/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 14 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> That was gsnedders, but OK.
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  10. # [00:07] <wiz-dumb> Hello! Are there any developers from the html5lib project around?
  11. # [00:08] <jgraham> Yes, but I soon won't be
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  13. # [00:08] <jgraham> (but please go ahead)
  14. # [00:08] <wiz-dumb> Just wanted to see if I could get a status check on an open issue regarding test/ directory missing from the 0.90 release
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  16. # [00:09] <wiz-dumb> https://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=134#c2
  17. # [00:09] <jgraham> The status is that we need to make a new release
  18. # [00:09] <wiz-dumb> Trying to upgrade the version we have at the office to .90, but this is blocking
  19. # [00:09] <jgraham> but have utterly failed to do that
  20. # [00:10] <wiz-dumb> Ok, would it be possible to have the .90 release .zip updated to simply include the tests which existed when it was packaged?
  21. # [00:10] <jgraham> OK. Well I have to sleep now but if you are blocking on this that provides some motivation to actually get a new release together
  22. # [00:11] <wiz-dumb> ok. I added myself to the issue with the same comment. I look forward to an update. Good night!
  23. # [00:11] <jgraham> I don't want to spend time on that. But it is all in hg so you can get the tests yourself if you need them. That doesn't work so well if you depend on PyPI ofc
  24. # [00:13] <wiz-dumb> Ok, thanks for the help
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  34. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> http://ariya.ofilabs.com/2011/12/introducing-esprima.html
  35. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> bravo Ariya
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  37. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> http://www.esprima.org/demo/parse.html
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  40. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: That's pretty cool!
  41. # [00:26] <MikeSmith> yeah
  42. # [00:27] <MikeSmith> Ariya's a mad scientist
  43. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> incidentally, I didn't know about the Mozilla parser API
  44. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> but looking at that, it's pretty cool too
  45. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/SpiderMonkey/Parser_API
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  64. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I'm not sure what you find hard to understand about the appcache use-case in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14702
  65. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> The desired behavior is basically:
  66. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> (1) If you're online, proceed as normal. Fetch everything from online or the HTTP cache as appropriate, and update appcached resources as appropriate.
  67. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> (2) If you're offline, use the appcache.
  68. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> And that's it.
  69. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> This is desirable over http caching because (1) http cache doesn't reliably work offline, and (2) http cache entries can disappear non-atomically, creating a broken app.
  70. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Whereas the appcache for a site expires all at once, so it's easy to tell why the page is "broken", since it doesn't work offline at all.
  71. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> You even allude to precisely the benefit being sought ("other than making the file available offline") in comment #24, but don't seem to understand that's all that's desired.
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  75. # [01:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: everyone i've spoken to about this says "it's easy, the desired behaviour is just X" with a different value of X each time :-P
  76. # [01:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what i don't understand about the description you just gave, though, is why people so desperately want to avoid restructuring their page to separate their data from their structure
  77. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Because it's a *very significant* restructuring.
  78. # [01:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sure, it's not cheap to do, but it has such radical benefits that i don't understand the reluctance
  79. # [01:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's nowhere near as hard as people seem to make out
  80. # [01:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you can even do it incrementally, where initially your "data" is just the whole page which you innerHTML in
  81. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> And it's not all rainbows and sunshine. Sending an empty <body> and filling it with script is bad for spiders and accessibility generally.
  82. # [01:38] <Hixie> i don't see why it's bad for a11y
  83. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> I don't know what the effects of filling in the body from script are to common a11y tools.
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  93. # [01:56] <heycam> Hixie, apart from onerror, do all of the remaining event listener attributes only ever get called with a single Event object?
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  95. # [01:57] <Hixie> i believe so
  96. # [01:57] <Hixie> but wouldn't be willing to stake money on it
  97. # [01:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cvs lock issue
  98. # [01:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: nevermind
  99. # [01:57] <heycam> Hixie, ok thanks
  100. # [01:57] <Hixie> bbiab
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  102. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ok, but if the lock problem happens again lemme know
  103. # [01:57] <Hixie> roger
  104. # [01:58] <zewt> cvsin' like it's 1995
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  108. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> anybody round here on the Google+ dev team?
  109. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> I could use help with something...
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  113. # [02:05] <divya> MikeSmith: on twitter @codedread is there.
