback from that part of the world. I wouldn't take a lack of complaint to mean anything
  1030. # [22:36] <annevk> where we have something very complex that's hard to use for people
  1031. # [22:36] <annevk> sicking: this feature is not really deployed
  1032. # [22:36] <sicking> annevk: yeah, the fact that it's header based is a bigger problem than I had thought
  1033. # [22:37] <annevk> sicking: when I'm next in Tokyo I'll ask
  1034. # [22:37] <sicking> annevk: the deployment cycle is probably at least a year or two for something like this. Waiting for deployment before we see what the use cases are will create a 4 year cycle
  1035. # [22:38] <sicking> annevk: i'll email some of our mozilla-japan people and cc you
  1036. # [22:38] <annevk> just let them email public-webapps
  1037. # [22:38] <annevk> that seems better
  1038. # [22:39] <zewt> annevk: i don't think it needs to be complex; take "determining the character encoding" and throw away the last three steps (replace with utf-8)
  1039. # [22:39] <annevk> the use case to me is primarily that it's easy to get a DOM out of some HTML on the server
  1040. # [22:39] <zewt> (or rather, any new complexity)
  1041. # [22:39] <sicking> annevk: we're still really bad at getting the community to speak up on that list
  1042. # [22:39] <sicking> annevk: and that's the english speaking community
  1043. # [22:39] <annevk> that you have to maybe fix that HTML first is not really a big concern to me, things need to adapt over time to meet new requirements
  1044. # [22:40] <sicking> annevk: i didn't understand that
  1045. # [22:40] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye!)
  1046. # [22:40] <annevk> sicking: myakura chairs a Japenese interest group and is involved in the Japenese HTML5 user group (or some such) with over 2000 developers involved
  1047. # [22:41] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  1048. # [22:42] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@3239059-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1049. # [22:43] <sicking> annevk: is this myakura.web@gmail.com?
  1050. # [22:44] <sicking> annevk: i see very little feedback from him
  1051. # [22:44] <sicking> annevk: which either means that the user group is happy with everything we do, or that the communication channel isn't working that great yet
  1052. # [22:45] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7B65.dip.t-dialin.net)
  1053. # [22:45] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7B65.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  1054. # [22:46] <annevk> I very much doubt this is a big problem; if you run the kind of site that uses XMLHttpRequest you will very soon run into encodings and adapt appropriately
  1055. # [22:47] <annevk> e.g. most things transmitted towards the server will be in UTF-8
  1056. # [22:47] <zewt> a lot of people in japan don't "like" utf-8 and use sjis on purpose
  1057. # [22:47] <sicking> annevk: if you're submitting stuff yeah
  1058. # [22:48] <annevk> if you're reading with responseText too
  1059. # [22:48] <annevk> it's fairly limited what responseText does
  1060. # [22:48] <annevk> (more broad than I'd like, but still limited)
  1061. # [22:49] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
  1062. # [22:51] <annevk> zewt: not really sure that's still the case
  1063. # [22:52] * Joins: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net)
  1064. # [22:52] <jgraham> I heard it was still the case recently, but I don't think I have data
  1065. # [22:52] <zewt> hard to gather real data on, it's a social/perception thing
  1066. # [22:52] <annevk> anyway, using shift_jis is not really problematic
  1067. # [22:55] <zewt> (... as long as it's declared correctly)
  1068. # [22:55] <annevk> the only problem with shift_jis is that we haven't really defined all its details
  1069. # [22:56] * Quits: WolfieZero (~wolfiezer@jennie-en0.manor.fubra.net.manor.fubra.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1070. # [22:56] <annevk> IE that "shift_jis" actually maps to Microsoft Code Page 932 with error handling that is probably not even defined in that Code Page
  1071. # [22:56] <annevk> s/IE/i.e./
  1072. # [22:57] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1073. # [22:58] * Quits: martndemus (~martndemu@h254064.upc-h.chello.nl) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  1074. # [22:58] <zewt> trying to fully specify the legacy encodings doesn't exactly seem worth it
  1075. # [22:59] <annevk> every now and then we still hit compat issues and it makes it harder for people writing software that interprets legacy content
  1076. # [22:59] <annevk> seems totally worth it
  1077. # [23:00] <annevk> it's a bit of work, but a lot can be automated
  1078. # [23:00] <zewt> seems like another lever to get more people to stop perpetuating legacy encodings :P
  1079. # [23:01] <zewt> at least most encodings are simpler and tiny compared to the CJK ones
  1080. # [23:01] <annevk> I did a bunch of work on the 8bit encodings already http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/8-bit-labels
  1081. # [23:02] <annevk> just need to make some decisions on who is right, and update everything for today's implementations
  1082. # [23:02] <annevk> Opera and Gecko made a few changes
  1083. # [23:03] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1084. # [23:04] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-165f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  1085. # [23:06] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@bdb231.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  1086. # [23:06] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@bdb231.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Changing host)
  1087. # [23:06] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  1088. # [23:09] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1089. # [23:13] * Quits: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk) (Quit: ...)
