/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 10 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:07] <Hixie> of all the features i've specced over the years, none has had as many people trying to use it for unexpected purposes than appcache
  8. # [00:07] <Hixie> on www-html, someone is asking for how to embed a manifest inside an HTML file because they want to make their app a one-file app.
  9. # [00:07] <Hixie> ...what?
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  12. # [00:18] <Hixie> is Smylers ever on IRC?
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  22. # [00:56] <Hixie> ooo, there's a CSS Product now in bugzilla
  23. # [00:56] <Hixie> is this new?
  24. # [00:56] <Hixie> looks like it's new as of a few months ago
  25. # [00:57] <Hixie> good to know
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  31. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it was there for a while but we added some more components to it
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  33. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> if you want any other components added, lemme know
  34. # [01:13] <Hixie> k
  35. # [01:14] <Hixie> i just needed somewhere to offload HTML WG bugs when they were really CSS bugs
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  37. # [01:14] <Hixie> so the misc component is enough for my purposes
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  39. # [01:15] <Hixie> it's fascinating to me how browser vendors are always complaining about how it should be easier to follow the spec changing, but of the dozens of people who have subscribed to the spec's notification mechanism, only a handful are browser vendors
  40. # [01:16] <Hixie> i mean, who are all these people who are following the spec so closely?
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  42. # [01:17] <Philip`> People who like to subscribe to everything possible and then filter it out instead of actually reading it?
  43. # [01:19] * dglazkov realizes how demeaning the term "browser vendor" sounds. Heeeeere's some browsers! Get a browser! Fresh, hot browsers!
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  45. # [01:20] <dglazkov> it totally misrepresents the slow and painful slog that is writing browser software.
  46. # [01:20] <dglazkov> can we rename us to browser sisyphuses?
  47. # [01:21] <dglazkov> or possibly something without sissy and fusses in them?
  48. # [01:22] <dglazkov> ah. I forgot a :)
  49. # [01:22] <dglazkov> just in case I offended Hixie
  50. # [01:22] <dglazkov> :)
  51. # [01:23] <Hixie> :-P
  52. # [01:23] <Hixie> you'll have to work harder than that to offend me :-P
  53. # [01:23] <dglazkov> I dare not. The bar is too high.
  54. # [01:24] <divya> treebeard browsers?
  55. # [01:24] <Hixie> Philip`: actually because of the info in the subscription mails, i think it's better now to just subscribe to all the topics than it is to use the commit list
  56. # [01:24] <Hixie> i should see how many people subscribed to that though
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  58. # [01:25] <Hixie> wow, 249 people
  59. # [01:26] <Hixie> wow, including quite a few browser vendors
  60. # [01:26] <Hixie> philip's theory is proved right, i guess
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  100. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: the Japanese transliteration of "vendor" is the same as the transliteration of "bender"
  101. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> so let's start saying "browser benders" instead
  102. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> btw, speaking of benders: "Electricity attracts devils and demons. Other instruments attract other spirits. An acoustic guitar attracts Casper. A mandolin attracts Wendy. But an electric guitar attracts Beelzebub." http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2009/03/captain-beefhearts-10-commandments-of-guitar-playing.html
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  107. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> web-apps-tracker busted?
  108. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: ↑
  109. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  110. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> wow
  111. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> load average: 3.88, 4.97, 6.40
  112. # [03:39] <Hixie> well that means it's getting better
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  114. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
  115. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> um, I think it's my fault
  116. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> because I tweeted about the e-mail regexp
  117. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> geeks love that crap
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  119. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> fish food
  120. # [03:43] * MikeSmith apologizes to html5.org server for harshing his mellow
  121. # [03:43] <Hixie> that explains whatwg.org being down too then
  122. # [03:43] <Hixie> who knew that would be that popular
  123. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> code snippet of any kind is like catnip for the geek
  124. # [03:47] <Hixie> i guess
  125. # [03:47] <Hixie> but this is silly
  126. # [03:47] <Hixie> i can't even get into hixie.ch to see what's actually happening
  127. # [03:47] <Hixie> wtf
  128. # [03:48] <jamesr_> hixie.ch down?
  129. # [03:48] <jamesr_> is it all the same dreamhost?
  130. # [03:48] <Hixie> same server as whatwg.org
  131. # [03:48] * jamesr_ was trying to make a testcase :(
  132. # [03:48] <Hixie> i could increase the virtual host allocation briefly
  133. # [03:48] <Hixie> but that sounds like work
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  136. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> not sure it was actually my bad
  137. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> but the timing seems more than coincidental
  138. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> please call me El Destructo
  139. # [03:51] <Hixie> i'll check the logs if i remember later when it comes back up
  140. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> k
  141. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> twitter regexp lovebomb
  142. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> jwz would be proud
  143. # [03:52] <Hixie> clearly everyone is just like "holy crap, hixie started editing again". :-P
  144. # [03:52] <Hixie> bbiab
  145. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> "Hixie: The Resurrection"
  146. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> now with more regexp
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  150. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> load average: 10.79, 8.84, 8.36
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  170. # [04:40] <Hixie> well looks like the bulk of the load i'm getting is from 2607:f298:1:105::72a:42f3
  171. # [04:42] <Hixie> no idea who that is but i'm guessing html5.org maybe?
  172. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> eh?
  173. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> oh
  174. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> ipv6
  175. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: nope
  176. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> I think
  177. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> html5.org is 2607:f298:1:103::d75:8e6d
  178. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> or claims to be at least
  179. # [04:45] <Hixie> same subnet then
  180. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  181. # [04:45] <Hixie> whatever host it is is hammering me doing OPTIONS * on hixie.ch
  182. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> I dunno jack about reading ipv6 addresses
  183. # [04:46] <Hixie> which is what i see when someone does a lot of svn stuff
  184. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> hmm
  185. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> of course web-apps-tracker calls svn
  186. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> on whatever other host
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  188. # [04:48] <Hixie> oh wait
  189. # [04:48] <Hixie> i'm an idiot
  190. # [04:48] <Hixie> 2607:f298:1:105::72a:42f3 is hixie.ch, and an OPTIONS * request from that IP on this dashboard means nothing's happening -_-
  191. # [04:48] <Hixie> i'm gonna go now before i say anything else dumb.