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  182. # Session Close: Wed Dec 14 06:12:22 2011
  183. #
  184. # Session Start: Wed Dec 14 06:12:22 2011
  185. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  189. # [06:41] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  190. # [06:41] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  191. # [06:41] <Hixie> in XML, <p/>x means an empty <p> with an "x" after it
  192. # [06:41] <Hixie> in HTML, <p/>x means a <p> that contains an "x" (and is invalid)
  193. # [06:43] <mikenton> :)
  194. # [06:43] <mikenton> Thank you.
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  275. # [11:00] <asmodai> Anyone happen to know Firefox/Mozilla's timeframe on the Web Audio API?
  276. # [11:03] <annevk> heycam|away: +1 for the new callback syntax
  277. # [11:03] <annevk> guess I'll email that to the list
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  281. # [11:13] <jgraham> asmodai: Do people even think that API's a good idea? Last time I looked it seemed super-complex
  282. # [11:14] <jgraham> I tought roc had an alternative suggestion which looked (to my untrained eye) much nicer
  283. # [11:16] <asmodai> jgraham: I got some gamedevs asking about when firefox will implement it.
  284. # [11:16] <asmodai> I guess the recent port of Bastion to NaCL for Chrome also helped act as a catalyst.
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  288. # [11:17] <asmodai> But let me ask them about the complexity of that API.
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  298. # [11:40] <annevk> Web IDL updates excite me
  299. # [11:40] <annevk> #weird
  300. # [11:40] <jgraham> That's one hell of a fetish you've got going there
  301. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> ^
  302. # [11:41] <annevk> I think the Encoding Standard is a weirder one
  303. # [11:44] * zcorpan doesn't want to know what annevk does together with the Encoding Standard at night
  304. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> "Think" about it
  305. # [11:44] * annevk doesn't want to tell
  306. # [11:46] <hendry> can the help list please be moderated? http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2011-December/000969.html is junk
  307. # [11:47] <annevk> email Hixie
  308. # [11:47] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-220-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  309. # [11:52] <annevk> http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/make-a-web-standards-proposal
  310. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: abarth wrote that I guess
  311. # [11:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yep
  312. # [12:00] <annevk> so single-octet encodings works
  313. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> Automated tests please? :)
  314. # [12:00] <annevk> it seems putting multi-octet encodings inline might be problematic
  315. # [12:01] <annevk> some are gigantic
  316. # [12:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: yes I should make those
  317. # [12:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: but it's fairly trivial for anyone to do so
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  319. # [12:05] <zcorpan> annevk: how gigantic?
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  323. # [12:11] <gsnedders> annevk: Nothing is as gigantic as GB18030.
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  332. # [12:32] <asmodai> jgraham: response:
  333. # [12:32] <asmodai> I found it pretty straight forward. At least for just playing a simple sound. Problem is getting same behaviour from FF and Chrme
  334. # [12:38] <jgraham> asmodai: (I like to think that getting proper cross-browser support would be the problem not just "FF and Chrome")
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  338. # [12:47] <asmodai> jgraham: IE is not interesting enough to develop on
  339. # [12:47] <asmodai> and Opera, pardon me saying it, just doesn't have the market share as target
  340. # [12:47] <asmodai> so that leaves FF and Chrome.
  341. # [12:48] <asmodai> At least, that's my interpretation on what I am seeing from these dev folks.
  342. # [12:58] <asmodai> response: Pretty much, Opera support would be nice, but not a huge
  343. # [12:58] <asmodai> issue for me right now. IE: Chrome Frame makes it works as Chrome.
  344. # [12:59] <bga> khtml!
  345. # [12:59] <asmodai> jgraham: Does that help? :)
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  347. # [13:01] <annevk> argh expenses
  348. # [13:01] <bga> asmodai btw chrome will get 70+% in 2013
  349. # [13:01] <annevk> hate hate hate
  350. # [13:01] <bga> => chrome only dev
  351. # [13:02] <asmodai> bga: market share? Time will tell how it will go.
  352. # [13:02] <asmodai> If there's one thing that the last 15 years have shown is that browsers and their market share come and go. :)
  353. # [13:02] <bga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usage_share_of_web_browsers_(December_2011,_Source_StatCounter).jpg
  354. # [13:03] <bga> extrapolate that :)
  355. # [13:04] <asmodai> Sure, and time has the uncanny effect of changing charts like that as well. :)
  356. # [13:04] <asmodai> I'll just stick to as much cross-platform as I can.
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  358. # [13:05] <asmodai> It's a bit funny. When people were IE-only devs they got called names, but when you do chrome-only it should suddenly be alright? :-P
  359. # [13:05] <bga> chrome is new IE
  360. # [13:06] <bga> tons of features
  361. # [13:06] <asmodai> That statement in and of itself is scary :)
  362. # [13:06] <bga> activex!
