/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-11 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jan 11 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:15] <TabAtkins> In the XML serialization, are all the entities still defined and available?
# [00:15] <TabAtkins> Or just the XML entities?
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# [00:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what other kinds of entities would you mean?
# [00:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: oh you mean like the mathml ones?
# [00:45] <Hixie> TabAtkins: there's some DOCTYPEs you can specify that magically include the others
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# [01:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Thinks like   arent' defined for general XML, right?
# [01:12] <Hixie> right, only 5 are
# [01:12] <Hixie> lt gt amp apos quot
# [01:12] <Hixie> but if you use the magical dtd string you can use the others
# [01:12] <Hixie> at least in xhtml uas
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# [01:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, theoretically, though general XML processors don't really process the external subset.
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# [01:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, actually, often they do, by downloading it from w3.org.
# [01:22] <AryehGregor> IIRC, when I wrote a Python program using some built-in XML processor it did that.
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# [04:47] <MikeSmith> I see File API tests at http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/#fileapi but not in dvcs.w3.org yet
# [04:48] <MikeSmith> wonder if I'm looking in the wrong place
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# [07:21] <Hixie> man, <audio> on Mac Chrome 16 is a disaster
# [07:21] <Hixie> it skips, it loads slowly even from the cache, it crashes...
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# [07:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that's because they not using Native HTML5
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# [07:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: seriously you find it works worse than in other browsers?
# [07:37] <Hixie> worse than firefox, anyway
# [07:39] <MikeSmith> was it better for and regressed?
# [07:39] <Hixie> dunno
# [07:39] <Hixie> haven't tried it til now
# [07:40] <Hixie> i'm just creating a few dozen <audio>s and whenever i need the particular sound, i set currentTime=0 and call play()
# [07:40] <Hixie> the web audio api would be a better fit, if it was more mature
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# [07:45] <MikeSmith> in other news I see the sync XHR changes have broken the Web
# [07:46] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=716765
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# [08:21] <cyclicflux> Good Evening All!!!
# [08:21] <cyclicflux> I had a quick question. I was wondering if there were a good free dyndns alternative for just basic domain registration with dynamic ip(dhcp). I was using Dyndns first, however it appears that they recently just changed their overall policies, and service packaging. Thus, no longer offering the free-option.Any thoughts??
# [08:21] <cyclicflux> They now only have a 1-month free trial and then one must pay, this is just for personal use, and is used by 15 different people or so at max.
# [08:21] <cyclicflux> Its not like it needs to be the premo premo caviar of premium DNS accounts and dynamic domain name hosting, with unlimited access/etc... Just something simple
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# [09:14] <MikeSmith> man http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions has certainly blossomed into something beautiful
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# [11:20] <hsivonen> and there's a new antipattern: http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/msg/6dd73a0716af9d43
# [11:21] <hsivonen> 'For instance, today the news is about "www.cuttherope.ie". Which, after you play a few
# [11:21] <hsivonen> levels, says: "To play this [level], come back in Internet Explorer 9 and pin the game to your taksbar!".'
# [11:21] <Ms2ger> Well, it's an IE promotional site, what'd you expect?
# [11:23] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: based on previous behavior of Web developers, I fully expect bsmedberg's concern to be warranted
# [11:23] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [11:23] <jgraham> It's just keeping up with the Jonses. Or in this case Chromeses
# [11:23] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: that is, if you let Web apps query if they are pinned/installed, they will refuse to function or they will be annoying if you don't install/pin
# [11:24] <Ms2ger> Indeed
# [11:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: so far, the Chrome anti-pattern I've seen is the old 90s pattern "only works in Chrome"
# [11:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't seen "this free app won't work when navigated to normally. you have to install it via Chrome Web Store"
# [11:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: though I'd be entirely unsurprised if such a case already existed
# [11:26] <jgraham> I thought I had seen things that had to be installed via the web store
# [11:26] <jgraham> But I might be wrong
# [11:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. maybe I just haven't been following closely enough
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# [12:39] <roc> Hixie: I think the optimal API for playing a bunch of preloaded sounds is to have a bunch of <audio preload> elements, then do audioElem.cloneNode().play(). it's super-simple and can be implemented very efficiently.
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# [14:17] <niloy> is there a standard on form serializing?
