/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 17 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:18] <Hixie> huh
  10. # [00:19] <Hixie> someone points out that the <input type=""> sections don't actually include the keyword needed to trigger them
  11. # [00:19] <Hixie> that's kinda silly of me
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  13. # [00:19] <Hixie> i wonder where to put them
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  15. # [00:20] <Hixie> in the heading? ("Text state (type=text) and Search state (type=search)") In the first paragraph? In examples?
  16. # [00:20] <Hixie> wouldn't be bad to add examples in general, i guess
  17. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> I like the headings.
  18. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> So you can see them in the TOC easily.
  19. # [00:20] <Hixie> yeah, that's probably reasonable
  20. # [00:20] <Hixie> curses
  21. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Why curses?
  22. # [00:21] <Hixie> means work
  23. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Come here and I'll pat you on the head. Specs is hard.
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  25. # [00:21] <Hixie> don't i know it
  26. # [00:22] <Hixie> "(type=hidden)" or "(type="hidden")"?
  27. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> The first.
  28. # [00:22] <Hixie> k
  29. # [00:22] <Hixie> (type=hidden) or ("type=hidden") ?
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  32. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Hm. I think the first.
  33. # [00:23] <Hixie> k
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  95. # [03:15] <zewt> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-texttracks/2011Dec/0073.html gah, now gmail is apparently screwing up plaintext quote formatting, badly, when you send mails in the rich text editor
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  115. # [05:00] <Yuhong> "hsivonen wonders if document.write was considered a simple feature in the Netscape 2 design phase"
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  117. # [05:01] <Yuhong> I think it has a lot to do with tags as commands (which older browsers like Netscape 2 used) vs actually creating a parse tree (which later browsers like for example IE4 and later used).
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  133. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/103115
  134. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> "Cache and reuse HTMLCollections exposed by Document." ... "This reduces memory consumption by ~800 kB (on 64-bit) when loading
  135. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> the full HTML5 spec."
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  138. # [06:25] <zewt> that seems somewhat minor, for that case, heh
  139. # [06:28] <roc> We've been doing that for a long time, I'm surprised they weren't
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  163. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> http://msujaws.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/more-enhancements-for-html5-video-and-audio-in-firefox/
  164. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> "The loop attribute has been implemented"
  165. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> Features planned: "Add detection of H.264 videos and custom error UI" sounds interesting
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  167. # [07:57] <JonathanNeal> hello
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  169. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: hola
  170. # [08:02] <JonathanNeal> What's happenin'?
  171. # [08:02] <JonathanNeal> Everybody have a good week?
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  178. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> Saturday afternoon here for me
  179. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> W3C published drafts of Audio APIs this week
  180. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> also, news this week that IE will start doing user auto-updates next year is pretty cool
  181. # [08:14] <JonathanNeal> Yea, I thought it was next month, must have been too happy to notice.
  182. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> and the RFC for the WebSockets protocol was finally published
  183. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> and news that responseType=json for XHR will ship Firefox 10
  184. # [08:16] <JonathanNeal> woot.
  185. # [08:16] <JonathanNeal> responseType json allows for what? I can just google it I guess.
  186. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#json-response-entity-body
  187. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> and in "dog bites man" non-news, the MPEG group has issued one of their periodic announcements suggesting they are on the verge of releasing some royalty-free MPEG codec
  188. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> that was a couple of weeks ago
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  190. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> "It seems every few months a patent pool or some one manages to spin up wishful thinking that there will soon be a “new deal” that will answer the needs of royalty free communities, only to cleverly leave the hopeful twisting in the wind. "
  191. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> http://www.robglidden.com/2011/12/mpeg-plus-or-patent-pool-lite-mpeg-mulls-royalty-free-proposals/
  192. # [08:20] <JonathanNeal> I'm sorry, I have trouble reading that description from the w3
  193. # [08:21] <JonathanNeal> So, would you weigh in your thoughts on mpeg? Are you hoping webm takes off?