  363. # [13:06] <bga> aka nacl
  364. # [13:07] <jgraham> OMG! By 2020 Chrome will have 200% market share!
  365. # [13:08] <bga> 99% :)
  366. # [13:08] <bga> and 1% - lynx
  367. # [13:08] <asmodai> jgraham: Anyway, did those responses help you a bit? :)
  368. # [13:09] <jgraham> Alternative theory: linear extrapolation without regrad for the actual dynamics is bad
  369. # [13:09] <jgraham> asmodai: Well sort of. I don't kow much about the audio work
  370. # [13:09] <jgraham> I just know that the chrome API looks really complicated
  371. # [13:09] <asmodai> jgraham: Ah ok
  372. # [13:09] <asmodai> I haven't played with it yet.
  373. # [13:10] <beverloo> It's a much more declarative approach
  374. # [13:10] <asmodai> But I know many gamedevs are looking at the webbrowser for implementing more involved games than the social ones available now
  375. # [13:10] <asmodai> and also to build their tools in
  376. # [13:10] <jgraham> Possibly all that complexity is needed, but my expectation is that it's not
  377. # [13:10] <asmodai> IIRC Insomniac Games already deployed some tools to browser-only.
  378. # [13:10] <beverloo> First steps are harder than usual, as you have to get used to the concept behind the nodes
  379. # [13:10] <beverloo> but after that it's really easy to work with
  380. # [13:11] <asmodai> I was just curious if and when FF will support Web Audio API as well :)
  381. # [13:11] <beverloo> An umbrella draft was published about a week ago
  382. # [13:11] <beverloo> The Audio Working Group is still in flux about which proposal they're going to pursue
  383. # [13:12] <asmodai> So is Chrome a bit too early with their implementation?
  384. # [13:12] <beverloo> no earlier than Mozilla is
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  386. # [13:13] <Ms2ger> Which are prefixed?
  387. # [13:13] <asmodai> beverloo: Sorry, not up to date on all implementation details, so bear with me please :) Mozilla/Gecko already has it in Nightly or so?
  388. # [13:13] <beverloo> Ms2ger, yes, both are.
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  392. # [13:14] <beverloo> asmodai, Mozilla has the Audio Data API, which provides similar (though through a more imperative way) functionality
  393. # [13:14] <beverloo> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Audio_Data_API
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  395. # [13:15] <beverloo> The umbrella document is here: http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/drafts/1WD/
  396. # [13:15] <asmodai> beverloo: thanks, forwarding and adding to my own reading list
  397. # [13:19] <erlehmann> is there any abstraction for all that?
  398. # [13:19] <erlehmann> i am thinking about porting libglitch
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  417. # [14:26] <asmodai> wrt that Mozilla implementation of Audio API, I got told:
  418. # [14:26] <asmodai> Yep, I've been using the two specs. I prefer the web audio one over mozilla. Using xhr to fetch buffer seems to offer more ctrl
  419. # [14:32] * Taggnostr2_ is now known as Taggnostr
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  423. # [14:58] <hsivonen> next time Mozilla proposes an API, it needs to be named "Web [noun]"
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  426. # [15:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: if you can change Gecko for ibm864 that works for me
  427. # [15:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: our encoding guy claims that the encoding is not usable for Arabic anyway because it's in visual order rather than the way HTML works
  428. # [15:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: and therefore we don't support it and because there's no page out there using it (at least as far as we know)
  429. # [15:03] <hsivonen> annevk: Gecko has (used to have) special magic for visual Arabic and visual Hebrew
  430. # [15:03] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe the magic is just an implicit bidi override
  431. # [15:04] <hsivonen> annevk: dunno how relevant visual Arabic and visual Hebrew are on the Web today
  432. # [15:04] <annevk> I wonder why nobody ever bothered to more formally standardize the rules
  433. # [15:04] <hsivonen> s/(used to have)/(used to have?)/
  434. # [15:05] <hsivonen> annevk: support was contributed by IBM in the early days when people thought information flows from the W3C to vendors but not back
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  436. # [15:06] <annevk> fair enough
  437. # [15:06] <annevk> hopefully I can fix some of that
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  453. # [15:39] <hsivonen> it's sad that stuff like this has happened this year https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673680
  454. # [15:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Sad, but not surprising.
