/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-16 / end

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  123. # [08:48] <izhak> whatwg.org is slowed down.
  124. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> yeah
  125. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> so maybe it wasn't because of twitter traffic to web-apps-tracker after all
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  127. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> for what Hixie said previously, I think it might be some crawler hitting the svn server
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  129. # [08:52] <izhak> the number of crowlers is going to create problems soon
  130. # [08:54] <izhak> *crawlers.
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  143. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> anybody remember when the download attribute was added to the spec?
  144. # [09:31] * MikeSmith is trying to find the rev number so he can open a reminder vnu bug
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  154. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/r/6318
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  159. # [09:44] <zcorpan> oh, that was more recent than i thought
  160. # [09:44] * zcorpan was going to guess "about a year ago"
  161. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, seems like at least
  162. # [09:46] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167303 might be relevant to some spec feature requests
  163. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> but it was only last summer
  164. # [09:46] <hsivonen> the WONTFIX status that is
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  168. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> "I am not sure if js is a good language for parsing arrays of bytes"
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  171. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> god I just looked at the dates on the bug
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  173. # [09:57] <yolin> is there a html validator in javascript?
  174. # [09:58] <hsivonen> yolin: AFAIK, no
  175. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> yolin: would be great to have one
  176. # [10:02] <yolin> MikeSmith, yeh I was thinking the same, where to start?
  177. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> start simple and work up from there
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  179. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> I think Hixie has some ideas about implementing a checker in JS
  180. # [10:04] <yolin> ok, great!
  181. # [10:04] <jgraham> I would be careful to start from a position of ignorance. Otherwise I would feel overwhelmed and give up
  182. # [10:04] <jgraham> ;)
  183. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> heh
  184. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> yeah :)
  185. # [10:04] <yolin> :D
  186. # [10:05] <jgraham> But seriously, it sounds like a nice idea
  187. # [10:05] <yolin> is the current validator at w3c code avaliable?
  188. # [10:05] <yolin> its in Java right? could be ported to Javascript?
  189. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> if you mean the current-current w3c validator, you don't want to look at that code
  190. # [10:05] <yolin> oh...
  191. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> yolin: the java code id validator.nu
  192. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> the existing W3C validator is perl code and based on SGML parsing and other ugly stuff
  193. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> yolin: I really would suggest not looking at existing code
  194. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> and not using any off-the-shelf general schema-checking mechanism
  195. # [10:06] <yolin> okay
  196. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> but doing it all from scratch
  197. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> but that's just my opinion
  198. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> though, there is no existing general schema checking in JS
  199. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> as far as I know
  200. # [10:08] <yolin> I would have to implement the HTML5 parsing algo?
  201. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> no
  202. # [10:08] <jgraham> There is already an implementation of that
  203. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> not that at least
  204. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> yeah
  205. # [10:08] <jgraham> Dunno if it has parse error detection though
  206. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> there are a couple of implementations
  207. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> I think it does
  208. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> well
  209. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> it depends on which one you mean
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  211. # [10:09] <jgraham> I was thinking of the dom.js / David Flanagan one
  212. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> yeah, I think that one might
  213. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> there is another one that Aria Stewart did for node.js
  214. # [10:10] <yolin> dom.js is for dom manipulation in node, will it help for validating html?