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  193. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> heh
  194. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> seems to be OK now at least
  195. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> nerd interest now fully turned back to rage comic subreddit
  196. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, go see Paul if you haven't already
  197. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> my daughter talked me into going to see it with her
  198. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> a
  199. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> and we laughed all the way through
  200. # [04:54] <MikeSmith> her because she's a 13 year old and me because I'm mentally still pretty much still 13
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  202. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: and in other news, when you have time please glance through http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/f1e294d18a68/Overview.html and let me know if it looks like it's headed in the right direction
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  206. # [05:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: did you end up editor?
  207. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> well, shadow editor for now
  208. # [05:01] <Hixie> poor sucker
  209. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> heh
  210. # [05:01] <Hixie> from a quick glance it looks good
  211. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> so far I just attempted to melt together what Adam had done in the IETF draft and what you had in the spec and what Adam had for the URL API
  212. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> the parsing algorithms are from Adam's IETF draft rather than what was in the spec
  213. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> because I assume Adam has good reasons for doing those differently
  214. # [05:02] <Hixie> two quick comments if you're editing tha spec:
  215. # [05:02] * MikeSmith nods
  216. # [05:02] <Hixie> 1. there's a bunch of bugs in the w3c bugzilla to look at
  217. # [05:02] <Hixie> look for things assigned to adam or with "url" in the whiteboard or summary
  218. # [05:03] <Hixie> 2. one of the core design decisions to make is whether any arbitrary string should always parse or whether it's possible for parsing to fail
  219. # [05:03] <Hixie> different browsers differ on #2
  220. # [05:03] <Hixie> it would be good to make an executive decision on 2 early on since it would inform feedback on the algorithms
  221. # [05:03] <Hixie> and will affect other specs the most
  222. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> yeah, knew that fail part from talking with Adam and perusing the Webkit test cases
  223. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> OK
  224. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> (about the executive decision)
  225. # [05:04] <Hixie> also if you can sever any ties to the URL RFCs i think everyone's life in #whatwg will be easier on the long run :-)
  226. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> oh
  227. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> OK
  228. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> will try to do that then
  229. # [05:05] <Hixie> well i expect that's politically too difficult to do
  230. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> well, we can take that as a challenge, then, I guess
  231. # [05:05] <Hixie> hah
  232. # [05:05] <Hixie> it would mean adding a whole bit about authoring conformance criteria and semantics
  233. # [05:05] <Hixie> so it's also quite a bunch of work
  234. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> oh
  235. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> that doesn't sound like fun
  236. # [05:06] <Hixie> it would have the advantage of finishing the dichotomy of IRI vs URI
  237. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
  238. # [05:06] <Hixie> yeah it wouldn't be fun
  239. # [05:06] <Hixie> why do you think i deferred to the rfcs :_P
  240. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> heh
  241. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> plan is for me and Anne to work on this when he gets back next month
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  243. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> hopefully he might find it slightly more fun than working on the Encodings spec
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  245. # [05:08] <Hixie> hah
  246. # [05:08] <Hixie> it's like a hot potato
  247. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> heh
  248. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> yeah, hoping to just end it
  249. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> it's been fun but 3 years of hot potato is probably enough .. the novelty of it wears off a bit
  250. # [05:10] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@c-98-207-157-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  251. # [05:10] <Hixie> 3?
  252. # [05:10] <Hixie> we first started speccing url parsing more than half a decade ago
  253. # [05:10] <Hixie> no?
  254. # [05:10] <Hixie> maybe it just feels that long
  255. # [05:11] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  256. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> I mean the more recent related drama with the Bearded Ones about it
  257. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> metaphorically (neck)bearded
  258. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> which I metaphorically count myself to be a junior member of
  259. # [05:14] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@213.87.241.51)
  260. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> I've just not yet achieved anywhere near that level of ability for how-many-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin discussion
  261. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> anyway
  262. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> we will make it right eventually
  263. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> along with other needed stuff
  264. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> though hoping that Anne's current enthusiasm doesn't wane
  265. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> and he doesn't get distracted by taking up model rocketry or something
  266. # [05:18] * Quits: snowfox (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: snowfox)
  267. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> though I have to say Anne has a way of doing spec writing that takes it down to the bone
  268. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: your specs have some personality
  269. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> one can feel the love
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  276. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ain't finding any open bugs assigned to Adam except https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10213
  277. # [05:38] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  278. # [05:39] * MikeSmith wonders if Adam might be using multiple addresses
  279. # [05:48] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18)
  280. # [05:50] <jamesr> hmm. question: i have a page.html and page.css. in page.html within an inline <svg> element i have a set of <pattern>s defined in a <defs> and a few <rect>s that are visible. in page.css, i have fill:url(#patternId) set for a few rect
  281. # [05:50] <jamesr> the patterns show up in webkit but not in gecko or presto
  282. # [05:51] <jamesr> is this user error or expected?
  283. # [05:51] <jamesr> specifying fill:blue or fill:hsl(5, 6, 6) works in all browsers
  284. # [05:52] <shepazu> jamesr: have you tried fill:url(page.html#patternId) ?
  285. # [05:52] * jamesr tries
  286. # [05:53] <jamesr> aha! that works
  287. # [05:53] <jamesr> what if i wanted to move these patterns to an external svg to reuse? would that work?
  288. # [05:53] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: miketaylr)
  289. # [05:53] <jamesr> also, where am i supposed to look this sort of thing up?
