/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-18 / end

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  116. # [01:37] <dglazkov> Hixie: off the top of your head, when did you add transparent content model? I can't seem to find a good way to search commits on the spec
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  127. # [01:44] <jamesr_> TabAtkins_, damn you sinped me
  128. # [01:44] <jamesr_> sniped
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  149. # [02:07] <TabAtkins_> bwahaha
  150. # [02:07] <TabAtkins_> And I did that *while* I was making a new diagram in SVG.
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  153. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: I think more than 5 years ago at least
  154. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> (about the transparent content model)
  155. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: yeah, I got it, but it's going to take me a while to add all those
  156. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> will try to do it today
  157. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> I've been working on validator code
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  159. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> which work I hope I can finish up on today
  160. # [02:21] * MikeSmith sees question from Ms2ger
  161. # [02:22] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: Darn, I was hoping adding a new component was super-easy or something. Thanks, though!
  162. # [02:23] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  163. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> it is super easy, but that list is like 20 new components or something, so I need to set aside a few minutes rather than just say, doing it during some telcon the way I usually would
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  165. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: also ideally each of those components should have a default assignee
  166. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> typically, the editor
  167. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> do you want me to try to set default assignees for them?
  168. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> we need an inform bot here?
  169. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> infobot, inform Ms2ger no David Dahl did not ask me about adding a new repo
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  171. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> I assume that would be for domcrypt
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  180. # [02:48] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: I can send you a list of all the default assignees. Does it need to be just one person, or can it be multiple?
  181. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> dunno if it can multiple
  182. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> I think in practice we always make it one person
  183. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> you can see the current default assignees here:
  184. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/describecomponents.cgi?product=CSS
  185. # [02:53] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  186. # [02:54] <TabAtkins_> Okay, I'll draw up a list tomorrow.
  187. # [02:55] <hober> You can have a list of people who get CCed by default. that's what we have for transforms, transitions, & animations
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  256. # [06:38] <jamesr> fffuuuu, is there any way for one data: URL to script an iframe that's loaded as another data: URL ?
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  260. # [06:45] <jamesr> woah, anyone want to see some weird shit?
  261. # [06:46] <Hixie> jamesr: webkit has a bug that blocks data: urls from interacting
  262. # [06:47] <jamesr> yeah they appear to always be different origin
  263. # [06:47] <jamesr> sigh
  264. # [06:47] <jamesr> check this shit out: http://webstuff.nfshost.com/tests/outer.html
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  268. # [07:15] <jamesr> anyone around who can fix MDN ?
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  320. # [09:18] <hsivonen_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15592 Why hardware tokens are a bad idea, episode 42.
  321. # [09:19] <hsivonen_> Even if the Web platform had a smart card API, how would you stick a smart card into your wifi-only tablet?
  322. # [09:19] <hsivonen_> we know that people just love to buy and lug around USB dongles for their tablets
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  345. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen_: I guess it's conceivable that tablets could have NFC readers
  346. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> or does "smart card" imply some specific type of reader that requires actually swiping the card?
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  350. # [10:16] * jgraham slips up on the multiple-meanings-of-NFC banana skin again
  351. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> heh
  352. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> or RFID or whatever
  353. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> it seems some Dell laptops already have such a thing
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  355. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> "contactless" cards I guess
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  357. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, yeah, for the crypto stuff
  358. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  359. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I pinged David on #developers but I guess is has been away
  360. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> if you want, I can just go ahead and set it up
  361. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> just "domcrypt" for the name?
  362. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> and what group should I associate it with, if any?
  363. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> for now I can just set it so that david's the only one with write access
  364. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> can add a group or other editors later if needed
  365. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> are contactless cards used in Europe or North America much?
  366. # [10:26] * Joins: yolin (~niloy@122.179.129.91)
  367. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> in Japan we use them for trains and buses and also at many stores
  368. # [10:28] <jgraham> Assuming they are the same thing, they are used for the public transport in London and Linköping (amongst others!). Never seen them used in a store though.
