/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 08 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-esqegxbmioeccbzh)
  4. # [00:02] <gavinc> Well, the example in HTML comes out as A��B�C☺�... so perhaps some test cases are in order :D
  5. # [00:04] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  7. # [00:08] <gavinc> https://gist.github.com/1445180
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  9. # [00:10] <annevk> Wilto: ?
  10. # [00:11] <annevk> hsivonen: cool
  11. # [00:11] <Wilto> Hey man, Mike Taylor mentioned I might want to get ahold of you—I’ve been working with Scott Jehl et al. on the whole “responsive images” problem.
  12. # [00:11] <annevk> Hixie: that can be fixed, I'm currently just overwriting files
  13. # [00:11] <Wilto> We whipped up that canvas-based demo the other day.
  14. # [00:11] <Wilto> ( http://scottjehl.com/imgwithfallback.html )
  15. # [00:12] <annevk> ah cool
  16. # [00:12] <annevk> yeah brucel keeps bugging me about it
  17. # [00:12] <Wilto> He doesn’t know it, but he might have just become my hero.
  18. # [00:12] <Wilto> I’ve been obsessing over this stuff for months.
  19. # [00:12] <annevk> so personally I'm not sure the requirements from authors are quite clear enough for a new markup feature
  20. # [00:12] <annevk> that's my a
  21. # [00:13] <annevk> my b is that I sort of feel that long term bandwidth will be less of an issue and everything will be 300ppi
  22. # [00:13] <annevk> and new markup only hits long term
  23. # [00:13] <Hixie> annevk: if you would that'd be great. i had someone send me a link to the webrtc section today, without them realising it was dead
  24. # [00:13] * Quits: martndemus (~martndemu@h254064.upc-h.chello.nl) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  25. # [00:13] <annevk> Hixie: so probably tomorrow around this time it will be fixed
  26. # [00:14] <annevk> Hixie: unless I get to it before going to bed somehow
  27. # [00:14] <Hixie> annevk: roger, thanks
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  29. # [00:17] <annevk> Wilto: both a and b might be false; there's not really sufficient information imo other than that some people are hitting this problem today
  30. # [00:18] <Wilto> annevk: Granted, yeah. And believe me, I have in no way been banking on “we need a new element”—I assume that’s a phrase that’s thrown around a lot when people first run into an issue like this.
  31. # [00:18] <annevk> Wilto: that's the brucel stance :)
  32. # [00:18] <Wilto> Thing is—and again, not something I say easily—this just doesn’t feel solvable on the front end.
  33. # [00:19] <Wilto> I would absolutely love to write up the history of the issue. I’m sure you guys have been getting it in fits and starts.
  34. # [00:20] <Wilto> It is a sordid tale of cookies and dynamically-injected base tags.
  35. # [00:21] <zewt> gar, quotostrophes
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  38. # [00:22] <Wilto> The general thinking is that a reliable fallback pattern already exists in video/audio/canvas.
  39. # [00:23] <zewt> but that's a different pattern
  40. # [00:23] <heycam> Hixie, yes SVG does have path objects. but they, like much of the SVG DOM, suck. :)
  41. # [00:23] <annevk> Wilto: yeah I know, but that is mostly for different formats, although admittedly media queries are there (not sure if they are implemented though)
  42. # [00:23] <Wilto> Well, in terms of not breaking things that already exist.
  43. # [00:23] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa33-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  44. # [00:24] <heycam> Hixie, so we (SVGWG) want to improve the SVG DOM in the SVG2 timeframe (so some time over the next year)
  45. # [00:24] <Hixie> heycam: Are these the DOM nodes for some sort of path element, or are they separate Path objects?
  46. # [00:24] <heycam> Hixie, no, separate path objects
  47. # [00:24] <heycam> Hixie, however unlike say SVGPoint/SVGMatrix you can't create a disconnected SVGPath
  48. # [00:24] <heycam> Hixie, they only exist to reflect path data on elements at the moment
  49. # [00:24] <Hixie> k
  50. # [00:24] <Hixie> i'm gonna guess i'll be coming up with a new interface, but i'll take a look to see what can be reused...
  51. # [00:25] <heycam> Hixie, ok if you get to it before we do (which sounds likely) I'll take a look at what you come up with and see where to go from there
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  53. # [00:25] <Hixie> i'm expecting to do work on canvas early next year
  54. # [00:26] <Hixie> one of the things is adding the path primitives
  55. # [00:26] <Hixie> would be great to have your feedback when i do, of course
  56. # [00:26] <heycam> yep sure
  57. # [00:26] <Wilto> annevk: So, in your opinion, is this idea a total non-starter?
  58. # [00:26] <annevk> Wilto: no, all I have is some thoughts
  59. # [00:26] <Hixie> heycam: i dunno how much similar they'll be. I mean, some of the stuff I'm looking at doing is the focus ring stuff, hit testing, etc.
  60. # [00:27] <Wilto> Or would it help if I wrote up, uh, anything. Like I said: desperate times.
  61. # [00:27] <annevk> Wilto: what we need for standards is mostly data
  62. # [00:27] <annevk> Wilto: which indeed usually starts with someone outlining the problem and such
  63. # [00:27] <Hixie> heycam: explicit stroking and filling, adding text to a path, create a path with text along another path
  64. # [00:27] <heycam> Hixie, but these'll be methods on the canvas rather than the path object I would expect?
  65. # [00:27] <annevk> Wilto: in this case someone might have already done something in that direction, I forgot, but not recently
  66. # [00:27] <Hixie> heycam: dunno
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  68. # [00:27] <annevk> Wilto: you can take a few hints from http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F
  69. # [00:28] <heycam> Hixie, create a path with text along another path eh :) yes we're interested in a "convert text to its outline paths" too (probably including text along a path)
  70. # [00:28] <annevk> Wilto: it's not a literal process, but it contains the steps we usually go through
  71. # [00:28] <Wilto> annevk: No—we’ve got lots of notes on the subject, but the official documentation is pretty much “ask me.” I just wanted to check in with you to see if I was completely off the rails, y’know?
  72. # [00:28] <annevk> Wilto: okay
  73. # [00:29] <annevk> Wilto: so no, you're not, a write up would be great
  74. # [00:29] <Wilto> Excellent. I appreciate you taking the time, man!