  290. # [05:53] <shepazu> nasty spec bug in CSS around relative uris in property values… I think roc's proposed a fix for that
  291. # [05:54] <roc> jamesr: that is a webkit bug I guess
  292. # [05:54] <jamesr> yeah looks like WK uses the wrong base
  293. # [05:54] <shepazu> jamesr: it should work, but I think WebKit is still waiting on a patch for that… and I don't know the status of external resources in SVG for Gecko
  294. # [05:55] <roc> external resources work fine in Gecko
  295. # [05:55] <shepazu> great
  296. # [05:55] <roc> in fact, that's what page.html#patternId will do
  297. # [05:55] <roc> I think it will reload page.html as an external resource
  298. # [05:55] <shepazu> ugh
  299. # [05:55] <roc> but I'm not 100% sure about that
  300. # [05:55] <roc> anyway
  301. # [05:55] <jamesr> roc: gecko has an ugly bug with tiling
  302. # [05:56] <roc> jamesr: you can put your resources in a style-resources.html file and reference that
  303. # [05:56] <roc> it would be kinda neat if you could have an XML island in your CSS file and reference resources there
  304. # [05:56] <roc> tiling bug? do tell
  305. # [05:56] <jamesr> ah, presto has the cracks too. i have a repeated diagnoal line
  306. # [05:57] <jamesr> aha! it only looks good in chrome because we don't AA the line at all
  307. # [05:57] <jamesr> in gecko/presto the line is antialiased and the ends of the line segment look different from the middle
  308. # [05:57] <roc> :-)
  309. # [05:57] <jamesr> so it doesn't tile correctly
  310. # [05:58] <jamesr> not sure if the way patterns repeat is supposed to be "raster a square, repeat" or something logical where the line is supposed to be continuous across tiles
  311. # [05:58] <roc> I believe it's the former
  312. # [05:58] <jamesr> do SVG specs punt on antialiasing behavior like CSS?
  313. # [05:58] <jamesr> and HTML?
  314. # [05:59] <roc> yes
  315. # [05:59] <roc> you don't really want rasterization to be locked into a spec, do you?
  316. # [06:01] <jamesr> as an implementor hell no
  317. # [06:02] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  318. # [06:03] <jamesr> well hurray! now my page works in gecko/presto but not webkit :)
  319. # [06:03] <shepazu> :(
  320. # [06:04] <shepazu> maybe you can patch webkit...
  321. # [06:04] <roc> if only you knew someone who was an awesome Webkit hacker!
  322. # [06:07] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  323. # [06:07] <jamesr> our svg impl is kind of ... unique
  324. # [06:07] <jamesr> pretty sure <text> in an external SVG still only works if the svg is loaded as an <object type="image/svg+xml">
  325. # [06:08] <shepazu> jamesr: you might look at this bug https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12499
  326. # [06:08] <shepazu> which someone is patching
  327. # [06:08] <jamesr> that's a scary low bug number
  328. # [06:09] <jamesr> my use case isn't related to <use> is it?
  329. # [06:10] <shepazu> not directly, probably not at all, but the external refs thing is what I was thinking of
  330. # [06:10] <jamesr> activity as of last week though
  331. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> didn't now webkit actually supported font-feature-settings. had thought it was just in gecko (and now trident)
  332. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> though apparently not supported on osx yet
  333. # [06:14] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@adsl-75-55-201-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  334. # [06:14] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  335. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69826#c0
  336. # [06:15] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  337. # [06:16] <jamesr> hm, but it works elsewhere?
  338. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> jamesr: yeah, apparently
  339. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> didn't know til I saw a G+ posting from IET about it today
  340. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> https://plus.google.com/108784309450471378435/posts/ZywfbW1MmJj
  341. # [06:20] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-viqnpalzfhiqpnrh) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  342. # [06:21] <jamesr> is the syntax from http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/01/09/css-corner-using-the-whole-font.aspx for real?
  343. # [06:21] <jamesr> "ss06" on; ?
  344. # [06:21] <jamesr> -ms-font-feature-settings: "c2sc" 1,"smcp" 1;
  345. # [06:22] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  346. # [06:22] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  347. # [06:23] * MikeSmith compares with https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/-moz-font-feature-settings
  348. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> hmm
  349. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> su
  350. # [06:24] <jamesr> so it's just a pass-through to the opentype API
  351. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> pp
  352. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> 
  353. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> 
  354. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> 
  355. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> oops
  356. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> yeah, but spec says the whole list is supposed to be quoted
  357. # [06:25] * Quits: KillerX_ (~anant@70-36-146-76.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: KillerX_)
  358. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> actually, no it doesn't
  359. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> <feature-tag-value> = <string> [ <integer> | on | off ]?
  360. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> and example: font-feature-settings: "smcp", "swsh" 2;
  361. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> at least if that's actually the current spec
  362. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> which maybe it's ain't since it's under TR/
  363. # [06:28] * MikeSmith compares it to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/
  364. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> where's nattokirai when you need him?
  365. # [06:30] <nattokirai> hey
  366. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> yeah, editor's draft has it the same
  367. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#ltfeature-tag-valuegt
  368. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> nattokirai: hey man
  369. # [06:30] <nattokirai> neat, ms has font feature support
  370. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> Y NOT GECKO MATCH TEH SPEC?
  371. # [06:30] <nattokirai> but note that moz uses *old* syntax
  372. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> ah
  373. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> well
  374. # [06:30] <nattokirai> old syntax: font-feature-settings: "liga=1";
  375. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> yar
  376. # [06:31] <nattokirai> new syntax: font-feature-settings: "liga" 1;
  377. # [06:31] * Quits: shans (~shanestep@74.125.56.17) (Quit: shans)
  378. # [06:32] <nattokirai> jamesr: it's a pass-thru to the shaping API
  379. # [06:32] <nattokirai> in the MS case, DirectWrite, in our case, the Harfbuzz shaping library
  380. # [06:32] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
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  383. # [06:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  384. # [06:36] <nattokirai> jamesr: but keep in mind that's the low-level feature mechanism
  385. # [06:36] * Joins: Obvious_MkII (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  386. # [06:36] <nattokirai> jamesr: there are higher-level properties that will expose access to all the commonly used features
  387. # [06:37] <jamesr> i don't know anything about shaping engines. it does look pretty ugly, though
  388. # [06:37] <nattokirai> yup
  389. # [06:38] <nattokirai> the higher-level properties are more CSS-like
  390. # [06:38] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  391. # [06:38] <nattokirai> e.g. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#font-variant-ligatures-prop
  392. # [06:39] <nattokirai> jamesr: note that in the spec, these can also be set within @font-face rules
  393. # [06:40] <nattokirai> jamesr: as a form of per-font default
  394. # [06:41] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr)
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  403. # [07:19] <hsivonen> annevk: do you know the answer to bz's question: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=716579#c8 ?