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  201. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> oh my
  202. # [08:44] <JonathanNeal> oh your
  203. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> Y U not let us make own web browser??
  204. # [08:45] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: I'm sorry for stopping you. Stopping redacted.
  205. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> heh
  206. # [08:47] <JonathanNeal> One of my co-workers is writing a javascript library that he hopes will make writing webapps more like writing iphone apps. His previous job was writing iPhone apps. I saw the code. It looked mighty scary.
  207. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> seems like there's a few people been doing that for a while now..
  208. # [08:48] <JonathanNeal> I can't say if it was good or bad, but there was a lot of prototyping going on, and it looked awfully complicated.
  209. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> but I'm sure there are better ways to do it
  210. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> (better than what we already have, I mean)
  211. # [08:50] <JonathanNeal> For sure, I've been obsessing over a better events delegator all evening.
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  215. # [08:53] <JonathanNeal> i want an easy way to listen for an event with multiple parts, like mousedown+mousemove, so it only fires on a mousemove after a mousedown.
  216. # [08:54] <JonathanNeal> i want an easy way to delegate by a selector contained by the currentTarget or containing the currentTarget.
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  219. # [08:57] <JonathanNeal> Well, I'm glad to hear the internet is doing well. From my court, the new html5shim is being tested and will be released very soon. I hope it convinces more people to use html5 which ultimately rid us of ie<9.
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  250. # [12:49] <annevk> Why is publishing stuff like http://allthis.com/u10838 okay and why is there no clear opt out?
  251. # [12:49] <annevk> Nobody needs to buy my time, I'm on IRC
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  254. # [13:20] <annevk> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/intl/uconv/src/charsetalias.properties#515 :)
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  259. # [13:36] <annevk> I guess nobody makes errors in shift_jis
  260. # [13:37] <annevk> 3C 6D 65 74 61 20 63 68 61 72 73 65 74 3D 73 68 69 66 74 5F 6A 69 73 3E E0 3C 74 65 73 74 3E gives different results all over
  261. # [13:37] <annevk> (they key being the E0 byte)
  262. # [13:37] <annevk> in Gecko you get a replacement character, Chrome displays nothing, Opera gives �test>
  263. # [13:38] <annevk> in Gecko you also get the <test> element in the DOM
  264. # [13:39] <annevk> if however the E0 is followed by an EOF, all browsers display nothing
  265. # [13:41] <annevk> actually, Chrome inserts an empty Text node followed by a an element node <test> (like Gecko)
  266. # [13:41] <annevk> so I guess they are a little closer to each other than Opera is to either
  267. # [13:45] <annevk> does that mean that in Opera shift_jis is not actually ASCII-compatible?
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  270. # [13:48] <annevk> btw, for those interested in ECMAScript versioning: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/018924.html
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  275. # [14:02] <Philip`> So you get to write either
  276. # [14:02] <Philip`> "use strict";
  277. # [14:02] <Philip`> or
  278. # [14:02] <Philip`> use version 6;
  279. # [14:03] <Philip`> Isn't that going to be a little confusing?
  280. # [14:04] <annevk> trying out random shift_jis stuff is fun...
  281. # [14:04] <bga> es3 was good
  282. # [14:04] <annevk> 81 B0 undefined per 932, gives ・in Gecko
  283. # [14:05] <annevk> replacement character in Chrome/Presto
  284. # [14:06] * Philip` wonders if there has been an attempt to enumerate every 2-byte string and see what character comes out
  285. # [14:07] <annevk> there will have been one soonish
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  289. # [14:10] <annevk> it does seem like putting multi-octet encodings directly in the specification is going to be a bad idea
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  291. # [14:10] <annevk> as for shift_jis that's a little over 16k potential code points
  292. # [14:11] <annevk> (~64 * 256)
  293. # [14:12] <annevk> heh, even simple things like 80
  294. # [14:13] <annevk> U+FFFD in Opera, U+0080 in Gecko, nothing in Chrome
  295. # [14:13] <Philip`> Do implementations just have giant byte-sequence tables, or do they do the arithmetic instead?