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  216. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> it has a separate html parser that can be used standalone
  217. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/andreasgal/dom.js/blob/master/src/impl/HTMLParser.js
  218. # [10:12] <yolin> oh great
  219. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> hmm
  220. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> it doesn't look like it reports parse errors though
  221. # [10:14] <jgraham> In all honesty, if you want to write a validator, adding parse error detection to the parser isn't the most difficult part :)
  222. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> heh
  223. # [10:14] <hsivonen> yolin: you could try compiling the Validator.nu code to JS using GWT
  224. # [10:14] <hsivonen> yolin: you'd need to rework parts that touch java.io
  225. # [10:14] <hsivonen> at least
  226. # [10:15] <hsivonen> yolin: or you could use GWT only for the non-schema parts and use a JS-based RELAX NG engine for the schema parts
  227. # [10:15] <yolin> lemme check validator.nu
  228. # [10:16] <jgraham> FWIW I think Hixie's idea was that you implement one class per tag and let that class be responsible for running whatever checks are relevant to that tag. I guess tehre was more to it than that, but that's al I remember at the moment
  229. # [10:17] <yolin> yes, thats seems like a good idea to handle the complexity
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  231. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, that's the way I remember it too
  232. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> so it would all be custom code specifically for checking HTML
  233. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> rather than a generic mechanism
  234. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> and one big advantage is that you could fine-tune the error messages
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  236. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I think it would be useful to streamline and consolidate that presets in the validator
  237. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> e.g., ARIA and SVG and MathML are all now actually part of HTML
  238. # [10:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, makes sense to flatten those instead of offering them as options
  239. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> so I think we don't really need separate options for those
  240. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> OK
  241. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> will do that too, then
  242. # [10:24] <hsivonen> though the UI should probably still say which version of MathML and SVG it is using as a reference
  243. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also do we actually want to keep the separate SVG 1.1 checker?
  244. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> I wonder if anybody actually uses that or wants it
  245. # [10:25] <hsivonen> also, let's get rid of "(experimental)". this stuff is now real in practice
  246. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
  247. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> that too
  248. # [10:25] <shepazu> I would prefer to keep an SVG 1.1 checker… I don't think that most SVGs are (or even will) be in an HTML document
  249. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> shepazu: OK
  250. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> there's a problem with the schema, though
  251. # [10:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think we should keep the schema that allows <svg> as the root element, yeah
  252. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> hai
  253. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I'm trying to recall, but remember I e-mailed the SVG WG a while back?
  254. # [10:26] <hsivonen> XHTML Basic can probably be zapped
  255. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> OK
  256. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> will do that
  257. # [10:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thank you
  258. # [10:27] <shepazu> MikeSmith: emailed about what?
  259. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> shepazu: to ask that the SVG 1.1 relaxng schema be updated to fix ... something
  260. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> I would need to check my mail to see
  261. # [10:27] <shepazu> oh, yeah
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  263. # [10:28] <shepazu> we'd need to make a new SVG RNG
  264. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  265. # [10:28] <shepazu> berjon was going to do that for us
  266. # [10:28] <shepazu> but...
  267. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> the response from heycam and chris at the was, that SVG 1.1 is not an official product of the SVG WG and they are not maintaining it
  268. # [10:29] <shepazu> yeah
  269. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> which kind of bummed me out to hear that
  270. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> kind of put a damper on my enthusiasm for pursuing the fix
  271. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> whatever it was
  272. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> anyway, i'll look back at it at some point
  273. # [10:30] <shepazu> wish we had the resources to make an RNG
  274. # [10:30] <shepazu> I'll bring it up again
  275. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> I think I may have already made the change in the validator.nu copy of the schema
  276. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> can't remember
  277. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> but I think maybe all I was asking was for that change to be ported back upstream
  278. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> ah yeah yeah yeah
  279. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> I remember now
  280. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> it's because you dudes made a change to the spec, like, just a few months ago!!
  281. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> this "second edition" trickery or whatever
  282. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> where you try to pretend it's not, um, a living standard that occasionally might need updating
  283. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> made a change that loosened some constraint
  284. # [10:33] <shepazu> aren't all specs "living standards"?
