/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-03 / end

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  101. # [08:34] <zcorpan> annevk: it looks weird to mix decimal and hex
  102. # [08:36] <zcorpan> annevk: also, editorial, &minus; looks better than -
  103. # [08:42] <zcorpan> do we need to have serializers for all encodings?
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  109. # [09:04] <annevk> zcorpan: is there a better +?
  110. # [09:04] <annevk> zcorpan: and mixing decimal and hex makes sense there
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  114. # [09:13] <zcorpan> + is fine
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  116. # [09:14] <zcorpan> how does it make sense?
  117. # [09:14] <annevk> one is a code point and the other is an index
  118. # [09:14] <annevk> in an array of 94n length
  119. # [09:16] <zcorpan> ↪0x81
  120. # [09:16] <zcorpan> 8648
  121. # [09:16] <zcorpan> ↪0xA0
  122. # [09:16] <zcorpan> 0xF8F0
  123. # [09:16] <zcorpan> how do you explain this, andrew?
  124. # [09:17] <annevk> the first is an index into a table, the second is a code point?
  125. # [09:18] <annevk> 8648 = 92*94
  126. # [09:18] <annevk> though I think that has to be come 188 lower (all of them)
  127. # [09:18] <zcorpan> and 0xF8F0 is not an index?
  128. # [09:18] <annevk> no
  129. # [09:19] <zcorpan> ok, then i'm confused
  130. # [09:19] <zcorpan> "The shift_jis lead octet index for a given octet is:"
  131. # [09:19] <annevk> I didn't want to name it the shift_jis lead octet index or code point for a given octet
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  133. # [09:20] <annevk> but I could I suppose
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  136. # [09:21] <zcorpan> ok, i see now in the to Unicode algorithm that 0xF8F0 and above will equal the code point
  137. # [09:21] <annevk> and the second should prolly be named shift_jis offset rather than trail octet index
  138. # [09:22] <zcorpan> but i don't see why that should mean that it's fine to mix decimal and hex
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  140. # [09:22] <annevk> also 0xE000
  141. # [09:23] <zcorpan> before the to Unicode algorithm, it's just an opaque number
  142. # [09:24] <annevk> I think this is easier if you want to review what the algorithm does
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  146. # [09:42] <hsivonen> I wonder how bad an idea it would be to autodetect UTF-8 vs. locale-specific legacy encoding by seeing if the first non-ASCII byte and up to 3 bytes after it form a valid UTF-8 byte sequence
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  148. # [09:43] <hsivonen> that is, are there valid UTF-8 byte sequences that can reasonably occur in single-byte encodings?
  149. # [09:43] <annevk> What is the problem?
  150. # [09:43] <hsivonen> annevk: letting people publish UTF-8 content while being too inept to declare it
  151. # [09:45] <annevk> there are some legacy encodings that have valid octets for the whole range
  152. # [09:45] <annevk> e.g. windows-1252
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  154. # [09:45] <annevk> or windows-1254
  155. # [09:45] <annevk> 1256 too
  156. # [09:45] <annevk> etc.
  157. # [09:46] <hsivonen> annevk: yes, but in the case of Windows-1252, UTF-8 byte sequences don't seem to result in sensible natural language when decoded as Windows-1252
  158. # [09:46] <hsivonen> dunno about 1254 and 1256
  159. # [09:46] <zcorpan> doesn't opera have heuristics to detect utf-8?
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  161. # [09:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: interesting. from how many bytes?
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  163. # [09:47] <zcorpan> no idea
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  165. # [09:47] <Philip`> hsivonen: What about pages that concatenate a small amount of UTF-8 content and a large amount of legacy-encoding content?