  455. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> And Google is to blame, once more
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  481. # [16:34] <bga> ppl want analogs of opera.collect() in other browsers to wakeup GC
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  489. # [16:42] <hsivonen> Is GB18030 the only CJK-oriented encoding that can encode all of Unicode?
  490. # [16:42] <hsivonen> can Shift_JIS encode everything?
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  494. # [16:44] <zewt> no
  495. # [16:45] <zewt> (to SJIS)
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  501. # [16:57] <abarth> annevk5, MikeSmith: i'm open to feedback on that "how to" if you think we should be doing things differently
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  533. # [17:52] <smaug____> hmm
  534. # [17:52] <smaug____> does some spec define VoidCallback ?
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  537. # [17:54] <smaug____> apparently no
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  539. # [17:54] <zewt> is that an old (removed) webidl thing?
  540. # [17:55] <smaug____> or it is in some File system API
  541. # [17:55] <smaug____> but it is buggy even there
  542. # [17:55] <smaug____> and copied to Mouse Lock
  543. # [17:55] <zewt> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-July/015239.html
  544. # [17:55] <smaug____> but MouseLock is still very buggy
  545. # [17:56] <zewt> not a fan of the fs-api spec, personally... too much an old-style listing of requirements and too few clear algorithms
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  547. # [17:56] <zewt> (not to say I don't like the features it defines; I do)
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  549. # [17:57] <smaug____> file system APi is rather bad, and not reviewed
  550. # [17:59] * smaug____ is always so positive :)
  551. # [18:00] <zewt> i really want to see the use cases it addresses implemented (being able to drag a directory to a page to let a page access native files would be *really* useful)
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  555. # [18:05] <zewt> i don't know which is worse, people who send emails in gigantic fonts, or people who completely ignore requests to reset their font
  556. # [18:06] <smaug____> zewt: or people who send html email
  557. # [18:06] <zewt> eh it's too late for that
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  559. # [18:06] <smaug____> given we're actively trying to break the web, we can try to change email handling too :)
  560. # [18:06] <zewt> raging over html mail is like raging over cookies, the world has moved on :)
  561. # [18:07] <erlehmann> zewt, send emails back using a big U+1F438 FROG FACE
  562. # [18:07] <zewt> if ever there was a valid use case for PILE OF POO
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  569. # [18:09] <erlehmann> πŸ”° π™΄πš‡π™Ώπ™΄πšπšƒ π™Ώπšπ™Ύπ™Άπšπ™°π™Όπ™Όπ™΄πšπš‚
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  571. # [18:10] <zewt> default glyph ahoy
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  584. # [18:36] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  587. # [18:38] <jhawkins> good morning dglazkov!
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  589. # [18:43] <bga> http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8493/fatfox.png
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  591. # [18:45] <rillian> looks more like pregnantfox
  592. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> Did you know Chrome has been using 64bit machines for a few years because they're way past the limit Firefox is hitting?
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  596. # [18:54] <zewt> off-hand, can anyone name an API that performs a resource fetch from a queued task, other than server-sent events? seems like there'd be a lot, but I can't find any others
  597. # [18:54] <zewt> (most fetches are started from synchronous sections, not tasks)
  598. # [18:55] <zewt> (rather, with "run the rest of this stuff asynchronously" sections)
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  603. # [18:58] <zewt> "ilhan y" with the most nonsequitur mail I've seen in a while
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  623. # [19:33] <zewt> yuck, chrome seems to reload the page when you hit enter on the address bar with a fragment id
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  625. # [19:34] <zewt> i do that a lot in FF to quickly jump back to where I started and it doesn't reload anything (which matters with the single-page HTML spec) ... i guess it's better in other cases
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  662. # [20:21] <rniwa> question: don't we want to remove SVG font support?
  663. # [20:21] <shepazu> rniwa: depends on who "we" are?
  664. # [20:21] <rniwa> shepazu: major browser vendors
  665. # [20:22] <rniwa> shepazu: I thought we are going to remove that from acid3 even
  666. # [20:22] <rniwa> annevk5: ?
  667. # [20:22] <smaug____> I thought we want to have sane spec for SVG fonts first, and then decide whether it is good for the web
  668. # [20:22] <smaug____> rniwa: acid3 doesn't test svg fonts anymore
  669. # [20:22] <rniwa> smaug____: so we want to keep SVG fonts?
  670. # [20:22] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah
  671. # [20:22] <smaug____> I didn't say we want to keep svg fonts
  672. # [20:23] <smaug____> I said there should be a sane spec
  673. # [20:23] <rniwa> smaug____: ok.
