/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-21 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 21 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] <jwalden> anyone familiar enough with webidl to cite the song and verse that state what the length of the ECMAScript function for a WebIDL |void foo(long a, optional long b);| would be?
  4. # [00:06] <jwalden> the length is supposed to be the "argument list length"
  5. # [00:06] <jwalden> I'm kind of guessing it's 2 there
  6. # [00:06] <jwalden> but I'm not sure
  7. # [00:07] <jwalden> and it's not clear to me how that'd be computed for a function like |void bar(long a, ...)| as a further thought
  8. # [00:08] <Hixie> why guess? why not look it up? :-) search for "The value of the Function object"
  9. # [00:09] <jwalden> I did look it up
  10. # [00:09] <jwalden> "argument list length" is not a term of art as far as I can tell
  11. # [00:10] <Hixie> yeah the term of art is "length property"
  12. # [00:10] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  13. # [00:10] <jwalden> "the maximum argument list length of the functions in the entries of S" is how it's defined
  14. # [00:11] <Hixie> right
  15. # [00:11] <jwalden> but it's not stated what "maximum argument list length" means in the context of specified-but-optional arguments, ..., and so on
  16. # [00:12] <jwalden> ECMAScript the spec had a rule for determining this stuff; webidl is doing things somewhat differently, so the rule doesn't transfer over, unfortunately
  17. # [00:12] <Hixie> the effective overload set doesn't have optional arguments, does it?
  18. # [00:12] <Hixie> i thought the effective overload set was "expanded out" for lack of a better term
  19. # [00:13] <Hixie> i.e. it's important to do step 1 of that algorithm
  20. # [00:13] <jwalden> hmm, I'd thought that was accumulating all the different instances with different arguments as a list, not something more complex
  21. # [00:13] * jwalden reads some more
  22. # [00:13] <Hixie> yeah the definition of effective overload set explicitly expands out all the optional argument cases so by the time you get to the step that talks about "the maximum argument list length" there's no optional arguments
  23. # [00:14] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  24. # [00:16] <jwalden> it really would have been preferable for typed arrays to use ECMAScript notation, given that they're trying to be basically a native-to-ECMAScript thing :-\
  25. # [00:16] <jwalden> c'est la vie, or something
  26. # [00:17] <Hixie> i think that was basically the result of the webgl guys getting tired of waiting for the tc39 guys
  27. # [00:17] <Hixie> personally i was still waiting for tc39 and think that the arraybuffer stuff is scary
  28. # [00:17] <Hixie> because of its platform-specific endianness stuff
  29. # [00:17] <jwalden> fair
  30. # [00:18] <Hixie> but at this point looks like we're stuck with it
  31. # [00:18] * jwalden knows people hugely negative on it for that reason
  32. # [00:18] <Hixie> even canvas uses arraybuffer now
  33. # [00:18] <jwalden> so far I haven't been convinced the alternatives really do well enough at it, tho
  34. # [00:18] <jwalden> but I haven't spent too much time reading up on them, so take that with a grain of salt
  35. # [00:19] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-noivbrxmxbaebseq) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  36. # [00:19] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
  37. # [00:19] * Quits: LeonieW (~LeonieW@host-89-240-55-223.as13285.net) (Quit: Carpe diem)
  38. # [00:20] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
  39. # [00:23] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  40. # [00:25] * Joins: jankeromnes (~jankeromn@acces2540.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  41. # [00:26] * Joins: jochen___ (jochen@nat/google/x-xmirzoicrglpeytt)
  42. # [00:30] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-skwuawhyqtbulfov) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  43. # [00:30] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  44. # [00:35] <Hixie> holy cow, i finally got the main whatwh bucket to below 1000 e-mails
  45. # [00:35] <paul_irish> \o\ \o/ /o/
  46. # [00:35] <Hixie> only 1638 total e-mails to go
  47. # [00:38] * Ms2ger looks at the bug count
  48. # [00:38] <jamesr_> Hixie, i believe that's an accurate characterization (re: arraybuffer/tc39)
  49. # [00:38] <Ms2ger> First you're complaining about design-by-committee, and now you're complaining about non-design-by-committee!
