/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 23 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:12] <BenoitRen> Okay, comment posted. Bye!
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  9. # [00:18] <dglazkov> what's the hottest multi-player game nowadays
  10. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> WOW
  11. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Still.
  12. # [00:19] * bga want img { tabIndex: 0 } for usercss
  13. # [00:20] <dglazkov> excellent
  14. # [00:20] * dglazkov aims to be the first to mention WoW in a spec
  15. # [00:20] <bga> for selecting images w/o mouse in opera
  16. # [00:20] <heycam> dglazkov, http://www.wowwiki.com/Shadow_priest
  17. # [00:20] <bga> ok dglazkov :)
  18. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> bga: nav-index (not well-implemented)
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  20. # [00:24] <bga> thanks
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  22. # [00:26] <bga> TabAtkins btw is still no plans to include better UI into html. is still css apearence and emulating using plain html?
  23. # [00:26] <bga> XUL will be nice
  24. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> bga: I don't understand what you're asking.
  25. # [00:27] <bga> native UI
  26. # [00:27] <bga> sorry
  27. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> I still don't understand the question. Can you rephrase it?
  28. # [00:28] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  29. # [00:28] <bga> TabAtkins current way is emulate tabs using plain html and css apearance property
  30. # [00:29] <bga> via <ul> <li> for example
  31. # [00:29] <bga> understand?
  32. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  33. # [00:30] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  34. # [00:30] <bga> css way is good but forse authors reinvent wheel is bad
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  36. # [00:34] <bga> TabAtkins and when we will get <tabs> <tab> <tree-item> <vsplit> <hsplit> etc ? :)
  37. # [00:35] <bga> and <grid> of course
  38. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Never, because CSS is the proper layer for that.
  39. # [00:35] <bga> :(
  40. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> In some cases, we can use CSS to make it easy to do those kinds of UI things.
  41. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Flexbox makes tabs easier. Grid Layout does grids. Lists 4 might handle tree lists. No clue yet how to handle splitters (especially resizable splitters), but it's something I want to think about at some point.
  42. # [00:36] <bga> => extjs will live and other 1000 ui libs
  43. # [00:37] <bga> TabAtkins but its swing way. bad way. slow way
  44. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> I don't understand why it's bad or slow.
  45. # [00:38] <bga> 'i can paint pixels, ok, i can make ui!'
  46. # [00:39] <bga> TabAtkins as author i want just write <tabs> in html. NET, XUL, QT gives me this ability
  47. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> bga: None of those are the web, with the web's particular separation of concerns.
  48. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Rarely, it makes sense to add UI paradigms into HTML - look at <details>, which was a great addition.
  49. # [00:41] <bga> TabAtkins ok, you split webapp and webpage
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  51. # [00:41] <bga> webapp need ui stuff
  52. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Which is why I'm working on stuff that helps webapps build UI.
  53. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Like Flexbox.
  54. # [00:42] <bga> build from scratch each time
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  57. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> That's fine. Webapps dont' actually want native OS styles.
  58. # [00:43] <kennyluck> Is Firefox gradually deprecating XUL?
  59. # [00:43] <zewt> TabAtkins: who knows if they don't want it, since there's no way to get it, heh
  60. # [00:44] <bga> TabAtkins thats is not fine. user want native look of ui
  61. # [00:44] <zewt> practically speaking, it's very difficult to get native-behaving OS widgets generically
  62. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> zewt: Asking people, and also noting that almost no one attempts to emulate OS styles with CSS.
  63. # [00:44] <zewt> (in a cross-platform way)
  64. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Plus lots of people use appearance:none and styles to make the few controls that *are* OS-native look different.
  65. # [00:45] <zewt> TabAtkins: well, it's hard, and anything short of near-perfect emulation is ugly and embarrassing
  66. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> bga: If we give authors something that they dont' want, they won't use it.
  67. # [00:45] <zewt> native-looking widgets floating in the middle of non-native stuff look out of place
  68. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  69. # [00:45] <hober> beware the uncanny valley
  70. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> In some cases it's worth it (like getting a single consistent datepicker from <input type=date>, or consistent controls from <video>) but usually authors want to theme it with their website.