  166. # [09:47] <Philip`> They'll definitely look like UTF-8 at first, but that might not be the desired way to decode them
  167. # [09:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, yeah, such pages are broken no matter what, but the degree of perceived brokenness could vary, sure
  168. # [09:51] <hsivonen> anyway, adding UTF-8 autodetection would not advance the goal Faruk had at the start of the thread
  169. # [09:52] <hsivonen> adding UTF-8 autodetection would only allow UTF-8-using authors to declare less
  170. # [09:52] <annevk> and only if you happen to use it in the first 1024 octets?
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  172. # [09:56] <hsivonen> annevk: no, anywhere
  173. # [09:57] <hsivonen> annevk: the bytes before the first-non-ASCII byte can be decoded as US-ASCII, so there's no need to stall processing except to wait for the 3 bytes after the first non-ASCII byte when the first non-ASCII byte is seen
  174. # [09:58] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, it's not at all clear that the problem this would solve is worth solving
  175. # [10:00] <annevk> oh
  176. # [10:00] <annevk> conceptually I guess it's not that complicated, but it's still kind of sucky
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  186. # [10:23] <hsivonen> annevk: (Re: old IRC logs) It's very likely that there are bugs in Gecko's charset alias list
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  190. # [10:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: apparently we detect as utf-8 if there are 10 or more valid utf-8 byte sequences and no invalid utf-8 byte sequences
  191. # [11:00] <gsnedders> zcorpan: At the start?
  192. # [11:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I take it that valid byte sequences mean multibyte sequences so that 10 ASCII bytes don't count.
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  194. # [11:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: can there be an arbitrary number of ASCII bytes between the UTF-8 byte sequences?
  195. # [11:03] <zcorpan> right
  196. # [11:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how does incremental parsing and rendering work before the sniffer has made its decision?
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  198. # [11:04] <zcorpan> *shrug*
  199. # [11:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's the most interesting part!
  200. # [11:07] <zcorpan> if it's very interesting, i guess you could reverse engineer it :-P
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  202. # [11:09] <zcorpan> apparently we reparse if the detector makes a decision late
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  204. # [11:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. Thanks. I want to avoid introducing reparsing to locales that don't already have it as much as possible.
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  206. # [11:11] <hsivonen> I tried to remove reparsing from the locales that have it in the Firefox 4 cycle, but then the Japanese Planet Debian broke and people got worried
  207. # [11:12] <hsivonen> the Japanese Planet Debian has fixed its encoding declaration since then
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  211. # [11:13] <zcorpan> would be really nice if reparsing could be nuked
  212. # [11:13] <hsivonen> also, I want to avoid making the encoding determination timing-dependent
  213. # [11:13] <hsivonen> people seem to believe that our feedback loop from Japan is broken, so decisions get made based on rumors and existence proof
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  215. # [11:27] <zcorpan> wow, an email from 2002 just made it to the list
  216. # [11:27] <zcorpan> oh sorry, that was part of the email address
  217. # [11:34] <jgraham> But the content was about DTD so I can understand your confusion!
  218. # [11:34] <hsivonen> do we have a FAQ entry about DTDs?
  219. # [11:37] <zcorpan> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Under_what_conditions_should_a_DOCTYPE_be_used_in_XHTML.3F - i guess not enough
  220. # [11:38] <zcorpan> though it links to validator.nu faq, which may be enough
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  231. # [13:01] <annevk> are [TreatUndefinedAs=EmptyString] or [TreatUndefinedAs=Null] actually used?
  232. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Yes
  233. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> In HTML/Obsolete, IIRC
  234. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Oh
  235. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Undefined? Not sure
  236. # [13:03] <annevk> no hits
  237. # [13:03] <annevk> in HTML anyway
  238. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> Mozilla does support it, IIRC
  239. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: why aren't UCS2 names defined as aliases of UTF-16?
  240. # [13:05] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  241. # [13:05] <hsivonen> annevk: so is the plan to make BOM override HTTP so that UTF-16BE with little-endian BOM is decoded as little-endian?
