/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 26 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  37. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents/mpeg-04/part29/WVC.zip
  38. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> the "WebVC" profile of H.264 that Apple and Cisco and others want to make royalty-free
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  40. # [05:01] <zewt> zero confidence in anything "free" related to the MPEG-LA
  41. # [05:03] <zewt> the *most* benign motive i can think of for them doing anything like that is keeping more resources from going into genuinely-free competing tech
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  45. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah
  46. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> as Rob Glidden has put it, "It seems every few months a patent pool or some one manages to spin up wishful thinking that there will soon be a “new deal” that will answer the needs of royalty free communities, only to cleverly leave the hopeful twisting in the wind."
  47. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> but WebVC is a bit different in that it's not an effort from MPEG overall, but instead a proposal from Apple and others that they are trying to convince the other MPEG members to make royalty free
  48. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> so it seems good that they are trying at least
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  56. # [05:55] <zewt> doesn't seem terribly good that they're trying to arrange for the web to use a format that's "free" in some particular (presumably limited profile) state, whose other features and future development have no promise of following suit
  57. # [05:56] <zewt> (call me cynical; with anything involving organizations like the MPEG-LA, it's usually the safest default)
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  97. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> anybody aware of Selectors API test suites other than http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/ and http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/ ?
  98. # [11:51] <annevk> Gecko removed support for UTF-32 right? I wonder why it's still in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/intl/uconv/src/charsetalias.properties
  99. # [11:53] <annevk> Quite a few cases in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/intl/uconv/src/charsetalias.properties have uppercase characters in the key
  100. # [11:53] <annevk> e.g. "csMacintosh" and "csIBM864"...
  101. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> Those may be bugs, actually
  102. # [11:55] <Ms2ger> Or not
  103. # [11:55] <annevk> At some point bugs become features :)
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  105. # [11:56] <annevk> Gecko also still has the three Thai encodings as distinct
  106. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> I thought I remembered that those weren't picked up, but I don't find code to back that up
  107. # [11:57] <annevk> I believe that's true
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  109. # [11:58] <annevk> aah https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=235090
  110. # [11:59] <annevk> UTF-16 is as recent as 2004
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  113. # [11:59] <annevk> well part of it
  114. # [11:59] <annevk> I guess back then there still was a chance to get rid of it
  115. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: do you know of XHR test suite other than http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/ ?
  116. # [12:02] <annevk> the CORS tests uploaded recently have XHR tests in them
  117. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> uploaded to where?
  118. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> dvcs?
  119. # [12:02] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webappsec/
  120. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> hai
  121. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  136. # [13:04] <annevk> never really thought about this http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/nqerr/i_am_a_totally_blind_redditer/c3b6z7a that's kind of a major fail
  137. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: does anybody support the From-Origin header yet?
  138. # [13:08] <annevk> don't think so
  139. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> k
  140. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> know if there are any test suites for data URL support?
  141. # [13:10] <annevk> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/data/
  142. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  181. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> hmm, seeing some odd behavior with http://platform.html5.org/ in Opera
  182. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> try any of the links after the Server-Sent Events ones
  183. # [16:13] <annevk> works here...
  184. # [16:14] <annevk> ooh
  185. # [16:14] <annevk> a bit further on I do notice something odd
  186. # [16:14] <smaug____> Hixie: ping
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  212. # [19:06] <zewt> wow. firefox with the single worst browser slogan I've ever seen: "Different by Design"
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  217. # [19:20] <zewt> heh ff9 fullscreen api is seriously buggy ... no wonder it's disabled by default (but they shouldn't have mentioned it in the changelog)
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  240. # [21:07] <Yuhong> I wonder about how much of the CSS2 recommendation from 1998 turned out to be implementable.
  241. # [21:08] <gsnedders> I don't there was that much that was, if only because it is so vague.
  242. # [21:08] <gsnedders> The vagueness leads to contradictions in edge-cases, though, to be fair.
  243. # [21:09] <Yuhong> Can anyone estimate a percentage?
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  247. # [21:43] <tantek> Yuhong, Gsnedders, most of it was implementable.
  248. # [21:44] <tantek> even if vague
  249. # [21:45] <Yuhong> tantek: Yea, text-shadow in particular was I read implemented by Tasman, while it is only IE10 that finally implemented it in Trident.
  250. # [21:45] <tantek> gsnedders, on the contrary, vagueness leads to being able to resolve apparent contradictions by selective interpretation of said vagueness.
  251. # [21:45] <tantek> It's excessive precision (duplicated across sections/chapters) that lead to most contradictions.
  252. # [21:45] <gsnedders> tantek: Yeah, I know
  253. # [21:45] <Yuhong> tantek: I bitched in Chris Wilson's blog about Tasman not being ported to Windows. You worked at MS doing it, right?