  404. # [07:21] * Quits: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143) (Quit: Leaving...)
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  406. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> nattokirai: so gecko doesn't rely on Core Text?
  407. # [07:22] <jamesr> what's tantek go by here?
  408. # [07:23] <nattokirai> MikeSmith: currently only for Indic scripts
  409. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> jamesr: usually "tantek"
  410. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> nattokirai: OK
  411. # [07:23] <jamesr> hm, guess he's not around
  412. # [07:23] <nattokirai> b/c OSX only has AAT fonts for Indic
  413. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> oh
  414. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> jamesr: yeah, he's not here super often
  415. # [07:24] <nattokirai> where AAT == Apple Advanced Typography
  416. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> or at least has not been so much in the past couple years
  417. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> though been around more recently
  418. # [07:24] <nattokirai> which is in many ways better then OpenType but no longer supported by font vendors
  419. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> I see
  420. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> nattokirai: I asked because the Core Text dependency seems to be what's complicating the WebKit implementation
  421. # [07:25] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  422. # [07:25] <nattokirai> yup
  423. # [07:25] <nattokirai> that's the webkit mo, to do text shaping via the os
  424. # [07:26] <nattokirai> and coretext support for opentype is somewhat limited
  425. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, I saw that in Kenichi's comment as well
  426. # [07:27] <nattokirai> you're looking at a bug somewhere?
  427. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> yeah, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69826#c0
  428. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> tradeoffs abound I guess
  429. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> it seems like the general Gecko approach is to minimize platform code as much as possible
  430. # [07:28] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com)
  431. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> is that right?
  432. # [07:31] <nattokirai> well, not entirely but in this case it makes everything simpler to do the shaping ourselves
  433. # [07:32] <nattokirai> osx support is limited and android non-existent
  434. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> ah
  435. # [07:33] <nattokirai> in particular, we wanted to avoid uniscribe on windows for security reasons
  436. # [07:33] <nattokirai> related to downloadable fonts
  437. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> oh
  438. # [07:33] <jamesr> like http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9221498/Duqu_exploits_same_Windows_font_engine_patched_last_month_Microsoft_confirms ?
  439. # [07:34] * Quits: shans (~shanestep@74.125.56.17) (Quit: shans)
  440. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> hmm
  441. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> jamesr: did MS actually patch that yet or not?
  442. # [07:35] <jamesr> i dunno, i don't follow that stuff terribly closely
  443. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> OK
  444. # [07:35] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: hij1nx)
  445. # [07:36] <jamesr> some people @google built http://code.google.com/p/ots/ to try to mitigate those sorts of issues on windows
  446. # [07:36] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  447. # [07:36] * MikeSmith takes a look
  448. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> hey it's tantek
  449. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> maybe
  450. # [07:37] <jamesr> tantek: yo!
  451. # [07:37] <tantek> hey MikeSmith you called?
  452. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> jamesr was looking for you
  453. # [07:37] <jamesr> just fyi and you may already know this, but google-chrome-browser.com is nothing to do with us
  454. # [07:38] <tantek> yeah it looked a little spammy but shall we say it's been hard to search for official chrome docs recently (perhaps due to the demotion of chrome sites due to the paid blogging fiasco?)
  455. # [07:38] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  456. # [07:38] <jamesr> i think only google.com/chrome was demoted, our developer documentation shouldn't have been hit
  457. # [07:39] <tantek> or perhaps there is no chrome documentation of beforeload
  458. # [07:39] <jamesr> most likely
  459. # [07:39] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  460. # [07:40] * Quits: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com) (Quit: schnoomac)
  461. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> so that site is from whoever https://twitter.com/#!/ChromeBrowser is
  462. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> which twitter account I seem to remember doing something obnoxious last year
  463. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> like, anti-Firefox and/or anti-IE trolling
  464. # [07:42] <jamesr> people spreading information is great but i don't want people getting confused, especially since it looks like deep links don't have the disclaimer that google-chrome-browser.com does
  465. # [07:44] * Joins: Obvious_MkII (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
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  468. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> cool to see mention there for Boris Zbarsky's $1000 security-bug bounty
  469. # [07:47] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  470. # [07:47] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@122.179.129.91)
  471. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> seems like it's not the first time he found one
  472. # [07:49] * Quits: Obvious_MkII (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  473. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> jamesr: so can OpenType sanitization be performed fast enough that it could be done in the browser?
  474. # [07:50] <annevk> hsivonen: replied
  475. # [07:51] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  476. # [07:51] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  477. # [07:52] <jamesr> MikeSmith: i'm not intimately familiar with it, but i don't think that this would be a super hot path
  478. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> I see
  479. # [07:54] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  480. # [07:55] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  481. # [07:59] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com)
  482. # [08:00] * hsivonen wonders how different UI Spanish is between Argentina, Chile and Mexico or how different UI Bengali is between India and Bangladesh
  483. # [08:00] <hsivonen> or how different UI English is between the UK and South Africa
  484. # [08:11] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  485. # [08:12] * Joins: eightfold (~eightfold@c213-89-124-64.bredband.comhem.se)
  486. # [08:13] <annevk> someone should HTTP behavior for data URLs
  487. # [08:13] <annevk> define /\
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  490. # [08:21] <annevk> http://blog.fonts.com/2012/01/09/monotype-imaging-and-google-collaborate-to-make-web-fonts-better/
  491. # [08:22] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Submission/MTX/ RF
  492. # [08:23] <annevk> lot of C code there
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  496. # [08:34] <hsivonen> I'm disappointed that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 doesn't link to a List of Numbered Rules
  497. # [08:36] <hsivonen> annevk: so we had to get everyone to deploy WOFF first
  498. # [08:38] <annevk> they seemed to have some kind of alliance with Microsoft before, kind of surprised this is announced jointly with Google
  499. # [08:38] <annevk> prolly some money involved
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  506. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> that looks like a genuine RF-for-any-possible-purpose license
  507. # [08:56] <tantek> hsivonen - here's a list of numbered rules: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition
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  510. # [09:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, looks great, although is 15% savings worth the added complexity? especially with a format documented as a bunch of C code...
