/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-21 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Dec 21 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:07] <sythe> TabAtkins, http://openzest.com/s/game/game3.html
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# [00:29] <TabAtkins_> sythe: Works just fine for me, as far as I can tell.
# [00:29] <sythe> TabAtkins, Ah, yes
# [00:29] <sythe> It doesn't, TabAtkins
# [00:29] <sythe> I cheated, and used a 10 minute sound file
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# [00:29] <TabAtkins_> I know.
# [00:29] <TabAtkins_> When I opened one of the files myself and added loop, it looped correctly.
# [00:29] <sythe> Just try it in a real-time html editor
# [00:29] <sythe> Really?
# [00:29] <sythe> It doesn't work at all
# [00:30] <TabAtkins_> Yes. Chrome tries to open .ogg in <video> rather than <audio>, but still.
# [00:30] <sythe> In Firefox and/or Chrome/Safari
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# [00:30] <smaug____> TabAtkins_: hey, when will Chrome finally drop h264 ?
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# [00:31] <TabAtkins_> sythe: I just set up a proper <audio> pointing to the mp3, and it also worked fine in Chrome.
# [00:31] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: No comment. We're talking with roc about details.
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# [00:32] <sythe> TabAtkins, With autoplay?
# [00:32] <smaug____> ah, ok, understood
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# [00:33] <TabAtkins_> sythe: Yes.
# [00:33] <TabAtkins_> <audio controls autoplay loop src="whatever-your-mp3-file-was"></audio>
# [00:34] <sythe> Well
# [00:34] <sythe> It doesn't work in Safari, does it?
# [00:34] <TabAtkins_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1286
# [00:35] <TabAtkins_> No idea. I don't have Safari on hand.
# [00:35] <sythe> TabAtkins, Is the "preload" attribute messing it up
# [00:35] <sythe> ?
# [00:35] <sythe> I've tried it with Chrome, Safari and FF
# [00:35] <sythe> None of them loop it
# [00:35] <sythe> (On Linux, BTW)
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# [00:36] <roc> we only added "loop" support in FF11
# [00:36] <smaug____> and we don't support mp3
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# [00:37] <roc> that too
# [00:37] <sythe> roc, Really?
# [00:37] <TabAtkins_> sythe: preload doesn't affect anything on my computer. I'm running Chrome 16 on Linux.
# [00:38] <roc> yes
# [00:38] <sythe> TabAtkins, Does it loop? In Chrome 16 on Linux?
# [00:38] <TabAtkins_> sythe: Yes.
# [00:38] <sythe> Lemme double-check
# [00:39] <sythe> It doesn't even play for me, actually
# [00:39] <sythe> In Chromium
# [00:39] <TabAtkins_> sythe: then you're doing something exceedingly wrong, I guess. ^_^
# [00:39] <sythe> TabAtkins, I had other testers
# [00:39] <sythe> The only person who had it looping was on OSX
# [00:39] <sythe> And he said that it made a beeping noise between loops
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# [00:40] <TabAtkins_> All I know is that duplicating the element in live dom viewer and skipping to the end makes it loop. And it played in the original page (though I don't think I was on it long enough to hear if it looped).
# [00:40] <TabAtkins_> There was a small skip between loops, but no beep for me to hear.
# [00:40] <TabAtkins_> (That skip is possibly a bug - it should be seamless if the sounds are.)
# [00:43] <sythe> Hmm
# [00:43] <sythe> So...will it loop in Firefox?
# [00:44] <sythe> "we only added "loop" support in FF11...and we don't support mp3"
# [00:44] <sythe> That's a bit of a fail
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# [00:45] <sythe> If true, it basically makes it unable for me to loop audio, or perhaps even use HTML5 audio, at all, ATM
# [00:47] <sythe> Right?
# [00:47] <TabAtkins_> Nah, you can use script to catch when the audio ends, and start it again.
# [00:47] <TabAtkins_> Not supporting mp3 is actually rather reasonable, given the licensing issues.
# [00:48] <sythe> TabAtkins, Link...to this fabled script?
# [00:48] <TabAtkins_> Restarting it with script isn't as good as the "loop" attribute (you're guaranteed a small skip), but it'll work.
# [00:48] <sythe> None of the ones I tried seemed to work
# [00:49] <TabAtkins_> sythe: A trivial one would be to create a setInterval with the same delay as the length of the audio that resets its time to 0.
# [00:51] <jamesr> is there an event fired when the playing ends?
# [00:51] <TabAtkins_> I think so, but I can't recall its name and can't find it in the spec right now.
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# [01:17] <jamesr> TabAtkins_: does CSSOM return used values, or actual values?
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# [01:19] <jamesr> mdc claims getComputedStyle() always returns used values, but i'm not sure if i trust it
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# [01:23] <kennyluck> jamesr, resolved value maybe? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#resolved-value
# [01:23] <jamesr> woah
# [01:24] <jamesr> so resolved = computed, except sometimes used
# [01:24] <jamesr> does anything return actual values or is that supposed to be hidden away?
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# [01:33] <TabAtkins_> jamesr: It returns computed or used, depending on the property.
# [01:33] <TabAtkins_> actual values are hidden away.
# [01:33] <jamesr> cool
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# [01:34] <TabAtkins_> The reason for the "computed or used" is that "computed value" used to mean something different in CSS1 and 2, before 2.1.
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# [02:03] <MikeSmith> annevk5: about bugzilla for the Fullscreen and Encoding specs, I created a "Web Platform (other)" product
# [02:03] <MikeSmith> and added those as components
# [02:03] <MikeSmith> about the URL spec, we already have a "URL spec" component under the HTML WG product
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# [02:11] <smaug____> "The event must not be retargeted during the default phase of event dispatch." ?
# [02:12] <smaug____> dglazkov: what is that?
# [02:12] <smaug____> "default phase"
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# [02:31] <roc> TabAtkins: no browsers have manged to implement skip-free looping yet
# [02:32] <roc> we were waiting to implement "loop" until we could implement it skip-free, then noticed that all other browsers had done the trivial skippy implementation, so why bother waiting
# [02:32] <roc> scripted looping is as simple as <audio onended="event.target.play()">
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# [02:46] <zewt> kennyluck: what's your intlfont.language.group ff pref? curious if that's what's triggering the difference
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# [02:51] <kennyluck> zewt, ja for the ja installer, zh-TW for the zh-TW. They are both initial vaue.