  71. # [00:46] <zewt> realistically speaking, whatever the initial reasons, people are definitely now in the habit of making their own custom UIs, so it's probably too late to change the momentum, even if they would have gone for it at one point
  72. # [00:46] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  73. # [00:47] <bga> heh
  74. # [00:47] * Quits: Morphous_ (jan@f049162163.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  75. # [00:48] <bga> chaos of themes. each app has own theme. hell
  76. # [00:48] <bga> but ok
  77. # [00:48] <zewt> theme != ui
  78. # [00:48] <bga> i still can write usercss
  79. # [00:48] <bga> :)
  80. # [00:48] <zewt> in lynx?
  81. # [00:49] <bga> :)
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  83. # [00:55] <dglazkov> re: WoW, done: dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/rev/a3e6d321e899
  84. # [00:55] <dglazkov> probably easier to read here: dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#shadow-dom-example
  85. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: You realize that <a href="example.com/stories/1"> does not make a link to example.com, right?
  86. # [00:57] <dglazkov> dur
  87. # [00:57] <dglazkov> lemme fix
  88. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Use the protocol-relative url!
  89. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> //example.com
  90. # [00:58] <dglazkov> too clever
  91. # [00:58] <dglazkov> :)
  92. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> More people need to know about this.
  93. # [00:58] <dglazkov> alright
  94. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Also, ugh, you capitalize your color keywords? SO UGLY
  95. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  96. # [00:59] <dglazkov> it's not me, it's bob
  97. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> I hate Bob.
  98. # [01:00] <dglazkov> well, he's at a comiccon, you should tell him that when he comes bacck
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  187. # [05:38] <kennyluck> there's been no mail for two days on www-style. That made me think I was kicked off the list.
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  243. # [09:50] <zcorpan> dglazkov: bob made two links to the same article
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  245. # [09:52] <zcorpan> dglazkov: also, the <pre>s have pretty small font i think
  246. # [09:54] <zcorpan> dglazkov: imho, the reference to WoW should be a lot more subtle, such that only actual WoW players would get the reference
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  250. # [10:15] <erlehmann> zcorpan, which reference?
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  252. # [10:21] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  253. # [10:22] <zcorpan> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20111223#l-84
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  277. # [12:46] <annevk> fwiw, the WebKit bug on removing document.charset / defaultCharset was wontfixed suggesting I file a bug on removing document.defaultCharset
  278. # [12:46] <annevk> not sure I'm gonna file those bugs anymore
  279. # [13:02] <annevk> heycam|away: there's no undefined in IDL?
  280. # [13:02] <annevk> heycam|away: because then I could write DOMString or undefined
  281. # [13:06] <Ms2ger> No
  282. # [13:07] <annevk> meh
  283. # [13:07] <annevk> I'm not even sure if undefined is handled the same way for open() everywhere
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  289. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> * gavin thought OMG IDL was a joke
  290. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> <shaver> gavin: in some ways, it is
  291. # [13:21] <annevk> hehe
  292. # [13:21] <annevk> most certainly
  293. # [13:21] <annevk> also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4zEAPZxtBA
  294. # [13:21] <annevk> highly relevant
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  298. # [13:35] <annevk> ah http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/ucvja/nsJapaneseToUnicode.cpp#174
  299. # [13:35] <annevk> that pretty much matches my testing
  300. # [13:35] <annevk> but no rationale
  301. # [13:35] <annevk> (Opera always consumes both)
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  304. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> annevk, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690225, which I can't access
  305. # [13:42] <annevk> same here, I'm not in the secret club
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  308. # [13:45] <smaug____> why is bug 690225 still closed :/
  309. # [13:48] <annevk> there's a similar bug for EUC-JP https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563618
  310. # [13:48] <annevk> but the changes all seem kind of sketchy
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  313. # [13:49] <smaug____> bug 690225 is not a crasher
  314. # [13:50] <Ms2ger> 3.6?