  242. # [13:06] <hsivonen> annevk: fwiw, in case there are bugs in how Gecko handles BOMs in HTML, it's because I was naive enough to assume that the decoder library worked per spec
  243. # [13:06] <annevk> hsivonen: are they in any browser? UTF-16 labels are not really done yet, every browser has them done differently
  244. # [13:06] <annevk> hsivonen: Basically yes, BOM "rules"
  245. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: by source inspection, it seems that Gecko supports crazy UCS2 aliases
  246. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: IIRC, a legacy SonyEricsson browser did, too
  247. # [13:07] <hsivonen> not that it matters
  248. # [13:08] <annevk> hsivonen: I think what put me off was that Gecko added them to BE
  249. # [13:08] <hsivonen> UTF-16 is one of those things that must have seemed great ideas before implementation experience
  250. # [13:08] <annevk> hsivonen: not UTF-16
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  252. # [13:08] <hsivonen> annevk: UCS2 was BE in theory, no?
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  255. # [13:09] <annevk> oh okay
  256. # [13:09] <annevk> I think per http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings only Gecko had those labels
  257. # [13:09] <annevk> but I'm fine with adding labels
  258. # [13:10] <annevk> oh no, so Opera has those labels too, but added to UTF-16
  259. # [13:10] <hsivonen> annevk: if the Web doesn't need them and smontagu agrees, I'm OK with getting rid of those labels
  260. # [13:10] <annevk> but I guess with UTF-16 now defaulting to LE that does not make sense
  261. # [13:10] <hsivonen> annevk: the question is whether there's legacy content
  262. # [13:10] <annevk> hsivonen: IE has this " iso-10646-ucs-2, ucs-2, unicode, utf-16, utf-16le" as labels for utf-16
  263. # [13:10] <hsivonen> annevk: not what makes sense
  264. # [13:10] <annevk> agreed
  265. # [13:11] <hsivonen> annevk: so iso-10646-ucs-2 is LE in IE?
  266. # [13:11] <annevk> I would expect so based on that data
  267. # [13:14] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  268. # [13:15] <hsivonen> inspired by the thread Faruk started, a console warning about form submissions using encodings that can't represent all of Unicode has landed on mozilla-central and will be in the next Nightly build
  269. # [13:15] <hsivonen> I wonder if it has any impact on anything at all
  270. # [13:15] <hsivonen> I hope it does
  271. # [13:16] <hsivonen> and I hope people don't complain too much about Firefox whining about bad authoring practices
  272. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> And that Nightly also won't support geostd8
  273. # [13:16] <annevk> I thought those changes were great
  274. # [13:17] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: is geostd8 an encoding?
  275. # [13:17] <annevk> was :p
  276. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> Yes, something Georgian nobody supports
  277. # [13:17] <hsivonen> hooray!
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  287. # [13:24] <annevk> I think the way the BOM stuff should work by the way is that you say "decode X using label Y" and that algorithm first checks if X has a BOM and then picks utf-8/utf-16/utf-16be if there is a BOM, and otherwise uses Y to pick an encoding
  288. # [13:26] <hsivonen> annevk: what's your plan for integrating format-specific internal encoding declarations to the algorithms?
  289. # [13:27] <annevk> well before HTML starts decoding it first does this search through a bunch of octets
  290. # [13:27] <annevk> and if finds a label there it can then use that
  291. # [13:27] <hsivonen> annevk: FWIW, even though I previously WONTFIXed a theory-based bug about the precedence of the BOM, I'm OK with changing the precedence now that there are examples of real pages in the wild where it matters
  292. # [13:27] <annevk> cool
  293. # [13:35] <annevk> heh, found an old page by Lachy http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Character_Encoding_Detection
  294. # [13:36] <Lachy> I don't remember writing that.