  674. # [20:23] <rniwa> smaug____: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68179
  675. # [20:23] <smaug____> spec which someone might implement
  676. # [20:23] <smaug____> but I'm sure roc has more to say about svg fonts
  677. # [20:23] <rniwa> smaug____: I'd rather not enable the feature on webkit by default if we're either removing or changing the spec radically
  678. # [20:23] <shepazu> I think SVG fonts are given short shrift, they are actually quite useful
  679. # [20:24] <rniwa> shepazu: usefulness things are good only if they're also sane
  680. # [20:24] <rniwa> for implementors
  681. # [20:25] <rniwa> e.g. deadlock free operating system is useful but nobody wants to implement that.
  682. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> I read "deadlocking the operating system is useful"
  683. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> And was rather confused
  684. # [20:26] <rniwa> Ms2ger: hehe. deadlocking the operating system might indeed be useful if you're an attacker ;)
  685. # [20:26] <rniwa> Ms2ger: deadlocking the OS will be one perfect DoS attack indeed.
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  699. # [20:53] <annevk> where is sicking?
  700. # [20:53] <annevk> http://test.s0.no/cors/status.htm should not throw
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  710. # [21:20] <annevk> rniwa: my understanding is that those that have implemented SVG fonts implemented a subset
  711. # [21:20] <annevk> rniwa: so I suspect that if they are to stay someone has to write a spec on how they actually should work
  712. # [21:21] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  713. # [21:21] <annevk> rniwa: and if that spec has sufficient implementor feedback it might be something that's useful to have
  714. # [21:21] <annevk> sicking: http://test.s0.no/cors/status.htm
  715. # [21:21] <annevk> sicking: fix bugs!
  716. # [21:21] <annevk> ;)
  717. # [21:22] <smaug____> annevk: please file a bug and assign it to sicking :)
  718. # [21:23] <sicking> annevk: how do i find the actual tests
  719. # [21:23] <annevk> sicking: view source?
  720. # [21:23] <sicking> annevk: also, you seem to be missing redirect tests since I know we don't use the correct "Origin" header for those
  721. # [21:24] <annevk> these are not mine
  722. # [21:24] <annevk> and these are not what Opera's going to submit when we get around to that
  723. # [21:24] <annevk> I'm sure there's more bugs, this one just seemed quite weird :)
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  725. # [21:25] <sicking> ugh, these tests are hard to read
  726. # [21:26] <annevk> http://mediamatters.org/blog/201112120005 o_O
  727. # [21:27] <annevk> newnewtwitter so slow
  728. # [21:27] <annevk> meh
  729. # [21:27] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  730. # [21:29] <sicking> annevk: oh, it's because we have a special exception for "X-Custom". We always allow that header to be set and read
  731. # [21:29] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@1.47.199.28)
  732. # [21:30] <annevk> proprietary extensions?
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  734. # [21:31] <annevk> we can standardize that if you want...
  735. # [21:31] <annevk> will get the web littered with x-custom I guess
  736. # [21:31] <sicking> naah, just kidding, we don't have anything like that
  737. # [21:31] * annevk is getting confused
  738. # [21:32] <sicking> i suspect that would introduce CSRF everywhere :)
  739. # [21:32] <annevk> TabAtkins: MutationObserverInit is a dictionary, not an interface
  740. # [21:32] <sicking> i have no idea why these tests fail
  741. # [21:32] <sicking> because i still don't understand what they do
  742. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, I didn't realize there was a significant difference.
  743. # [21:32] <annevk> sicking: because you throw on .status I guess
  744. # [21:33] <annevk> sicking: they give back custom status codes for either preflight or response
  745. # [21:33] <sicking> annevk: but we only throw when people would otherwise return 0, right?
  746. # [21:33] <annevk> sicking: see the table above
  747. # [21:33] <annevk> sicking: I think per spec you should return the actual response code
  748. # [21:33] <annevk> as happens in WebKit
  749. # [21:34] <annevk> WebKit fails 5, because it doesn't fail preflight requests that have a non-200 status
  750. # [21:34] <sicking> i thought we returned the real code as soon as it's available
  751. # [21:34] <sicking> tests that don't give any feedback other than pass/fail sort of suck :(
  752. # [21:35] <sicking> oh, i guess there's the message thing
  753. # [21:35] <sicking> but it doesn't tell me everything that the real exception contains, like line number
  754. # [21:35] <annevk> seems pretty clear why it fails to me
  755. # [21:35] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, dictionaries are not exposed
  756. # [21:36] <annevk> TabAtkins: not sure if that's a feature or not, maybe we should have something to inspect dictionaries
  757. # [21:36] <sicking> annevk: so yeah, 1,2,5 probably fail because we throw rather than return 0. File a bug on smaug for that :)
  758. # [21:37] <zewt> annevk: the general pattern of interfaces + dictionaries that look almost identical is sort of annoying...