  511. # [09:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: reminds me of webm, wonder if that has improved yet...
  512. # [09:01] <tantek> MikeSmith, would be nice if folks would simply pick a standard license like CC0/OWFa rather than something "that looks like a genuine RF-for-any-possible-purpose license"
  513. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, there's no real spec for webm yet afaik
  514. # [09:01] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  515. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> tantek: yeah, but large companies don't seem to do that
  516. # [09:02] <annevk> heh, twitter brought html5.org down?
  517. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> I guess the the existing webm implementation can count as the spec
  518. # [09:02] <annevk> ooh, it brought svn.whatwg.org down
  519. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> and for MTX too
  520. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, not sure but seems like
  521. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> due to the timing
  522. # [09:02] <Hixie> i didn't investigate closely what happened on my end
  523. # [09:03] <Hixie> so not sure
  524. # [09:03] <annevk> hmm, I wonder if caching is still turned on
  525. # [09:04] * hsivonen had forgotten about those numbered rules
  526. # [09:11] <annevk> hsivonen: fwiw; we've a patch for BOM overriding HTTP already
  527. # [09:11] <annevk> hsivonen: we = Opera
  528. # [09:12] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. I guess I should get around to writing one, too
  529. # [09:12] <hsivonen> annevk: for all file formats or just HTML?
  530. # [09:13] <annevk> hsivonen: all
  531. # [09:14] <annevk> hsivonen: though unlike WebKit we'd still allow user overrides
  532. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> man, twitter says 100+ people retweeted that e-mail regexp tweet
  533. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> in the wrong hands twitter is a dangerous weapon
  534. # [09:16] <divya> it is dangerous in all cases
  535. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> divya: twitter luvs you
  536. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> you should love it right back
  537. # [09:17] <divya> hahahah
  538. # [09:18] <divya> its so trivial to RT or say anything in 140 chars :(
  539. # [09:18] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.23.3)
  540. # [09:18] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  541. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> that's the fun of it!
  542. # [09:19] <divya> :)
  543. # [09:19] * Philip` looked at MTX a while ago, and decided that he hated it, since reverse-engineering incomplete fragments of untestable pseudo-C code doesn't sound like fun
  544. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> there you go, more fun
  545. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> in other news, there's now an actual Browser Automation API spec
  546. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> aka WebDriver
  547. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> (which name probably really needs to actually change to Browser Automation API)
  548. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/tip/webdriver-spec.html
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  551. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> Bah, respec
  552. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> respec needs love too
  553. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> the Web DOM Core specification ([DOM-LEVEL-3-CORE]).
  554. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> it needs our help to make itself better
  555. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> What the hell
  556. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> yeah, that needs to be fixed
  557. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty sure the default respec biblio thing is generated from a file at W3C that only lists TR docs
  558. # [09:23] <wilhelm> It's a very, very early draft. We have a F2F tomorrow where we'll do some real work on it. (c:
  559. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> hey it's wilhelm
  560. # [09:24] <wilhelm> Any and all feedback is very welcome.
  561. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> hope somebody and skype me into the meeting
  562. # [09:25] * wilhelm installs Skype.
  563. # [09:27] <wilhelm> Why do I need a native application for this? Hasn't someone made a web app yet? :P
  564. # [09:27] <wilhelm> Wait, perhaps Google+ works.
  565. # [09:28] <izhak> Guys, sorry for very simple stupid question, but is HTML5 is valid XML?
  566. # [09:28] <Ms2ger> No
  567. # [09:28] <tantek> depends on your HTML5
  568. # [09:28] <Hixie> depends what you mean by "HTML5"
  569. # [09:28] <tantek> :D
  570. # [09:28] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156)
  571. # [09:29] <tantek> izhak, I've got some HTML5 that's also valid XML on my site. but it takes some amount of work to pull that off.
  572. # [09:29] <izhak> and what do I mean by HTML5 ?
  573. # [09:29] <izhak> :D
  574. # [09:29] <jamesr> there are documents in the intersection, i believe
  575. # [09:29] <Hixie> generally speaking unless you have a pretty important reason for it you shouldn't really worry about XML when you're doing HTML
  576. # [09:30] <izhak> Can HTML5 be determined by a DTD?
  577. # [09:30] <Hixie> what do you mean by "determined"?
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  580. # [09:30] <izhak> Can we write such DTD which would be able to validate any HTML5 document?
  581. # [09:31] <izhak> Well, OK I think I understand now, I mean syntax.. HTML5 syntax
  582. # [09:32] <jamesr> no
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  584. # [09:33] <izhak> Is there any simple answer to the question, why not to use XHTML which is perfectly deterministic?
  585. # [09:34] <wilhelm> HTML is also perfectly deterministic.
  586. # [09:34] <wilhelm> And doesn't come with the disadvantages of XML.
  587. # [09:34] <izhak> wilhelm: it's not, I'm a complete newbie but it's not exactly
  588. # [09:34] <jamesr> what do you mean?
  589. # [09:35] <tantek> izhak, XHTML does not confer any advantages over XML-well-formed HTML5.