  295. # [13:37] <hsivonen> the Mozilla observations look weird, but I'm willing to believe the old parser did weird things
  296. # [13:37] <Lachy> hmm. Did it in December 2006. That's 5 years ago
  297. # [13:39] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/StringEncoding seems kind of nonsensical to me to expose that many encodings to script authors
  298. # [13:40] <annevk> especially with the addition of allowing user agents to allow arbitrary encodings
  299. # [13:42] <hsivonen> annevk: that seems bad
  300. # [13:42] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c7fb2.bb.sky.com)
  301. # [13:42] <hsivonen> annevk: has it been proposed on a mailing list?
  302. # [13:42] <annevk> dunno, I don't remember seeing it
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  305. # [13:42] <annevk> apart from on the wiki that is
  306. # [13:43] <hsivonen> annevk: the API design is questionable, too
  307. # [13:43] <hsivonen> it turns out that it's really hard to get the API right
  308. # [13:44] <hsivonen> iconv gets the API wrong
  309. # [13:44] <hsivonen> the Gecko-internal decoders get the API wrong
  310. # [13:44] <hsivonen> Java gets the API right
  311. # [13:45] <annevk> I hope the Encoding Standard gets it right, though it does not expose it to that level of detail currently
  312. # [13:45] <Ms2ger> And Java gets the performance wrong? :)
  313. # [13:45] <hsivonen> so if you see a design that doesn't have the characteristics of the Java NIO API, it makes sense to suspect there's an API design error
  314. # [13:45] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: not that I'm aware
  315. # [13:45] <Ms2ger> Then how do I get to whine about Java? :)
  316. # [13:45] <annevk> pointer to that API?
  317. # [13:50] <hsivonen> ICU4C seems to get the API right
  318. # [13:51] <hsivonen> annevk: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/nio/charset/CharsetDecoder.html
  319. # [13:51] <hsivonen> annevk: the key being that it's necessary to be able to signal "no more input" to the decoder
  320. # [13:52] <hsivonen> iconv and Gecko fail at that
  321. # [13:52] <hsivonen> for example, if a file ends with an incomplete UTF-8 byte sequence, you don't see a REPLACEMENT CHARACTER for the trailing incomplete sequence in Firefox
  322. # [13:53] <annevk> ah yes
  323. # [13:53] <annevk> I introduced a "EOF octet" concept for that
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  325. # [14:16] <annevk> though I have not made shift_jis emit an explicit U+FFFD in such cases
  326. # [14:16] <annevk> neither Gecko nor IE did that...
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  339. # [14:42] <zcorpan> gecko and presto don't emit U+FFFD for trailing half utf-8 byte sequence, but both consider that a bug
  340. # [14:42] <eightfold> howdy
  341. # [14:42] <eightfold> is it likely that the HTML5 specification will be finalized without specifying a standardized video and audio format?
  342. # [14:42] <zcorpan> (except opera does it right in websockets because i tested for that and emoller fixed it for websockets)
  343. # [14:43] <jgraham> eightfold: Yes
  344. # [14:43] <jgraham> Well no
  345. # [14:43] <jgraham> The specification will never be finalized
  346. # [14:43] <jgraham> Except in some meaningless W3C way
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  348. # [14:44] <jgraham> As long as people are still implementing it, the HTML standard will keep evolving along a continuum
  349. # [14:44] <eightfold> jgraham: yes, but it will be finalized the meaningless W3C way?
  350. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: how about we make the URL spec a WebApps deliverable instead?
  351. # [14:44] <eightfold> "finalized the" = "finalized in the"
  352. # [14:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: what about the charter?
  353. # [14:45] <jgraham> The video codec won't be mandated in whatever W3C pushes to Rec.
  354. # [14:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe we should first write the spec and then see who wants to publish it...