  50. # [00:41] * Joins: karega|aniasis (~karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com)
  51. # [00:47] <Hixie> indeed
  52. # [00:48] <Hixie> it's the "committee" part i have a problem with, no the "design" part :-P
  53. # [00:51] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  54. # [00:54] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126241040080.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  55. # [00:55] <Ms2ger> What's up next, no caring about var vs. i?
  56. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Sounds legit.
  57. # [00:56] <Hixie> what is this "caring" you speak of
  58. # [00:56] <Hixie> :-P
  59. # [00:57] * Quits: karega|aniasis (~karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  60. # [00:57] * Joins: karega|aniasis (karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com)
  61. # [01:00] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126241040080.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Quit: tantek)
  62. # [01:03] <crankharder> so, in ffx, the user is prompted whenever the application cache is initialized
  63. # [01:03] <crankharder> is there an event fired when the user confirms/denies the usage of application cache?
  64. # [01:05] <Hixie> there's an event for when the cache finished
  65. # [01:06] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.158.214) (Quit: nn)
  66. # [01:08] * Joins: pocopina (~pocopina@cpc10-camd13-2-0-cust53.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  67. # [01:09] <crankharder> when do I have to add that event, as I understand it the cache is downloadded as soon as it sees the <html> tag. so where/how do I add the event?
  68. # [01:09] <crankharder> Hixie: ^ :)
  69. # [01:16] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  70. # [01:19] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  71. # [01:23] * Joins: jarib_ (~jarib@109.74.192.179)
  72. # [01:23] * Quits: jarib_ (~jarib@109.74.192.179) (Client Quit)
  73. # [01:26] * Quits: karega|aniasis (karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  74. # [01:26] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@71.109-247-163.customer.lyse.net)
  75. # [01:27] * Joins: karega|aniasis (~karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com)
  76. # [01:32] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  77. # [01:38] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  78. # [01:39] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1) (Quit: :q)
  79. # [01:40] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1)
  80. # [01:41] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  81. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> yeah seems like arraybuffer has already joined the hallowed hall of suboptimal platform features we are now stuck with
  82. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> why tc39 didn't make the binary stuff a priority back when is beyond me
  83. # [01:43] * Quits: pocopina (~pocopina@cpc10-camd13-2-0-cust53.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  84. # [01:45] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host31-53-11-128.range31-53.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111221233052])
  85. # [01:45] <jamesr_> i'm not sure what in particular is wrong with it
  86. # [01:45] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  87. # [01:50] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  88. # [01:51] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126241014010.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  89. # [01:58] * Quits: martndemus (~martndemu@h254064.upc-h.chello.nl) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  90. # [01:59] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp)
  91. # [02:01] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126241014010.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  92. # [02:01] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  93. # [02:05] <crankharder> how can I track whether a user has approved the applicationCache?
  94. # [02:05] <crankharder> cookie?
  95. # [02:06] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-173f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  96. # [02:06] * Quits: karega|aniasis (~karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  97. # [02:09] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp)
  98. # [02:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  99. # [02:10] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  100. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> jamesr_: ask Alex Russell
  101. # [02:21] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@216.38.130.164) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  102. # [02:23] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.212.155.203) (Quit: ap)
  103. # [02:24] * Quits: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143) (Quit: Leaving...)
  104. # [02:24] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  105. # [02:24] * Quits: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-zxjjlbxxbguewxys) (Quit: ojan)
  106. # [02:25] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
  107. # [02:25] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  108. # [02:34] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-220f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  109. # [02:35] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@71.109-247-163.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  110. # [02:45] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@101.108.103.92) (Quit: จรลี จรลา ...)
  111. # [02:45] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.108.103.92) (Quit: Leaving)
  112. # [02:47] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  113. # [02:47] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  114. # [02:52] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126212150146.5.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  115. # [02:54] * Joins: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143)
  116. # [02:54] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  117. # [02:57] * Joins: [[zz]] (~q@182.53.57.169)
  118. # [02:58] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@182.53.57.169)
  119. # [03:08] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  120. # [03:08] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  121. # [03:17] * Joins: niloy__ (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  122. # [03:18] * Joins: yolin (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  123. # [03:28] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  124. # [03:30] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1) (Quit: ^z)
  125. # [03:32] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5082B65B.dip.t-dialin.net)
  126. # [03:38] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1917.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  127. # [03:38] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211583.dsl.bell.ca)
  128. # [03:39] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB0312.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  129. # [03:42] * Quits: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143) (Quit: Leaving...)