  75. # [00:29] <annevk> Wilto: we can't really promise anything, but it's valuable to have that information
  76. # [00:29] <Wilto> Oh, no, no promises expected. It doesn’t hurt to have it all down on paper somewhere anyway.
  77. # [00:30] <annevk> Wilto: even if we decide not to do it in the end, at least it's more reasoned than a hunch from someone
  78. # [00:30] <gavinc> The over long utf-8 sequence \xC0\xAF (/) should produce a SINGLE U+FFFD character is that the correct reading of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#utf-8 ?
  79. # [00:30] <annevk> Wilto: right; cool!
  80. # [00:30] <annevk> and with that I'm gonna get some sleep :)
  81. # [00:30] <Wilto> Have a good one!
  82. # [00:30] <annevk> nn
  83. # [00:31] <zewt> gavinc: yep; a whole overlong sequence is replaced with a single replacement character
  84. # [00:32] <gavinc> zewt: Guess what Java and Python don't do? ;)
  85. # [00:32] <zewt> lots of software don't deal with overlong sequences adequately
  86. # [00:32] <zewt> i don't think vim does
  87. # [00:33] <gavinc> yeah, iconv doesn't seem to :\
  88. # [00:33] <gavinc> Not sure I'm calling it correctly however
  89. # [00:33] <zewt> it's not always wanted--in some cases faster performance with less checks is the goal
  90. # [00:34] <zewt> python seems to throw an error on that sequence
  91. # [00:34] <gavinc> print '\xc0\xaf'.decode('utf-8', 'replace')
  92. # [00:34] <zewt> >>> '\xc0\xaf'.decode("utf-8")
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  94. # [00:34] <zewt> in replace mode i'm not sure
  95. # [00:34] <zewt> though
  96. # [00:34] <gavinc> �� :D
  97. # [00:34] <zewt> ah right, that's legal, just a different recovery mode
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  99. # [00:35] <gavinc> close, seems to meet all the other HTML5 rules
  100. # [00:36] <zewt> vim doesn't detect it and converts it directly :(
  101. # [00:37] <gavinc> bad vim!
  102. # [00:37] <zewt> well
  103. # [00:37] <zewt> vim keeps the original binary sequence unchanged; what's wrong is that it renders it
  104. # [00:37] <gavinc> as a slash?
  105. # [00:37] <zewt> yeah
  106. # [00:38] <zewt> probably just a naive utf-8 decoder
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  112. # [00:48] <Hixie> kennyluck: I need more context for some of your bugs! :-) (e.g. bug 14890)
  113. # [00:49] <Hixie> haha
  114. # [00:50] <Hixie> bug 15051 ends with "omg, you wannbe w3c"
  115. # [00:50] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure if there's one thing i don't want to be, it's the w3c. :-P
  116. # [00:50] <Hixie> dunno about you guys. :-P
  117. # [00:50] <zewt> hixietf
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  124. # [01:17] <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15033 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15035 got put in "other Hixie specs" instead of "HTML5 spec" for some reason
  125. # [01:17] <dbaron> (they both came from the whatwg spec comment form, I think)
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  171. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> man, the hover behavior and popups in the Firefox built-in Inspect tool are way awesome
  172. # [02:42] <paul_irish> so hot
  173. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> yeah
  174. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> nice clean simple UI
  175. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> responsiveness is great
  176. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> the way that inspectors in other browsers have been doing it now seems backwards
  177. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> I think you more often want to go from the rendered view and find the part of the HTML source that corresponds to that
  178. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> rather than the other way around
  179. # [02:46] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  180. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> definitely much better if all you need to do is, say, just see if a particular part of the page has an id, and what the id is
  181. # [02:48] <MikeSmith> wondering if the plan is for this to ship in Firefox 10
  182. # [02:49] <TabAtkins> Ooh, it has improved!
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  184. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> yeah
  185. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> I said Firefox but I meant Minefield of course
  186. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> er, Nightly now I guess
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  193. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> really nice to have built-in debugging tools in Firefox
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  199. # [03:06] <zewt> hmm
  200. # [03:07] <zewt> how would a spec go about interpreting the first argument (if any) of an "any..." argument as a particular WebIDL dictionary type
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  202. # [03:09] <zewt> eg. getContext("webgl", { alpha: true })
  203. # [03:11] <heycam> zewt, good question. you at least want to invoke the conversion steps for JS value to IDL dictionary value.
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  205. # [03:12] <heycam> there's nothing in the spec currently that lets you say to do this conversion without saying "take the JS value that was passed as the second argument and _convert_ it to an IDL value of type MyDictionary".
  206. # [03:12] <zewt> been poking around looking for prior art
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  208. # [03:12] <heycam> yeah I'm not sure there is any
  209. # [03:12] <zewt> (not to dictionary--it's too new--but to any type)
  210. # [03:13] <heycam> any… is probably just used for setTimeout and friends?
  211. # [03:13] <heycam> where it doesn't do any explicit conversion of JS to IDL values of those any… things
  212. # [03:13] <zewt> canvas.getContext uses it
  213. # [03:13] <zewt> because the arguments are context-type-specific
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  215. # [03:13] <heycam> but does it actually use it for '2d'?
  216. # [03:13] <zewt> nope, it ignores any arguments
  217. # [03:14] <zewt> (i'm trying to get this cleaned up in webgl; it's a bit ad hoc right now)
  218. # [03:15] <heycam> so the quoted sentence I give above would be ok. it is language specific (but who cares).
  219. # [03:15] <zewt> can "JS" just be dropped? "take the value ..."
  220. # [03:16] <heycam> yeah maybe. you want it to be clear though that it's a particular language value, and not an IDL value.
  221. # [03:17] <heycam> also if you want _convert_ to go somewhere useful you've only got specific language binding conversions in web idl. there's no generic "convert" definition that says "if the value is JS, follow the steps in this section. if it's java, follow these other steps."
  222. # [03:17] <zewt> there's also the error case (TypeError)...
  223. # [03:18] <heycam> on my todo list is to add IDL-level exceptions with those names, and map them to the same things in JS
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  226. # [03:19] <zewt> might be hard to market this as an improvement if i have to do that, plus "if the conversion is illegal, throw this exception and terminate these steps", starts to get bloaty
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  228. # [03:20] <heycam> if you do link _convert_ to the relevant steps, then you get the exception thrown automatically
  229. # [03:20] <zewt> hmm
  230. # [03:20] <heycam> so you shouldn't need to mention it
  231. # [03:21] <zewt> are there any calls-out-to-algorithms where the algorithm throws an exception and terminates the caller algorithm?