  355. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> annevk: working on that now
  356. # [14:46] <annevk> sweet
  357. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> about the charter, I guess we'd need to propose it
  358. # [14:46] <annevk> zcorpan: interesting
  359. # [14:46] * annevk is playing with euc-jp decoding
  360. # [14:46] <annevk> it's somewhat more sane than shift_jis, but more complex
  361. # [14:46] <Philip`> eightfold: Meaningless finalisation will require some impossible tasks to be completed (like a comprehensive test suite and comprehensively interoperable implementations), so it'll depend on whether those requirements get dropped or ignored or whether they block progress forever
  362. # [14:46] <eightfold> jgraham: what is the "Rec."? recommendation?
  363. # [14:46] <jgraham> Yes
  364. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> Ignored, I guess
  365. # [14:48] <eightfold> but does anyone here believe there will ever be a common video format among browser vendors?
  366. # [14:48] <zcorpan> i hope there will be!
  367. # [14:49] <zcorpan> but who doesn't
  368. # [14:49] <eightfold> yes, i sure do too.
  369. # [14:49] <jgraham> No point in letting unreasoble requirements get in the way of celebrating finishing a legacy technology
  370. # [14:50] <eightfold> microsoft and apple doesn't seem to be very eager to implement webm support. at least i realized the >ie9 solution seems to simplify the installation of a browser plugin.
  371. # [14:50] * eightfold will brb
  372. # [14:52] <hsivonen> WebM support for IE9 isn't really a browser plug-in
  373. # [14:53] <hsivonen> it's an extension component for the system-wide media framework
  374. # [14:53] <hsivonen> different layer of extension
  375. # [14:53] <hsivonen> different API
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  379. # [15:01] <bga> https://github.com/jterrace/js.js
  380. # [15:01] <bga> %)
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  389. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> "It currently takes about 40 seconds to run print(1+1)."
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  398. # [15:24] <eightfold> hsivonen: that was what i was trying to say, but didn't. :) what does the process look like to the end user? i don't have a windows installation handy.
  399. # [15:35] <eightfold> is there any chance w3c will recommend h.264 in the html5 spec, given it's proprietary nature?
  400. # [15:35] <eightfold> its
  401. # [15:38] <smaug____> eightfold: I guess only if h.264 becomes royalty-free
  402. # [15:41] <eightfold> smaug____: MPEG-LA has said that it will be forever, but only for end users, right? so software that implements h.264 still has to pay?
  403. # [15:41] <eightfold> "it will be" = "it will be free"
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  406. # [15:43] <zewt> that's the same thing, heh
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  408. # [15:44] <eightfold> oops
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  410. # [15:45] <smaug____> eightfold: it must be free for implementors
  411. # [15:46] <eightfold> smaug____: for w3c to recommend it, you mean?
  412. # [15:47] <zewt> there are endless places they can drop in licensing (encoders, decoders, per type of media encoded, for streaming, etc)
  413. # [15:48] <smaug____> eightfold: there are w3c members which certainly won't accept recommendation which includes non-free parts
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  437. # [16:44] <hsivonen> eightfold: to get WebM for IE9, you go to a Web page, download an installer .exe and run it as administrator
  438. # [16:44] <hsivonen> eightfold: the experience is the usual Windows software installation experience
  439. # [16:45] <hsivonen> eightfold: MPEG-LA wants royalties from encoders, decoders and from a subset of people who distribute bits arranged with an H.264 encoder
  440. # [16:46] <hsivonen> eightfold: for H.264 to be properly royalty-free, it needs to be royalty-free to decode, to encode and to transfer
  441. # [16:46] <zewt> if you ever hear the MPEG-LA offering anything for "free", double-check--the entire *point* of the MPEG-LA is to license MPEG stuff for money
  442. # [16:47] <zewt> they're not going to do anything just to be nice
  443. # [16:47] <hsivonen> eightfold: where encode and decode are shorthand for making, distributing and running decoder/encoder
  444. # [16:49] <zewt> (though I could just almost see them offering a hamstrung profile for free, just to try to cripple competing free codec development)
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  453. # [17:06] <gsnedders> zewt: There are plenty of members of MPEG-LA and the MPEG WG who want there be a RF standard. Apple is one of the most vocal.