  285. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> well, the good ones are at least
  286. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> if by "living" it means acknowledging that they are going to continue to be updated
  287. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> and not updated just by addition of errata or subsequent "editions"
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  289. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> shepazu: anyway, since we are going to be continuing to have that SVG 1.1 standalone-checking option, it would be good to have somebody take ownership of that schema and make sure it actually checks the constraints in the current spec
  290. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> actually this also affects the HTML checker
  291. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> because that same schema is used to check SVG in HTML
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  295. # [10:40] <shepazu> yeah, but nobody on the SVG WG knows how to make an RNG (as far as I know)
  296. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> well
  297. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> geez
  298. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> when I started working with RNG I didn't know either
  299. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> and it ain't rocket science man
  300. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> anybody who has ever edited a DTD can learn it easily
  301. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> the compact syntax at least
  302. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> not the XML syntax
  303. # [10:42] * jgraham keeps reading RNG as "Random Number Generator"
  304. # [10:42] <shepazu> if you want to help us, MikeSmith, that would make it easier
  305. # [10:43] <shepazu> but right now, I'm going to sleep
  306. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> hai
  307. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> I can definitely help you
  308. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> get your beauty sleep :)
  309. # [10:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: hey if you could do my manual testing today i could leave early and go to the gym or so
  310. # [10:46] <zcorpan> or doesn't it work like that? :(
  311. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  312. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> manual testing should be something given as penace, during confession
  313. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> that would be a genuine incentive to not sin further
  314. # [10:50] <jgraham> It kind of does work like that
  315. # [10:50] <jgraham> But with the normal assumption that we are all sinners
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  401. # [13:49] <david_carlisle> hsivonen_: "though the UI should probably still say which version of MathML and SVG it is using as a reference", if you belived the whatwh living standards mantra you'd use the latest and greatest version of each (and I wouldn't have had to knock out a mathml2/3 hybrid: for you:-)
  402. # [13:50] <david_carlisle> s/whatwh/whatwg/
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  416. # [14:43] <jgraham> david_carlisle: (that sort of requires that the people writing the spec also believe in the living standard mantra and don't introduce big backwards-incompatible changes or complexity that prevents people from adopting the new version)
  417. # [14:43] <jgraham> (not sure if that applies to MathML 2 -> 3 or not)
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  427. # [15:18] <davidb_> hi all!
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  433. # [15:37] <david_carlisle> jgraham: MathML3 -> 2 hasn't got backward compat issues, but Mike and Henri wanted to be able to keep validator closer to mathMl2 as that's closer to what browsers implement today (apart from IE/mathPlayer which does mathML3) (same reason people other than browser makers ask for versioned html, actually)
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  459. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> "SVG 1.1 is not an official product of the SVG WG"
  460. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> Say what?
  461. # [16:50] <shepazu> Ms2ger: MikeSmith meant to say that the SVG 1.1 *RNG* was not produced by the SVG WG, and that we don't maintain it
  462. # [16:50] <shepazu> the RelaxNG schema
  463. # [16:50] <shepazu> not the spec
  464. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> That makes slightly more sense
  465. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> Totally not what he said, though
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  550. # [18:43] * Quits: beowulf (u116@pdpc/supporter/professional/beowulf) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  551. # [18:43] * Quits: krijn (u2319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zsfnqvelagchkjwy) (Remote host closed the connection)
  552. # [18:43] * Quits: dglazkov (u4270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dmusnlbkzgeblyxu) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  558. # [18:44] <jgraham> I love it when irccloud dies
  559. # [18:44] <jcranmer> looks ike it
  560. # [18:44] * Quits: NimeshNeema (u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eavvslrkmjjplgft) (Remote host closed the connection)
  561. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> jgraham, so, my review comments? :)
  562. # [18:45] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-34-134.adsl.inetia.pl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  563. # [18:45] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I fixed them didn't I?
  564. # [18:45] * Joins: Phae (u455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gszljpzapcgypxvl)
  565. # [18:45] <jgraham> Dunno how one says on github "this commit fixes these issues"
  566. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> Not in HG
  567. # [18:46] <jgraham> Hmm OK
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  593. # [18:56] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  607. # [19:08] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Pushed
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  621. # [19:20] * shepazu_ is now known as shepazu
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  624. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> jgraham, thanks
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  627. # [19:37] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  776. # Session Close: Tue Jan 17 00:00:00 2012

The end :)