  130. # [03:55] * Joins: tmzt_ (~tmzt@adsl-69-208-8-174.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net)
  131. # [03:57] * Quits: tmzt (~tmzt@76.244.152.58) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  132. # [03:59] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-apxsqqreviggwdhj) (Quit: rniwa)
  133. # [04:02] * Joins: karega|aniasis (karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com)
  134. # [04:03] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211583.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb_)
  135. # [04:03] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@173.228.102.82)
  136. # [04:04] * Joins: abarth (u5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xfbtgkxbicnybvut)
  137. # [04:06] * Parts: bencc (~user@bzq-84-111-74-191.red.bezeqint.net)
  138. # [04:06] * Quits: karega|aniasis (karegaani@cpe-76-184-158-220.tx.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  139. # [04:08] * Quits: abarth|gardener (~abarth@2002:ada4:80d1:0:1d13:1e80:7260:7609) (Quit: abarth|gardener)
  140. # [04:11] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B136BA7.dip.t-dialin.net)
  141. # [04:13] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  142. # [04:16] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-220f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  143. # [04:22] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126212150146.5.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Quit: tantek)
  144. # [04:30] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~Tab@50-0-16-4.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  145. # [04:35] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  146. # [04:45] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  147. # [04:47] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  148. # [04:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  149. # [04:49] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@173.228.102.82) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  150. # [05:00] * Joins: primal1 (~primal1@pool-71-108-61-90.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
  151. # [05:02] * Joins: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143)
  152. # [05:03] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  153. # [05:06] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  154. # [05:09] * Quits: primal1 (~primal1@pool-71-108-61-90.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  155. # [05:23] * Quits: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143) (Quit: Leaving...)
  156. # [05:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  157. # [05:33] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  158. # [05:37] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  159. # [05:55] * Quits: yolin (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  160. # [05:55] * Quits: niloy__ (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  161. # [05:56] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@u-211130161195.u11.hotspot.ne.jp)
  162. # [05:56] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~Tab@50-0-16-4.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  163. # [05:57] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp)
  164. # [05:59] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  165. # [05:59] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  166. # [05:59] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  167. # [05:59] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp) (Client Quit)
  168. # [06:00] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  169. # [06:03] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  170. # [06:04] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp)
  171. # [06:07] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  172. # [06:07] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  173. # [06:21] * Quits: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (Remote host closed the connection)
  174. # [06:32] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@182.53.57.169) (Quit: Leaving)
  175. # [06:36] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp) (Quit: tantek)
  176. # [06:43] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  177. # [06:47] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  178. # [06:48] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp)
  179. # [06:49] * Quits: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-ozxhvrycugvbxrij) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  180. # [06:49] * Joins: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-gpnkuwtildpldzbk)
  181. # [06:51] <Hixie> is there a simple way to find out how many properties an object has, short of enumerating through the object's properties?
  182. # [06:51] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  183. # [06:51] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  184. # [06:52] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@12.144.217.18)
  185. # [06:52] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  186. # [06:54] <Hixie> shepazu: btw, iirc i wasn't just against svg getting text wrapping. i was (and still am) against the web platform getting text wrapping twice, instead of svg working with html and css to just make the text wrapping we already have work with svg.
  187. # [06:55] <Hixie> i even made proposals for how to make it work
  188. # [06:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@u-211130161195.u11.hotspot.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  189. # [06:59] <shepazu> Hixie: iirc, we tried to make the point that SVG text wrapping was not incompatible with CSS text wrapping, and that they could both use the same algorithm… to this day, I don't recall anyone stated clearly what the alleged incompatibilities were… we were (and are) quite willing to make SVG's text wrapping match the CSS model
  190. # [07:01] <Hixie> having seen what happened when xsl "used the same algorithm" as css, or indeed when svg "used css" for units and the mess that made with the 'font' property, i hope you'll understand why i (we) were skeptical...
