/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 08 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <annevk> hsivonen: k, guess I'll take a look once I've done everything else
  4. # [00:01] <annevk> which may take a while
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  7. # [00:12] <annevk> Notes:
  8. # [00:12] <annevk> * use encoder / decoder as terms
  9. # [00:13] <annevk> * write as "The <dfn>gbk decoder</dfn> (<span>decoder</span> for <span>gbk</span>) is:" for easier referencing
  10. # [00:14] <annevk> * keep the single-octet tables, but use an external file in Unicode.org-style as normative format (maybe stripping 00-7E)
  11. # [00:15] <annevk> * see about using Unicode.org-style for the jis table (e.g. cp950) rather than an array
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  14. # [00:34] <annevk> so as far as I can tell the only encoding not compatible with ASCII that made it into the new standard is utf-16
  15. # [00:34] <annevk> utf-16 is truly unique and evil
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  20. # [00:54] <Hixie> hey anyone know if there's something that would cause <button>s in Firefox to magically sprout disabled="" attributes?
  21. # [00:55] <smaug____> sprout .. attributes?
  22. # [00:55] <Hixie> i have a <button> in a project i'm doing that doesn't have disabled="" in the markup, and nowhere in any of the scripts do i change that button's disabled state
  23. # [00:55] <Hixie> and if i set a dom breakpoint on attribute change it never fires for this button
  24. # [00:55] <Hixie> yet every now and then, it ends up having a disabled attribute
  25. # [00:56] <smaug____> I don't recall anything which might cause that
  26. # [00:56] <Hixie> weird weird weird
  27. # [00:57] <Hixie> doesn't happen in webkit as far as i can tell
  28. # [00:57] <Hixie> so i don't think it's my code
  29. # [00:57] <Hixie> but i can't see why it would happen otherwise
  30. # [00:57] <Hixie> i don't have any browser sniffing or anything that should make it different in different browsers
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  32. # [00:58] <smaug____> any addons?
  33. # [00:59] <smaug____> Hixie: or does it happen only after reload ?
  34. # [00:59] <Hixie> Firebug, DOM Inspector, "Blank Tab Multivariate Test Addon 1.3", and "Test Pilot 1.2 (disabled)"
  35. # [00:59] <Hixie> everything i do is after reload, so it could be
  36. # [00:59] <Hixie> (i'm continuously reloading this project as i hack on it)
  37. # [00:59] <smaug____> does shift+reload help
  38. # [01:00] <smaug____> note, webkit doesn't have form state restoration thingie
  39. # [01:00] <smaug____> IIRC
  40. # [01:00] <Hixie> i usually reload with shift+command+r
  41. # [01:00] <Hixie> webkit does have form state restoration, but this isn't that, my code never sets disabled on the button
  42. # [01:00] <smaug____> right
  43. # [01:06] <smaug____> I don't see anything in Gecko which could cause that
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  45. # [01:08] <zewt> heh, nothing's quite as much fun as pages that disable submit buttons, then reloading it and having it stay disables
  46. # [01:08] <zewt> i use GM scripts to disable that nonsense on a page or two
  47. # [01:11] <smaug____> Hixie: are you using any script libraries (which may do random stuff)
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  59. # [01:51] <Hixie> bummer, he left
  60. # [01:51] <Hixie> no script libraries
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  118. # [05:48] <kennyluck> hmm… didn't notice that IE and FF aren't doing the UTF8 with error handling fully, e.g. for error happening at the end of streams.
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  186. # [12:06] <annevk> kennyluck: end of stream is a drama all over the place
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  203. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> http://webbeep.it/spec.html
  204. # [13:44] <erlehmann> Ms2ger, better https://github.com/erlehmann/libglitch/blob/master/FORMAT-draft-erlehmann
  205. # [13:46] <erlehmann> Ms2ger, web beeps is probably very useful for 90ies hacker movies
  206. # [13:47] <erlehmann> >By restricting these to a pentatonic scale, arbitrary combinations of notes could be used without major dissonance.
