/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-20 / end

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  16. # [00:35] <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/samples/widget-theming.html
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  52. # [02:13] <crankharder> app manifest and indexed as implemented currently in the latest ffx and chrome both ask permission of the user before allowing them to be used. anyone know if that is a permanent 'feature'
  53. # [02:13] <AryehGregor> Surely that's only up to a certain amount of disk space used or such?
  54. # [02:13] <crankharder> nope
  55. # [02:14] <crankharder> *indexedDB
  56. # [02:14] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  57. # [02:14] <AryehGregor> That seems unreasonable.
  58. # [02:14] <crankharder> i can see it for indexeddb - maybe, after a certain size limit
  59. # [02:15] <crankharder> but app manifest - i'd think it should be seamless
  60. # [02:15] <AryehGregor> Chrome seems to not have a permission prompt for this: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/detail/filesystemdb/launch
  61. # [02:16] <crankharder> i can have an example of the two in conjunction up in a few minutes
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  63. # [02:21] <crankharder> meh, ssl issues - can't really open it up. suffice it to say, two popups in ffx and chrome :/
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  65. # [02:25] <crankharder> anyways - another issue. i've noticed that the application manifest is protocol specific, maybe? my manifest looks like this http://pastie.org/3216691 - and is served up on /offline which is always SSL. if I visit the root of my app on HTTP while offline, then the manifest doesn't get used. if I visit the root while on https, then it does get recognized
  66. # [02:25] <crankharder> the issue is that my homepage is HTTP - so nobody is going to visit it at https
  67. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> As a general rule, a different protocol means a different origin as far as the same-origin policy goes.
  68. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> I don't know about app manifests specifically.
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  70. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> This is to stop the non-secure version of the site from having unsecured access to secure parts of the site.
  71. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> E.g., if the secure version of a site stores something in localStorage, maybe it's important that MITMs can't get it, so we can't let the unsecured version of the site read it.
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  73. # [02:29] <crankharder> I guess i'm in a nebulous secure situation... I'm fine with http accessing the manifest once it's stored on the computer - I just don't want to transmit that data over the air as http
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  75. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> I don't know anything about manifests, so I can't really help you, but isn't the whole point that when you're offline, nothing is transmitted over the network anyway?
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  77. # [02:30] <crankharder> yes, but when i suck down data to populate indexDB i want that connection to be secure
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  79. # [02:31] <crankharder> unfortunately that means the whole page must be https, and so the manifest is received over https, but nobody's going to hit / as https
  80. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> Why not?
  81. # [02:32] <crankharder> cause the root of my app just isn't https
  82. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> Dunno how that works, then.
  83. # [02:32] <crankharder> so people, w/o wifi, will just go to "foo.com" in their browser
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  139. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> http://blogs.adobe.com/webplatform/2012/01/13/html5-image-progress-events/
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  141. # [06:22] <jwalden> seems plausible at first glance, although I'm not familiar with the area enough to say that it's definitely a good idea, and workable that way
  142. # [06:22] <zewt> Display the image by encoding the XHR response in base 64, appending it to a data URI, and setting an image elementfs src attribute to the data URI.
  143. # [06:22] <zewt> ugh
  144. # [06:23] <zewt> progress events for images are useful; that, however, is disgusting and horrible
  145. # [06:24] * jwalden would agree with that
  146. # [06:24] <zewt> throw all kinds of sane memory handling and cache handling right out the window
  147. # [06:24] <jwalden> I can't think of a time I've had a need for loading a regular old <img> and needed progress information for it, myself
  148. # [06:24] <jwalden> medical image display is a nice instance, tho
  149. # [06:25] <zewt> useful when loading background images, eg. for canvas/webgl
  150. # [06:25] <jwalden> it'd go well for viewing any big image standalone, actually
  151. # [06:25] <zewt> that is, images which aren't actually being displayed as they load
  152. # [06:25] <jwalden> well, for background images (presumably in CSS), how would you get a handle on the image for progress notifications?