  254. # [21:46] <tantek> Yuhong, yes, I was the dev lead for Tasman
  255. # [21:46] <gsnedders> I was under the impression that Tasman was ported to Windows, albeit never shipped
  256. # [21:46] <tantek> gsnedders, that's right.
  257. # [21:46] <annevk> what's the difference between http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/src/ and http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/intl/uconv/src/
  258. # [21:46] <gsnedders> tantek: Not for IE, though, right?
  259. # [21:46] <tantek> and ported to numerous other OS's/processors (mostly embedded systems like set top boxes etc.)
  260. # [21:47] <gsnedders> tantek: Or was it intented that IE would use it eventually?
  261. # [21:47] <tantek> gsnedders - there was a Win32 Tasman Shell that ran the Tasman engine.
  262. # [21:47] <tantek> There was a possibility of using Tasman to do XHTML rendering.
  263. # [21:47] <tantek> But then it turned out that XHTML didn't matter.
  264. # [21:47] <Yuhong> tantek: Has hooking Tasman via X-UA-Compatible been considered?
  265. # [21:48] <tantek> Yuhong, since the latter years of the 2000s, browser engines long since eclipsed Tasman.
  266. # [21:49] <Yuhong> tantek: But it might have a good starting point. I know it is too late for it now though.
  267. # [21:49] <tantek> except perhaps in size/speed (we got it down to being smaller than Opera, less memory requirements, and much faster)
  268. # [21:50] <Ms2ger`> annevk, the latter is Firefox 3.0
  269. # [21:50] <gsnedders> tantek: How many people did you have working on it the time of IE/Mac's cancelation?
  270. # [21:51] <Yuhong> tantek: But what about back in 2007-2008?
  271. # [21:51] <Yuhong> tantek: When X-UA-Compatible was being considered during IE8 development.
  272. # [21:52] <gsnedders> I doubt Tasman would be a better base than Trident as-of-IE8 for what has been implemented CSS-wise in IE9/10.
  273. # [21:53] <gsnedders> IE8 gave them a layout engine that's probably a decent advantage over everyone else for a lot of the more radical CSS3 modules.
  274. # [21:53] <Yuhong> gsnedders: I know by the time of IE9 it was too late, but I am talking about during *IE8* development.
  275. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Yuhong: I expect regardless of choice of Trident/Tasman you're gonna have to rewrite a lot of it for make up for years of non-development.
  276. # [21:54] <gsnedders> When you're rewriting it, it won't make much difference as to which you choose.
  277. # [21:59] <Yuhong> gsnedders: but note for example Tasman already implemented XHTML, while IE8 didn't.
  278. # [22:00] <Yuhong> gsnedders: And IE6/7 lack of support for XHTML was already bad enough.
  279. # [22:01] <gsnedders> True, but plenty of people don't view lack of XHTML support as a major concern.
  280. # [22:01] <gsnedders> (Though I was led to believe Trident had major architectural issues that made it difficult)
  281. # [22:05] <annevk> Ms2ger`: interesting, so where did charsetalias.properties move?
  282. # [22:08] <annevk> Ms2ger`: is that http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/src/nsUConvModule.cpp now?
  283. # [22:08] <Ms2ger`> intl/locale/src/charsetalias.properties
  284. # [22:08] <Ms2ger`> (Bug 637599)
  285. # [22:09] <Yuhong> So can anyone estimate the percentage of CSS2 recommendation that was implementable?
  286. # [22:09] <Yuhong> So can anyone estimate the percentage of the CSS2 recommendation from 1998 that was implementable?
  287. # [22:09] <Ms2ger`> Sure
  288. # [22:09] <Ms2ger`> About 142%, I'd say
  289. # [22:13] <annevk> thanks Ms2ger`
  290. # [22:14] <annevk> Ms2ger`: that file looks more reasonable than the one I have been looking at
  291. # [22:14] <Ms2ger`> Np
  292. # [22:17] <Yuhong> gsnedders: Yea, IE9 had to rewrite the XML support.
  293. # [22:17] <Yuhong> gsnedders: Before IE9, XML parsing in IE used the external MSXML library.
  294. # [22:18] <Yuhong> (in IE6 and later, MSXML3)
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  298. # [22:43] <Yuhong> I wonder if there is a way to fool sites into thinking that document.all exists.
  299. # [22:43] <Yuhong> I wonder if there is a way to fool sites into thinking that document.all exists in Mozilla.
  300. # [22:45] <Yuhong> (I want to play with this: http://grox.net/doc/web/javascript/dynduo/)
  301. # [22:46] <Yuhong> Funny thing that Mozilla only now is completing their support for the IE4 DOM.
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The end :)