  232. # [03:21] <zewt> don't think i've ever seen that
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  236. # [03:21] <heycam> in other specs? I am not too sure, but the rules I use for the algorithms within Web IDL is that exceptions propagate out of algorithms and can terminate them.
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  239. # [03:22] <zewt> i'd be surprised by that, since if I'm reading an algorithm in isolation I'm not expecting that any call to another algorithm might terminate it (unless the algorithm says so explicitly)
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  242. # [03:23] <zewt> ("do this thing, and terminate these steps on failure" or something)
  243. # [03:23] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  244. # [03:23] <heycam> is that what the html spec does?
  245. # [03:23] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  246. # [03:23] <zewt> i've never seen called-algorithms-terminating-the-caller in html
  247. # [03:24] <heycam> ok
  248. # [03:24] <heycam> does html have called algorithms throw particular exceptions?
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  250. # [03:25] <zewt> i don't remember seeing it, but ping @ hixie
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  253. # [03:30] <jamesr_> how much work does webidl do to support non-js impls?
  254. # [03:30] <heycam> jamesr_, there's a whole java binding appendix. but it's going to get ripped out. :o
  255. # [03:30] <jamesr_> and that's the only other binding?
  256. # [03:30] <heycam> yes
  257. # [03:31] <jamesr_> i guess it's time for the java bindings to be... (puts on csi:miami sunglasses) .... garbage collected
  258. # [03:31] <heycam> ha
  259. # [03:31] <zewt> found one example, the "XML fragment serialization algorithm" can throw an exception, and the place it's used explicitly mentions that it might throw (havn't found one like this that's part of a list of steps, though)
  260. # [03:33] <heycam> zewt, ok, yeah I want to see when an algorithm is invoked whether it notes that an exception might come out of it
  261. # [03:33] <Hixie> i hope that every time i throw an exception in a child algorithm, i catch it / say to propagate it
  262. # [03:33] <Hixie> file bugs if i screwed that up anywhere
  263. # [03:34] <Hixie> i do have some algorithms that (without exceptions) explicitly abort their caller
  264. # [03:34] <Hixie> media resource loading or whatever it's called may be one of them
  265. # [03:34] <heycam> Hixie, and you mention that in the calling algorithm
  266. # [03:35] <heycam> ?
  267. # [03:35] <zewt> Hixie: having trouble finding an algorithm that does that--anything off-hand to search for?
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  269. # [03:35] <Hixie> heycam: i wouldn't guarantee it
  270. # [03:36] <Hixie> zewt: try looking for "abort the"
  271. # [03:37] <zewt> ah here's one, in structured clone
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  273. # [03:38] <zewt> (for exceptions from user code rather than an algorithm, but close enough)
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  277. # [03:40] <heycam> sounds like maybe I should do it then
  278. # [03:40] <heycam> zewt, if you're on the list would you mind mailing public-script-coord requesting it?
  279. # [03:40] <zewt> i'm not on that one
  280. # [03:43] <heycam> ok nm i'll just note it locally
  281. # [03:43] <zewt> how big is the difference between [Callback] interface and a dictionary? (have to weigh how much time to spend in convincing people to make changes, heh)
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  284. # [03:44] <zewt> webgl has "[Callback] interface WebGLContextAttributes", where similar stuff with event constructors has a dictionary for the data passed from the user and an interface for the resulting class
  285. # [03:44] <heycam> zewt, if it's just for taking in an argument to a function, then not that different. dictionary members can be "not present" though, which might be useful.
  286. # [03:44] <heycam> and you can specify default values in the idl
  287. # [03:44] <zewt> webgl definitely intends for arguments to be omitted
  288. # [03:45] <heycam> with hard coded defaults?
  289. # [03:45] <zewt> they specify the defaults in prose
  290. # [03:45] <heycam> but yeah if some can be omitted and the defaults aren't just the result of converting undefined to the right type, you'll need to use a dictionary
  291. # [03:46] <heycam> i think that's not valid then, you can't say what happens if there's no property for [Callback] objects
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  293. # [03:47] <zewt> if the properties were nullable (which they're not, but putting that aside) i'd have guessed that the properties would read as null
  294. # [03:47] <heycam> yes
  295. # [03:47] <zewt> though i don't think they want those to be nullable anyway, so it'd want to be a separate type anyway
  296. # [03:48] <zewt> i like programming better; if i don't know how something works, I just try it and see what blows up
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  298. # [03:49] <heycam> this is more like try something, wait a few months and see if i blow up
  299. # [03:50] <zewt> heh
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  301. # [03:50] <zewt> thanks to both; will think about it some more
  302. # [03:50] <heycam> kcool
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  305. # [04:01] <zewt> erg, another thing is that this is part of a sub-algorithm itself (the context creation called by getContext in step 6)
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  307. # [04:01] <zewt> getContext itself is not defined as throwing an exception in that step
  308. # [04:02] <zewt> (@ hixie)
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  310. # [04:09] <zewt> heycam: so, "Convert" would ref http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-dictionary ?
  311. # [04:12] <heycam> zewt, yes
  312. # [04:13] <heycam> or http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-convert-ecmascript-to-idl-value
  313. # [04:13] <heycam> the latter is where all "convert"s within the spec link to actually
  314. # [04:14] <heycam> either would be fine
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  317. # [04:15] <Hixie> zewt: file bugs (using the widget thing)
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  319. # [04:21] <zewt> ok
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  433. # [08:32] <hsivonen> aargh. MTWF FAIL: http://paulirish.com/2011/moving-the-web-forward/#comment-96808
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  472. # [10:10] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15095 - how do you check the origin of a worker?
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  478. # [10:13] <zcorpan> event.origin
  479. # [10:14] <hsivonen> writing character encoding related UI strings is hard
  480. # [10:14] <hsivonen> particularly for a browser
  481. # [10:15] <hsivonen> where for perf reasons you don't want to check if the page actually contains non-ASCII
  482. # [10:15] <hsivonen> and where you can't be sure whether the page author or a user ends up reading the UI string
  483. # [10:17] <zcorpan> i guess xhr/websocket/eventsource can expose the origin in a worker, too
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  553. # [13:49] <codeho> blergh.. this new mouse lock api is going to be hell
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  562. # [14:11] <hsivonen> codeho: in what way?