# [02:51] <zewt> right. was wondering if that was the setting the installers were changing
# [02:52] <zewt> at least it's easier to test that way than hanging off the system locale (don't have to reboot)
# [02:54] <zewt> (taking what consolations I can get? heh)
# [02:57] <zewt> changing that value from x-western to zh-TW doesn't change the output, though.
# [02:58] <kennyluck> Well, since it depends on OS-locale, which probably isn't in any ff pref.
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# [02:58] <zewt> but you had different output with different FF installer languages, regardless of locale
# [02:59] <zewt> (your output from JA and ZH installers wasn't the same as mine with an English installer)
# [02:59] <kennyluck> zewt, than's true. I think that's related to default font setting.
# [02:59] <zewt> the default font is per-language, though
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# [03:00] <zewt> mine is SimSun for simplified chinese, ... Taiwan is weird (only Monospace is set to MingLiU, the others are just generic fonts), Japanese is ms mincho/gothic
# [03:00] <TabAtkins> roc: Ah, that's the event. I'd forgotten.
# [03:01] <zewt> (and "allow pages to choose fonts" is turned off)
# [03:01] <kennyluck> zewt, I think zh-TW l10n people do tune, say, the default font for @zh-CN lang.
# [03:01] <zewt> that's pretty evil.
# [03:02] <zewt> this whole thing is evil wrapped in nastiness tied up in horror
# [03:02] <kennyluck> i don't know if that's real evil as OS can always switches their default font.
# [03:02] <zewt> the OS doesn't pick browser fonts
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# [03:04] <zewt> well... i sure hope browsers aren't letting OS font renderers get their fingers into that ...
# [03:04] <zewt> heh
# [03:04] <zewt> but font selection is a destroyer of hope :)
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# [03:06] <kennyluck> It is. Though I won't consider zh pages with ja glyph as broken, but #whatwg seems to have the culture to want to standardize every single non-UI browser behavior :)
# [03:07] <zewt> but Japanese users do seem to consider Japanese pages with Chinese glyphs as broken
# [03:07] <kennyluck> zewt, any source about that statement?
# [03:08] <zewt> kennyluck: no, just a sentiment I've heard many times--maybe ask rniwa when he's around, i've talked to him about the issue
# [03:11] <dglazkov> smaug____: afk, can you file a bug?
# [03:11] <smaug____> dglazkov: will do
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# [03:29] <smaug____> dglazkov: though, the spec seems to lack all the declarative part
# [03:29] <smaug____> no way to use external components
# [03:29] <smaug____> I guess I'll read the document once those are added. hard to judge anything before that
# [03:30] <smaug____> hmm, or is there some other document explaining more...
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# [03:54] <cartes9> hello
# [03:55] <cartes9> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/html5-is-html-and-xml.html
# [03:55] <cartes9> http://www.la-grange.net/2009/07/05/html5-xhtml5/
# [03:55] <cartes9> are these documents still valid?
# [04:01] <MikeSmith> cartes9: yeah
# [04:01] <MikeSmith> in that they are describing what the spec says is valid
# [04:02] <cartes9> i see... that is what i was wondering.. too
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# [04:02] <cartes9> i told one member in the group that i'm trying to translate this
# [04:02] <cartes9> document.
# [04:03] <cartes9> and he was pointing out how old these are.
# [04:04] <cartes9> i thought it didn't matter because core parts usually don't change even it's after a couple years
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# [04:08] <cartes9> MikeSmith thanks
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# [04:57] <MikeSmith> there's no way to link to specific comments in G+, I guess
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# [04:58] <MikeSmith> wanted to directly link to a clarifying comment that Joel Webber made to his G+ posting about the Shadow DOM spec
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# [05:02] <smaug____> ugh, is there some spec discussion happening in G+
# [05:03] <jamesr> you can't talk about that there! talk about it over here or shut up! #freespeech
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# [05:07] <MikeSmith> heh
# [05:08] <MikeSmith> https://plus.google.com/111111598146968769323/posts/4L2voQVzswx
# [05:09] <MikeSmith> «The way things work right now, there's absolutely no way to create, e.g., a single "LabeledInput" element that's comprised of multiple existing elements, then treat it as a single logical element.»
# [05:09] <MikeSmith> etc.
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# [05:15] <jamesr> yeah, replied on that thread
# [05:15] <jamesr> i'm really happy people are talking about this stuff
# [05:17] <MikeSmith> jamesr: good clarification
# [05:17] <MikeSmith> dglazkov should mine those comments for text to put into the intro of the document
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# [08:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah, didn't know about that component (URL spec)!
# [08:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: moved the bug there
# [08:37] <annevk> guess I'll now add a reference to the bug database from each spec
# [08:38] <kennyluck> that would be nice indeed
# [08:40] <annevk> I like this "participate" box I added to all specs, I wonder if people make use of it or just skip it not knowing it's there
# [08:43] <erlehmann> BE PART OF THE CREW
# [08:43] <erlehmann> LIKE THIS ON GOOGLITTER
# [08:43] <erlehmann> :3
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# [08:45] <annevk> morning erlehmann
# [08:45] <erlehmann> ohai
# [08:45] <kennyluck> People who are here certainly don't need it but it seems useful to newcomers.
# [08:45] <erlehmann> :3
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# [08:53] <kennyluck> annevk, why does public-webapps@w3.org link to a mailto: URI instead of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webbapps/ by the way? I never find mailto: URI useful but I can't speak for others. And ?subject= does serve a use case.
# [08:57] <annevk> you mean in DOM?
# [08:57] <annevk> I can add an archives link there
# [08:58] <annevk> whatwg links to mailing-list because you need to subscribe and such
# [08:58] <kennyluck> I am looking at dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
# [08:58] <annevk> does it help if I add (archives) after the mailto: links?
# [08:58] <annevk> with "archives" being a link
# [08:58] <kennyluck> annevk, I think so.
# [08:59] <annevk> k will do
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# [09:01] <kennyluck> Though before starting to use a offline mail client I used to moan everytime I misclicked a mailto: URI.
# [09:03] <annevk> ah right
# [09:04] <annevk> most browsers implement registerProtocolHandler now
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# [09:10] <annevk> whoa, back in the days W3C got a lot of spam: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-charsets/2004JanMar/
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# [09:22] <annevk> kennyluck: so if I list you in the acknowledgment section, how do I go about that?