  454. # [17:07] <gsnedders> (And don't think Apple are just saying that after the Ogg/Theora stuff going everywhere: they were vocal about this at the time H.264 was being standardized a decade ago.)
  455. # [17:07] <hsivonen> gsnedders: they were vocal about MPEG-4 (Visual) Simple Profile before H.264
  456. # [17:08] <gsnedders> And I believe about stuff before that too.
  457. # [17:08] <gsnedders> But yeah, that there are patent holders pushing for a RF baseline isn't new, but it's no more likely to happen now than a decade ago.
  458. # [17:09] <gsnedders> Also, as foolip has pointed out multiple times, without an audio codec and the container becoming RF, it doesn't matter much as you don't gain compat. with existing toolchains.
  459. # [17:09] <zewt> and of course it would be a reduced profile
  460. # [17:09] <hsivonen> gsnedders: so much so that the release of QuickTime 6 was delayed, because Apple tried to get the stuff made royalty-free
  461. # [17:10] <hsivonen> (of course, when you have shown you have the software ready to ship, it's not particularly credible to withhold it for a short while. they know you are going to ship it)
  462. # [17:10] <erlehmann> gsnedders, if apple cares about royalty free standards now, why haven't they supported vorbis when everyone else does? explain.
  463. # [17:11] <gsnedders> "Apple agrees with paying a reasonable royalty for including MPEG-4 codecs in QuickTime, but does not believe that MPEG-4 can be successful in the marketplace if content owners must also pay royalties in order to deliver their content using MPEG-4."
  464. # [17:11] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you'd gain compat with existing chips
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  466. # [17:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: True, but I get the impression that stuff is starting to move on mobile to where it is on TVs: having DSPs reprogrammable.
  467. # [17:12] <gsnedders> erlehmann: There are plenty of reasons why they might not have done so; it's hard to speculate.
  468. # [17:12] <erlehmann> aren't they already? see the OMAP work.
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  470. # [17:12] <hsivonen> gsnedders: reprogrammable by whom
  471. # [17:12] <erlehmann> gsnedders, i thought you might be more in the know than me.
  472. # [17:12] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Most mobile devices ship with locked-down DSPs. Certainly OMAP devices in general have unlocked DSPs, not sure about mobile applications of them.
  473. # [17:12] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Anyone whom the OS allows access to the chips to.
  474. # [17:13] <hsivonen> gsnedders: if the chip vendor gives you enough documentation and toolchain
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  476. # [17:13] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Sure, but for most Android devices that's probably enough.
  477. # [17:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Because WebM is now part of the standard Android impl
  478. # [17:14] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does Android let apps push code to the DSP?
  479. # [17:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I believe not. But I believe everyone who does WebM decoding uses the Android's native support.
  480. # [17:14] <zewt> hardware on android tends to be hidden behind magic proprietary .so's or hidden away on the locked-down radio side of things
  481. # [17:14] <zewt> it'd be the vendor who would have to implement it
  482. # [17:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is it so much part of the standard Android impl that Opera is going to let it show in canPlayType?
  483. # [17:15] <gsnedders> (Though our experience has been WebM support often interacts badly with hardware-accelerated drawing in a lot of cases.)
  484. # [17:17] <gsnedders> (i.e., WebM's support in Android on many devices is buggy)
  485. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Apparently it often draws in the wrong place, for example.
  486. # [17:22] <zewt> heh, second time google search has wonked up the cursor position while i was typing a search
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  488. # [17:27] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Somehow Google needs to better ensure Android devices don't have horrible bugs like that :\
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  490. # [17:28] <zewt> they can't even get android devices to use a standard button layout, so ...
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  496. # [17:51] <gsnedders> erlehmann: A few possible reasons: they don't feel their customers require it; they don't think another format that exists for the sake of being RF is benefical and would rather an existing format; they think the patent risk of Theora is too high, etc.