  590. # [09:35] <jamesr> there's a deterministic algorithm to decide if a given string of bytes is a valid HTML document, if that's what you mean
  591. # [09:35] <tantek> izhak - longer explanation of that here: http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
  592. # [09:35] <izhak> I mean it's very simple to find out relative layout of elements in XML, than in HTML
  593. # [09:36] <tantek> izhak, XML does not determine layout - CSS does that.
  594. # [09:37] <izhak> tantek: I mean nesting, closing etc
  595. # [09:37] <tantek> izhak - you can do the same with HTML5 - see my blog post.
  596. # [09:37] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  597. # [09:38] <izhak> Yeah, thanks, that was the text i was searching
  598. # [09:38] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: I think I got Google+ Hangouts to work. I'll invite you tomorrow morning. I'll be at the Google office 15-30 minutes before the meeting starts.
  599. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: OK
  600. # [09:38] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  601. # [09:38] <izhak> HTML 4 parser is a mess, while XML parser is pretty simple, tell me does HTML5 allow that mess also?
  602. # [09:39] <Philip`> Writing an HTML5 parser is more work than writing an XML parser (since HTML5 has more parsing rules), but very few people need to write parsers (and everyone else can reuse one written by someone else), whereas many people need to output HTML code, and guaranteeing the output is well-formed XML is extremely hard, so it doesn't make sense to choose the approach that simplifies parsers
  603. # [09:39] <izhak> Or it's as regorous as XML is
  604. # [09:40] <Hixie> Philip`: unless you're implementing the script stuff, i think it might actually be less work to do an HTML parser since with XML you don't have a spec to follow but instead have to determine it from the validity description
  605. # [09:40] <Philip`> izhak: HTML4 parsing is undefined; HTML5 parsing is specified precisely in complete detail
  606. # [09:40] <jamesr> writing an XML parser isn't exactly trivial
  607. # [09:41] <izhak> jamesr: relatively to html4's it's just a toytaks
  608. # [09:41] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156)
  609. # [09:41] <izhak> *toytask
  610. # [09:41] <jamesr> given that html4 parsing is undefined, it's not really a valid comparison
  611. # [09:42] <izhak> jamesr: actually it is cause we actually have html4 parsers
  612. # [09:42] <jamesr> not interoperable ones
  613. # [09:42] <Hixie> technically HTML4 parsing is defined, in SGML. not that such a parser would actually work on the web ;-)
  614. # [09:42] <Philip`> (HTML5's specified parsing algorithm is a crazy mess, but that doesn't matter since you can just implement what the spec says and not worry about it)
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  618. # [09:44] <izhak> Unfortunately we've got lot's of html4 pages all over the web and they seem not to be going to leave in a nearest future as in farest
  619. # [09:45] <Philip`> Fortunately HTML5 parsers can parse all those HTML4 pages
  620. # [09:45] <Hixie> the HTML standard today handles all previous versions of HTML (or more precisely, all existing HTML content)
  621. # [09:45] <izhak> So it's not rigorous and allow writing html4 stuff
  622. # [09:46] <izhak> And if it allows people will use that
  623. # [09:46] <Philip`> If by "not rigorous" you mean "not fragile", then yes :-)
  624. # [09:46] <Hixie> what do you mean by "rigorous"?
  625. # [09:46] <izhak> vicious circle
  626. # [09:46] <Hixie> and what do you mean by "allow"?
  627. # [09:47] <izhak> I mean determinism
  628. # [09:47] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Quit: mishunov)
  629. # [09:47] <izhak> Oh I see, my English is very bad
  630. # [09:48] <izhak> rigorous = strict, well defined, deterministic
  631. # [09:50] * Joins: virtuelv (virtuelv__@nat/opera/x-usjfrmemdgnhfcis)
  632. # [09:50] <izhak> Anyways, it seems that I understand now, w3c is going by a strict, ideal but unachievable way to switch the world to strict xml, and you guys going by more realistic way
  633. # [09:50] <Philip`> The HTML5 parsing algorithm isn't strict (it allows any random stream of bytes as input and won't produce an error and abort) but is well defined and deterministic
  634. # [09:51] <Philip`> (There are multiple implementations that produce precisely the same output for any random stream of bytes)
  635. # [09:51] <roc> modulo bugs
  636. # [09:52] <izhak> Philip`: hmm, great
  637. # [09:52] * Ms2ger wonders why Brad Kemper used GB2312
  638. # [09:53] <izhak> Philip`: does html 5 parser do charset normalization?
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  641. # [09:55] <izhak> "The HTML5 parsing algorithm isn't strict (it allows any random stream of bytes as input and won't produce an error and abort) but is well defined and deterministic" - cool! This sentence makes me feel good:D
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  643. # [09:56] <jamesr> roc: in gecko when script force a style resolution+layout, do y'all ever resolve styles for only a subset of the document or do you always resolve the whole thing?
  644. # [09:57] <Ms2ger> And <di>, woot
  645. # [09:57] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4) (Excess Flood)
  646. # [09:57] <roc> the whole thing
  647. # [09:58] <roc> I can think of lots of optimizations I'd rather try than changing that :-)
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  651. # [09:58] <Philip`> izhak: What do you mean by charset normalization?
  652. # [09:59] <jamesr> seems scary (and normally not worth it)
  653. # [09:59] <Philip`> izhak: (The parser basically just figures out the character encoding somehow and decodes the input, and then the rest of the algorithm deals purely with Unicode strings)
  654. # [09:59] <roc> I'm sure you could create a benchmark where it would be totally worth it
  655. # [09:59] <roc> please don't!
  656. # [09:59] <izhak> Philip`: yes, that what I meant:)
  657. # [10:00] <izhak> Philip`: is it defined in what particular encoding?
  658. # [10:00] <izhak> I mean utf-8 or utf-16
  659. # [10:00] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  660. # [10:00] <wilhelm> Ms2ger: Re: the DOM3 reference, please prod the editors and/or public-test-infra@w3.org. (c:
  661. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> Oh, and "Web DOM Core" is two Microsoft interventions out of date
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  664. # [10:03] <Philip`> izhak: http://whatwg.org/html#determining-the-character-encoding says how to determine what encoding to use when decoding
  665. # [10:03] <izhak> Philip`: thanks
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  667. # [10:09] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  668. # [10:10] <jgraham> wilhelm: Isn't it public-browser-tools-testing that one should prod?