  563. # [14:11] <codeho> i fear its gonna be abused
  564. # [14:12] <codeho> ad-blocks that trap your mouse
  565. # [14:12] <codeho> whole pages that trap your mouse
  566. # [14:12] <codeho> ect..
  567. # [14:12] <hsivonen> codeho: aren't there safeguards against that?
  568. # [14:14] <codeho> in the current spec i don't see any
  569. # [14:15] <codeho> it'll need the same approach as for pop-ups
  570. # [14:15] <jgraham> No one is going to implement it without safeguards
  571. # [14:15] <codeho> fullscreen and geoloc
  572. # [14:15] <jgraham> irre3spective of what the spec says
  573. # [14:15] <jgraham> I'm also rather sure this has been discussed
  574. # [14:15] <codeho> ost likely
  575. # [14:15] <codeho> +m
  576. # [14:17] <codeho> current chromium only allows it in fullscreen mode
  577. # [14:17] <codeho> thats good :)
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  584. # [14:27] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/#!/MattWilcox/status/144765119203774464
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  593. # [14:41] <smaug____> codeho: I think also Firefox implementation allows it only in fullscreen mode
  594. # [14:42] <smaug____> (I'm more worried about misusing fullscreen mode, since it doesn't require any permission )
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  596. # [14:50] <smaug____> codeho: if you're testing mouse lock, feel free to test FF builds http://vocamus.net/dave/?p=1388
  597. # [14:51] <codeho> smaug____: thanks! currently i'm just interested in the code, looking' at your repo if thats ok :)
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  600. # [14:55] <smaug____> codeho: not my code :)
  601. # [14:55] <codeho> i know
  602. # [14:55] <codeho> :)
  603. # [14:56] <codeho> (now) :)
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  609. # [15:16] <smaug____> does webkit support event ctors for other than Event and CustomEvent
  610. # [15:16] * smaug____ has never understood why DOM4 has CustomEvent
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  613. # [15:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: hmm. now it's non-trivial to find the partial Document interface (previously HTMLDocument) by following xrefs
  614. # [15:23] * zcorpan filed a bug
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  624. # [15:44] <bga> http://funkyimg.com/u2/1081/563/9373757.png
  625. # [15:44] <bga> mozilla^
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  627. # [15:46] <hsivonen> bga: looks like Content-Disposition in action
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  629. # [15:46] <hsivonen> bga: and the user having set Opera as the default app for .xhtml
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  631. # [15:47] <bga> m
  632. # [15:47] <bga> only opera open this url
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  636. # [15:48] <bga> stupid browsers
  637. # [15:51] <bga> anyway this svg demo does not work even in FF
  638. # [15:51] <bga> ah
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  640. # [15:52] <bga> saving, rename to .xhtml and now work
  641. # [15:53] <bga> works only FF heh
  642. # [15:53] <bga> * +in
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  662. # [16:31] <bfrohs> Is it allowed to specify multiply [type] values for a form <input>? Or is there a less specific date value that allows for choosing a month or a day? Usage: Published Date for book. Publishers sometimes only specify a month (esp. if it's released on multiple days in different areas of the world), but allow for a specific day (e.g. released same day across timezones)
  663. # [16:32] <zcorpan> use two inputs
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  668. # [16:35] <bfrohs> If you mean a Month and Date input, that has the downside of requiring a script to check for validation (having required on both would lock the form), as well as possible user confusion when selecting a date (when multiple fields are present, people want to fill both out, even if they're for the same thing)
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  670. # [16:35] <bfrohs> The other possibility is using [pattern], but that removes the date picker
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  672. # [16:37] <zcorpan> what UI do you want? a date picker that can select either a month or a date?
  673. # [16:38] <bfrohs> Yes, that would be great. Even if it could choose a year as well (date, with every part excluding year optional). And requiring the month could be taken care of with [pattern] (however, without a 'date-optional' [type], this is not possible without a script)
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  675. # [16:39] <zcorpan> i guess you should list the use cases for such a thing in a bug
  676. # [16:39] <bfrohs> Where would be the best place to submit it?
  677. # [16:40] <zcorpan> the comment form in the spec files a bug
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  679. # [16:40] <zcorpan> you need an account on w3c bugzilla if you want to comment on the bug further
  680. # [16:40] <zcorpan> alternatively, send an email to whatwg@whatwg.org (need to subscribe)
  681. # [16:42] <bfrohs> Thank ya
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  697. # [17:16] <smaug____> does anyone know which all event ctors webkit supports
  698. # [17:16] <smaug____> I haven't manage to install any latest webkit builds to this machine, so I can't test
  699. # [17:16] <smaug____> though, I think only Event and CustomEvent has ctor mentioned in any spec
  700. # [17:19] <zewt> webgl has one, which I doubt is implemented anywhere yet
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  702. # [17:20] <zewt> there was a thread about using it with indexeddb months ago, but I guess that hasn't happened yet
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  704. # [17:21] <zewt> and other noise about updating dom3 events, which I guess also hasn't happened
  705. # [17:22] <zewt> is webgl really the only spec outside of dom4 itself using it yet? heh
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  709. # [17:38] <annevk5> smaug____: they implemented most I think
  710. # [17:38] <annevk5> smaug____: I mean for most event interfaces they have
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  712. # [17:38] <annevk5> smaug____: and then filed bugs on the specs
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  714. # [17:38] <annevk5> smaug____: the HTML spec has event constructors defined for all its event interfaces
  715. # [17:38] <smaug____> well, one needs to know the order of stuff in the dictionaries
  716. # [17:39] <smaug____> ah
  717. # [17:39] * smaug____ looks at HTML spec
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  723. # [17:46] <SIDKID87> Question surrounding the MetaExtensions. When I include these (i.e. HandheldFriendly) in my HTML document I get validation errors. How do I avoid this?