# [09:23] <kennyluck> annevk, "Kang-Hao Lu" I guess. Thanks by the way.
# [09:24] <annevk> kennyluck: I can try Unicode if you prefer
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# [09:25] <kennyluck> annevk, well, "呂康豪（Kang-Hao Lu）" then.
# [09:26] <kennyluck> Not sure if that's too many characters :p
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# [09:26] * heycam steals those characters for his spec's acknowledgements section too! :)
# [09:27] <annevk> kennyluck: is that sorted after Z? :)
# [09:27] <annevk> I guess I'll sort you under K to keep it "simple"
# [09:28] <kennyluck> that makes sense.
# [09:28] <heycam> I'm using romanisation of family name as the sorting position
# [09:28] <annevk> heycam: how do you deal with Ms2ger?
# [09:29] <heycam> just sorted under M
# [09:29] <kennyluck> good question.
# [09:29] * annevk likes first name
# [09:29] <annevk> well, "name"
# [09:29] <annevk> kennyluck: seems somewhere along the line the characters got converted into character references, but should still be okay
# [09:30] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#acknowledgments
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# [09:48] <annevk> kennyluck: maybe I should use non-Kanji (is it Kanji?) parenthesis?
# [09:50] <annevk> thanks zcorpan for writing in the enum bug what I didn't do
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# [09:51] <kennyluck> annevk, you could. (My habit is to use ideograph parenthesis as much as possible but I don't particularly care about this). And yeah, it's Kanji or Han character.
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# [09:52] <annevk> kennyluck: it looks kind of weird with the comma following it
# [09:52] <kennyluck> ok
# [09:52] <annevk> kennyluck: but if it's semantically more correct, I'm fine with letting it stay and have font designers take care of it some day
# [09:53] <annevk> s/semantically//
# [09:53] <kennyluck> annevk, I know nothing about semantics.
# [09:53] <kennyluck> no it's not.
# [09:53] <annevk> k
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# [10:00] <erlehmann> annevk, what about the font designers?
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# [10:00] <erlehmann> looks correct to me here
# [10:00] <annevk> I just changed it
# [10:01] <annevk> mostly about "）," vs "),"
# [10:03] <erlehmann> but unicode was developed by 🔰 𝗧𝗬𝗣𝗢𝗚𝗥𝗔𝗣𝗛𝗬 𝗘𝗫𝗣𝗘𝗥𝗧𝗦
# [10:06] <kennyluck> What is 🔰? lol
# [10:06] <erlehmann> kennyluck, 🔰 U+1F530 JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER
# [10:08] <kennyluck> huh, I do remember this symbol from an episode of Doraemon. I think that was Nobita driving as a beginner.
# [10:09] <erlehmann> i use it to denote that something is sarcastic. when i talk about 🔰 𝗘𝗫𝗣𝗘𝗥𝗧 𝗣𝗥𝗢𝗚𝗥𝗔𝗠𝗠𝗘𝗥𝗦 it is probably useful to have a symbol like that prefix the statement.
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# [10:11] <woef> spec developers talking about special font characters in anime.
# [10:11] <woef> There is no known geek scale to measure such activity.
# [10:12] <erlehmann> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo-copter
# [10:13] <annevk> woef: lol
# [10:17] <erlehmann> woef, slightly related, it is uncanny sometimes how i fit a cliche: i was at a friend's birthday last night. as everyone left or slept, he explained to me the inner workings of his wiki and we proceeded to find out how to best implement focus stealing prevention for the window manager he wrote. turns out chromium does weird stuff with windows. if i had a sense of fashion, i could be a great nerdy hipster!
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# [10:18] <woef> I'm never going to invite you to one of my birthdays :p
# [10:19] <erlehmann> woef, but don't you want to know … ABOUT THE XLIB?
# [10:20] <woef> Usually I like things preceded by X- ... geek-territory is an exception I'm afraid.
# [10:20] <zcorpan> X-mas?
# [10:21] <erlehmann> i predict you will never become an 🔰 𝗘𝗫𝗣𝗘𝗥𝗧 𝗣𝗥𝗢𝗚𝗥𝗔𝗠𝗠𝗘𝗥 if you continue on this path!
# [10:21] <woef> Sure, why not. As long as there's presents
# [10:21] <woef> Oh, but I am not a programmer! html is not even a proper language :D
# [10:21] <woef> I'm just a semantics-buff.
# [10:22] <zcorpan> why is it not a language?
# [10:22] <woef> I get angry when people use .news on overview page and .article on the detail page.
# [10:22] <woef> *programming language
# [10:22] <zcorpan> ah
# [10:22] <woef> Or not propper code.
# [10:22] <woef> I dunno, there was a fuss about that 5 or 10 years ago.
# [10:23] <woef> We couldn't call ourselves coders :)
# [10:23] <zcorpan> of course not. it's not a programming language. you're AUTHORS :-)
# [10:24] <woef> I'm a "Front-end Developer" now.
# [10:24] <woef> I'm quite happy with that.
# [10:25] <woef> Front-end author ... sounds quite artistic.
# [10:25] <zcorpan> heh
# [10:25] <woef> It could improve my hipster rating.
# [10:27] <erlehmann> today in tasteless fun: read the breivik manifesto, replace „cultural marxism“ with „hipsterisation“. corollary: search and replace makes even the most despicable reactionaries kind-of-funny at times.
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# [10:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, setcapture is an IEism
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# [10:43] <annevk> Ms2ger: so proprietary to two browsers
# [10:43] <annevk> ugh :(
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# [11:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: updated specs to make use of the new bug components
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> cool
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# [11:31] <annevk> zewt: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13408 is about what I meant the other day
# [11:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: I'm going through the LC bugs but I cannot really find anything bad, most bugs seem valid thus far
# [11:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: or have such a long argument that I gave up
# [11:32] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [11:37] <annevk> feel free to ping me if the situation changes, but I'll try to monitor it every now and then
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# [12:01] <annevk> foolip: when I try to commit a change to the spec-splitter on html5.org I get
# [12:01] <annevk> svn: Server sent unexpected return value (405 Method Not Allowed) in response to MKACTIVITY request for '/svn/!svn/act/cea8c09a-d6dc-4c98-821c-70215e3ba403'
# [12:01] <david_carlisle> annevk: v.nu still unhappy about normal forms
# [12:01] <david_carlisle> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Fmultipage%2Fnamed-character-references.html
# [12:02] <annevk> david_carlisle: oh
# [12:02] <annevk> I wonder how this goes wrong then
# [12:03] <annevk> parser maybe :(
# [12:03] <david_carlisle> annevk: I'd look but the office is shutting down around me, closing for some holiday or other
# [12:04] <annevk> heh
# [12:04] <annevk> guess I should study the input
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# [12:07] <annevk> so the input to the parser is ⟨
# [12:07] <jgraham> annevk: I think svn is telling you to use another version control system
# [12:08] <annevk> which yields ⟨
# [12:08] <annevk> which is correct
# [12:08] <annevk> so somehow that is mangled :(
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# [12:11] <annevk> why would those be mangled and nothing else?