# [14:18] <Ms2ger> HTML
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# [14:27] <niloy> Ms2ger, I searched for "html form serializing standard", but cant find any good link
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# [14:27] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm?
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# [14:29] <niloy> Ms2ger, thanks!
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# [14:34] <niloy> Ms2ger, the decision to intepret name values with [] as array is non standard?
# [14:35] <Ms2ger> Might be
# [14:36] <niloy> okay
# [14:38] <Philip`> In Perl's CGI modules, the interpretation depends on whether you access the parameter in scalar context or list context, rather than on the name of the parameter
# [14:39] <Philip`> (That seems more sensible since the data types are determined by the code, not by potentially user-controlled strings)
# [14:39] <niloy> okay, so this is server dependent, wanted to confirm that
# [14:39] <Philip`> (although some people might consider context-dependent functions to be an unsensible idea in general)
# [14:50] <jgraham> Philip`: No, really?
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# [14:56] <Philip`> jgraham: Yeah, some people are narrow-minded like that and don't appreciate intuitive natural-language features being used in programming languages
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# [14:58] <Ms2ger> dt, dd { margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0 } /* opera 3.50 */
# [14:58] <Ms2ger> It's good to see the W3C cares about Opera
# [14:58] <Ms2ger> (http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-ED.css)
# [14:59] <Philip`> Then they hack around their limitation by copying the context into the function name, so users have to remember twice as many function names (querySelector vs querySelectorAll etc) and have a greater chance of accidentally putting a list into a scalar variable or vice versa
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# [15:12] <jgraham> Philip`: I think holding up W3C specs as examples of API design is just trolling :)
# [15:19] <Philip`> jgraham: Same problem in e.g. Python's cgi API, where you can use getvalue() (where if you forget to check isinstance and "a curious user appends another user=foo pair to the query string, then the script would crash") or getfirst() or getlist()
# [15:20] <Philip`> since it's impossible to have a single function that automatically returns the data type you're expecting
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# [15:40] <wilhelm> AryehGregor: I see you have a draft spec of innerText. Is the one from February 2011 the most recent one available?
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# [15:42] <smaug____> or is the innerText nowadays in parsing spec? Ms2ger ?
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# [16:08] <jgraham> Philip`: If the alternative is that I have to learn three different behaviours for each function and closely inspect the context each time to work out which one it will use, I think I prefer the option that makes things explicit :)
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# [16:12] <AryehGregor> wilhelm, sounds right, but be aware of the large quantities of discussion about it. Basically I specced innerText as textContent plus minimal munging for compat, based on what I was told about Opera's implementation. IE and WebKit both have ludicrously complicated implementations which are probably hopeless to spec.
# [16:14] <AryehGregor> innerText didn't make it into some spec like HTML?
# [16:14] * AryehGregor looks
# [16:14] <Philip`> jgraham: Only two behaviours (scalar vs list context), and distinguishing "$name = $cgi->param('name')" from "@names = $cgi->param('name')" doesn't take hugely close inspection :-)
# [16:14] <AryehGregor> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13145
# [16:15] <Philip`> although when someone writes "$num_names = () = $cgi->param('name')" you would be justified in choosing to vigorously educate them
# [16:15] <wilhelm> AryehGregor: The reason for why I'm asking is that WebDriver is being specced now. This API has a feature that allows one to get the text of any element. We're not sure what's the more sensible approach – deferring to browsers, just using innerHTML or define an algorithm for doing it in the WebDriver layer.
# [16:15] <AryehGregor> Hixie closed it REMIND.
# [16:15] <wilhelm> Thanks for the link. (c:
# [16:15] <jgraham> wilhelm: What do you mean "text"?
# [16:15] <AryehGregor> wilhelm, the most sensible approach is to use either textContent or innerHTML. innerText has zero interop. There is no usable plaintext-conversion algorithm specced anywhere in the web platform; different browsers do it entirely differently.
# [16:16] <jgraham> Or, what AryehGregor said
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# [16:17] <AryehGregor> All browsers have one that they use for Selection.prototype.toString, but it's not even remotely interoperable.
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# [16:17] <jgraham> The only obvious problem with textContent is that it doesn't know about alt text
# [16:17] <AryehGregor> As far as I can tell, in at least some browsers it's not even a DOM-based function, it depends on the layout layer somehow.