  153. # [06:25] <zewt> ah okay that link wasn't actually *recommending* the above--rather indicating that it's a replacement for it (okay)
  154. # [06:26] <erlehmann> medical imaging
  155. # [06:26] <erlehmann> i chuckled a bit
  156. # [06:26] <zewt> you just create an HTMLImageElement, fill it in and (optionally--may be browser-dependant) stuff it in a hidden container in the doc
  157. # [06:27] <jwalden> oh, you're assuming an <img> will seed the same cache that the CSS would use
  158. # [06:27] <zewt> (i've never been sure whether all browsers will load an image if it isn't in a document; i just always stick it in the doc to be sure)
  159. # [06:27] <zewt> not referring to CSS at all
  160. # [06:27] <jwalden> which is probably reasonable, or should be
  161. # [06:27] <jwalden> if you don't mean CSS, what do you mean by "background images"?
  162. # [06:27] <zewt> i'm talking about loading images, then using the image as an argument to eg. webgl's ctx.texImage2D
  163. # [06:27] <zewt> images loaded in the background
  164. # [06:28] <jwalden> aargh, namespace collisions :-)
  165. # [06:28] <zewt> (or in the foreground but not displayed, eg. a loading screen)
  166. # [06:28] <jwalden> okay, I get you now
  167. # [06:28] <zewt> the most obvious case being a loading screen progress indicator (i think i mentioned that on the list thread--not sure if I sent that mail)
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  225. # [09:54] <hsivonen> uh oh. looks like the CSS WG will tweak the commas in CSS function notation in prefix-deployed modules
  226. # [09:54] <hsivonen> that'll cause a lot of confusion
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  238. # [10:34] <hsivonen> yay. someone managed to make Validator.nu take so much RAM that the kernel killed the validator (and other stuff, too)
  239. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> oh boy
  240. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> I hope there are not a lot of someones out there who can do that
  241. # [10:36] <zcorpan> was it Philip`?
  242. # [10:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: evidence points to Sweden rather than the UK
  243. # [10:40] <jgraham> It wasn't me
  244. # [10:46] * Stikk is now known as Stikki
  245. # [10:52] <zcorpan> maybe Philip` used a proxy
  246. # [10:55] <jgraham> zcorpan: Pretty sure you're the prime suspect. And arguments like that aren't helping your case ;)
  247. # [10:55] <zcorpan> heh
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  309. # [14:35] <matjas> hsivonen: re: “DOM strings are strings of 16-bit code units”, am I correct in reading that as “UCS-2 like strings”?
  310. # [14:38] <matjas> do you mean to say that all text in the entire DOM is stored as UCS-2 internally? (not just the JS engine) woah. do all browsers do that?
  311. # [14:39] <matjas> that does make a lot of sense
  312. # [14:40] <hsivonen> matjas: I mean they are like UCS-2 except the surregate range is not out of use
  313. # [14:40] <hsivonen> matjas: but they aren't guarenteed to be valid UTF-16
  314. # [14:40] <matjas> so, just like JS
  315. # [14:40] <hsivonen> matjas: so they aren't guaranteed to be valid UCS-2 and they aren't guaranteed to be valid UTF-16
  316. # [14:41] <hsivonen> matjas: so the correct answer is that JS/DOM strings are neither UCS-2 nor UTF-16 in the sense of being valid either
  317. # [14:41] <matjas> stuff like unpaired surrogates?
  318. # [14:41] <hsivonen> matjas: yes
  319. # [14:42] <matjas> hsivonen: thanks for clarifying
  320. # [14:42] <hsivonen> but for non-bogus results, authors should use valid UTF-16, of course
  321. # [14:43] <hsivonen> the interpretation as UTF-16 happens in layout
  322. # [14:44] <hsivonen> so you can have the high surrogate and the low surrogate in separate document.write calls and they end up rendering as one glyph
  323. # [14:44] <matjas> right
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  344. # [15:44] <jacobrask> Does anyone know if some event is emitted when an alternate stylesheet is selected?