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# [12:15] <annevk> oh, maybe because in Python they have some kind of meaning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket ?
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# [13:32] <foolip> annevk, did you fix it?
# [13:33] <annevk> no
# [13:33] <annevk> bug is here: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12539
# [13:38] <foolip> annevk, so was the problem that I forgot some file?
# [13:38] <foolip> and now you can't commit it?
# [13:39] <annevk> oh that was a different issue
# [13:39] <annevk> I tried to change spec-splitter.py to fix an issue and I could not commit my change to svn
# [13:39] <annevk> but my fix was not a fix so it doesn't really matter
# [13:39] <foolip> I don't think the SVN problem is my fault, it's Google code's SVN server, right?
# [13:40] <annevk> yeah
# [13:40] <annevk> could be my fault
# [13:41] <annevk> but I think I followed the instructions
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# [13:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: can we move http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/ to dvcs?
# [13:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think that's my last dev.w3.org draft now I quit CSS
# [13:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: saying goodbye to dev.w3.org would be nice
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# [14:16] <woef> could itemscope be implied when itemtype is added to an element?
# [14:17] <woef> microdata is quite verbose
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# [14:19] <jgraham> I believe that was tried when we did a user study with microdata and people found this design easier to comprehend
# [14:20] <jgraham> Even though it is clearly more verbose
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# [14:35] <webben> annevk: Who (if anyone) has taken over CSSOM work?
# [14:37] <annevk> glenn adams / shane stephens
# [14:37] <annevk> jgraham: woef: maybe we should do another study though
# [14:37] <annevk> this is a pretty consistent piece of feedback
# [14:39] <woef> Also (but this might be google's implementation) ... i don't seem to be able to nest itemprops
# [14:40] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-shadow-encoding-fun
# [14:40] <woef> <div itemprop="name"><span itemprop="givenName">Niels</span> <span itemprop="familyName">Matthijs</span></div>
# [14:40] <woef> This ain't working for Google.
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# [14:43] <wilhelm> I like how W3C stores my member password as plain text.
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# [14:50] <annevk> "congratulations your paper 8 - What XML can learn from HTML; also known as XML5 was accepted for XML Prague 2012 conference."
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# [14:51] <jgraham> You are throwing yourself to the wolves?
# [14:51] <annevk> seems I'm gonna explain XML5 one more time :)
# [14:53] <jgraham> wilhelm: Yeah, I never felt that "we failed web security 101" was a great advert for W3C's credentials to lead the web to it's full potential
# [14:54] <annevk> jgraham: I'm curious, mostly
# [14:55] <annevk> jgraham: they've been quite upset with us, so maybe it helps if they can yell at someone in person
# [14:55] <annevk> preferably over a nice Chech beer
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# [15:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/progress
# [15:11] <MikeSmith> didn't copy the spec over but can do that too if you want
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# [15:33] <Philip`> annevk: Do you know if the input to spec-splitter script says "&lang;" or "⟩"?
# [15:33] <Philip`> (or 27E8 or whatever)
# [15:34] <Philip`> I'd guess it's the former, and lxml is parsing into a U+9001, in which case maybe the most robust solution is for Hixie's scripts to generate the numeric code instead of the name
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# [15:37] <Philip`> Ah, single-page version says
# [15:37] <Philip`> <tr id=entity-LeftAngleBracket><td> <code title="">LeftAngleBracket;</code> </td> <td> U+027E8 </td> <td> <span class=glyph title="">&lang;</span> </td>
# [15:38] <Philip`> and similar when defining entity-lang
# [15:39] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah
# [15:39] <Philip`> The glyphs are explicitly non-normative but it still seems a bit circular to use &lang; in the spec's definition of &lang;
# [15:39] <MikeSmith> but I'm not sure using the numeric code will fix it
# [15:40] <Philip`> Why not?
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> I think I might have tried that already
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> dunno
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> that would certainly be the easiest fix though
# [15:40] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, there's no code that attempts any fancy normalisation or anything - the only way the U+9001 could get introduced is via lxml's entity table, probably
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> OK
# [15:41] <Philip`> (But I could be wrong)
# [15:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: How much does the spec-splitter depend on lxml?
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> well, easy enough to test
# [15:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: If not that much, you can probably get good enough perf with PyPy
# [15:41] <Philip`> annevk: Re 405 Method Not Allowed: Are you behind some kind of HTTP proxy? (They often dislike SVN's special HTTP methods)
# [15:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: It works with the html5lib parser, but I'm not aware of anything that can make html5lib magically go fast
# [15:43] <Philip`> though "good enough" just depends on whether whoever's running the script can spare the CPU time
# [15:43] <annevk> Philip`: it says the latter
# [15:43] <annevk> Philip`: ooh
# [15:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: PyPy is about twice the speed as CPython as parsing the spec, at least
# [15:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: Twice as fast as "extremely slow" is not fast :-(
# [15:43] <annevk> Philip`: http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/entities-unicode.inc suggests the latter
# [15:44] <annevk> Philip`: but it would make sense if it was &lang;
# [15:44] <annevk> Philip`: I mean given the historical mappings
# [15:44] <Philip`> Maybe something like Anolis outputs named entities instead?
# [15:44] <Philip`> (given that numeric input)
# [15:44] <Ms2ger> Probably
# [15:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: Dunno, it depends on what serializer you use
# [15:45] <gsnedders> IIRC html5lib does that
# [15:46] <annevk> html5.org does not have html5lib
# [15:46] <Philip`> Maybe the html5lib serializer shouldn't emit &lang;/&rang; since they're not backward compatible
# [15:46] <annevk> html5.org uses the default settings of spec-splitter
# [15:47] <Philip`> Who's running Anolis on the spec (before the spec-splitter sees it)?
# [15:47] <annevk> it uses etree.HTMLParser and etree.tostring
# [15:47] <annevk> good point
# [15:47] <annevk> that's jgraham
# [15:47] <annevk> maybe he's the culprit
# [15:48] <annevk> hadn't thought of that
# [15:48] <Philip`> If he can configure it to output numeric entities, that should minimise problems
# [15:48] <Philip`> (It's a problem for anybody using an old HTML parser on the single-page spec, as well as for the multi-page spec)
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# [15:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: It should be exposed as an option, so it's whatever URL Hixie uses
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# [15:51] <annevk> Philip`: on the other hand, the main spec does not have this problem? or does it?