  369. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, http://www.w3.org/2011/11/webcryptography-charter.html I guess, dunno what the status is
  370. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger, thanks
  371. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  372. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> I need to ask Harry about that group
  373. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, I can just set it for now so that David's the only one with write access
  374. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> jgraham: do have electronic ID cards and if so are those contactless?
  375. # [10:30] <Ms2ger> Wan-Teh Chang as well, I think
  376. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> OK
  377. # [10:31] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I have some sort of ID card that apparently has some sort of electronic part. Not contactless though and I have never needed to use it electronically.
  378. # [10:31] <jgraham> Indeed I don't know how.
  379. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> ok
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  381. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ready to go https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcrypt/
  382. # [10:37] <Ms2ger> Great, thanks
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  406. # [11:35] <hsivonen_> MikeSmith: so is Apple/Samsung/whatever willing to put the extra hardware to cater to European countries that got enchanted by the smart card lobby?
  407. # [11:35] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  408. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno
  409. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> b
  410. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> but if there is money to be made from it in selling more devices, I'd think so
  411. # [11:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: back when Finland tried this, we got a couple of crappy computers from Fujitsu with built-in support. that was it. Fortunately, the whole thing flopped.
  412. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> yeah, I wonder how the current trend will play out in the long run
  413. # [11:42] <hsivonen> also, I don't really want any special interest to replay the digital tv coup, where they made a lot of people replace hardware just because
  414. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, that would be bad
  415. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> but in this case, people seem to like the convenience
  416. # [11:42] <hsivonen> hahahahah
  417. # [11:42] <hsivonen> this smart card stuff has nothing to do with user convenience
  418. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> oh
  419. # [11:43] <hsivonen> it's all about vendors convincing governments that there's a problem that needs solving
  420. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> ah
  421. # [11:43] <hsivonen> when that same problem has never been equally solved pre-Internet and the sky hasn't fallen
  422. # [11:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry if "hahahahah" was rude.
  423. # [11:44] <hsivonen> but this is so far removed from the needs of the *users*
  424. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> I guess I don't really know what the difference is between smart cards and the contactless cards and e-wallet features on mobile phones we have in Japan
  425. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> no problem man :)
  426. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> you should laugh more often!
  427. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> I'm glad to provide some mirth
  428. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> anyway, the use case I had in mind is just the use case of being able to pay for stuff easily without needing to carry cash
  429. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> I take it that in Europe, the use case that the vendors are trying to sell governments on is just electronic identification
  430. # [11:47] <hsivonen> what goverments in Europe try to do is to make login to government Web sites more "secure" than login to Google or Paypal
  431. # [11:48] <hsivonen> and more secure than login to banks
  432. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> aha
  433. # [11:49] <jgraham> Hmm, the situation we have is that login to government websites is pretty much equivalent to login to banks
  434. # [11:49] <hsivonen> because, you know, no one has never just phoned a government office and stated their name and id number
  435. # [11:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: in Finland, login to goverment sites is now outsourced to banks, because the smart card thing sucked so badly
  436. # [11:49] <jgraham> Right, taht is mostly the case here
  437. # [11:50] <jgraham> There are various identity providers and banks are one of them
  438. # [11:50] <jgraham> Banks in turn are typically protected by some kind of hardware challenge/response system
  439. # [11:51] <hsivonen> this situation is *much* better than smart cards, because because typing some numbers from a laminated piece of paper is browser, OS and device-neutral
  440. # [11:51] <jgraham> (not sure if I am using the right technical terms here)
  441. # [11:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: over here, the "hardware" that the user possesses is a piece of paper with some plastic coating
  442. # [11:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: works great except with gullible people and phishing
  443. # [11:51] <jgraham> (but the system is device neutral to the extent that the bank website works on different devices/browsers)
  444. # [11:52] <jgraham> (and one option for government login requires java. There is also a mobile phone based alternative)
  445. # [11:52] <hsivonen> but then, smart cards are also vulnerable to gullible users
  446. # [11:53] <hsivonen> in fact, using smart cards requires more leaps of faith from the user
  447. # [11:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: Here you get some hardware for which you have a PIN. The bank site presents a number, you enter that number into the device and then enter the corresponding number into the bank website.