  345. # [15:44] <jacobrask> I can't seem to find anything in the specs, but maybe something non-standard
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  348. # [15:49] * 45PAANV94 is now known as niloy_
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  352. # [15:52] <hsivonen> matjas: FWIW, in Gecko, if the most significant byte of all code units in a DOM text node is zero, Gecko stores the text 8 bits per character
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  354. # [15:53] <hsivonen> matjas: so if you have one non-ISO-8859-1 character in a comment in an inline JavaScript, the storage of the whole text node gets doubled
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  356. # [15:54] <hsivonen> #littleknownimplementationdetails
  357. # [15:54] <hsivonen> (where I meant real ISO-8859-1--not Windows-1252)
  358. # [15:55] * matjas just edited hsivonen’s comment at http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/javascript-encoding#comment-5, adding all that
  359. # [15:56] <matjas> knowledge bomb! thanks a lot
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  361. # [15:57] <hsivonen> matjas: you're welcome
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  369. # [16:28] <niloy_> how to include unicode in javascript string that are 5 hex chars long?
  370. # [16:34] <Philip`> niloy_: With surrogates, e.g. U+10000 is "\ud800\udc00"
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  372. # [16:35] <niloy_> Philip`, thanks
  373. # [16:36] <niloy_> Philip`, how did U+10000 become \ud800\udc00?
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  375. # [16:37] <niloy_> Philip`, nevermind, lemme google for it
  376. # [16:41] <hsivonen> niloy_: http://www.rishida.net/tools/conversion/
  377. # [16:41] <niloy_> thank you
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  471. # [18:48] <kennyluck> So obviously UTF-16 → UTF-32 conversion isn't straightforward.
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  473. # [18:49] <kennyluck> I guess there do exist use cases of UTF-16 escape in CSS.
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  475. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> Probably
  476. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> But enough to care?
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  487. # [18:55] <kennyluck> ms2ger, probably not really, but we just need to go to one way or another.
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  501. # [19:09] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  516. # [19:36] <divya> dglazkov: have you seen? http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/s-exp_vs_XML (there *are* a few interesting bits)
  517. # [19:36] <divya> Next, introduce macros that look exactly like elements, but that are expanded in place between the reader and the "object model"
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  519. # [19:36] <divya> errr quote from that email
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  522. # [19:39] <bga> http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/SXML.html
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  524. # [19:39] <bga> https://gist.github.com/1332310
  525. # [19:40] <dglazkov> divya: whoa, so.. many.. words...
  526. # [19:40] <divya> yeah its a rant that could have been shorter :)
  527. # [19:40] <divya> also the dude died recently I heard.
  528. # [19:41] <dglazkov> oh noes, from reading this email?
  529. # [19:41] <divya> HAHAHHAHAHA
  530. # [19:41] <yolin> does js support only ascii numbers?
  531. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> Yeah, Roman numerals are such a burden
  532. # [19:43] <yolin> but each unicode point has a number property right?
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  541. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> yolin: Yes, numbers must be composed of the ten ascii digits, and the ascii characters "+-.eE"
  542. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> All of JS's syntax is in ascii. The only non-ascii things are user-defined identifiers like variable names.
  543. # [19:53] <gsnedders> Well, theoretically host objects could be non-ascii.
  544. # [19:53] <gsnedders> But those are just identifiers.
  545. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  546. # [19:54] <yolin> will it be difficult to implement non-ascii numbers ?
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  548. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> The big question is "what's the benefit of non-ascii digits"?
  549. # [19:55] <yolin> say I have a input box which accepts numbers in some language other than english, I can directly perform calculation on the number?
  550. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Are you talking about accepting numbers that use digits elsewhere in the unicode range, or ones from completely different number systems?
  551. # [19:56] <yolin> numbers that use digits elsewhere in unicode range
  552. # [19:56] <yolin> Indian numerals is what I have in mind
  553. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> That is, there are multiple glyphs that look like "0" - are you talking about that, or about numbers like 一十三
  554. # [19:57] <gsnedders> yolin: for <input type=number> it should just be a UI issue as to what it displays.