# [16:17] <Philip`> Most authors don't know about alt text either so that's okay
# [16:17] <AryehGregor> WebKit's does scary stuff like respecting text-transform.
# [16:17] <AryehGregor> jgraham, there are lots of other problems. For instance, foobar -> "foobar" instead of "foo\nbar".
# [16:18] <AryehGregor> And foo\nbar -> "foo\nbar" instead of "foo bar".
# [16:18] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That isn't obviously a problem for wilhelm's use case
# [16:18] <AryehGregor> That's just the tip of the iceberg.
# [16:18] * AryehGregor has no idea what wilhelm's use-case actually is
# [16:18] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It is presumably mainly for checking that some subtree contains some pre-known text
# [16:19] <wilhelm> Yes, what jgraham said. The use case is fuzzy.
# [16:19] <AryehGregor> Then innerHTML or textContent is what I'd recommend.
# [16:19] * jgraham would strongly recommend textContent
# [16:19] * wilhelm looks up textContent.
# [16:19] <jgraham> Unless there is really a need for anything more complex
# [16:20] * wilhelm defers to dawagner.
# [16:20] <dawagner> AryehGregor: We have a javascript implementation which basically does exactly what's spec'd in http://aryeh.name/spec/innertext/innertext.html because it's the exact behaviour we want in webdriver; "what a user sees"
# [16:21] <AryehGregor> dawagner, well, okay, but it's only a vague approximation of what the user sees. If my spec was useful to you, though, that's nice.
# [16:21] <AryehGregor> But I wouldn't add anything like that to an actual spec.
# [16:21] <AryehGregor> There are just way too many heuristics involved.
# [16:22] <dawagner> As in, you wouldn't bother trying to specify what innerText does, or you wouldn't try to specify something which acted similarly to innerText but made no references to innerText itself?
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# [16:26] <AryehGregor> dawagner, the latter. Or if I did that it would be with extreme caution. It's impossible to get it actually right -- just think about foobarbaz, say. Or try absolute or relative positioning. HTML is just a richer medium than plaintext.
# [16:27] <AryehGregor> So if you try to get elaborate, you have to draw the line somewhere, and it's very hard to say where a good place to draw the line is.
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# [16:27] <dawagner> Ok :) Thanks for the advice
# [16:27] <AryehGregor> You can always do a bit better.
# [16:27] <AryehGregor> So this is something that's maybe best left to JS libraries, which don't have such strict compat requirements.
# [16:28] <AryehGregor> So they can afford to incrementally improve their algorithms over time.
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# [16:29] <Philip`> textContentAsRenderedByElinksWithAddedCSSSupport
# [16:31] <wilhelm> AryehGregor: Here's the spec in question, by the way: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/515b648d58ff/webdriver-spec.html
# [16:31] <wilhelm> A very, very early draft.
# [16:31] <AryehGregor> k.
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# [16:32] <wilhelm> Somewhat interoperable implementations already exist. So it's a matter of speccing the running code in a not-too-insane way. (c:
# [16:32] <dawagner> And the implementing code: https://code.google.com/p/selenium/source/browse/trunk/javascript/atoms/dom.js#689
# [16:33] <dawagner> (Which is really quite inefficient)
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# [16:39] <Ms2ger> The plan for innerText is still to ignore it and hope it goes away
# [16:40] <smaug____> Ms2ger: oh.
# [16:40] <smaug____> Ms2ger: have we added warning to remove it ?
# [16:40] <smaug____> hmm
# [16:40] <Ms2ger> We don't support it
# [16:40] <smaug____> ah, right :)
# [16:40] <smaug____> good !
# [16:40] <smaug____> wilhelm: ^
# [16:40] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, I still think you should at least support a bare-bones version like I've suggested.
# [16:41] <AryehGregor> Similar to Opera.
# [16:41] <Ms2ger> "we", now ;)
# [16:41] <AryehGregor> Bah.
# [16:41] <AryehGregor> I'm still not a Gecko developer.
# [16:41] <smaug____> Why should support for innerText be added anywhere ?
# [16:41] <AryehGregor> smaug____, because some pages depend on it. I've found East Asian sites that are buggy on Firefox (and only Firefox) because they assume innerText support.