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  760. # [21:37] <smaug____> no no, sicking, cors is yours
  761. # [21:37] <zewt> i think it would be more annoying if it exposed two very similar objects, though
  762. # [21:37] <zewt> (to scripts, I mean)
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  764. # [21:37] <sicking> smaug____: this isn't cors specific. Our XHR implementation always throws for .status when it should return 0
  765. # [21:37] <zewt> at least right now the repetition is only internal
  766. # [21:37] <sicking> smaug____: i.e. when the channel failed
  767. # [21:37] <smaug____> though, I did change status handling at some point to be closer to what the spec wanted
  768. # Session Close: Wed Dec 14 21:40:50 2011
  769. #
  770. # Session Start: Wed Dec 14 21:40:50 2011
  771. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  772. # [21:40] * Disconnected
  773. # [21:41] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  774. # [21:41] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  775. # [21:41] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  776. # [21:41] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  777. # [21:42] <annevk> per spec status should work from 2
  778. # [21:43] <rniwa> sicking, annevk: would you care to comment on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68179 ?
  779. # [21:43] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  780. # [21:44] <rniwa> eric wants some clarification on the state of SVG fonts
  781. # [21:44] <WeirdAl> Ms2ger: ping re DOM4 spec
  782. # [21:44] <sicking> rniwa: https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/JdHnqpuUER4
  783. # [21:44] <sicking> rniwa: that's the announcement for SVG fonts being dropped from ACID3
  784. # [21:44] <rniwa> sicking: thanks!
  785. # [21:45] <sicking> rniwa: http://robert.ocallahan.org/2010/06/not-implementing-features-is-hard_03.html
  786. # [21:45] <sicking> rniwa: that's the context of mozilla pushing back against svg fonts
  787. # [21:45] <annevk> rniwa: done
  788. # [21:46] <sicking> rniwa: there's also been discussions on the SVG lists regarding dropping them from future versions of the SVG spec, but i don't have links for that
  789. # [21:46] <rniwa> sicking: thanks!
  790. # [21:46] <rniwa> sicking: I've added a comment with those URLs
  791. # [21:47] <rniwa> sicking: do you know where what SVG WG discussion is?
  792. # [21:47] <rniwa> is webkit currently the only engine that supports SVG fonts?
  793. # [21:47] <rniwa> or do other engines support it?
  794. # [21:47] <sicking> rniwa: i don't know no. I would imagine on the svg list
  795. # [21:48] <sicking> rniwa: i know microsoft is pushing back against them too.
  796. # [21:48] <sicking> rniwa: i believe they are not in IE9 or IE10
  797. # [21:48] <smaug____> Opera supports SVG fonts
  798. # [21:48] <smaug____> some of it
  799. # [21:48] <rniwa> smaug____: ah, ok.
  800. # [21:48] <smaug____> webkit supports also some subset of svg fonts
  801. # [21:48] <rniwa> smaug____: is that "some" same as what webkit implements?
  802. # [21:48] <smaug____> and IIRC Opera and webkit don't support the same subset
  803. # [21:48] <rniwa> smaug____: or their symmetric different non-empty?
  804. # [21:49] <rniwa> difference*
  805. # [21:49] <smaug____> but it is probably quite close
  806. # [21:49] <gsnedders> rniwa: I'm pretty certain that what WebKit implemented isn't the same as what Opera implements
  807. # [21:49] <rniwa> :(
  808. # [21:49] <gsnedders> I believe Opera implements quite a lot more than WebKit.
  809. # [21:49] <rniwa> that's horrible
  810. # [21:49] <gsnedders> It's possibly WebKit is mostly a subset of what Opera supports
  811. # [21:49] <gsnedders> *popssible
  812. # [21:49] <rniwa> gsnedders: so Opera implements a superset of what WebKit implements, I hope?
  813. # [21:49] <gsnedders> *possible
  814. # [21:50] <gsnedders> rniwa: More or less, I believe. There are a few things I think you support that we don't, though.
  815. # [21:50] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  817. # [21:51] <gsnedders> My understanding is WebKit supports not that much more than what Acid3 tested.