  207. # [13:47] <erlehmann> clever
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  211. # [14:27] * Philip` always likes diagrams with spellchecker underlines in them
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  225. # [16:13] <annevk> what's a good name for the encoding data table / mapping table / thingie?
  226. # [16:13] * Parts: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  227. # [16:13] <annevk> index? mapping?
  228. # [16:14] <annevk> naming sucks
  229. # [16:16] * danbri_ is now known as danbri
  230. # [16:16] <Philip`> Lookup table?
  231. # [16:17] <annevk> and URL lookup-table-iso-8859-2.txt ?
  232. # [16:23] <zewt> simply "map"?
  233. # [16:25] <annevk> "an encoding can have map"
  234. # [16:26] <zewt> ?
  235. # [16:26] <zewt> "can have a map"
  236. # [16:27] <annevk> euh yeah
  237. # [16:27] <annevk> although some can have more than one I suppose
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  241. # [16:44] <Ms2ger> Almost a year since Google announced they were dropping support for H.264
  242. # [16:46] <izhak> The lack of a good modular html parser implementation on c/c++ is really really oppressive.
  243. # [16:47] <izhak> As the DOM C/C++ implementaion lack is.
  244. # [16:47] <annevk> so fix it :)
  245. # [16:49] <izhak> annevk: I'm trying:)
  246. # [16:49] <izhak> Lot's of people trying I suppose.
  247. # [16:50] <annevk> I haven't seen much actually apart from browser implementations and implementations in JavaScript
  248. # [16:50] <izhak> Well, trying never meant success.
  249. # [16:51] <izhak> I think the next step in Web is not possible without having bringing modularity to scene
  250. # [16:58] <Philip`> izhak: What do you consider "modular" to be?
  251. # [16:59] <Philip`> (e.g. is the parser okay if it forces you to use its own DOM implementation?)
  252. # [17:01] * Philip` isn't about to suggest an implementation, he's just curious as to what's desired
  253. # [17:02] <izhak> Philip`: By modular I mean particular parts of browsers to be done as libraries with stable interfaces
  254. # [17:02] <izhak> Say, DOM, HTML forgiving parser
  255. # [17:05] <Philip`> Parsers in browsers have to support scripting (and document.write etc) which I imagine makes the interfaces far more complex and messy - would it be better to just have a non-scripting parser with a simpler API?
  256. # [17:05] <izhak> UI and Object Model diversion
  257. # [17:06] <Philip`> (A non-scripting parser would be useless when implementing a parser, but is presumably what's needed for almost every other instance of HTML parsing)
  258. # [17:06] <Philip`> s/implementing a parser/implementing a browser/
  259. # [17:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'm going to retire the unicode- files I generated earlier in favor of these new files
  260. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> Alright
  261. # [17:06] <izhak> non-script parser becomes more and more useless today
  262. # [17:08] <izhak> As I know even crowlers (why even? - neatly) run scripts today
  263. # [17:10] <smaug____> and since you need scripting, designing api for modular parser is hard
  264. # [17:10] <smaug____> If you need a C++ parser, I'd take hsivonen's parser and translate it to C++
  265. # [17:11] <smaug____> (using some automatic tool)
  266. # [17:17] <webben> Philip`: scripting parsers are likely better for a lot of scraping applications.
  267. # [17:17] <Philip`> izhak: It wouldn't be feasible for them to run scripts without implementing pretty much an entire web browser (in which case they'd presumably automate a WebKit instead of writing their own code)
  268. # [17:18] <webben> yes, hence ChromeDriver and Phantom.JS.