# [16:41] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You get paid and Ms2ger doesn't (I think), though
# [16:41] <AryehGregor> I posted that on the bug.
# [16:42] <AryehGregor> jgraham, he still has more say in Gecko development than I do.
# [16:42] <AryehGregor> I'm not actually paid to do Gecko development anyway, at least not primarily.
# [16:42] <jgraham> Yeah, but they own your soul more than his :)
# [16:42] <smaug____> AryehGregor: you could be :p
# [16:43] <AryehGregor> smaug____, I expect I'll do some.
# [16:43] <wilhelm> smaug____: Right. So deferring to innerText for Gecko is a no-go anyway, then.
# [16:44] <AryehGregor> wilhelm, you could defer to Selection.prototype.toString, which everyone implements in some form.
# [16:45] <AryehGregor> In WebKit it's basically the same as innerText, in everything else it's different (but similar idea to IE/WebKit innerText).
# [16:45] <wilhelm> Interesting.
# [16:46] <dawagner> AryehGregor: Alas we're looking for something which is well defined to be the same, rather than something which is defined everywhere
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> However, I still recommend treating all this stuff as a minefield and staying as far away as possible.
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> dawagner, then your options are either textContent, or innerHTML, or make something up.
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> (innerHTML is actually not interoperable right now, but there is a spec and Gecko and WebKit mostly follow it)
# [16:47] <dawagner> We've made something up :) It doesn't strictly speaking have to be "correct", but we care about well defined and universal, which our javascript is
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> (although there are bugs, like <xmp> in Gecko)
# [16:47] <dawagner> (It would be nice if the browsers provided all of those properties, but hey, they're browsers, we're used to that!)
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> (I love <xmp>, it messes so many things up because no one thinks about it)
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# [17:41] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [17:43] <Ms2ger> Good afternoon, dglazkov
# [17:43] <dglazkov> and what wonderful afternoon it is
# [17:45] <dglazkov> TabAtkins is giggling in his cube.
# [17:46] <Ms2ger> tmi
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# [18:16] <dglazkov> btw, I wrote a shadow DOM example/recipe that's also a bit of Big Bang Theory fanfic: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/samples/contacts-widget.html
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# [18:28] <ksweeney> this is a really great example dglazkov!
# [18:29] <dglazkov> ksweeney: yay!
# [18:29] <jgraham> dglazkov: I await the gloriuos future where all people with advanced science degrees are reduced to solving dull enterprise problems :)
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# [18:30] <dglazkov> jgraham: :D I worry we have already arrived.
# [18:33] <jgraham> Well I guess that's a bit unfair. Howard only has a masters in Engineering :)
# [18:33] <jgraham> Unrelatedly, it is a nice example
# [18:35] <dglazkov> First time I ever (I think) used ins and del in markup.
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# [18:36] <jgraham> Things that upset me today: developers who think that I want to install node.js and run some build process to use their library
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# [18:37] <dglazkov> heh. node.js as make?
# [18:38] <jgraham> Oh, wait, I think I found a download link. Hint: if there is an esy solution and a really-fucking-complex solution, you should probably make the easy one more obvious than the other one
# [18:39] <jgraham> At least I already have make installed
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# [18:39] <jgraham> and I am likely to find the right version of make in my package manager
# [18:39] <jgraham> Rather than finding that I can only install version 0.4 but this script needs 0.6 so I have to build from source
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# [19:08] <AryehGregor> So it looks like 3D transforms are only supported in IE10, which is only supported on Windows 8 Developer Preview, which I can't readily install on my Windows VM. So I guess I'm testing 3D Transforms only in Gecko and WebKit.
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# [19:20] <Velmont> AryehGregor: I have the same problem only for other technologies.
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# [20:04] <Hixie> roc: (re <audio>.cloneNode().play()) that's more or less what i do, and in mac chrome 16 it is not pretty
# [20:04] <Hixie> roc: i haven't tested more recent builds yet
# [20:04] <Hixie> roc: firefox seemed to work fine
# [20:04] <Hixie> roc: (though firefox's lack of <input type=range> support is actually a bigger blocker for me on this particular project)
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# [20:06] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Agreed. Most demos I do use range inputs, and it's always bad in FF, annoyingly.
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# [20:07] <Hixie> last i checked there was some work on it
# [20:07] <Hixie> in the meantime i just use the fallback and type in hte numbers manually :-)
# [20:07] <Hixie> but that isn't very usable
# [20:08] <Ms2ger> Yeah, volkmar is working on device stuff now :/
# [20:08] <Ms2ger> If anybody wants to get a job finishing his work... :)
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# [21:28] <AryehGregor> So let me get this straight: a browsing context has a bunch of history entries associated with it, and each of those usually has one Document and one Window?