  296. # [14:13] <annevk> you need a table to map it to Unicode
  297. # [14:13] <annevk> see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/cc305152.aspx for a pretty nice overview
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  299. # [14:14] <annevk> with math you can go from shift_jis to some other Japanese standard, but then you still don't have code points (but you could do that to reduce memory footprint I guess)
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  303. # [14:36] <annevk> Ms2ger: fixing xref
  304. # [14:38] <annevk> fixed
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  334. # [16:16] <annevk> oh yes
  335. # [16:17] <annevk> inbox < 500
  336. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> Wow :)
  337. # [16:20] * Joins: Kuruma (~Kuruman@cherry.kurumatani.jp)
  338. # [16:20] <Ms2ger> Inbox < 70
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  340. # [16:25] <gsnedders> annevk: Can you make your encoding testsuite output codepoints in base 16? seing them in base 10 is weird.
  341. # [16:26] <annevk> what's the easiest way to do that?
  342. # [16:26] <annevk> I can figure it out, but if you know
  343. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> Number.prototype.toString ( [ radix ] )?
  344. # [16:29] <gsnedders> yeah, exactly
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  346. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm inclined to just turn on the notifications to www-dom now and ask for forgiveness later
  347. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> if anybody actually complains
  348. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> So, did we make WebIDL forbid overloading methods in subclasses?
  349. # [16:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: go ahead
  350. # [16:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: we'll find out quickly enough if it's problematic
  351. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> yup
  352. # [16:34] <annevk> and www-dom is relatively low traffic
  353. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> sou da na
  354. # [16:37] <annevk> Ms2ger: gsnedders, thanks and done
  355. # [16:37] <Ms2ger> Np
  356. # [16:41] <annevk> also put the source code in https://bitbucket.org/annevk/webencodings in case anyone wants to use it
  357. # [16:42] <annevk> it seems Opera treats unrecognized as only bytes 00-7F are okay
  358. # [16:43] <annevk> not sure that's a good fallback
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  361. # [16:57] <zewt> Ms2ger: isn't that used? (HTMLAllCollection, etc)
  362. # [16:57] <zewt> annevk: sorry, parse error on that last
  363. # [16:59] <annevk> oops
  364. # [17:00] <annevk> with unrecognized labels only 00-7F work, the rest gets FFFD'd
  365. # [17:00] <annevk> rather than falling back to say windows-1252
  366. # [17:00] <zewt> so unrecognized = true ASCII
  367. # [17:00] <zewt> would be nice if everyone did that to begin with, but since they don't ...
  368. # [17:00] <zewt> though
  369. # [17:01] <zewt> everyone else i'm sure falls back on locale-dependencies, right?
  370. # [17:01] <annevk> "true ascii"
  371. # [17:01] <annevk> "ascii" is windows-1252 as it should be :)
  372. # [17:01] <zewt> yeah I hate that I have to distinguish between "no, really, ASCII" and other crap :P
  373. # [17:02] <annevk> should just talk about 00-7F and U+0000-U+007F rather than ASCII
  374. # [17:02] <annevk> ASCII is ambiguous
  375. # [17:03] <zewt> "The results for windows-1252 (and friends) is confusing because this is a common fallback encoding." in windows, at least, change your system language to something else to distinguish
  376. # [17:03] <zewt> also, opera uses heuristics for unspecified encodings, right?
  377. # [17:03] <zewt> (according to recent discussions on webvtt)
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  379. # [17:04] <zewt> not sure what other weird variables there are surrounding fallbacks
  380. # [17:06] <annevk> I think everyone uses heuristics
  381. # [17:06] <annevk> but webvtt should be utf-8 only
  382. # [17:06] <annevk> are they changing that?