# [15:52] <Philip`> annevk: The single-page spec says "&lang;" in it, so old parsers will parse into U+9001 or whatever it was
# [15:52] <Philip`> but validator.nu will parse it into the newer U+27E8 so it won't cause validation errors
# [15:53] <annevk> oh I see
# [15:53] <annevk> so jgraham needs to fix it then
# [15:53] <Philip`> Oh, I'm getting confused by decimals
# [15:53] <annevk> thanks Philip`
# [15:55] <Philip`> (U+2329, not U+9001)
# [15:55] <Philip`> (although I'm mixing up lang and rang anyway, but the details don't really matter)
# [15:55] <jgraham> Hmm, should I have been paying attention?
# [15:56] <Philip`> jgraham: Summary: Are you running the spec's Anolis? If so, can you make it emit numeric character references instead of named?
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# [15:58] <jgraham> Hmm, html5lib doesn't support that? So yes, but I guess html5lib needs a patch. Or that option needs to be exposed in anolis if it isn't already
# [15:58] * jgraham quite likes just using UTF8 really
# [15:59] <Philip`> UTF-8 will probably mess up diffs etc
# [16:00] <Philip`> Can't you use the html5lib serializer with resolve_entities=False ?
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# [16:00] <jgraham> Why would it mess up diffs?
# [16:00] <Ms2ger> resolve_entities=True|False?
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# [16:01] <annevk> jgraham: &lang; emits the wrong code point in a number of implementations
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# [16:01] <Philip`> Diffs get posted to mailing lists etc, and I wouldn't be surprised if something in the chain wasn't UTF-8-aware and messed it all up, so it's safer if the spec is purely ASCII
# [16:01] <annevk> jgraham: and since the input is not &lang; but a numeric character reference (which does work) it breaks down the line
# [16:01] <annevk> ooh
# [16:01] <annevk> personally I'm fine with UTF-8
# [16:02] <annevk> I changed multipage to UTF-8
# [16:02] <jgraham> Philip`: I'm pretty sure the Hixie approach is to do the right thing and say other people should fix their processors to deal with UTF8
# [16:02] <Philip`> Also, it's hard to visually read the diff between e.g. "〈 and "⟨", and easier if they're "&#....;" instead
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# [16:04] <Philip`> and it's hard to read HTML source that uses U+00A0 instead of " " etc
# [16:06] <annevk> anyone interested in becoming a manager on the +WHATWG page?
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# [16:08] <annevk> jgraham: given that Hixie usually writes ASCII-compatible documents, I wouldn't be so sure of that
# [16:10] <gsnedders> Hixie's position has been that ASCII-compatible documents are less hassle.
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# [16:11] <jgraham> Well it's not my fault if he has one standard for HTML and another for text
# [16:12] <jgraham> Anyway, resolve_entities might possibly be exposed in the HTTP frontend now
# [16:13] <annevk> jgraham: can you update https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12539 with status on this issue?
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# [16:17] <Philip`> jgraham: Does that mean Hixie needs to change how he calls it?
# [16:17] <annevk> WHATWG Blog has 6999 subscribers in Google Reader now
# [16:18] <Philip`> This spec-generation process seems to require cooperation between absurdly many people :-/
# [16:18] <Philip`> (including people like me who are rubbish at responding to bugmail or at getting around to doing anything in general, so it takes forever to fix trivial issues)
# [16:19] <annevk> I think your server is no longer used
# [16:19] <Ms2ger> Philip`, speaking of bugmail...
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# [16:19] <Ms2ger> Happen to have time for canvas?
# [16:19] <annevk> but it's still 3 distinct people which is a bit much
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# [16:24] <zewt> Philip`: your arguments against UTF-8 feel a bit contrived to me, FWIW
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# [16:25] <jgraham> Philip`: Well it isn't very clever and treats missing values as False due to the slightly retarded HTML form submission algorithm
# [16:26] <jgraham> So, I guess he will pick up the change next time he generates the spec
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# [16:26] <zewt> sure it's hard to tell similar-looking characters apart, but numeric references are essentially *impossible* to read at all, unless you happen to have a savant-level rote memorization ability
# [16:26] * jgraham feels kind of bad about just switching the default like that
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# [16:27] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Hmm, I suppose I no longer have the excuse of PhD-related work distracting me, though Christmas might be a sufficiently believable distraction
# [16:27] * Ms2ger glares towards Philip`
# [16:27] <jgraham> You could claim to be santa claus
# [16:27] <Ms2ger> And hand out test failures
# [16:28] <Philip`> I suppose it would be technically feasible to spend more time on canvas-related stuff and less time on witchering
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# [16:28] <jgraham> "witchering"?
# [16:30] <Philip`> http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/the_witcher
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# [16:37] <annevk> Ms2ger: I don't get https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/c3ae3775d5d3
# [16:38] <annevk> oh now I do
# [16:38] <Ms2ger> Yeah, it's awful
# [16:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: how is that first <style> element magically removed?
# [16:38] <Ms2ger> title + style
# [16:38] <Ms2ger> Because style can't have class in HTML4
# [16:39] <annevk> oh, but now it's HTML
# [16:39] <annevk> so maybe we kill that hack
# [16:39] <annevk> should kill*
# [16:39] <Ms2ger> Can we get away with that already?
# [16:40] <annevk> someone told me that changed, yes
# [16:40] <Ms2ger> That would certainly be nice
# [16:40] <annevk> I think it was shepazu and/or MikeSmith
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# [17:25] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [18:33] <EricInBNE> when do ppl expect postMessage to be finalised?