# [21:29] <AryehGregor> So really I want one Selection per Window or Document, not per browsing context?
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# [21:29] <AryehGregor> (since if you navigate the document, the next page has a different Selection associated with it)
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# [21:37] <AryehGregor> getSelection() !== getSelection() in Opera. :(
# [21:38] <Hixie> AryehGregor: one Selection per Document sounds right. maybe one per Window.
# [21:38] <Hixie> AryehGregor: there's almost but not quite a 1:1 mapping of window to document
# [21:39] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I saw the note in the spec. document.open() should produce a new Selection object, apparently.
# [21:39] <Hixie> and not quite a 1:1 mapping of document to what the user will think of as a document
# [21:39] <Hixie> yeah that's probably the right thing
# [21:39] <Hixie> so 1 Selection per Document, reset at document.open()
# [21:40] <AryehGregor> How should I reset at document.open()? Hook into unloading document cleanup steps, or is there a better way?
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# [21:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie still resets Selection somewhere, I think
# [21:40] <Ms2ger> Don't remember where exactly
# [21:40] <Hixie> it's implied in the document.open algorithm
# [21:40] <Hixie> i'd just mention it in a note
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# [21:42] <volkmar> Ms2ger, Hixie: there hasn't been any work on range unfortunately
# [21:42] <Hixie> yeah, spec says "Replace the Document's singleton objects with new instances of those objects."
# [21:42] <Hixie> and then says "This includes ... objects defined by other specifications, like Selection"
# [21:43] <AryehGregor> Oh, okay.
# [21:43] <Hixie> AryehGregor: probably no need to be more explicit, just define what happens when a Selection object instance is created
# [21:43] <Hixie> and you should be good
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# [21:47] <roc> AryehGregor: I thought you could try 3D transforms in IE10 PP which runs on Windows7
# [21:48] <AryehGregor> roc, do you know where to get such a copy of IE10PP? I only found ones that run on Windows 8.
# [21:48] <roc> no
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# [21:49] <roc> hmm, looks like you're right
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# [21:49] <roc> ulltra lame
# [21:49] <AryehGregor> There used to be one that ran on Windows 7.
# [21:49] <AryehGregor> But it vanished off the face of the Internet, as far as I can tell.
# [21:50] <AryehGregor> Hixie, but document.implementation.createHTMLDocument("") or such doesn't create a separate selection, so not every document has its own selection.
# [21:50] <AryehGregor> What's the right terminology here?
# [21:51] <Ms2ger> There's a concept of static(?) documents in Gecko, IIRC
# [21:52] <Hixie> AryehGregor: right, only Documents that are in browsing contexts
# [21:53] <AryehGregor> "in a browsing context" is the right term? Is that defined somewhere?
# [21:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: there's probably better terminology, check the History section maybe
# [21:53] <Hixie> (i can check in ~5 min)
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# [21:54] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
# [21:55] <Hixie> looks like i just say "Document in a browsing context"
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# [21:58] <Hixie> or "if the Document is in a browsing context"
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# [22:15] <gavinc> I fear to ask, does there exist a grammar for the relative part of an IRI/URI/URL/Thingy?
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# [22:15] <gavinc> The on in RFC3987 doesn't really decompose into just the relative part well
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# [22:55] <pablof> is window.onpopstate(e) { e.state === history.state; } supposed to hold true?
# [22:56] <pablof> bah, that's not actually what i mean, but in any case, is a deserialization of a history state supposed to be always the same everywhere?
# [22:57] <TabAtkins> You mean, is a state supposed to be equal to itself?
# [22:57] <TabAtkins> I would suspect so, but I'm not sure.
# [22:57] <pablof> see https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76035#c7
# [22:57] <roc> AryehGregor: if a Windows developer preview would be useful for your work (and I think it would), talk to your manager (Jet?) and ask him if you can expense whatever it is you need (hardware, MSDN, whatever it is)... tell him I said it was a good idea :-)
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# [23:40] <Hixie> pablof: commented
# [23:42] <pablof> thanks
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# Session Close: Thu Jan 12 00:00:01 2012

The end :)