  448. # [11:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: I guess that protects gullible people from blatant phishing better than what we have
  449. # [11:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: but probably doesn't help people who are excessively gullible
  450. # [11:55] <hsivonen> compared to the piece of paper that is
  451. # [11:56] <hsivonen> with the piece of paper, the bank is supposed to ask for one printed number at a time
  452. # [11:57] <hsivonen> but since the user has all the numbers available, a particularly audacious phisher can ask the user to type *all* of them at once
  453. # [11:57] <hsivonen> of course, the user has to be super-gullible to fall for that one
  454. # [11:57] <hsivonen> I don't know if people who fall for that one can be helped in terms of computer security
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  463. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm wondering how the validator deals with "xmlns:" in text/html
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  465. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> I see the parser does not expose "xmlns:*" as attributes to the rest of the SAX pipeline
  466. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see
  467. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> and doesn't support the sax namespace-prefixes feature
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  471. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> so I'm wondering how the validator service is able to see report xmlnis:* attributes
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  477. # [12:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, the parser reports them, then doesn't show them to the pipeline
  478. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  479. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> hmm, but jing sees them
  480. # [12:13] <hsivonen> oh.
  481. # [12:13] <hsivonen> then I misremember
  482. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> well, I mean I can see that the error message seems to be a kind that jing emits
  483. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> "Attribute xmlns:foo not allowed here"
  484. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> oh
  485. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> no
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  487. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> that is emitted by the parser
  488. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> my bad
  489. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> that's in the treebuilder code
  490. # [12:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes. private void checkAttributes(HtmlAttributes attributes, @NsUri String ns)
  491. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> yep yep
  492. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> OK, that is good news
  493. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> or good for me to get confirmation of that
  494. # [12:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fun with RDFa, eh?
  495. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> you guessed it man
  496. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> xmlns is deprecated in RDFa 1.1
  497. # [12:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suggest not supporting deprecated parts
  498. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> however, the spec currently says, "Conformance checkers must accept attribute names that have a case insensitive prefix matching "xmlns:" as conforming. Conformance checkers should generate warnings noting that the use of xmlns: is deprecated."
  499. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> yeah
  500. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> agreed
  501. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> if anything that part of the spec should be changed to say, "Conformance checkers may report xmlns attributes as errors"
  502. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's also not clear whether xmlns is an error in RDFa Lite or not
  503. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> not clear to me anyway
  504. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> oh, looks like gecko implementation of Network Status API just landed
  505. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=677166
  506. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> And some SMS stuff too
  507. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> navigator.mozConnection.bandwidth
  508. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> SMS stuff?
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  511. # [12:35] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=674725
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  514. # [12:39] * hsivonen wishes this stuff wasn't moz-prefixed
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  516. # [12:40] <hsivonen> that SMS landing sure had lots of changesets
  517. # [12:40] * Ms2ger wishes this stuff was being specced
  518. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, even better, it didn't build
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  520. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: IIRC, there's a draft for the network status API
  521. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: is there not a spec for SMS?
  522. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> On wikimo
  523. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> the implementation is different from network status API draft
  524. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> for good reasons
  525. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> hopefully the spec will get revised
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  527. # [12:42] <Ms2ger> AIUI, the plan is to try to establish a significant legacy through b2g, and then spec our implementation
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  533. # [12:52] <smaug____> Ms2ger: is wikimo not a spec but draft in some random website which has html or html5 in the domain name is a draft?