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# [18:34] <EricInBNE> Hixie, any thoughts?
# [18:36] <zewt> define "finalized"
# [18:37] <EricInBNE> zewt, like how websockets was just blessed. This url http://dev.w3.org/html5/postmsg/ implies it's a draft.
# [18:38] <EricInBNE> before websockets got the tick it seemed like there were quite a few changes
# [18:38] <zewt> i doubt postMessage will see backwards-incompatible changes, since it's deployed and in use, but it could see new features in the future, so it's not "finalized" per se--no web API is
# [18:39] <EricInBNE> ive written some postMessage code and it works in chrome but not firefox. I havent tested it in IE 10.
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# [18:39] <zewt> (also, which "postMessage"--there are different related APIs with that method name)
# [18:39] <zewt> window.postMessage? port.postMessage?
# [18:39] <EricInBNE> really?
# [18:40] <EricInBNE> yeah ive been using window.postMessage. what's port.postMessage?
# [18:40] <zewt> http://dev.w3.org/html5/postmsg/#channel-messaging
# [18:41] <EricInBNE> oh awesome. thats what i want
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# [18:41] <zewt> (i don't know the status of window.postMessage; i've only used ports, for workers)
# [18:42] <Ms2ger> <doron> html is garbage no matter what!
# [18:42] <zewt> okay?
# [18:42] <EricInBNE> zewt, so if the user opens two browser windows (say example.org and google.com) ports can pass messages even if their is no parent child relationship?
# [18:42] <zewt> you have to have a way to get a port from one to the other
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# [18:43] <zewt> for that, you're looking for cross-document messaging, not port messaging
# [18:43] <zewt> which it sounds like you've been using
# [18:44] <EricInBNE> zewt, yeah, ive been using window.open, but the popup blocker somewhat ruins the situation
# [18:44] <zewt> i havn't tried using it, but if you pastebin some code that works in one browser and not another, somebody might tell you why (the answer may simply be "stuff not yet implemented in some browser")
# [18:44] <EricInBNE> i imagine that is the case (not yet implemented)
# [18:45] <EricInBNE> caniuse.com should come with a guide - caniuse caniuse.com? (the answer would be a resounding no) v unreliable.
# [18:46] <zewt> apis generally are going to have subsets of implemented features you can use, and new features you probably can't yet, so it's not a simple API-wide yes or no once you get into the details
# [18:49] <zewt> (for example, iirc FF8 doesn't implement MessageChannel; you get the port messaging that's attached to workers, but you can't yet create new channels)
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# [20:53] * smaug____ is starting to think that sync APIs should be removed also from workers, just to keep APIs simple and consistent
# [20:54] <zewt> that'd defeat a major purpose of workers
# [20:54] <zewt> being able to write linear code
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# [20:54] <smaug____> not sure that is a major purpose of workers
# [20:55] <zewt> i am
# [20:55] <smaug____> the major purpose is to move stuff out from the main thread
# [20:55] <zewt> i did say "a"
# [20:55] <zewt> not "the"
# [20:55] * ap thinks that the nice (albeit nearly useless) idea of not adding new functionality to sync requests in document has been blown way, way out of proportion
# [20:55] <Ms2ger> ap, well, we care about a clean web
# [20:56] <zewt> doesn't seem useless to me
# [20:56] <ap> Ms2ger: there is step 2 missing between "disable" and "get a clean web", I'm afraid
# [20:56] <zewt> if it convinces people to not write sync code in the main thread when they otherwise would have
# [20:57] <zewt> i wouldn't call it a *huge* benefit, but it does seem like a win
# [20:57] <ap> people were making sync XHR 5 years ago, before there was CORS or responseType. They won't stop doing that because we remove CORS or responseType from sync requests now
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# [20:58] <ap> so yes, not supporting new features is nice, slightly helpful and cheap
# [20:58] <zewt> but if they want to use new features, they'll have to take a step back and notice that what they're doing is wrong
# [20:58] <smaug____> yeah, that is the point
# [20:58] <zewt> if they decide they'd rather make crappy pages, well, not much we can do about that in the end
# [21:00] <zewt> if it was a huge pain to implement then yeah it might not be worth it
# [21:00] <ap> wanting to support new features is more in library author domain. When you've been making your sync XHR request to your SAP server since the last ice age, you're not going to notice CORS
# [21:00] <ap> (and library authors don't appear to be in need of convincing)
# [21:00] <zewt> people who are using old APIs to do old things simply aren't affected either way; nothing we can do about them
# [21:01] <zewt> i just don't know what your objection is
# [21:01] <zewt> do you think it's hard to implement?
# [21:01] <zewt> the cost and the benefits seem about at par
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# [21:01] <ap> no, not very hard (although that's also a consideration)
# [21:02] <ap> I just don't want to take any risk of breaking existing content when the benefit is so tiny and unlikely to materialize
# [21:02] <zewt> i wonder if snipy webkit guy is going to clarify what he means by calling me "self-conflicted". heh
# [21:02] <ap> what jQuery already did appears to be an order of magnitude more important than what engines can achieve
# [21:02] <ap> "self-conflicted"?
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# [21:05] * ap assumes that there is another snipy webkit guy somewhere, and this comment wasn't about himself :)
# [21:05] <zewt> not you :)
# [21:06] <zewt> (sorry, I don't really know who you are :)
# [21:06] <smaug____> ap: benefits of getting rid of sync XHR small?
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# [21:06] <smaug____> well, ofc these are the first steps
# [21:06] <Ms2ger> zewt, meet Alexey Proskuryakov, other snipy webkit guy :)
# [21:06] <ap> zewt: I'm the guy who intends to prevent disabling already shipping sync XHR functionality in WebKit
# [21:07] <smaug____> I hope we could start adding warnings about using sync xhr in window context
# [21:07] <zewt> (FYI: i do make the allowance that everyone's allowed to be snipy once in a while, for the selfish reason that it allows me to be from time to time)
# [21:07] <Ms2ger> *Intends to stop any attempts to improve the web
# [21:07] <smaug____> and then finally, maybe in one or two years, get rid of it
# [21:07] <Ms2ger> ftfy
# [21:07] <smaug____> we're trying to get rid of other bad APIs
# [21:07] <ap> smaug____: that's what I allude to by saying that I don't see step 2. Warning for every use seem meaningful, but then I don't see how disabling withCredentials helps
# [21:07] <smaug____> (like Attrs as Nodes)
# [21:08] <zewt> smaug____: it'd be nice, but if there was a betting pool I'd put my money squarely on the other side
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# [21:08] <zewt> ("good luck, but I doubt it")
# [21:08] <smaug____> also, we're trying to get rid of Mutation events
# [21:08] <smaug____> they are used surprisingly often
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# [21:09] <ap> smaug____: as far as Attrs as nodes are concerned - did someone come up with a plan for XPath?