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  556. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> In theory, <input type=number> should allow such localization, but in practice I don't think it does.
  557. # [19:57] <gsnedders> yolin: The value property should be just a Number primitive
  558. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Also it's not universally supported yet.
  559. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> So you have to convert manually, yes.
  560. # [19:58] <yolin> I was reading the unicode wiki article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapping_of_Unicode_characters
  561. # [19:58] <yolin> it mentions every unicode has a numerical property
  562. # [19:59] <yolin> which is its ascii equivalent in number
  563. # [19:59] <yolin> if thats true, it should be easy to implement non-ascii numbers?
  564. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> No, since you'd be tying basic number parsing to a giant array of unicode mappings.
  565. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> Also, while *most* number systems are base-10, not all of them are.
  566. # [20:00] <yolin> like Roman numbers?
  567. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> (Many are officially base-10, but don't use the style of digit system that English does.)
  568. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> That's an extreme example, but yet.
  569. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> s/yet/yes/
  570. # [20:00] <Philip`> It's hard to implement something that matches a user's expectation of how a number should be interpreted, since that's an ill-defined problem and can't be solved by mapping characters to digits
  571. # [20:01] <Philip`> and there's no real point implementing something that doesn't match a user's expectation
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  573. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> But also, say, the CJK longhand style, Armenian, Hebrew, and several others.
  574. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> Basically, all the number systems in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/ that aren't in the "numeric" type.
  575. # [20:01] <Philip`> (Even stuff like "0x10" and "1e+3" is a problem if you're trying to accept what a user might consider to be a number)
  576. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah, I forgot that "xX" (and soon "oObB") are allowed in numbers too.
  577. # [20:02] <yolin> okay, got it
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  585. # [20:17] <bencc> in webrtc when sending a STUN message and than passing the signaling message to the other peer
  586. # [20:18] <bencc> are the username and password attributes part of STUN or webrtc or something google made up?
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  593. # [20:28] <erlehmann> .
  594. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Is that like answering "mu"?
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  602. # [20:41] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, just testing my new IRC client :3
  603. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: Ah, kk.
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  606. # [20:44] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, <https://github.com/erlehmann/uii>, it is just a shell script wrapper for ii
  607. # [20:45] <erlehmann> ii is a client that creates directories and files for irc channels
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  610. # [20:45] <erlehmann> in this channel i talk by writing the text into ~/irc/chat.freenode.org/#whatwg/in
  611. # [20:46] <erlehmann> and what is written here is shown in ~/irc/chat.freenode.org/#whatwg/out
  612. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
  613. # [20:46] <Hixie> wow that's... cool
  614. # [20:46] <erlehmann> i consider that pretty usable. way more than xchat, irssi or *shudder* pidgin.
  615. # [20:46] <erlehmann> ii is here <http://tools.suckless.org/ii/>
  616. # [20:47] * TabAtkins still wants a minimalistic irc server that he can pipe into a webpage, so he write himself a client UI.
  617. # [20:47] <erlehmann> but it is also packaged by distributions.
  618. # [20:47] * Parts: ksweeney (~Adium@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
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  621. # [20:48] <erlehmann> oh, i also use inotify to see when a file that i have not opened is written to to show a popup using libnotify
  622. # [20:48] <erlehmann> first i went for opening terminals in that case, but it became pretty easy to spam me that way
  623. # [20:50] <erlehmann> its a shame plan9 died
  624. # [20:50] <erlehmann> the combination of tail -f and readline input really serves so much well :3
  625. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Plus: free logging!
  626. # [20:52] <erlehmann> indeed. grep was never the same.
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  628. # [20:54] <erlehmann> handling is also easier. because i do not have to learn the window management of a specific client (irssi is pretty usable, but i already have a window manager)
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  712. # Session Close: Sat Jan 21 00:00:00 2012

The end :)