  191. # [07:02] <Hixie> my point though was just that your tweet seemed to imply obstructionism when it was in fact just a difference in opinion as to how the feature should be implemented
  192. # [07:02] <shepazu> "skeptical" is rather a mild way of putting it… I would characterize it more as "hostile"
  193. # [07:03] <Hixie> well, that was probably more a result of other things going on at the time
  194. # [07:03] <Hixie> e.g. the svg wg blatently ignoring w3c process, etc
  195. # [07:03] <Hixie> water under the bridge, hopefully
  196. # [07:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@u-211130161195.u11.hotspot.ne.jp)
  197. # [07:17] <shepazu> Hixie: by "how the feature should be implemented", I'm only able to find a single concrete suggestion from you, which was to remove text-wrapping from SVGT1.2 and replace it with HTML+CSS in a <foreignObject> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2006Mar/0174.html … maybe I'm missing some earlier email
  198. # [07:17] <Hixie> yes, that's what i was talking about
  199. # [07:18] <Hixie> i still think that that's the way to do it (or rather, the way to do it is to have just an html page, and the wrapping done in css via reference to an svg path or other construct)
  200. # [07:18] <shepazu> I don't think most people would consider that "text wrapping in SVG"
  201. # [07:19] <Hixie> i don't think most people think of "svg" as a special thing. it's text wrapping on the web that matters.
  202. # [07:20] <shepazu> I think that most people who use SVG certainly do think of it as different than HTML… they author it with Inkscape or Illustrator
  203. # [07:20] <Hixie> that's just a historical artefact of how svg was developed
  204. # [07:20] <Hixie> svg is just a part of the web platform
  205. # [07:21] <Hixie> it harms us all to consider it a silo
  206. # [07:21] <Hixie> it's a kind of "not invented here" syndrome
  207. # [07:22] <shepazu> it's not a "historical artefact", it's a workflow that hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of people use (e.g. designers)
  208. # [07:22] * Hixie shrugs
  209. # [07:22] <Hixie> ok
  210. # [07:22] <Hixie> i have no interest debating this right now :-)
  211. # [07:22] <shepazu> so, if that is your solution, then yes, reading back through some of the archived emails, I think it was you being obstructionist
  212. # [07:23] <shepazu> well, then we agree on something, because I'm not interested in debating it either :)
  213. # [07:24] <Hixie> i think you are causing massive harm to the web's design by sticking to this silo model
  214. # [07:24] * Joins: d_rwin (~d_rwin@117.99.180.54)
  215. # [07:24] <Hixie> and i think it's disingenous to say that disagreeing with your silo model is obstructionist
  216. # [07:24] <Hixie> but i gotta go. bbl.
  217. # [07:24] * Quits: d_rwin (~d_rwin@117.99.180.54) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  218. # [07:25] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186)
  219. # [07:25] <shepazu> I think the evidence speaks for itself that I've tried very hard to find ways for SVG, CSS, and HTML to work smoothly together, forming the FX task force, urging you to allow SVG in HTML, etc.
  220. # [07:26] <shepazu> I even tried to correct the course of the Compound Documents WG, though the harm had already been done there
  221. # [07:27] <shepazu> and your characterizing what I'm saying as a "silo model" is just silly
  222. # [07:29] <shepazu> further, I think you are just saying things "for the record", rather than having a real conversation, so I'm happy to leave it as it stands
  223. # [07:35] * Quits: mrdoob (~mrdoob@67.8.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  224. # [07:37] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  225. # [07:44] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@c-98-207-157-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  226. # [07:48] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  227. # [07:49] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  228. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> does gecko have any support for transferable objects yet?