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  727. # [17:51] <karlcow> <annevk> my b is that I sort of feel that long term bandwidth will be less of an issue and everything will be 300ppi
  728. # [17:51] <karlcow> maybe the issue is slightly different for the b case
  729. # [17:52] <karlcow> it's not that much the absolute bandwidth of cell networks
  730. # [17:52] <karlcow> but the different between cables and wireless networks.
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  732. # [17:52] <karlcow> if wireless gets higher speed, but cables go on a trend of super high speed
  733. # [17:52] <annevk5> smaug____: the order should not be important...
  734. # [17:52] <karlcow> there will still be the issue
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  736. # [17:53] <annevk5> karlcow: not if you not go beyond 300ppi
  737. # [17:53] <karlcow> annevk5: bigger size images :) if people can 10Mb they will, no?
  738. # [17:53] <annevk5> karlcow: or do you expect us to transmit raw camera images from a Canon 1D or some such?
  739. # [17:53] <karlcow> * can use
  740. # [17:54] <karlcow> annevk5: people will
  741. # [17:54] <jgraham> (1D images are way bigger than that)
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  744. # [17:54] <jgraham> (at least my 7D images are like 20Mb each and I guess the 1D is even bigger)
  745. # [17:55] <annevk5> karlcow: maybe reasonable, unless cables to home go away entirely
  746. # [17:55] <karlcow> so basically the speed difference in between different type of user experiences/networks.
  747. # [17:55] <annevk5> is a compressed JPEG for 300ppi much much larger than one for 150ppi today?
  748. # [17:55] <smaug____> annevk5: order is important
  749. # [17:55] <smaug____> because of getters
  750. # [17:56] <annevk5> smaug____: ah right
  751. # [17:56] <annevk5> smaug____: hopefully the dictionaries are interface order
  752. # [17:56] <annevk5> I wonder if Web IDL makes that crystal clear to everyone
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  754. # [17:57] <smaug____> IIRC it does
  755. # [17:58] <smaug____> but I need to re-review
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  757. # [17:59] <SIDKID87> <meta name="HandheldFriendly" content="True"> breaks validation, what's up with that?
  758. # [17:59] <karlcow> annevk5: already the case for some regions of the world. Or more exactly the cable was never the main delivery channel
  759. # [17:59] <karlcow> "Most people on #Internet in #Africa access thru mobile web - 85m of 110m web users - #IsisNyong'o of #InMobi at #ConvergenceAfrica #Nairobi" — http://twitter.com/tamihultman/status/144757444575375361
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  761. # [18:00] <annevk5> SIDKID87: per http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions it's only a proposal and might not be implemented yet in the validator
  762. # [18:00] <annevk5> karlcow: I know
  763. # [18:01] <annevk5> karlcow: and there's claims of 80mbit mobile, which is pretty close to the 120mbit I get at home
  764. # [18:01] <annevk5> (via cable)
  765. # [18:01] <annevk5> and everyone hates cables
  766. # [18:02] <jgraham> It is not really clear if you will get that in rural areas though
  767. # [18:02] <jgraham> The range will be very short
  768. # [18:02] <jgraham> Still, maybe it will happen eventually
  769. # [18:02] <SIDKID87> annevk5: Thanks - that makes sense. :)
  770. # [18:02] * karlcow doesn't hate cables, but that is another topic :)
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  772. # [18:03] <jgraham> In any case being able to select on screen size can be good even if both images are the same number of pixels
  773. # [18:03] <jgraham> But speculative prefetching with <picture> or similar solutions could be interesting
  774. # [18:03] * jgraham wonders what happens with <video> roday
  775. # [18:03] <jgraham> *today
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  784. # [18:15] <zewt> heh, i've sort of wondered about tighter integration with progressive JPEGs and resource fetching, though I'm certain it'll never happen (and not sure it would work well anyway)
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  787. # [18:16] <zewt> for example, if you have a 300 DPI, 3-pass interlaced JPEG and you're on a much lower-resolution display, request just the first two passes from the server
  788. # [18:17] <zewt> then you have a single file with no waste serving multiple resource sizes (but of course the server-side complexity is way too high)
  789. # [18:18] <karlcow> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/NodeTree
  790. # [18:19] <zewt> well, I suppose all you *really* need is an index file ("1 pass: 10000 bytes; 2 passes: 30000 bytes; 3 passes: 100000 bytes"), then the client can use Content-Range (still too complex)
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  794. # [18:21] <zewt> annevk5: another thing to consider: no matter how much bandwidth you have, waste on mobile costs
  795. # [18:22] <zewt> downloading 10x the amount of data and then decoding a much larger file will *always* mean, at the least, more battery use
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  798. # [18:27] <karlcow> was trying to find more information about nodetree not quite ready yet http://arcriley.blogspot.com/2011/12/nodetree-02-released.html
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  800. # [18:30] <annevk5> zewt: so far though the images that use more bandwidth make the most sense on phones
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  802. # [18:31] <annevk5> there's no desktop nearing 300ppi yet in wide use
  803. # [18:31] <ZXY> is there any at all?
  804. # [18:31] <ZXY> consumer/pro grade
  805. # [18:31] <annevk5> I thought IBM had made something at one point
  806. # [18:31] <annevk5> well some company
  807. # [18:32] <ZXY> that's not really ibm's thing
  808. # [18:32] <ZXY> they really don't make any consumer products anymore
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  818. # [18:41] <smaug____> I hope my event ctor implementation is somewhat compatible what chromium has
  819. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: Ask about it in #webkit
  820. # [18:44] <smaug____> I'd rather test
  821. # [18:44] <smaug____> but I have no idea where to get "nightly" chromium
  822. # [18:44] <smaug____> even the dev version doesn't seem to run on this machine
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  824. # [18:44] <smaug____> s/run/install/
  825. # [18:44] <zewt> chrome's prerelease stuff is a big pain, because (last I tried it) it doesn't let you install them side-by-side
  826. # [18:44] <zewt> and it took a bit of digging to figure out how to go *back* to production when I was done
  827. # [18:45] <zewt> (iirc, going to prerelease builds was one click, going back not so much)
  828. # [18:45] <smaug____> but, I declare my implementation correct and if webkit does something else, I'll file webkit bugs :p
  829. # [18:45] <zewt> cage match
  830. # [18:47] <zewt> i suppose it's the usual neverending question: "do tests exist yet" :P
  831. # [18:47] <jgraham> Why would anyone ever run a production browser?