  669. # [10:10] * Joins: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-zwwzaydxdepnqevg)
  670. # [10:11] <jgraham> (gotta love the short and easy to remember email addresses)
  671. # [10:12] * hsivonen notes that a conforming XML parser has to support all the internal subset goo
  672. # [10:13] <wilhelm> jgraham: Eh, probably.
  673. # [10:13] * wilhelm subscribes. :P
  674. # [10:14] <hsivonen> izhak: for both HTML and XML, character encodings are a loophole that you can drive a truck through
  675. # [10:15] <hsivonen> izhak: in the sense that neither HTML nor XML parsing is well-defined when an ill-defined character encoding is used
  676. # [10:15] <hsivonen> and the set of available encodings isn't locked down by either spec
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  678. # [10:16] <hsivonen> see http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/10/17/UTF8-plus for an example of one of the editors of XML trying to exploit the definitional loophole left in XML
  679. # [10:16] <izhak> hsivonen: I do believe that what you say is far from real world nowadays
  680. # [10:17] <hsivonen> izhak: see the log of this channel for annevk's findings of differences in how different browser implement various character encodings
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  682. # [10:19] <hsivonen> izhak: once the character encoding has been dealt with, HTML parsing is actually more deterministic than XML parsing, because XML parsing still involves an optional feature that HTML doesn't have: whether or not external entities are processed
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  684. # [10:21] <hsivonen> since both HTML and XML share the character encoding hole but HTML doesn't have the optional feature that external entities are for XML, it's a myth these days that XML is somehow more deterministic
  685. # [10:23] <izhak> hsivonen: tha fact that html5 parses both html4 mess and xml still being deterministic is enough for me to love it:), concerning what you say, I think charset problems are not really a problems today, all stuff is quite worked over, waddya think
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  687. # [10:24] <hsivonen> izhak: unfortunately, for implementations, charset problems are still problems today. for authors, they aren't when authors stick to UTF-8
  688. # [10:24] <hsivonen> and declare that they are sticking to UTF-8
  689. # [10:26] <izhak> well, that's what I didn't think about, thanks, I'll learn
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  698. # [10:47] <izhak> Hah, eventually it became clear to me.. That's just a question of "Break or not to break?" (on error). Such a thin border, and yes what to do if not to break:).
  699. # [10:47] <izhak> tantek, cool article thanks
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  754. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> matjas: I'm wondering what mail clients actually support IDN mail addresses yet
  755. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> re: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15489
  756. # [14:11] <matjas> what do you mean by “support”? displaying the email address’s Unicode form as opposed to its Punycoded ASCII representation?
  757. # [14:11] <matjas> or, like, “work”
  758. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> yeah, "work" -- as in, allowing you to actually send an e-mail message to such an address
  759. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> allowing to put the e-mail address into a To field in the UI for the mail client
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  768. # [15:01] <annevk> replacing a SSD apparently takes a while...
  769. # [15:01] <annevk> meanwhile using my old T60 with Ubuntu
  770. # [15:01] <annevk> good times
  771. # [15:01] <annevk> except for the keyboard, that sucks
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  784. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> matjas: every mail client I've tried so far barfs on IDN email addresses when I put them in a To field
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  786. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: T60 is IBM laptop?
  787. # [15:27] <annevk> effectively, it's from lenovo
  788. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  789. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> you like the keyboard?
  790. # [15:27] <annevk> but carries the old IBM ThinkPad logo
  791. # [15:27] <annevk> it's kind of broken, that's the problem :)
  792. # [15:28] <annevk> Enter no longer gives tactile feedback for instance
  793. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> oh
  794. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> just pretend it's a soft keyboard, and then it's fine
  795. # [15:30] <matjas> MikeSmith: I don’t really see why that matters though. Why wait until email clients fix their stuff to fix the HTML spec?
  796. # [15:30] <annevk> I guess, it's no big deal
  797. # [15:30] <matjas> MikeSmith: are you thinking of <form action=mailto:>?
  798. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> matjas: no, I'm thinking input@type=email
  799. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> matjas: and maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but I'm not sure there's anything that needs fixing in the spec because the current restrictions are by design
  800. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> that is, not an oversight
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  802. # [15:34] <matjas> MikeSmith: What’s the reason foo@mañana.com is invalid while foo@xn--maana-pta.com isn’t? Any pointers?
  803. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> no pointers
  804. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> maybe others on the channel know
  805. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> annevk maybe
  806. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> as far as the rationale
  807. # [15:37] <annevk> not sure, I always found it slightly confusing and I think there might still be issues with both url and email
  808. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> I assume the rationale is that it doesn't make much sense for the spec and browsers to recognize IDN e-mail addresses as valid for input@type=email if existing MUAs don't recognize them in their corresponding input mechanisms
  809. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> and I don't know why existing mail clients don't yet recognize IDN e-mail in their input fields, I don't know
  810. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> but I'd assume it's not due just to collective laziness
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  845. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, the idea for input type=email is that the actual value is the punycode version, and the UA shows the Unicode version in its UI
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  847. # [16:15] <zewt> i'd think it'd make more sense to have the unicode version in mailto:, and have the MUA encode it when it receives it
  848. # [16:16] <zewt> eg. aim for users never having to type or see the encoded version
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  851. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: really?
  852. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> See the spec, there's a note
  853. # [16:17] * MikeSmith looks
  854. # [16:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: is it the same for URLs?
  855. # [16:18] <zewt> (just like you should be able to use unicode in URLs without encoding it first--no idea if you can, not familiar enough with that yet)
  856. # [16:18] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  857. # [16:18] <zewt> (but if you can't, I'd consider it a dead-end broken i18n effort...)