  229. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-dom-interfaces.html#transferable-objects
  230. # [07:50] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@i223-219-36-148.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  231. # [07:54] * Quits: izhak (1000@188.168.203.93) (Remote host closed the connection)
  232. # [07:58] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  233. # [08:00] * Joins: Taggnostr (~quassel@dyn57-362.yok.fi)
  234. # [08:05] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-4.1450hg.fc15 [XULRunner 8.0/20111108090029])
  235. # [08:07] * Joins: gwicke_ (~gabriel@adsl-75-55-201-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  236. # [08:20] * Joins: KillerX_ (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  237. # [08:24] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  238. # [08:24] * KillerX_ is now known as KillerX
  239. # [08:33] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  240. # [08:33] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  241. # [08:37] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-167-87.adsl.inetia.pl)
  242. # [08:38] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.13) (Quit: weinig)
  243. # [08:49] * Joins: danielfilho_ (~daniel@187.31.77.7)
  244. # [08:50] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  245. # [08:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@u-211130161195.u11.hotspot.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  246. # [08:52] * Quits: danielfilho (~daniel@187.31.77.7) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  247. # [08:52] * danielfilho_ is now known as danielfilho
  248. # [08:57] * Joins: KillerX_ (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  249. # [08:59] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  250. # [08:59] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  251. # [08:59] * KillerX_ is now known as KillerX
  252. # [09:11] * Quits: gwicke_ (~gabriel@adsl-75-55-201-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  253. # [09:25] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126241026227.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Quit: tantek)
  254. # [09:33] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@182.53.57.169)
  255. # [09:42] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: KillerX)
  256. # [09:44] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.158.214)
  257. # [09:48] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  258. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks
  259. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> Np :)
  260. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> I should have searched more carefully
  261. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> Any other bugs you filed? ;)
  262. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> though I guess now if somebody else searches for "mutation observers" before filing a feature bug, they will see that and know
  263. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I filed a bug for Transferable objects
  264. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> and .. one more
  265. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> I forget what for
  266. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> lemme look
  267. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> Don't remember a bug for that one
  268. # [10:02] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186)
  269. # [10:02] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186) (Remote host closed the connection)
  270. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> btw, do you know if dupes show up in the bug wizard thingey?
  271. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> hmm, probably not I guess
  272. # [10:03] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186)
  273. # [10:04] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  274. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> anyway, it seems the transferable objects bug was in fact the only other I filed today
  275. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=720083
  276. # [10:04] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  277. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> oh wait
  278. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> I didn't see the getusermedia one til now
  279. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> so thanks again!
  280. # [10:06] <Ms2ger> :)
  281. # [10:06] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  282. # [10:09] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  283. # [10:11] * Quits: Obvious_MkII (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  284. # [10:11] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@12.144.217.18) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  285. # [10:15] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net)
  286. # [10:17] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  287. # [10:23] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  288. # [10:29] * Joins: msankhala (~mutant@unaffiliated/msankhala)
  289. # [10:35] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B137D0F.dip.t-dialin.net)
  290. # [10:40] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-191-113.dynamic.qsc.de)
  291. # [10:42] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7004.dip.t-dialin.net)
  292. # [10:47] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  293. # [10:47] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  294. # [10:51] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  295. # [10:52] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186)
  296. # [10:54] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  297. # [10:56] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186)
  298. # [10:59] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@49.249.19.186) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  299. # [11:17] * Joins: jdong_bot_ (~jdong_bot@117.79.232.225)
  300. # [11:17] * Quits: msankhala (~mutant@unaffiliated/msankhala) (Remote host closed the connection)
  301. # [11:19] * Quits: jdong_bot_ (~jdong_bot@117.79.232.225) (Remote host closed the connection)
  302. # [11:19] * Joins: jdong_bot_ (~jdong_bot@117.79.232.225)
  303. # [11:48] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  304. # [12:00] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  305. # [12:01] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082B1A9.dip.t-dialin.net)
  306. # [12:04] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5082B65B.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  307. # [12:11] <hsivonen> hmm. Wikipedia says Chrome added Theora and H.264 in different releases.
  308. # [12:11] <hsivonen> that's bogus, right?
  309. # [12:11] <hsivonen> also, Wikipedia says the Android browser added Theora in 2.3 and H.264 in 3.0. That's completely bogus, right?
  310. # [12:12] <hsivonen> the truthiness of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5_video#Table is sad
  311. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> +[citation needed] :)
  312. # [12:21] <hsivonen> also, it's sad that Wikipedia considers the WMP gimmick extension to Firefox to be on the same level as things that actually add codec support to IE9 in a way that makes the <video> APIs work
  313. # [12:22] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  314. # [12:23] <doublec> hsivonen: I wasn't aware the android browser did Theora - does it really?
  315. # [12:23] <hsivonen> doublec: not that I know
  316. # [12:23] * doublec tries
  317. # [12:23] <hsivonen> doublec: see "completely bogus" above
  318. # [12:24] <doublec> hsivonen: nope, it doesn't
  319. # [12:24] <doublec> hsivonen: at least on ice cream sandwich on a nexus S it fails
  320. # [12:27] <hsivonen> Is there any way to map Maxthon versions to Trident versions? Or are they orthogonal? Mathon uses whatever Trident there is?