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  833. # [18:48] <zewt> why would anyone ever run a prerelease browser, when everything we do these days depend son it :)
  834. # [18:48] <annevk5> ZXY: I thought "pro" was acceptable too
  835. # [18:48] <annevk5> ZXY: I was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors
  836. # [18:49] <ZXY> ah nice
  837. # [18:49] <annevk5> ZXY: still only 200ppi though
  838. # [18:49] <ZXY> I meant to say prosumer actually
  839. # [18:49] <ZXY> but this is really cool
  840. # [18:51] <zewt> then go for it http://www.ebay.com/itm/290642425026
  841. # [18:51] <jgraham> Well people have been talking about 200ppi monitors for years. It shows no sign of going mainstream though
  842. # [18:51] <zewt> heh 48hz, ouch
  843. # [18:52] <ZXY> they go for like 2-4 k it looks like
  844. # [18:52] <zewt> and I'm sure it's really poor by other modern standards (ghosting, view angle, color accuracy, black level, etc)
  845. # [18:52] <ZXY> plus I think you'd need two dvi connections
  846. # [18:53] <ZXY> everyone knows it's just for cramming more irc windows on your screen
  847. # [18:53] <zewt> i just maximize irc on my side monitor, heh
  848. # [18:54] <jgraham> Anyway if anyone is claiming that we don't need something because this tech will be ubiquitous RSN, I will take it with an ocean full of salt
  849. # [18:57] * smaug____ uses http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/dom4events/
  850. # [18:58] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  853. # [19:00] <smaug____> Ms2ger: what is the expected behavior for bubbles: get () { throw foo } ? :)
  854. # [19:00] <annevk5> jgraham: after iPad3, I expect my laptop to get a similar treatment
  855. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> I was hoping you'd figure that out ;)
  856. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Let me check
  857. # [19:01] <smaug____> Ms2ger: currently the patch does what the spec say (no exceptions)
  858. # [19:01] <smaug____> I mean DOM4 spec
  859. # [19:01] <smaug____> WebIDL may hint something else
  860. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> Hrm, WebIDL doesn't seem clear
  861. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> "None of the algorithms or processing requirements in the ECMAScript language binding catch ECMAScript exceptions. Whenever an ECMAScript Function is invoked due to requirements in this section and that Function ends due to an exception being thrown, that exception MUST propagate to the caller, and if not caught there, to its caller, and so on."
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  864. # [19:04] <smaug____> aha, so exception should propagate
  865. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> Sounds like it
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  868. # [19:07] <jgraham> annevk5: I would wait and see about that. Making that kind of screen that size is going to be hugely expensive (due to low yield). I wouldn't expect it in laptops overnight or on desktops for even longer
  869. # [19:08] <annevk5> there's not much else I can do
  870. # [19:08] <annevk5> but if they put that kind of screen on a MacBook Air, yield is going to be high
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  872. # [19:09] <smaug____> Ms2ger: thanks, fixed
  873. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> Thank you!
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  878. # [19:15] <zewt> i wouldn't expect high dpi desktop/laptop monitors, because there isn't, as far as i know, much demand
  879. # [19:15] <zewt> you need a high dpi display for a phone because the screen's small, but for the vast majority of people (short of perhaps artists, print editors, that narrow category of users), 1920x1200 @ 24" is plenty
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  882. # [19:17] * TobiX wants to get rid of sub-pixel-AA, because it's ugly for people with good eyes...
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  884. # [19:18] <zewt> having an lcd with the text quality of eink would be great, but I wouldn't put my money on it...
  885. # [19:21] <karlcow> hmmm transparent HTTP negotiation
  886. # [19:21] <karlcow> maybe time to implement it after all
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  888. # [19:22] <karlcow> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2295
  889. # [19:23] <zewt> ew
  890. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Ew at ietf.org?
  891. # [19:23] <annevk5> oh right
  892. # [19:23] <annevk5> I should fix /complete/
  893. # [19:23] <zewt> if the idea is picking different image sizes at the HTTP level
  894. # [19:24] <TabAtkins_> zewt, smaug____: You can install Chrome Canary side-by-side with normal Chrome.
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  896. # [19:27] <karlcow> zewt: the RFC is need. it disclose the choices. I will write about it. It certainly needs reediting because it is an old spec.
  897. # [19:27] <karlcow> but it is a spec which solves also a lot of issues
  898. # [19:27] <zewt> karlcow: maybe it has its uses (only skimmed the intro)--just "ew" if you were suggesting its use for the "responsive images" discussion
  899. # [19:27] <karlcow> for SEO, search engines in multi-lingual contexts
  900. # [19:27] <smaug____> TabAtkins_: where do I get Canary for linux?
  901. # [19:28] <smaug____> and actually, installing even dev failed for some reason
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  903. # [19:30] <zewt> tab: looks like that's new since i looked at it last; looks like beta and dev still replace stable
  904. # [19:31] <zewt> new Event(1) should throw TypeError, right?
  905. # [19:32] <annevk5> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html is a 404 now but I think it should return some kind of document Philip` made at one point, no?
  906. # [19:32] <zewt> (doesn't in Chrome)
  907. # [19:32] <annevk5> zewt: no
  908. # [19:32] <annevk5> zewt: first argument is a string
  909. # [19:32] <zewt> eh yeah
  910. # [19:32] <zewt> new Event("", 1) then :)
  911. # [19:32] <zewt> (same)
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  913. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> Yes
  914. # [19:34] <Philip`> annevk5: It should return a 404 with a script that redirects to whatever page has #video
  915. # [19:34] <TobiX> Hmm. I was wondering. GreaseMonkey added a finalUrl attribute to XMLHttpRequest responses. Would this be useful for regular XHR beside my narrow use case?
  916. # [19:36] <zewt> heh, two spams in two days leaking to the list
  917. # [19:36] <zewt> (don't really care, just unusual)
  918. # [19:38] <Hixie> annevk5: try regenning again, it should be fixed
  919. # [19:38] <Hixie> annevk5: the .htaccess file was still pointing at the complete/ 404
  920. # [19:38] <Hixie> annevk5: so it got a 301 while trying to serve the 404
  921. # [19:39] <TobiX> zewt: There is http://crportable.sourceforge.net/ for following dev-builds...