  818. # [21:51] <rniwa> sicking: found: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Oct/0124.html
  819. # [21:51] <WeirdAl> bah, once again I have to remind myself that a good idea for me isn't always a good idea for the Web
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  821. # [21:52] <smaug____> sicking: annevk: did you file that XHR bug?
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  824. # [21:53] <WeirdAl> annevk: spec question on XHR timeout: is it possible / permitted for the user to write the following
  825. # [21:54] <WeirdAl> var xhr = new XMLHttpRequest(); xhr.timeout = 1200; xhr.open(url, "GET", false) /* signifying sync */;
  826. # [21:54] <WeirdAl> the order of calls on XHR is what I'm concerned about
  827. # [21:55] <WeirdAl> ah, the spec covers that, never mind
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  830. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Trying to find out on Google how much of SVG Fonts WebKit supports is just showing up loads of cases of bz's article which claims that both WebKit and Opera only support the subset needed to pass Acid3, which isn't really helpful.
  831. # [21:56] <smaug____> WeirdAl: I thought your patch handled that
  832. # [21:56] <gsnedders> (Our implementation goes back to 2005 or so, so predates Acid3, and supports way more than Acid3 requires)
  833. # [21:57] <WeirdAl> no, I think I missed that particular case
  834. # [21:57] <WeirdAl> it handles the reverse, for sure
  835. # [21:57] <smaug____> WeirdAl: my bad
  836. # [21:57] <WeirdAl> mine too :p
  837. # [21:57] <smaug____> WeirdAl: but I did ask for tests for sync xhr
  838. # [21:57] <WeirdAl> right, that's why I started thinking about it
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  840. # [21:58] <annevk> WeirdAl: open() throws
  841. # [21:59] <sicking> smaug____: yeah, the problem is that .status is throwing when accessed in readyState === 1
  842. # [21:59] <annevk> smaug____: I haven't filed it
  843. # [21:59] <smaug____> I just filed
  844. # [21:59] <annevk> during readyState 1 .status should not be available
  845. # [21:59] <annevk> maybe testcase bug?
  846. # [21:59] <smaug____> WeirdAl: hmm, did rest of the sync XHR changes land already
  847. # [21:59] <annevk> but it should not throw either
  848. # [21:59] <smaug____> maybe hsivonen did land them
  849. # [22:00] <WeirdAl> dunno, my tree's out of date anyway
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  854. # [22:03] <sicking> annevk: yeah, the test sets up a readystatechange listener which checks that .status is the expected value before calling .send
  855. # [22:03] <sicking> annevk: so the first thing it'll do is to check .status during readystate 1
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  857. # [22:03] <sicking> annevk: don't know why this doesn't make the test fail everywhere
  858. # [22:04] <sicking> annevk: shouldn't assert_equals make the test fail if the two values are different?
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  861. # [22:05] <sicking> annevk: i.e. looks to me that tests 3,4 should fail everywhere
  862. # [22:06] <sicking> annevk: fix bugs!
  863. # [22:06] <sicking> :)
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  866. # [22:10] <smaug____> sicking: so never-throwing passes 1, 2, 5
  867. # [22:10] <smaug____> 3 and 4 expect 400, but we'd give 0
  868. # [22:10] <sicking> smaug____: as we should
  869. # [22:10] <sicking> smaug____: the test is just wrong
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  871. # [22:10] <smaug____> k
  872. # [22:11] <smaug____> who wrote those tests?
  873. # [22:11] <sicking> smaug____: at least the first time it gets .status
  874. # [22:11] <sicking> smaug____: possibly all other times when it gets .status should we return 400
  875. # [22:12] <sicking> smaug____: ask annevk
  876. # [22:12] <smaug____> er, what?
  877. # [22:12] <smaug____> first time 0 then 400 o_O
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  883. # [22:19] <sicking> smaug____: we should return 0 when .readystate is 1
  884. # [22:19] <sicking> smaug____: and 400 once readystate is 2 and we've received the http head
  885. # [22:19] <sicking> smaug____: it gets .status from the readystatechange handler
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  891. # [22:25] <Ms2ger> WeirdAl, ack
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  893. # [22:25] <WeirdAl> Ms2ger: never mind... I had an idea for an ElementWalker, but then I realized: who needs that besides me? On the Web? Nobody.
  894. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> I won't argue with that :)
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  899. # [22:29] <zewt> annevk: just out of curiosity, in async XHR2, is there any point to setting the synchronous flag in send() step 9, since 8.5 makes all of step 9 async already?