  534. # [12:52] <smaug____> though, perhaps you did mean that wikimo draft is a draft spec
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  537. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> No, what I meant is that wikimo is owned by one vendor, while html5.org or whatwg.org isn't
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  540. # [13:04] <hsivonen> html5.org and whatwg.org are both owned by employees of vendors
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  542. # [13:05] <Ms2ger> Sure
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  544. # [13:05] <Ms2ger> But wikimo is a Mozilla asset, and whatwg.org isn't a Google asset
  545. # [13:05] <hsivonen> ok
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  552. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: sent you some patch review requests
  553. # [13:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll take a look
  554. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> thanks
  555. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> sorry it's all pretty boring stuff
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  596. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: resent the review request but with the actual patch attached this time
  597. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> sorry about that
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  602. # [15:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I replied
  603. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  642. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> hober, are the transform specs being actively edited? I filed a bunch of bugs, some of them very simple, and while some have gotten responses, none have resulted in changes yet.
  643. # [16:29] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  644. # [16:29] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_ or jamesr_ or some other Chrome person: could you run the test-case in this comment and see if it actually works for you in Chrome? It still produces incorrect results for me in dev, but someone claims it works in canary: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68551#c0
  645. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> (I'm on Linux, so I don't have canary or WebKit nightlies to test in)
  646. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> (but the patches landed over a month ago, they should be in dev, right?)
  647. # [16:31] * Parts: ksweeney (~Adium@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
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  649. # [16:34] <beverloo> AryehGregor, I don't know about the context, but I'm getting an empty alert in a build from 2 minutes ago
  650. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> beverloo, thanks, that's the correct (fixed) behavior.
  651. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> I guess dev just hasn't gotten the updates yet or something.
  652. # [16:35] <beverloo> I think this is the change which is relevant? http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/103953 (cssText change for border-width)
  653. # [16:36] <beverloo> the fix probably isn't on the branch in that case
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  657. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> Lame, Wikipedia blackout implemented by JS that runs onload or something.
  658. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> Why couldn't they reconfigure the Squids instead?
  659. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> beverloo, but it will migrate there soon enough, I guess?
  660. # [16:40] <beverloo> yeah, should be in Chrome 18
  661. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
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  664. # [16:42] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It seems to have been a design goal to make it easy to get around. Dunno why
  665. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> Laziness?
  666. # [16:43] <zewt> because actually taking sites offline in "protest" is stupid? heh
  667. # [16:43] <jgraham> I doubt it. I mean it seems almost easier to do it right
  668. # [16:44] <zewt> if a site i need is offline because of some "protest", there's zero chance i'm going to go "damn you SOPA" and 100% chance i'm going to get angry at the people who *actually* took the site offline
  669. # [16:47] <wilhelm> You appear to be special, in that case. Following the discussions in local media, ~everyone that comment on the issue seem to be positive to the action. The issue has been widely covered today, thanks to the blackout.
  670. # [16:48] <wilhelm> I have no numbers – just a few more anecdotes. (c:
  671. # [16:49] <jgraham> The coverage on the BBC seems to be quite anti-blackout
  672. # [16:49] <wilhelm> Interesting.
  673. # [16:50] <jgraham> Not people's opinions but the reporters
  674. # [16:50] <jgraham> I mean it isn't saying "OMG this is bad" or anything
  675. # [16:51] <jgraham> But it is written in such a way that it sounds like the protest is in favour of piracy
  676. # [16:51] <jgraham> That could just be my bias reading it of course
  677. # [16:51] <jgraham> It doesn't help that Jimmy Wales rambled in his interview whereas the MPAA goon was well-drilled and had clear soundbites
  678. # [16:52] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  679. # [16:52] * Joins: izhak (1000@188.168.76.58)
  680. # [16:52] <jgraham> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16604990
  681. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> jgraham, doing it right means involving sysadmins, in Wikipedia's case, to reconfigure the Squids (or Varnish or whatever they use these days). Doing it wrong means any old sysop adding something to [[MediaWiki:Common.js]].
  682. # [16:54] <AryehGregor> Where "sysadmin" means "paid ops person with root access, of which there are like five", while "sysop" means "any 16-year-old who spent a few hundred hours scaring away well-intentioned newcomers by posting scary anti-vandalism warnings on their talk pages".