  497. # [17:52] <erlehmann> gsnedders, i was more talking about vorbis.
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  499. # [17:52] <erlehmann> which is usable almost everywhere except when apple software comes into the picture
  500. # [17:53] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Vorbis is a more interesting question, and less clear why MS/Apple's native frameworks don't support it.
  501. # [17:55] <erlehmann> gsnedders, … says a person working for a company that would take a sizable hit if it had to pay royalties for media decoding, opposed to apple and ms.
  502. # [17:57] <erlehmann> reducing competition is an incentive.
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  504. # [18:00] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  505. # [18:01] <erlehmann> gsnedders, or wouldn't it? how high are royalties?
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  507. # [18:01] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Apple and MS both pay more for licensing than they recieve from them, AFAIK
  508. # [18:01] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Apple certainly does.
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  511. # [18:02] <gsnedders> Apple certainly has little financial interest in MPEG-4 being used, and have pushed for everything in MPEG-4 they hold patents on to be RF.
  512. # [18:03] <zewt> as far as I'm concerned, anything MPEG being RF is a bad thing (for the rest of the world)
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  514. # [18:04] <gsnedders> zewt: Why?
  515. # [18:04] <zewt> it will slow the adoption and development of truly free codecs
  516. # [18:04] <erlehmann> gsnedders, that is not a point. but 81 million NOK being around 13.5 million US$ may be a point.
  517. # [18:05] <gsnedders> erlehmann: huh?
  518. # [18:05] <erlehmann> apple income is measured in *billions* of dollarites
  519. # [18:05] <erlehmann> gsnedders, i just looked up how big the companies are and figured that licensing media codecs hits a small company more than a big. you tell me if i am correct.
  520. # [18:06] <erlehmann> „big“ as in „operating income“
  521. # [18:06] <gsnedders> erlehmann: The cost of licensing it to ship encoders and decoders will stay for a while regardless; there's too much existing content out there, and the fact that DVDs and Blu-Ray require the decoders (and encoders, if you want to author content, which bundled software allows)
  522. # [18:06] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Right, yeah.
  523. # [18:07] <erlehmann> if the cost for h.264 stuff is capped at 6.5 million, that it as least the same ballpark. scary.
  524. # [18:08] <gsnedders> The licensing fees aren't a major issue to Apple, but nor is the income they get at all notable. The only financal reasons not to ship more codecs is developer time and patent risk.
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  526. # [18:08] <erlehmann> hahaha, doctor evil http://obamapacman.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Dr-Evil-H.264-5-million-dollars-licensing-myth.jpg
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  528. # [18:09] <erlehmann> gsnedders, are you assuming that it is not a strategic benefit to make it harder to enter a market?
  529. # [18:09] <erlehmann> >obamapacman.com
  530. # [18:09] <erlehmann> wat
  531. # [18:09] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Which markert?
  532. # [18:09] <erlehmann> harry potter. OBAMA.
  533. # [18:09] <gsnedders> *market
  534. # [18:10] <zewt> gsnedders: it's not hard to contrive other possible financial reasons (whether they're actual considerations or not, only they know)
  535. # [18:10] <gsnedders> Practically, I can't think of any market for which it is a strategic benefit.
  536. # [18:10] <erlehmann> gsnedders, any market. if company A can afford to pay for patents more easily than company B, a competitor, an open standard may not be in the best short-term-interest of the shareholders of company A.
  537. # [18:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: You seem to be missing the point. Irrespective of whether Apple profits directly from licensing fees, requiring browser implementors to support h.264 would be like regressive taxation
  538. # [18:11] <jgraham> In that it would disproportionately affect the poorer players
  539. # [18:11] <zewt> for example, everyone using codecs that cost money could increase the cost--slightly--of creating competing phones
  540. # [18:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: But Apple practically isn't competing with other browser vendors, esp. on iOS.
  541. # [18:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: Huh?!