  269. # [17:18] <webben> *PhantomJS
  270. # [17:18] <Philip`> izhak: (In my testing some time ago, Googlebot dealt with scripts just by looking inside the script text for strings that looked like absolute or relative URLs and then crawling those, without attempting to actually run any scripts)
  271. # [17:19] <Philip`> (and a non-scripting parser should be sufficient for that)
  272. # [17:20] <izhak> Philip`: That's the issue of UI and Object Model mess
  273. # [17:20] <izhak> They should be decoupled
  274. # [17:20] <izhak> Just parsing out the links from scripts is not sufficient
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  277. # [17:24] <Philip`> We can't do anything about the layering-violation mess that browsers have to deal with, so I think my hypothetical question is whether there'd be more interest in a necessarily messy API that can deal with that mess, or a nice clean modular API that ignores it but is probably still good enough for any use case that doesn't involve building an entire browser
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  279. # [17:29] <izhak> The semantics which is expected to be found on Web in an increasing quantity and quality requires an access to the API of different layers today, opposite to the Past when only the resulted web page was an object of interest.
  280. # [17:30] <izhak> So the clean API to that modules I think will be demanded more and more
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  286. # [18:02] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/map-iso-8859-3.txt
  287. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> Nice, thanks
  288. # [18:03] <annevk> since most of section 5 is non-normative now maybe that should be nuked, but it's somewhat valuable I guess
  289. # [18:04] <annevk> well you can always look at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/single-octet-research.html I suppose
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  291. # [18:18] <annevk> any objections to removing 5.1 - 5.28?
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  296. # [18:36] <annevk> done
  297. # [18:41] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  298. # [18:52] <annevk> I never realized the only multi-octet encodings were from CJK
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  300. # [19:00] <annevk> """
  301. # [19:00] <annevk> And here's the table they used:
  302. # [19:00] <annevk> Big5 to Unicode(codepoint):
  303. # [19:00] <annevk> http://moztw.org/docs/big5/table/moz18-b2u.txt
  304. # [19:00] <annevk> Unicode(codepoint) to Big5:
  305. # [19:00] <annevk> http://moztw.org/docs/big5/table/moz18-u2b.txt
  306. # [19:00] <annevk> """
  307. # [19:00] <annevk> the second file has more lines than the first...
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  310. # [19:07] <annevk> smaug____: btw, before you get surprised, WebKit does not default whatToShow to SHOW_ALL; since WebKit's default was 0 we decided on a better one
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  324. # [20:12] <annevk> so Chrome still understands a fair bit of iso-2022-cn (which is btw another hopeless mess), it just doesn't use any data tables for it
  325. # [20:19] <bga_> gsnedders are you here?
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  327. # [20:22] <gsnedders> bga_: yes
  328. # [20:22] <bga_> . /([@!])(.*?)$/.exec('12@1@!12@3')
  329. # [20:22] <gsnedders> Known bug.
  330. # [20:23] <bga_> i want non gredy backward search
  331. # [20:23] <gsnedders> I think.
  332. # [20:23] <gsnedders> If that's what I think.
  333. # [20:23] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, no it isn't.
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  335. # [20:23] <bga_> but its greedy
  336. # [20:23] <gsnedders> bga_: So the last @ or ! and everything that follows?
  337. # [20:24] <bga_> yeah
  338. # [20:24] <bga_> last, not first
  339. # [20:25] <gsnedders> /(@[^@]*|![^!]*)$/ will be quicker than anything more complex.
  340. # [20:25] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  341. # [20:25] <bga_> hm
  342. # [20:25] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  343. # [20:26] <bga_> . /(.)([^@!]*?)$/.exec('12@1@!12@3')
  344. # [20:26] <bga_> thanks
  345. # [20:26] <bga_> not general solution but works
  346. # [20:27] <gsnedders> Not sure why that isn't greedy off hand.
  347. # [20:27] <gsnedders> Oh, duh
  348. # [20:27] <bga_> i reversed string before and it worked too, but full string reverse is slow
  349. # [20:28] <gsnedders> It matches the [@!] first. Then it backtracks when it has to for the .*
  350. # [20:28] <gsnedders> But it never has to backtrack for that, as everything matches it and the following $.