  683. # [16:54] <jgraham> OTOH Richard Murdoch came out in favour of SOPA which might just be enough to get everyone to realise it is a bad idea
  684. # [16:54] <AryehGregor> (of which there are like 2,000)
  685. # [16:55] <jgraham> (since he is universially reviled, at least in the UK)
  686. # [16:55] <wilhelm> The biggest radio station here attempted to find someone who was in favour of SOPA for a debate. They couldn't find anyone. They did ask the local equivalent of Encyclopædia Britannica, who were offended by the question. The result was that the encyclopedia considered shutting down too, but ended up doing what no.wikipedia.org did – put up a big, black banner.
  687. # [16:55] <jgraham> heh
  688. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> Nice
  689. # [16:56] <AryehGregor> jgraham, because the UK is entirely liberal, by American standards, like basically all of Europe on most issues. American conservatives don't revile him at all.
  690. # [16:56] <AryehGregor> American liberals do, though.
  691. # [16:56] <jgraham> AryehGregor: American conservatives probably don't read the BBC though
  692. # [16:56] <AryehGregor> No, it's a liberal rag as far as they're concerned.
  693. # [16:56] <AryehGregor> (I'm an American conservative, incidentally)
  694. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Well, everything except for Fox is a liberal rag, no?
  695. # [16:57] <AryehGregor> More or less, yes. Also the Wall Street Journal is probably okay.
  696. # [16:57] * AryehGregor discovers that the 4x4 identity matrix with the last 1 equal to k is the same as scale3d(1/k, 1/k, 1/k)
  697. # [16:57] <AryehGregor> This perspective stuff is kind of interesting.
  698. # [16:57] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  699. # [16:58] <AryehGregor> Also, setting the last 1 to a 0 makes everything completely vanish.
  700. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> The last one equal to k?
  701. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> diag(1,1,1,k)?
  702. # [16:58] <AryehGregor> [1 0 0 0; 0 1 0 0; 0 0 1 0; 0 0 0 k]
  703. # [16:58] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  704. # [16:58] * Ms2ger is lazy
  705. # [16:58] <AryehGregor> Which implies that you can always have that entry be either 1 or 0 by adjusting the other entries appropriately.
  706. # [16:58] <AryehGregor> I guess.
  707. # [16:58] <wilhelm> American TV is wonderfully bizarre. Even more so than British tabloids.
  708. # [16:59] <jgraham> (BTW thw Mozilla SOPA page is very good)
  709. # [16:59] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  710. # [17:00] <AryehGregor> Actually, if what Philip` said is correct, then diag(1, 1, 1, 0) plasters everything out to a sphere at infinity, squishing every ray coming from the origin to its endpoint at infinity.
  711. # [17:00] <AryehGregor> Philip`, so what's the graphical significance of [0, 0, 0, 0]?
  712. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> jgraham, duh? ;)
  713. # [17:00] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGKMDXXX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  714. # [17:00] <jgraham> (not least because it explicitly says "we think piracy is bad, but still think this legislation is bad")
  715. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> We've got complaints already of people switching to other browsers because we support piracy
  716. # [17:01] <wilhelm> Fascinating
  717. # [17:03] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Haha
  718. # [17:04] <Ms2ger> The fact that we still have users who use that treat must mean they're just as unhappy with other browsers
  719. # [17:04] <Ms2ger> If they still end up with us..
  720. # [17:07] <Philip`> jgraham: Richard Murdoch, the deceased comedy actor?
  721. # [17:07] <bga> lol http://stopsoap.com/
  722. # [17:07] <jgraham> Philip`: Did I say that?
  723. # [17:07] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
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  725. # [17:08] <Philip`> 15:48 < jgraham> OTOH Richard Murdoch came out in favour of SOPA which might just be enough to get everyone to realise it is a bad idea
  726. # [17:08] <jgraham> See, I hate him so much I can't even bear to type his name
  727. # [17:08] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@adsl-75-55-201-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Bye!)