  315. # [13:50] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25037 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64235 seem like the actual culprits
  316. # [13:50] <smaug____> Ms2ger: what is the latest 3.6. the bug has .24-fixed
  317. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> .25
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  320. # [13:52] <annevk> so Gecko had sensible error handling and then had to change that :(
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  326. # [14:11] <freechelmimi> Ping hsivonen
  327. # [14:12] <freechelmimi> Was reading the great http://webm.html5.org
  328. # [14:12] <freechelmimi> I think for IE 678
  329. # [14:12] <freechelmimi> We could tell users to install chromeFrame
  330. # [14:13] <freechelmimi> as it even works without admin rights
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  332. # [14:23] <ernini> with chrome frame that site still reports that the browser doesn't support it
  333. # [14:23] <freechelmimi> ernini: Does it ? we should modify it then
  334. # [14:24] <freechelmimi> Are you sure chrome frame is used ?
  335. # [14:24] <ernini> yeh just installed it, restarted the browser
  336. # [14:24] <freechelmimi> because the javascript webm support test should succeed
  337. # [14:24] <freechelmimi> Let me test
  338. # [14:26] <freechelmimi> You're right ernini
  339. # [14:26] <freechelmimi> ha ok , I'm dumb :-)
  340. # [14:27] <freechelmimi> yeah the website has to force whrome Frame usage
  341. # [14:27] <freechelmimi> So it's quite tricky to say actually that installing chrome frame is gonna make IE6 playing webm
  342. # [14:27] <freechelmimi> But I'll force my users anyway :-)
  343. # [14:28] <freechelmimi> hsivonen: forget my proposal for now then ....
  344. # [14:30] <ernini> freechelmimi: oke cool :)
  345. # [14:30] <ernini> was just thinking of adding google chrome frame in our winxp base image
  346. # [14:31] <ernini> so was kinda testing with that page :D
  347. # [14:31] <freechelmimi> It's a great idea to integrate chrome frame
  348. # [14:31] <freechelmimi> and activate it for specific intranet pages for exemple
  349. # [14:32] <freechelmimi> like youtube did
  350. # [14:32] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  351. # [14:32] <ernini> yeh got some intranet sites that won't with google chrome, so only needs to be used when tested with
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  354. # [14:37] <ernini> but now i see indeed that only sites that explicitly opt-in will use it
  355. # [14:37] <ernini> so thats good
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  399. # [16:26] <Huvet> Hi! Can i request a new PyPi release?
  400. # [16:27] <annevk> probably not here
  401. # [16:27] <Huvet> ah, html5lib.
  402. # [16:28] <Huvet> important info :)
  403. # [16:28] <Huvet> It's a mess installing from source, and this bug is blocking: normal usage of it: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=138&q=etree
  404. # [16:28] <annevk> I think the problem with releasing it is that trunk does not pass all the tests
  405. # [16:28] <annevk> jgraham / gsnedders might know more
  406. # [16:31] <Huvet> also, the wiki seems down: http://wiki.whatwg.org/
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  454. # [20:11] <gsnedders> Huvet: Eh, yeah, jgraham should do that.
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  487. # [22:24] <annevk> so godaddy just reversed their position (somewhat)
  488. # [22:24] <annevk> wikipedia still gonna move?
  489. # [22:26] <zewt> not fickle at all
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  496. # [22:36] <annevk> dropping a paypal account is btw incredibly hard
  497. # [22:36] * Quits: danielfilho (~daniel@187.31.77.7) (Quit: </html>)
  498. # [22:36] <annevk> there were about four confirmation screens after I found the tiny link in submenu of submenu etc.
  499. # [22:37] <annevk> searching for "opzeggen" / "afmelden" / "annuleren" on the Dutch paypal site yields no results
  500. # [22:37] <annevk> had to search on Google first to find another site to tell me how to go about it
  501. # [22:40] <zewt> not as bad as godaddy's autorenewal evil, heh
  502. # [22:41] <zewt> they'll automatically bill you full price to renew ssl certs by default, without telling you in advance (except i assume buried in some 100-page "agreement", which doesn't qualify)
  503. # [22:42] <gsnedders> But they are one of the few domains registers that allowed me to renew a domain while not in the same country as my credit card is registered to.
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  515. # [23:27] <zewt> gross, html mail that sets the whole thing as background-color: #FFFFFF
  516. # [23:27] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  517. # [23:28] <zewt> the amount of eyes-clenched-shut-nobody-does-things-in-any-other-way-but-ours in software development is still staggering, even today
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  520. # [23:30] <Lirodon> Hixie, oh good. phpbb 3. finally :>
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  535. # Session Close: Sat Dec 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)