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  352. # [20:31] <erlehmann> i wonder why people do that https://plus.google.com/105786194532858868645/posts
  353. # [20:32] <erlehmann> after all the chrome team has repeatedly shown they do hate the open web
  354. # [20:32] <erlehmann> err
  355. # [20:32] <erlehmann> the google+ team
  356. # [20:32] <erlehmann> i am of sleepy today
  357. # [20:32] <erlehmann> sorry to the chrome team ;)
  358. # [20:32] <gsnedders> Yeah, I should go get a more modern browser for Google+.
  359. # [20:33] <erlehmann> gsnedders, when you use opera, do they show an upgrade message?
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  375. # [21:16] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Certainly I've seen it several times, yeah
  376. # [21:16] <erlehmann> gsnedders, you better do no evil … or else!
  377. # [21:17] <erlehmann> „evil“ meaning running a non-approved browser ^_^
  378. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Well, Opera is finally slowly getting into Google's automated testing
  379. # [21:20] <smaug____> (It feels to me that Google is testing stuff more and more only using Chrome)
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  410. # [23:09] <GPHemsley> annevk: Are you aware that the '**' and 'Issue:' overlap in your Encoding files (and others?)?
  411. # [23:10] <zewt> what the
  412. # [23:10] <zewt> cool, chrome is crashing on initial load, heh
  413. # [23:11] <zewt> wonder if they pushed a bad update or something
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  416. # [23:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: ooh, I guess that's because of the WHATWG style sheet
  417. # [23:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: fixed for http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  418. # [23:18] <GPHemsley> cool
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  420. # [23:19] <GPHemsley> annevk: Oh, you just removed the 'Issue' part?
  421. # [23:19] <annevk> euh yeah?
  422. # [23:19] <GPHemsley> because apparently they were marking two different things
  423. # [23:19] <GPHemsley> (not everything had both)
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  425. # [23:20] <annevk> oh that's because I only applied Issue: to <p>
  426. # [23:20] <annevk> and not <ol>
  427. # [23:20] <annevk> but it's all the same
  428. # [23:20] <GPHemsley> ah, OK
  429. # [23:20] <annevk> something that needs better text (or text at all)
  430. # [23:20] <GPHemsley> right
  431. # [23:21] * Quits: wesbos (~wesbos@CPE0007e9a8b6b2-CM001a6682447a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  432. # [23:23] * Joins: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143)
  433. # [23:25] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  434. # [23:37] * Joins: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com)
  435. # [23:41] <annevk> so are we back to no longer discussing new features on some list? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697132
  436. # [23:41] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  437. # [23:47] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-149-102-172.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  438. # [23:47] <smaug____> annevk: that is mainly about the b2g thing
  439. # [23:48] <smaug____> so, very experimental stuff atm
  440. # [23:48] <bga_> hm
  441. # [23:48] <bga_> document.elementFromPoint({x: 0, y: 0})
  442. # [23:48] <bga_> is it standard feature?
  443. # [23:49] <smaug____> elementFromPoint is, but the parameter isn't
  444. # [23:49] <bga_> but chrome support object :)
  445. # [23:49] <bga_> ok
  446. # [23:49] <bga_> thanks
  447. # [23:50] <smaug____> huh
  448. # [23:53] <bga_> also
  449. # [23:54] <bga_> style.width = '1m'
  450. # [23:54] <bga_> is it meter or mile?
  451. # [23:54] <zewt> one light minute
  452. # [23:55] <bga_> chome gives me 968px in offsetWidth
  453. # [23:55] <bga_> but if i calc 100cm - its 3700px
  454. # [23:56] <bga_> hm
  455. # [23:56] * Quits: eightfold (~eightfold@c213-89-124-64.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  456. # Session Close: Mon Jan 09 00:00:00 2012

The end :)