  728. # [17:08] <jgraham> Either that or I am an idiot
  729. # [17:08] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGKMDXXX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  730. # [17:08] <Philip`> That makes it hard to tell which of the Murdochs you hate :-(
  731. # [17:08] <Philip`> or maybe there's no need to make that distinction
  732. # [17:09] <Philip`> AryehGregor: It's a light source at infinity with intensity 0 (so its direction is irrelevant)
  733. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> Philip`, how does it have intensity zero?
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  737. # [17:19] <Philip`> I think (not based on much expertise) that w=0 vectors occur most commonly in lighting equations, where you compute stuff like I * (N dot L) where N is a (unit) normal vector and L is the (usually unit) light direction and I is the light intensity
  738. # [17:20] <Philip`> and the only time you'd get a vector like [0, 0, 0, 0] is if you tried folding the intensity into L in advance (when I = 0)
  739. # [17:21] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  740. # [17:21] <Philip`> That's probably a rubbish answer; it's probably better to say that graphics almost always uses unit vectors, and non-unit vectors have no significance, and [0, 0, 0, 0] probably results from a bug like scaling your world by 0
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  744. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> Philip`, interesting.
  745. # [17:27] * Philip` has only ever used 4-vectors in graphics when applying transforms to 3D models, since you compute vertex positions as [x, y, z, 1]*T and vertex normals as [x, y, z, 0]*T, and all the vectors were stored as 3-vectors anyway and the w was just implicit in the computation
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  747. # [17:28] <AryehGregor> What do you mean by vertex normals?
  748. # [17:29] <Philip`> The normal vector of the surface at a vertex
  749. # [17:30] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  751. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> Which surface?
  752. # [17:33] <Philip`> The surface of the mesh that the code is rendering
  753. # [17:33] <bga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_normal
  754. # [17:35] * AryehGregor knows what a surface normal is, in the sense of something normal to the tangents, where the tangents are the derivatives of the parametrization, but isn't sure how [x, y, z, 0]*T is relevant
  755. # [17:35] <Philip`> (It's not really a mathematical surface, e.g. if you have a cube then there are three coincident vertexes at each corner with different normals (one per face of the cube))
  756. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Well, probably I don't need to know for what I'm doing right now.
  757. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Oh, interesting.
  758. # [17:35] * Quits: tsenart (~tsenart@217.110.45.3) (Quit: tsenart)
  759. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> But each face is a proper surface with boundary, right?
  760. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> So it's really the union of six surfaces.
  761. # [17:37] <Philip`> T is a translation+rotation matrix representing the object-space-to-world-space transform of the model, and you need to apply T to the normals for use in subsequent lighting calculations, but the translation component of T is irrelevant so you treat the normals as being vectors [x,y,z,0] in the matrix multiplication
  762. # [17:37] <Philip`> (whereas translation matters for positions, so you treat them as [x,y,z,1])
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  764. # [17:38] <Philip`> (Actually there's probably some inverses and transposes in there but they cancel out so they're not important)
  765. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  766. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  767. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> Amazing what you can do with linear algebra.
  768. # [17:38] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  769. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> Of course, a large fraction of pure math is just devoted to reducing stuff to linear algebra.
  770. # [17:39] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@216.38.130.164)
  771. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> (see, e.g.: multivariable calculus, homology)
  772. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> Applied math even more so.
  773. # [17:40] <Philip`> (In code you just do stuff like http://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/shaders/model_common.vp lines 14-20, where instancingTransform is the object-to-world-space transform matrix, and "DP3 a, b, c" means a = b.x*c.x + b.y*c.y + b.z*c.z, and "DP4 ..." is the 4-vector version of that)
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  776. # [17:41] <Philip`> (although if you're sane you probably don't use assembly for shaders)
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  778. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> Fun question: should transform: scaleZ(0) have any visible effect on rendering?
  779. # [17:45] * Quits: tsenart (~tsenart@89.246.67.229) (Client Quit)
  780. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> In Gecko it seems to make everything vanish, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me..
  781. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> me.
  782. # [17:45] <TabAtkins_> It shouldn't, no.
  783. # [17:45] <TabAtkins_> Because they're already zero in the z dimension?