  858. # [16:19] <annevk> I don't think you can trust the MUA to handle non-ASCII
  859. # [16:19] <annevk> but the MUA can translate it back in its own UI
  860. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> so I find "User agents may transform the value for display and editing; in particular, user agents should convert punycode in the value to IDN in the display and vice versa."
  861. # [16:19] <zewt> annevk: the browser can always encode it before handing it off to the MUA
  862. # [16:19] <zewt> at navigation time, i mean
  863. # [16:19] <zewt> i guess copy-to-clipboard is less clear
  864. # [16:20] <zewt> (but also less important)
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  866. # [16:24] <zewt> (the one or two times I've seen people using IDN addresses in email it made me think "that guy's using a feature long before it's ready", since it just showed up encoded in gmail, in quote headers, etc)
  867. # [16:26] <zewt> by the way, doesn't Android have a special keyboard layout for email addresses? (eg. @ available without shifting)
  868. # [16:27] <zewt> that seems like a more day-to-day useful use case for type=email
  869. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> Gmail doesn't actually let you enter IDN e-mail addresses into its UI
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  871. # [16:27] <annevk> that's more of an inputmode feature tied to type=email
  872. # [16:28] <annevk> we don't want to introduce types for all the inputmode features we might have at some point
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  874. # [16:31] <zewt> i'd expect it to depend on whether it's actually orthogonal to input mode or not
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  876. # [16:32] <zewt> some input modes might make sense with textarea, I suppose
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  887. # [17:00] <bga_> http://psicomatico.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/jqueryninja.jpg
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  889. # [17:01] <ksweeney> haha
  890. # [17:01] <ksweeney> shouldn't the jquery ninja be chaining everything in there?
  891. # [17:02] <bga_> only who has black belt :)
  892. # [17:03] * smaug____ so much prefers Javascript Ninja
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  894. # [17:06] <AryehGregor> smaug____, you and I don't have to write complicated webpages that work in a large range of browsers on a regular basis.
  895. # [17:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it intentional that document.close() doesn't return early if document.close() has been called?
  896. # [17:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, should each document.close() call attempt to tokenize?
  897. # [17:08] <smaug____> AryehGregor: yeah. Fortunately I don't need to use buggy and memory hungry js libraries to support multiple browsers
  898. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> Yep, me either.
  899. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> Lucky for us.
  900. # [17:09] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You have to write evil webpages that break a large range of bgrowsers though. Surely that must count for something?
  901. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> jgraham, yes. It would be much harder if I had to use jQuery.
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  903. # [17:10] <jgraham> If you start using jQuery for testcases I might have to arrange to have you destroyed
  904. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> I'm going to submit some Mozilla tests that use $() just to get your blood pressure up :)
  905. # [17:11] * hsivonen notes that Mozilla uses mochikit for tests and mochikit browser-sniffs
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  907. # [17:11] * jgraham knows :(
  908. # [17:12] <Ms2ger> jgraham, did that make it hard to steal our tests? :)
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  914. # [17:26] * AryehGregor adds tests for case-sensitivity of all the keywords used in CSS 2D Transforms
  915. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> It turns out having been a math major is really useful for anything involving 2D graphics.
  916. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> Like, knowing what linear transforms are and how they relate to matrices.
  917. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> Although I have yet to find a use for, say, Jordan normal forms or Perron's theorem.
  918. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> (Jordan normal forms are useless in practice because nondiagonalizable matrices have codimension zero in the space of matrices, I guess)
  919. # [17:34] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't know that we made a serious attempt to import lots of Mochitests
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  921. # [17:38] <gsnedders> The attempt I made wasn't very serious, at least.
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  934. # [18:04] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  983. # [20:27] <annevk> XML Prague wants Docbook
  984. # [20:27] <annevk> euh
  985. # [20:27] <annevk> DocBook
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  991. # [20:36] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  992. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Suppose I have an inner div nested inside the outer div, and the inner div has a nonzero left/right margin. Is there any way to get their border boxes to coincide?
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  994. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> (yes, I know this is a weird question)
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  996. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Negative.. Padding, no, that wouldn't work
  997. # [20:43] * AryehGregor has developed doubts regarding the sanity of what he's currently trying to do
  998. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Yeah, you can't have negative padding or border, so . . .
  999. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Well, I could use relative positioning or something, of course. I mean in normal flow.
  1000. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Can you add a third div? :)
  1001. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Possibly. How would that help?
  1002. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> Put it in between and give it negative margins
  1003. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> Sneaky.
  1004. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> The universal solution to CSS problems-- add another div
  1005. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> It just occurred to me, though, that it's enough that the border boxes' *centers* coincide. I just want the transform-origin to be the same.
  1006. # [20:45] * AryehGregor tries that
  1007. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> The centers shouldn't be hard
  1008. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Match up padding-left on the outer with margin-right on the inner, no?
  1009. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> I'll just put a few pixels of padding on the outer divs.
  1010. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> That should do it.
  1011. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> (I actually have three nested divs)
  1012. # [20:48] * Wesley- is now known as WesleyL
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  1016. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Oh, no, wait. I actually do need the border boxes the same actual size if I want percentages to work right.
  1017. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Or I can adjust those by hand.
  1018. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Feh.
  1019. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> I guess that's what I'll do.
  1020. # [20:53] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  1021. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Bah. Complicated.
  1022. # [20:54] * AryehGregor is getting a headache
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  1027. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Okay, I finally think I have it. Sheesh.
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  1029. # [21:10] <annevk> hsivonen: with file upload and a custom scheme the file upload field jumps down visually in Opera when you hit validate
  1030. # [21:10] <annevk> hsivonen: on validator.nu
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  1044. # [22:15] <vishal3212> hello
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  1059. # [22:43] <jgraham> Random observation of the day: half the web seems to be articles abou hiring developers, but I have never seen a single article abot hiring testers
  1060. # [22:43] <jgraham> *about
  1061. # [22:44] <jgraham> That isn't apropos anything in particular, it's just a thing I noticed
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  1092. # Session Close: Wed Jan 11 00:00:01 2012

The end :)