  542. # [18:11] <erlehmann> gsnedders, what? apple is hindering them for the benefit of its own ecosystem. see the crippling of the audio element API.
  543. # [18:12] <jgraham> I agree that they are trying to have an unlevel playing field
  544. # [18:12] <erlehmann> which is a strategic benefit. gsnedders, i do not see where you are going here.
  545. # [18:12] <jgraham> But they clearly compete with mini on iOS and with other platforms on mobile
  546. # [18:12] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I'd argue that was not wanting the web platform competing with native applications, not a fear about browser marketshare per-se.
  547. # [18:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: And Mini is going for a sufficently different segment of the market when it comes to video support, for example, that it isn't really competition in this context.
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  549. # [18:16] <gsnedders> Basically, my point is that for iOS/iPod the market is so full of competitors that already support the same formats (excluding Apple's DRM) that they have no competitive advantage there, as allowing more competitors into the market likely would not be a massive threat to their marketshare; on the desktop it possibly makes F/OSS OSes more plausible, but most users there already install the patent-encumbered codecs anyway, it doesn't give them a comp
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  555. # [18:42] <hsivonen> I wonder when Opera is going to have the compute power to do video transcodes on the Mini servers
  556. # [18:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: A few customers have video transcoding done for custom Mini-based products, FWIW
  557. # [18:44] * gsnedders wonders what the average screen resolution of Mini users is
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  576. # [19:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: I entirely disagree with the notion that Mini doesn't compete with Mobile Safari.
  577. # [19:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: It does in general. It doesn't compete for people wanting to view YouTube, for example.
  578. # [19:15] <gsnedders> That's all I mean.
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  580. # [19:16] <gsnedders> It doesn't compete because it doesn't support the one prerequisite thing: video support.
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  584. # [19:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: do you think that is more or less likely to change if usable video implies paying tens of millions of NOK a year to MPEG-LA?
  585. # [19:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: No real change.
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  621. # [20:16] <erlehmann> jgraham, lol.
  622. # [20:16] <erlehmann> tens of millions of NOK sounds like EVE Online
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  652. # [21:21] <annevk> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/opinion/krugman-nobody-understands-debt.html "But it also revealed something else: when people in D.C. talk about deficits and debt, by and large they have no idea what they’re talking about — and the people who talk the most understand the least."
  653. # [21:21] <annevk> sounds like your average standards meeting
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  666. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> s/in D\.C\. //;s/deficits and debt/anything/
  667. # [22:06] <annevk> so the writer of that article has @nytimeskrugman as twitter account, but has not posted said article there :/
  668. # [22:06] <annevk> I've been spending about five minutes trying to research the most appropriate tweet to retweet
  669. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: What are you doing for Moz now?
  670. # [22:07] <annevk> (@nytimes has not posted it either as far as I can tell)
  671. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, right this very second, I'm trying to figure out where I'm supposed to call for a one-on-one chat with someone.
  672. # [22:07] * AryehGregor is about to just take a guess
  673. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> In general, I'm working on a bunch of stuff, starting with tests for CSS Transforms.
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  681. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> annevk: Who's taken over MQ?
  682. # [22:27] <jgraham> Oh, media queries, not mercurial queues
  683. # [22:27] <annevk> Florian I think
  684. # [22:27] <annevk> and Sylvain
  685. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Thanks!
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  692. # [22:38] <Yuhong> I like to mention how IE8 don't support 10 years old web technology:
  693. # [22:38] <Yuhong> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3420948
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  715. # [23:52] <ojan> Hixie, heycam|away: I'm trying to figure out what the resolution to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8241 is.
  716. # [23:52] <ojan> that whole discussion is way over my head
  717. # [23:53] <ojan> I'm just trying to figure out what the resolution is for the sake of fixing http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=80591
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  719. # [23:58] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  720. # Session Close: Wed Jan 04 00:00:01 2012

The end :)