  784. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> It's a funny case, because normally zero-determinant transforms make everything vanish, but here should be an exception.
  785. # [17:47] <niloy> I have a question regarding window.getComputedStyle(), if I ask for "border-radius", its returning empty string, is this okay?
  786. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> Or rather, anything should be an exception if it squashes everything to a plane that's not perpendicular to the x-y plane.
  787. # [17:47] <TabAtkins_> I'm wondering what effect scaleZ() can have at all, actually.
  788. # [17:47] <TabAtkins_> niloy: Code sample? Sounds like your'e doing it wrong.
  789. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, well, you can intersperse it with other transforms. perspective() is an obvious one, but also try rotate3d().
  790. # [17:47] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Ah, yeah.
  791. # [17:48] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YZKMCDXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  792. # [17:48] <niloy> TabAtkins_, http://jsfiddle.net/LEZA6/
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  794. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> Oh, right. border-radius is a shorthand, so it doesn't have a computed style.
  795. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> You need to ask for each individual corner.
  796. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> (This is a dumb rule.)
  797. # [17:50] <niloy> ohkay
  798. # [17:50] <niloy> ^_^
  799. # [17:51] <TabAtkins_> Also, any particular reason you're using .getPropertyValue('foo-bar') instead of just .fooBar?
  800. # [17:52] <niloy> no particular reason, I tried everything, nothing worked
  801. # [17:53] <hober> AryehGregor: yes, they're being actively edited. but none of the editors are working *solely* on the specs, so edits happen in a somewhat unpredictably sporadic/batchy way. each issue tracked in bugzilla will (if neccessary) eventually result in a spec change, which will be noted in bugzilla at bug-resolving time.
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  803. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> hober, okay, just checking that someone will get around to it eventually. Do you have any ideas on what the timeframe might be like? Weeks, months, years?
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  808. # [17:56] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, okay, now what should happen if you have two things overlaid on top of one another and then you do scaleZ(0)? Which color do you get? The topmost?
  809. # [17:56] <TabAtkins_> I... think?
  810. # [17:56] <hober> AryehGregor: I'll try to ensure things happen quickly but no, timeframe is probably somewhat dependent on each particular issue's complexity etc.
  811. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> hober, okay.
  812. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, so the behavior of scaleZ() should be dependent on orientation, then? Reflecting through the x-y plane doesn't commute with scaleZ()?
  813. # [17:58] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: I'm talking out my ass.
  814. # [17:58] <TabAtkins_> Possibly Gecko's behavior is correct, and normal elements have epsilon depth in the z axis.
  815. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> That means <div style="transform:matrix3d(1,0,0,0, 0,1,0,0, 0,0,-1,0, 0,0,0,1)"><div style="transform:scaleZ(0)"> is different from <div style="transform:matrix3d(1,0,0,0, 0,1,0,0, 0,0,-1,0, 0,0,0,1) transform:scaleZ(0)">.
  816. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> Er.
  817. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> That means <div style="transform:matrix3d(1,0,0,0, 0,1,0,0, 0,0,-1,0, 0,0,0,1)"><div style="transform:scaleZ(0)"> is different from <div style="transform:matrix3d(1,0,0,0, 0,1,0,0, 0,0,-1,0, 0,0,0,1) scaleZ(0)">.
  818. # [17:59] <TabAtkins_> I can't interpret matrices.
  819. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> That matrix reflects everything through the x-y plane.
  820. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> I.e., negates the z-coordinate.
  821. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Actually, it's just scaleZ(-1).
  822. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> The thing is, implementations probably premultiply all the matrices here for nested elements.
  823. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> So it's not intuitive what element is "on top".
  824. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> Actually, maybe it's not a problem.
  825. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> Just follow the regular z-index.
  826. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Or document order if z-index is the same.
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  828. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> This is related to transform-style:preserve-3d, methinks.
  829. # [18:01] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad008216.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  830. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> Really, the question is no different from translating one div on top of another within the X-Y plane.