  1090. # [23:13] <sicking> annevk: by the way, we can totally "fix" CORS though
  1091. # [23:14] <sicking> annevk: adding back the in-document access indicator that we used to have for XML would do the trick
  1092. # [23:14] * Parts: catphive (~brenmill@nat/cisco/x-smkkwkhueskleksi)
  1093. # [23:14] <sicking> annevk: but not for XML of course
  1094. # [23:15] <sicking> annevk: adding a in-line for JSON would be huge
  1095. # [23:15] <zewt> but images :(
  1096. # [23:15] <sicking> s/in-line/in-line access descriptor/
  1097. # [23:15] <sicking> zewt: i don't see how you could do those without using headers
  1098. # [23:15] <zewt> (not *personally* worried; I'd never willingly work in an environment where I can't set headers)
  1099. # [23:16] <jgraham> Hmm, how would one add it to JSON?
  1100. # [23:16] <zewt> though I guess that's not enough, since what matters is whether the service I'm using can set it, not what I can do :(
  1101. # [23:16] * jgraham might be misunderstanding
  1102. # [23:17] <zewt> you could add it in a non-conforming-to-JSON way with a Javascript header, though that'd be evil
  1103. # [23:17] <annevk> sicking: your definition of fixing it is adding yet more bloat; I'm intrigued :)
  1104. # [23:17] <sicking> annevk: i think we would have needed the headers no matter what
  1105. # [23:18] <sicking> annevk: features != bloat
  1106. # [23:18] <sicking> annevk: unused features == bloat
  1107. # [23:18] <sicking> or "unneeded" more accurately
  1108. # [23:19] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-165f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Quit: And Now for Something Completely Different.)
  1109. # [23:19] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.39.236) (Quit: Bye!)
  1110. # [23:20] <zewt> wonder if there are security implications to inline declarations (eg. upload file to github or a pastebin or something, use the "raw text" link to serve remote files with the access grant inline)
  1111. # [23:21] * Joins: Echoes2 (echoes@195.191.156.25)
  1112. # [23:21] <tantek> Hixie, per our discussion a few days ago on permit space instead of "T" in the date-and-time microsyntax, where you said "tantek: if we can collect evidence e.g. showing that there are common parsers that support a nicer format, i'm certainly all for it, fwiw" - I've now collected that evidence and think we have enough to go on.
  1113. # [23:21] <tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#permit_space_instead_of_T_in_datetimes
  1114. # [23:22] <tantek> cc: TabAtkins, mkanat, kennyluck
  1115. # [23:23] <zewt> tantek: fyi, i think i was mistaken about IE8 (may have mixed up my browser windows or something)
  1116. # [23:23] <tantek> zewt - noted in the research :)
  1117. # [23:23] <zewt> so you may as well remove the reference :)
  1118. # [23:24] <tantek> well it helps to say if it supports it or not one way or the other
  1119. # [23:24] <tantek> do you have it in front of you?
  1120. # [23:24] <tantek> can you check:
  1121. # [23:24] <tantek> data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>alert(Date.parse("2011-11-11 11:11:11"))</script>
  1122. # [23:24] <zewt> pretty sure the second half of that sentence is the correct one (its own toString format)
  1123. # [23:24] <tantek> if we can say for sure it returns NaN - that's another useful data point
  1124. # [23:24] <zewt> ie8 != data:
  1125. # [23:24] <tantek> ah thanks
  1126. # [23:25] <zewt> and yes, returns NaN
  1127. # [23:25] <zewt> returns NaN for "2011-11-11T11:11:11" as well--useful to include both (if an implementation doesn't support *T*, it doesn't matter if it doesn't support * * either)
  1128. # [23:27] <tantek> oh that's interesting, yes.
  1129. # [23:27] <tantek> I wonder if that's the same for IE9 and IE10 also
  1130. # [23:27] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  1131. # [23:28] <zewt> "it does help readability, incrementally" i think it's at least marginally stronger than that; it's a natural, human format, where *T* really isn't
  1132. # [23:28] <zewt> fwiw, anyway
  1133. # [23:31] <heycam> annevk, I did not add a warning about const, but I am happy to. wording suggestions welcome.
  1134. # [23:33] <annevk> heycam: I added something in the bug
  1135. # [23:33] <heycam> thanks
  1136. # [23:33] <annevk> heycam: preferably .warning has a red border and such :)
  1137. # [23:33] <heycam> that's perhaps a good idea
  1138. # [23:33] <zewt> tantek, fyi postgresql also accepts that format, and its commandline omits T by default as well (2011-12-06 15:27:00.706385-07)
  1139. # [23:34] <zewt> (minor data point)
  1140. # [23:35] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1141. # [23:38] * Joins: martndemus (~martndemu@h254064.upc-h.chello.nl)
  1142. # [23:38] <Hixie> tantek: k, i'll update the proposal in the spec
  1143. # [23:43] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.55.40) (Quit: nn)
  1144. # [23:45] * Quits: reuben_ (~Seta00@seta00.com) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  1145. # [23:46] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-pszqzamlgelhmfni) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  1146. # [23:46] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-yswkxhonlalaebvy)
  1147. # [23:51] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925212153.dsl.bell.ca)
  1148. # [23:52] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925212153.dsl.bell.ca) (Client Quit)
  1149. # Session Close: Wed Dec 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)