# [21:09] <smaug____> Ms2ger: ^^
# [21:10] <smaug____> though, I'm not sure why you'd need Attrs as nodes for XPath
# [21:10] <smaug____> are there some common use cases ?
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# [21:11] <TabAtkins> Xpath needs attrs as "nodes" for its selection model. They dont' need to be real Nodes, though, in the DOM sense.
# [21:11] <TabAtkins> They just need to be on equal footing with elements and namespaces in the XPath data model.
# [21:12] <ap> smaug____: XPath can return found attributes as nodes. If the plan is to filter those out from result node set before exposing it to a JavaScript caller, that's a valid plan that can be investigated
# [21:13] <ap> smaug____: as TabAtkins explains, XPath totally needs to treat attributes on equal footing with other nodes internally, but that doesn't really affect whether we can get rid of Attr in DOM
# [21:14] <smaug____> yes, that is what I was saying. I don't know why Attrs would need to be nodes for XPath
# [21:14] <smaug____> need to change some APIs though
# [21:14] <smaug____> to support both Nodes and Attrs
# [21:14] <ap> smaug____: I can easily suggest some use cases, but I don't know if they are actually encountered in real life
# [21:15] <ap> smaug____: e.g. change all "class=foo" attributes in a subtree to "class=bar"
# [21:15] <ap> smaug____: XPath will find them for you, and you'll iterate
# [21:16] <ap> smaug____: in addition to filtering attributes out, another plan is to return non-homogenous node sets, having both node and non-node objects. I don't think that I like this option
# [21:18] <TabAtkins> ap: Of course, you can also use XPath to return the *elements* with those attributes, then iterate and change them. (Or use Selectors to do the same.)
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# [21:20] <ap> TabAtkins: that's somewhat less efficient, but probably negligibly so. Arguably more complicated for authors, too
# [21:21] <ap> TabAtkins: it's hard to find _any_ use case for XPath that couldn't be served by Selectors pretty much as well :)
# [21:21] <TabAtkins> Yes, it's slightly more complicated in XPath to write such a query.
# [21:21] <annevk> authors never ever deal with Attr nodes
# [21:21] <ap> TabAtkins: same goes in opposite direction too
# [21:21] <annevk> so I'm not sure if they suddenly have to deal with them it'd be simpler
# [21:21] <TabAtkins> Agreed on Selectors/XPath equivalency. I recall writing a thread to that effect. ^_^
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# [21:22] <smaug____> ap: selectors don't handle textnodes
# [21:23] <ap> smaug____: good point
# [21:23] <TabAtkins> ...yet
# [21:23] <TabAtkins> (Probably never, for CSS's subset of Selectors. But there's no good reason to disallow it from JS's Selectors.)
# [21:24] <ap> Need to run an errand now. Thanks everyone for a useful discussion!
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# [21:25] <ap> annevk: (one last notice - may I use your comment that "authors never ever deal with Attr nodes" as an argument against removing them? ;-) )
# [21:26] <Ms2ger> No
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# [21:26] <Ms2ger> Only as one in favour
# [21:26] <annevk> heh, I guess I meant they shouldn't have to deal with them; some probably do anyway because they are there and well, look, features
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# [21:26] <annevk> like Facebook was using them, but not because they had a reason
# [21:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: btw, having include support in Anolis
# [21:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: like  would be sweet
# [21:28] <Ms2ger> It would
# [21:28] <Ms2ger> Does html5lib support fragment parsing?
# [21:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: I generate some stuff for the Encoding Standard and end op copy and pasting things
# [21:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'd be happy with a pre-processing step
# [21:29] <annevk> but I think it implements that, yes
# [21:29] <Ms2ger> Then it shouldn't be too hard
# [21:30] <annevk> I'm changing the way I deal with undefined code points
# [21:30] <Ms2ger> I'll get to it at some point, I guess
# [21:30] <annevk> set them to null rather than U+FFFD
# [21:30] <annevk> also makes more sense when you want to encode using a legacy encoding
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# [21:36] <zewt> annevk: what happens if a UA wants to suspend scripts when backgrounded (mobile), but keep XHR downloads going? wouldn't that cause tons of onprogress events to back up in the event queue? can't find any sort of "progress events might be delayed arbitrarily by the browser" escape clause that allows not doing that
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# [21:38] <annevk> hardware limitation?
# [21:39] <zewt> battery
# [21:40] <zewt> i'd think it would be better to allow this explicitly than force browsers to use that particular clause...
# [21:40] <kennyluck> are browses following per 50ms by the way?
# [21:41] <zewt> for example, perhaps say that when a new progress event task is queued, any progress event tasks still in the queue on the same object are removed
# [21:41] <zewt> that would also have the nice property (i think) that if an onprogress takes too long, they'll never back up more than one deep
# [21:41] <zewt> (well, at least for a single XHR)
# [21:45] <jgraham> That sounds good to me
# [21:45] <jgraham> Aslo, I seem to be writing perl again
# [21:45] <jgraham> Where id my life go wrong :(
# [21:45] <jgraham> *did
# [21:46] <Ms2ger> jgraham, interested in a job at Mozilla? We hate perl as well :)
# [21:46] <zewt> i hate perl, php, java and ruby, do I get to be the boss
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# [21:48] <jgraham> Heh
# [21:48] * jgraham is just glad it isn't Pike
# [21:49] <jgraham> (although strictly speaking it isn't clear which is worse)
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# [21:50] <jgraham> That's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_%28programming_language%29 in case you aren't a scholar of obscure Swedish programming languages
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# [21:51] <zewt> there are lots of really bad, really obscure languages; i save my energy for hating the really bad languages that I actually have to deal with now and again :P
# [21:52] <jgraham> So do I :(
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# [21:54] <jgraham> Note to future self: if you ever think "hey I could store this structured data as a blob of text and process it in an adhoc way using regexps", don't.