  831. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> It amounts to the same transformation matrix in the end.
  832. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> So it's not a problem, I guess.
  833. # [18:02] <TabAtkins_> Glad you satisfied yourself. ^_^
  834. # [18:03] <jgraham> We need a LaTeX mode for irc
  835. # [18:03] <TabAtkins_> Slightly difficult in ascii.
  836. # [18:04] <jgraham> Well the output would have to be non-ascii of course
  837. # [18:04] <jgraham> Unless you just read the input :)
  838. # [18:04] <AryehGregor> jgraham, so I can write a program that sends your IRC client into an infinite loop?
  839. # [18:04] * Quits: izhak (1000@188.168.76.58) (Remote host closed the connection)
  840. # [18:04] <AryehGregor> Or just a LaTeX subset like Wikipedia?
  841. # [18:04] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Pretend I added the word subset
  842. # [18:04] <jgraham> Yeah
  843. # [18:05] <jgraham> It could have been worse, I might hace said MathML
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  846. # [18:05] <AryehGregor> :)
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  855. # [18:28] <david_carlisle> jgraham: you are being watched
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  858. # [18:30] <jgraham> david_carlisle: You don't scare me :p You might pretend to hand-author MathML, but I know you really have a LaTexX subset to MathML convertor written in XSLT :p
  859. # [18:31] <david_carlisle> jgraham: well, since you ask....
  860. # [18:31] <david_carlisle> jgraham: I do have an xml parser written in TeX so of course you can use mathml syntax in your tex files if you want save all that old \ and {} nonsense....
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  862. # [18:34] <jgraham> Do you ever write in languages other people like? Or are all your "shell scripts" in Cobol, just because?
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  864. # [18:34] <jgraham> ;)
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  866. # [18:35] <david_carlisle> jgraham: shell scripts are in bash and sed and perl but In my heart I know they should all be xproc really
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  868. # [18:36] <jgraham> Heh
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  885. # [19:06] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  886. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> Good night, dglazkov
  887. # [19:07] <dglazkov> good night, Ms2ger! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-7BT2CFYNU
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  890. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> Oh, a giraffe... That makes sense, I guess
  891. # [19:10] <dglazkov> :D
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  901. # [19:35] <dglazkov> (figurative) penny for your thoughts: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-January/034410.html
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  904. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Don't do that
  905. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> My penny please? :)
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  911. # [19:45] <dglazkov> here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/1990-issue_US_Penny_obverse_2.jpg/220px-1990-issue_US_Penny_obverse_2.jpg
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  913. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  915. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Opera seems to run <script for="window" event="bar">
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  917. # [19:52] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: it's in the spec, right?
  918. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> Only if event == onload or onload()
  919. # [19:52] <dglazkov> ah
  920. # [19:52] <dglazkov> bar looks pretty close to onload
  921. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Yeah, keys so close together and stuff
  922. # [19:53] <dglazkov> usually when at bar, you load on
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  934. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> "[webmaster] Why I am deleting Firefox, in favor of Opera" "Because you are boycotting SOPA for one day, it tells me that you are in favor of piracy and copyright theft, and against policing same. Therefore I am permanently boycotting Mozilla, and all other organizations who are in favor of piracy and theft. Switching out browsers is easy, switching e-mail addresses is harder, but by the end of the week I will no longer be using any products or web
  935. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> sites assocaited with people who are for piracy."
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  937. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Anyone at Opera want to make a statement? :)
  938. # [20:22] <divya> hahaha
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  948. # [20:40] <Velmont> Heh... Ohwell.
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  980. # [22:41] <dglazkov> is dreamhost protesting SOPA too? Or is whatwg.org just down?
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  985. # [22:50] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Now that I know being against piracy is such a winning strategy I will ensure that we add heavy armaments to Howcome's boat and send him off to maintain law on the high seas
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  987. # [22:52] <jgraham> dglazkov: Never ascribe to political protest what can be adequetly explained by incompetence
  988. # [22:52] <dglazkov> :)
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The end :)