  383. # [17:06] <zewt> er wait
  384. # [17:06] <zewt> those discussions were about language detection
  385. # [17:07] <zewt> (another big mess, with a lot of the same problems, but separate)
  386. # [17:07] <annevk> that sounds like the unicode layer
  387. # [17:07] <annevk> someone should fix that
  388. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> I read that as "the unicorn layer"
  389. # [17:07] <annevk> that's above all, not quite there yet :)
  390. # [17:09] <zewt> (the question was that since Firefox always, apparently, defaults to Japanese for CJK text unless @lang or a language-specific encoding says otherwise--since it does that, could Opera remove its special heuristics and do the same)
  391. # [17:10] <zewt> (among other things)
  392. # [17:11] <annevk> "for CJK text" is defined?
  393. # [17:11] <zewt> for text using chinese characters, where you need to pick the right font for the actual language
  394. # [17:11] <annevk> yeah but does that mean one such code point?
  395. # [17:11] <annevk> and within how many code points does it need to occur from the start?
  396. # [17:12] <zewt> not sure what you mean
  397. # [17:12] <zewt> do you know about han unification?
  398. # [17:12] <annevk> yes
  399. # [17:12] <zewt> well that's why you need to pick the font--can you rephrase the question?
  400. # [17:12] <annevk> the algorithm for determining CJK text is not defined
  401. # [17:12] <zewt> right
  402. # [17:13] <zewt> it's opera-specific (I don't know if any other browsers have anything like it, I'm guessing not)
  403. # [17:13] <annevk> you just said
  404. # [17:13] <annevk> Firefox defaults to Japanese for CJK text
  405. # [17:13] <zewt> right
  406. # [17:13] <annevk> presumably it somehow knows it's dealing with CJK text
  407. # [17:13] <annevk> based on some algorithm
  408. # [17:13] <zewt> for text in codepoint ranges representing chinese characters
  409. # [17:13] <EvanR> if you are ok with proportional fonts pango will layout and pick fonts for you when rendering
  410. # [17:13] <zewt> (how *exactly* it defines that I don't know offhand)
  411. # [17:14] <annevk> I don't think that's defined
  412. # [17:14] <EvanR> which is what many browsers use
  413. # [17:14] <zewt> (might be "if the default font doesn't have it and we go looking for a fallback")
  414. # [17:14] <zewt> (or rather "the current font")
  415. # [17:14] <annevk> zewt: but if you first have say 1024 western code points and then your CJK text starts?
  416. # [17:15] <annevk> oh well
  417. # [17:15] <annevk> got to go
  418. # [17:15] <zewt> heh later
  419. # [17:15] <zewt> and no I don't know the fine details
  420. # [17:15] <zewt> (or all of the coarse ones, for that matter)
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  432. # [18:18] <bga> http://groups.google.com/group/jsmentors/browse_thread/thread/390477bfc89f9058
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  440. # [19:17] <zewt> annevk5: do you know whether all of the aliases in this table actually really map to the same thing?
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  442. # [19:19] <zewt> eg. x-user-defined and iso8859-1 seem to be separate items in IE9 (they may have the same table, but they show up separately in the menu)
  443. # [19:24] <Philip`> Maybe x-user-defined is only equivalent to iso8859-1 when the user defines it to be?
  444. # [19:24] <zewt> i define it to be unicorns
  445. # [19:31] <Philip`> (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa752010(v=vs.85).aspx indicates x-user-defined is code page 50000, and http://blogs.msdn.com/b/shawnste/archive/2007/03/17/hacking-code-pages-or-how-to-totally-hose-your-machine-and-your-data.aspx indicates you can write a DLL to provide a custom implementation of code pages >50000 (which might really mean ">=50000"))
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  525. # [23:31] <WeirdAl> annevk: spec suggestion for XHR2, the open method, section 4.7.1. Step 11 (the timeout check) comes after the URL resolving. I think it might be better to move that to before resolving the URL (step 5, 6).
  526. # [23:32] <WeirdAl> resolving the URL would be more expensive than checking for the timeout not equalling zero
  527. # [23:32] <WeirdAl> and we'd throw an exception anyway
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  535. # Session Close: Sun Dec 18 00:00:00 2011

The end :)