  900. # [22:30] <Velmont> annevk: lol, I see you're an effective test user :P
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  912. # [22:58] <Ms2ger> \o/ Event constructors!
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  915. # [23:00] <smaug____> Ms2ger: some. We need spec changes to add support for more event ctors
  916. # [23:00] <Ms2ger> smaug____, you saw the D4E proposal?
  917. # [23:00] <smaug____> yeah
  918. # [23:00] <smaug____> it has some
  919. # [23:00] <smaug____> UIEvent
  920. # [23:00] <smaug____> and MouseEvent
  921. # [23:00] <smaug____> ah, I could add still compositionevent
  922. # [23:01] <smaug____> oh, also progress event
  923. # [23:02] <smaug____> Ms2ger: if you find any specs for event init dictionaries which Gecko doesn't support, please file bugs
  924. # [23:02] <Ms2ger> Will do
  925. # [23:02] <Ms2ger> Touch events?
  926. # [23:02] <zewt> (havn't checked, but I'd guess WebGLContextEventInit, FWIW)
  927. # [23:03] <smaug____> I don't know what will happen to touch events :(
  928. # [23:03] <smaug____> Apple isn't playing nicely
  929. # [23:03] <Ms2ger> As usual
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  933. # [23:05] * bzed_ is now known as bzed
  934. # [23:06] <zewt> how do mails like this get sent by @google users in 2011? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-December/034185.html
  935. # [23:06] <zewt> it is
  936. # [23:06] <zewt> somewhat
  937. # [23:06] <zewt> hard to read
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  940. # [23:07] <timeless> oh
  941. # [23:07] <timeless> that's easy
  942. # [23:07] <timeless> you have two different apps "helping" you do word wrapping
  943. # [23:08] <timeless> one of them is gmail, the other is whatever you composed your letter in
  944. # [23:08] <timeless> it bites me often enough
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  952. # [23:11] <timeless> anyone know how to get gmail /mu/ to flush its pending tasks?
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  957. # [23:17] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  959. # [23:24] <heycam> rniwa, also not sure you're aware but there's an effort underway to allow SVG glyphs inside OpenType fonts
  960. # [23:24] <heycam> rniwa, so that's not the SVG Fonts format per se; it's using all the normal OT tables to do glyph substitution etc., but just using SVG content inside a table for the glyph
  961. # [23:25] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  968. # [23:35] * jwalden thinks of XML, and two problems
  969. # [23:35] <Ms2ger> Now you've got a dozen
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  976. # [23:44] <rniwa> heycam: interesting
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  978. # [23:45] <heycam> rniwa, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svgopentype/ if you're interested
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  981. # [23:48] <rniwa> heycam: we probably need to limit the SVG features we can use there?
  982. # [23:49] <heycam> rniwa, yes. definitely no external resources, at least. :)
  983. # [23:49] <heycam> rniwa, also script. but animation should be allowed.
  984. # [23:49] <shepazu> yes, probably only shapes would be reasonable
  985. # [23:49] <heycam> shepazu, just rectangles
  986. # [23:49] <shepazu> heycam: SVGPoint
  987. # [23:50] <shepazu> (yes, the object, not the element)
  988. # [23:50] <shepazu> ONLY CATMULL-ROM CURVES!!
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  993. # [23:56] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  994. # [23:56] <rniwa> heycam: also.. it probably doesn't make sense for it have text inside
  995. # [23:56] <rniwa> heycam: i don't want my glyph to contain letters of some other font
  996. # [23:57] <zewt> infinite font recursion D:
  997. # [23:57] <heycam> rniwa, certainly doesn't make sense to have the same font being used inside. but text in general?
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  999. # [23:57] <heycam> rniwa, what do we gain from disallowing it
  1000. # [23:57] <rniwa> heycam: how do you detect recursions then?
  1001. # [23:57] <heycam> rniwa, you'd have to do some work for that, sure
  1002. # [23:57] <rniwa> heycam: e.g. if you have font1 -> font2 -> font1
  1003. # [23:57] <heycam> (yeah for mutually recursive fonts)
  1004. # [23:57] <zewt> any number of ways (check the stack explicitly; limit the stack depth; etc)
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  1006. # [23:58] <Ms2ger> So, given the document "<img id=foo><img id=foo>"
  1007. # [23:58] <Ms2ger> What does document.body.children.item("foo") return?
  1008. # [23:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it could be the first element, no?
  1009. # [23:58] <rniwa> s/could/should/
  1010. # [23:58] <Ms2ger> Why? :)
  1011. # Session Close: Thu Dec 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)