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  923. # [19:39] <annevk5> Hixie: it's perfect now
  924. # [19:40] <annevk5> Hixie: it also deletes all files each time around so this problem should be gone in theory
  925. # [19:40] <Hixie> annevk5: cool
  926. # [19:42] <annevk5> hsivonen: just saw your "json" patch got landed, sweet
  927. # [19:43] <annevk5> hsivonen: we have implemented spec-compliant responseType "json" too
  928. # [19:43] <annevk5> hsivonen: in the next version we release
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  931. # [19:47] <karlcow> zewt: what I meant with the RFC 2295 http://my.opera.com/karlcow/blog/2011/12/08/responsive-images-and-transparent-content-negotiation-in-http
  932. # [19:49] <zewt> it requires a blocking round-trip? that'll hurt responsiveness a lot in and of itself...
  933. # [19:50] <zewt> (2g is nothing if not latent)
  934. # [19:50] <karlcow> zewt
  935. # [19:51] <karlcow> not necessary
  936. # [19:51] <karlcow> but it could
  937. # [19:51] <karlcow> it depends on how you handle it.
  938. # [19:53] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: search for "chrome canary", or just go to http://tools.google.com/dlpage/chromesxs
  939. # [19:53] <TabAtkins_> zewt: Yes, beta and dev still replace stable; they don't easily coexist.
  940. # [19:55] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: I forget exactly how up-to-date Canary is. I think it's a daily build off of the last green configuration.
  941. # [19:56] <zewt> annevk5: i wonder if the event ctor "for each dictionary member..." should be a separate, referencable algorithm, if this pattern is likely to happen more and more
  942. # [19:56] <zewt> (converting a webidl dictionary parameter to an interface)
  943. # [19:56] <smaug____> TabAtkins that page gives "Your operating system is not supported. "
  944. # [19:56] <zewt> (suggesting the same text for some webgl stuff)
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  947. # [19:58] <zewt> heycam: ^ more for you I guess, since I suppose it'd go in webidl rather than dom4
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  952. # [20:18] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: It's possible that Canary is only for windows.
  953. # [20:18] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: In that case, build from the tree yourself?
  954. # [20:19] <TabAtkins_> It's not overly difficult if you follow the Chromium instructions.
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  956. # [20:19] <smaug____> TabAtkins: my machine is busy enough compiling Gecko
  957. # [20:19] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-71.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  958. # [20:20] <annevk5> zewt: file a bug on Web IDL?
  959. # [20:20] <annevk5> zewt: might be a nice construct to have if it turns out to be shorter and clearer
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  962. # [20:21] <TobiX> smaug____: http://build.chromium.org/f/chromium/snapshots/
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  965. # [20:27] <smaug____> annevk5: shouldn't nullable DOMStrings have '?'
  966. # [20:28] <smaug____> or Ms2ger
  967. # [20:28] * smaug____ is lazy to verify from WebIDL
  968. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  969. # [20:29] <smaug____> k
  970. # [20:29] * smaug____ should file a spec bug
  971. # [20:32] <annevk5> back tomorrow most likely
  972. # [20:32] * Ms2ger waves
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  991. # [21:22] <zewt> "Web Storage is now a Candidate Recommendation and as such, a Call for Implementations was made [CfI]" ... really?
  992. # [21:22] <zewt> sometimes The Process(tm) is just comic
  993. # [21:25] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  998. # [21:44] <karlcow> zewt: note that it was not mandatory
  999. # [21:44] <karlcow> I don't know why people still think it is mandatory per se
  1000. # [21:48] <karlcow> "Call for Implementations. Note: The Director MAY permit the Working Group to skip this step if the entrance criteria for the next step have already been satisfied." — http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#rec-advance
  1001. # [21:48] <karlcow> the steps in the process are entrance criterias
  1002. # [21:48] <karlcow> if you demonstrate that you met all the requirements for the targeted step
  1003. # [21:48] <zewt> just force of habit? heh
  1004. # [21:48] <karlcow> you are fine.
  1005. # [21:49] <karlcow> zewt: yes!
  1006. # [21:49] <karlcow> it's not the process which is comics
  1007. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> Well, we don't have tests, of course
  1008. # [21:49] <karlcow> it is the people using the process ;)
  1009. # [21:49] <zewt> karlcow: well, i feel more comfortable making fun of the process on irc than particular individuals :)
  1010. # [21:49] <karlcow> The process is just a tool.
  1011. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> Art can handle it :)
  1012. # [21:49] <karlcow> hehe
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  1014. # [21:51] <karlcow> but as a group it is perfectly reasonable that people develop tests and produce an interop report which shows that everything is implemented reasonably according to the group.
  1015. # [21:51] <karlcow> and then move on
  1016. # [21:51] <karlcow> and this can be done BEFORE entering CR
  1017. # [21:51] <karlcow> :)
  1018. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> Sure
  1019. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> It is perfectly reasonable for people to write tests
  1020. # [21:51] <karlcow> heh
  1021. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> They just happen not to
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  1023. # [21:52] * KillerX_ is now known as KillerX
  1024. # [21:54] <karlcow> Ms2ger: hehe… I. know. that. :) I spent 5 years on trying to convince groups that it was good to prove interops. There is a huge leap compared to what was done before pre-2000. We are still not there yet.
  1025. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> We're convinced
  1026. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> And lazy
  1027. # [21:54] <karlcow> lazy is the definition of a good developer. no? :)
  1028. # [21:54] <jgraham> The process is a tool, or the people are tools? :p
  1029. # [21:55] <zewt> Ms2ger: i wish we had a webapp for writing tests for webapp apis :P
  1030. # [21:55] <jgraham> Surely iPhone has an app for that?
  1031. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> Just Android
  1032. # [21:55] <karlcow> jgraham: it depends on the circumstances and the quantity of alcohool you drunk before and how many clothes… [redacted]
  1033. # [21:55] <zewt> there would be some irony in that
  1034. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> Standards and iPhone? You must be kidding
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  1037. # [21:57] <zewt> Ms2ger: sure, it works like this: "we'll do what we want. then you guys can make a standard out of it"
  1038. # [21:57] <jgraham> In other news http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhkxDIr0y2U is very very odd. As one would expect.
  1039. # [21:58] <jgraham> karlcow: Redacting people's clothes?