# [21:55] <jgraham> (for posterity, I point out that I didn't do that this time either)
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# [22:05] <annevk> zewt: send email I guess
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# [22:06] <Ms2ger> jgraham, HTML?
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# [22:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: the tables now omit bytes that map to U+FFFD
# [22:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: might be better
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# [22:17] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No, key-value pairs, basically. I wouldn't mind if it was parsed with regexp once into a data structure of some sort. But it isn't; the big blob of text is stored and every time some data is needed, it's out with the regexp
# [22:18] <Ms2ger> Nice
# [22:18] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: html5lib has fragment parsing support
# [22:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Pike isn't bad. It just has horrible debug tools.
# [22:19] <annevk> I guess I should also link to the tables from the spec
# [22:19] <annevk> oh well, later
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# [22:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: And three different values of zero
# [22:30] <jgraham> Also, the last person I heard say "Pike isn't so bad" then used it for two *more* weeks and hated it passionately
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# [22:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Gerald always claimed the language wasn't so bad, just the tools.
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# [22:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: See if Kevin agrees :)
# [22:39] <gsnedders> Man, I should come to Lkpg sometime and see people again.
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# [22:55] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, "Strunk & White? More like Bunk & Trite, amirite?"
# [22:56] <Ms2ger> As long as you don't start about Strunk/White
# [22:57] <TabAtkins> Nothing wrong with literary slash.
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# [23:12] <TabAtkins> matijsb: I've totally borked the css-commits RSS feed. I've got all the necessary data to regenerate it properly, but it'll take some time (and testing) to make sure it's all correct.
# [23:12] <TabAtkins> So it may be a good idea to turn off your @csscommits script until you can be sure you're not going to attempt to send a thousand tweets at once.
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# [23:13] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Is that "literary slash" as in "Fan fiction in which Strunk/White hook up"?
# [23:14] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> What else would it be?
# [23:15] <jgraham> Who knows the depths of depravity to which the human mind might sink
# [23:16] <Ms2ger> s/human/TabAtkins/
# [23:16] <jgraham> Also, that genre of book in general, and Strunk & White in particular, is known to be, to use the technical term, utter bollocks
# [23:16] <jamesr_> oh? how so?
# [23:18] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: Most of it is, to be blunt, made up bullshit based on their own predilections and their hardons for Latin.
# [23:18] <jgraham> The advice generally assumes a prescriptionist model of grammar which doesn't match that of modern linguists.
# [23:18] <jgraham> And S/W has advice that is both contradicatory or, as TabAtkins didn't put it, wrong
# [23:19] <jgraham> s/or/and/
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# [23:19] <jgraham> http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497 for example
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# [23:20] <zewt> jgraham: prescriptionist grammar also doesn't match ... common sense
# [23:21] <zewt> if i see one more stupid sentence twisted around like a pretzel because some clueless elementary teacher brainwashed YOU CAN'T PUT PREPOSITIONS AT THE END OF A SENTENCE into someone's head
# [23:21] <TabAtkins> That's the kind of nonsense up with which I'll not put!
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# [23:22] <jgraham> (TabAtkins now sounds like Dr Seuss)
# [23:22] <TabAtkins> But I avoid a final preposition!
# [23:22] <TabAtkins> (Or rather, Imaginary Churchill did.)
# [23:24] * dglazkov is now convinced that the Big Bang Theory show was conceived as a result of observing #whatwg discussions.
# [23:25] <zewt> (i havn't seen that show, so I can't tell if that's complimentary, backhanded-complimentary or derogatory)
# [23:25] <zewt> (or perhaps it depends on one's opinion of the show)
# [23:26] <dglazkov> does it have to be any of those? Can it be just a musing?
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# [23:26] <zewt> prohibited!
# [23:26] <Ms2ger> Objection, your honour! Alleged prohibition!
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# [23:28] <jgraham> zewt: Well it would suggest that we were all rather bright, except for the most prominent female. It would also suggest we had surprisingly active social lives given our supposed characters
# [23:29] <zewt> if we're on a tv show, does that mean we're all unusually good looking, too?
# [23:29] <jgraham> OTOH I assume that dglazkov is really refering to the need for a "SARCASM" sign
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# [23:31] <jgraham> (I guess in defense of BBT, I should say that many of the other female characters are at least the intellectual equals of the boys)
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> Yes, virtually every major character besides Penny, male or female, is a roughly-equivalent genius.
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Ah, I should have realized that article would be written by one of the Language Log regulars.
# [23:34] * jgraham hasn't actually seen season 4 but never understood how one was supposed to understand Bernadette.
# [23:34] <zewt> can we all be on TV-show-actor salaries, too?
# [23:35] <dglazkov> jgraham: don't spoil it! I am on season 2 at the moment.
# [23:35] <annevk> dglazkov: me too!
# [23:35] <zewt> spoiler: the show doesn't end with the big crunch
# [23:35] <TabAtkins> I think me three, too.
# [23:35] <TabAtkins> zewt: Big Rip, or just heat death?
# [23:36] <TabAtkins> Or *gasp* steady-state?
# [23:36] <zewt> make a Choose Your Own Galaxy End-game Adventure out of it
# [23:36] <jgraham> Isn't the steady state ending what The Simpsons has achieved
# [23:36] <jgraham> You just keep churning out mostly indistigguishable episodes for an indefinite amount of time?
# [23:37] <zewt> don't they just have an episode-generating machine by now?
# [23:37] <zewt> with a big red lever, of course
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# [23:40] <TabAtkins> I actually wouldn't put it past BBT to go steady-state. Have Sheldon invent a time-machine, and stumble into one of the previous episodes in a believable way.
# [23:40] <TabAtkins> Perhaps the one with a time machine.
# [23:41] <zewt> invent a time machine and travel to another episode that also has a time machine? that seems a recipe for an unpleasant loop
# [23:41] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's the point.
# [23:41] <zewt> mobius tv
# [23:42] <TabAtkins> It turns a series finale into just another episode of the infinite show.
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# [23:55] <matijsb> TabAtkins: I'm sure you mean matjas :)
# [23:55] * matijsb matjas: what TabAtkins said :)
# [23:55] <matijsb> (fkin cmd-enter)
# [23:57] <TabAtkins> Dammit, people. Get more different names!
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# Session Close: Thu Dec 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)