  1040. # [21:58] <karlcow> where's the emperor
  1041. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> Hixie's over there
  1042. # [22:02] <karlcow> is he naked
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  1046. # [22:08] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/community/autowebtest/
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  1048. # [22:08] <karlcow> the group has been created
  1049. # [22:11] <zewt> does everything take a community group now? heh
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  1051. # [22:19] <karlcow> zewt: yup it seems. At least people create groups, but it doesn't mean they are active. Some do, some have a flat ECG
  1052. # [22:20] <zewt> karlcow: smells like the usual "i want this to happen but can't/won't do it myself, so i'll create a [forum|mailing list|sourceforge project] and hope somebody will do it for me"
  1053. # [22:20] <zewt> aka, noise
  1054. # [22:20] <karlcow> yup… silent freedom
  1055. # [22:21] <zewt> in this case, i think if someone wanted to create a webapp like this, they'd just ... do it, and mailing lists and CGs and whatever would come after there's something to show
  1056. # [22:22] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  1057. # [22:22] <zewt> (it's not like something that needs buy-in from vendors or anything like that)
  1058. # [22:22] <karlcow> the Test automation thing has been started, if I understood correctly, to have a more formal TestAutomation API based on http://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol
  1059. # [22:23] <karlcow> which is now implemented for most browsers
  1060. # [22:23] <karlcow> with at least two officially supported driver Chrome and Opera
  1061. # [22:24] <zewt> that's a bit more low-level, yeah that would need UA work
  1062. # [22:24] <jgraham> There is already a WG for that
  1063. # [22:24] <jgraham> There is a WG to standardise webdriver
  1064. # [22:25] <jgraham> and an IG for other testing concerns
  1065. # [22:25] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  1066. # [22:25] <jgraham> Adding a CG isn't obviously helpful unless it supercedes one of the other groups
  1067. # [22:25] <jgraham> (and I don't see why it would in this case)
  1068. # [22:26] <karlcow> ah jgraham I might have mixed the two, my bad.
  1069. # [22:26] <zewt> a page where I could just enter some code, have the code run in a bunch of browsers running in VMs somewhere, and have the results spat back at me would be cool
  1070. # [22:26] <karlcow> crossing information with space-time warps and emperor's clothes
  1071. # [22:26] <zewt> perhaps with the results being flaggable if they come back inconsistent
  1072. # [22:26] <karlcow> long week^W year
  1073. # [22:27] <zewt> now i want to hack something like this together
  1074. # [22:29] * karlcow sees http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/
  1075. # [22:29] <karlcow> and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2011OctDec/0031.html
  1076. # [22:29] <karlcow> and http://www.w3.org/2011/08/browser-testing-charter.html
  1077. # [22:30] <jgraham> Yeah. Mike is also going to use it to standardise the console object
  1078. # [22:30] <zewt> eg. let me type in "new Event("", "dogs");</script>", and show the various results (throws "not a constructor" vs. throws TypeError vs. returns an Event) in lots of browsers and browser versions
  1079. # [22:31] <zewt> s-</script>--
  1080. # [22:31] <jgraham> zewt: Like the live dom viewer but distributed
  1081. # [22:31] <zewt> right
  1082. # [22:31] <jgraham> That sounds nice to use and nighmarish to run
  1083. # [22:31] <zewt> combined with being able to save lists of cases, to auto-construct test tables, etc
  1084. # [22:32] <zewt> yeah, integrating with vms running test browsers would be the annoying part
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  1086. # [22:32] <zewt> especially when some jerk tries while(1);
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  1092. # [22:37] <zewt> similarly useful would be rendering HTML in each and returning screenshots and DOM trees
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  1096. # [22:40] <jgraham> There are services that will do screenshots. I guess you could send them a live dom viewer URL
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  1103. # [22:54] <heycam> annevk5, yes dictionary members are required to be got from the js object in the order they appear on the dictionary
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  1126. # [23:46] <jamesr> Hixie: yt?
  1127. # [23:46] <Hixie> here
  1128. # [23:46] <jamesr> Hixie: potentially dumb question. in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/timers.html#list-of-active-timeouts , what removes timer that have fired from the 'list of active timeouts'?
  1129. # [23:47] <jamesr> i would expect step 1 of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/timers.html#get-the-timed-task to do it
  1130. # [23:47] <jamesr> or possibly step 10 of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/timers.html#list-of-active-timeouts
  1131. # [23:47] <jamesr> but i don't see it
  1132. # [23:47] <jamesr> (my real motive here is to figure out how to spec similar behavior in the RAF spec)
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  1134. # [23:48] <Hixie> um
  1135. # [23:49] <Hixie> it would appear that not only is the task never removed from the list of active timeouts
  1136. # [23:49] <Hixie> but that the task's presence on the list of active timeouts has no effect
  1137. # [23:49] <Hixie> that's embarassing
  1138. # [23:49] <jamesr> it's used for lookups in cleartimeout()
  1139. # [23:49] <jamesr> if nothing matching that ID is in the list of active timeouts, clearTimeout() does nothing
  1140. # [23:49] <jamesr> ok i guess i won't cargo cult this particular mechanism :)
  1141. # [23:50] <Hixie> yeah, it seems clearTimeout() as specced does nothing black-box detectable
  1142. # [23:50] <Hixie> "oops"
  1143. # [23:50] <Hixie> there should be a step before step 10 that checks if the task is still in the list
  1144. # [23:50] <Hixie> and if not aborts
  1145. # [23:50] <jamesr> also, anyone know what "&#x2002;" is?
  1146. # [23:51] <Hixie> en space
  1147. # [23:51] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/unicode-decoder/character-identifier?keywords=2002
  1148. # [23:51] <Hixie> i'll file a bug on the timeout thing
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  1151. # [23:52] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15120
  1152. # [23:53] <jamesr> fun fun
  1153. # [23:53] <jamesr> dammit, someone edited my spec to reference http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-20100624 as its HTML reference :/
  1154. # [23:53] <Hixie> edit it back
  1155. # [23:54] <Hixie> and put a comment next to it saying not to edit your spec without speaking to you
  1156. # [23:54] * Hixie has a number of such comments in his specs
  1157. # [23:54] <Hixie> for similar reasons
  1158. # Session Close: Fri Dec 09 00:00:00 2011

The end :)