  321. # [12:27] <hsivonen> s/Mathon/Maxthon/
  322. # [12:27] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  323. # [12:27] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
  324. # [12:28] * Joins: yolin (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  325. # [12:30] * Joins: niloy__ (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  326. # [12:38] * Joins: niloy_54678 (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  327. # [12:39] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  328. # [12:41] <hsivonen> so, according to StatCounter, the usage share of WebM-enabled browser is more than the usage share of H.264-enabled browsers in Europe
  329. # [12:41] <hsivonen> "according to" in the sense of plugging statcounter number into my script that embodies knowledge of which versions support what
  330. # [12:42] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@c-98-207-157-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ^z)
  331. # [12:44] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126241056194.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  332. # [12:49] <hsivonen> globally even
  333. # [12:55] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-88-138f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  334. # [13:05] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  335. # [13:08] * Quits: yolin (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  336. # [13:08] * Quits: niloy__ (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  337. # [13:09] * Quits: niloy_54678 (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  338. # [13:22] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  339. # [13:30] * Joins: FlorianX1 (~Dimitri@p4FCF7056.dip.t-dialin.net)
  340. # [13:32] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7004.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  341. # [13:39] * Joins: izhak (1000@188.168.203.93)
  342. # [13:45] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  343. # [13:46] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  344. # [13:57] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com)
  345. # [14:01] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  346. # [14:02] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  347. # [14:02] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  348. # [14:21] <hsivonen> gotta step away from the computer to avoid getting stuck in the 386 mode replying to tweets commenting on my WebM math
  349. # [14:30] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  350. # [14:31] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  351. # [14:39] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host31-53-11-128.range31-53.btcentralplus.com)
  352. # [14:43] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  353. # [14:44] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  354. # [14:45] * Joins: 16SAAK1AP (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  355. # [14:45] * Joins: 20QAAMB2L (~niloy@49.248.66.89)
  356. # [14:48] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
  357. # [14:51] * 20QAAMB2L is now known as yolin
  358. # [14:54] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  359. # [14:56] * Quits: Rubennn (~Rubennn@apher.gewooniets.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  360. # [15:08] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  361. # [15:36] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  362. # [15:38] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  363. # [15:42] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host31-53-11-128.range31-53.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  364. # [15:46] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  365. # [15:48] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net)
  366. # [15:56] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  367. # [15:58] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-14-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  368. # [16:00] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  369. # [16:03] * Joins: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143)
  370. # [16:09] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-191-113.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  371. # [16:10] * Quits: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143) (Quit: Leaving...)
  372. # [16:23] * smaug____ kicks Google hard
  373. # [16:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: FWIW, I believe *technically* Opera on Linux/FreeBSD does still support H.264 if the system does, it's just the standard codecs are blacklisted (due to stability issues, AIUI).
  374. # [16:35] * Joins: mrdoob (~mrdoob@67.8.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es)
  375. # [16:35] <smaug____> perhaps other browser vendors should have automatic tool to remove Chrome ads
  376. # [16:36] <smaug____> s/browser vendors/browsers/
  377. # [16:36] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  378. # [16:37] * gsnedders might be wrong, though
  379. # [16:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: foolip said he removed support for that
  380. # [16:39] <hsivonen> I succumbed to 386 and added a FAQ section to my post
  381. # [16:56] * Quits: mrdoob (~mrdoob@67.8.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Remote host closed the connection)
  382. # [16:57] * Joins: mrdoob (~mrdoob@67.8.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es)
  383. # [17:02] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host31-53-11-128.range31-53.btcentralplus.com)
  384. # [17:11] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B137D0F.dip.t-dialin.net)
  385. # [17:13] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-191-113.dynamic.qsc.de)
  386. # [17:17] <hsivonen> argh. added even more 386 about Chrome (not) dropping h.264 support
  387. # [17:22] * Quits: 16SAAK1AP (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  388. # [17:23] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  389. # [17:23] * Quits: yolin (~niloy@49.248.66.89) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  390. # [17:29] <hsivonen> sigh. even at hacker news they speculate without reading the script I provided so that everyone can see what I did
  391. # [17:32] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@49.249.1.158)
  392. # [17:40] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  393. # [17:51] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@bdc207.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  394. # [17:51] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@bdc207.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Changing host)
  395. # [17:51] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  396. # [17:53] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@49.249.1.158) (Read error: No route to host)
  397. # [17:54] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  398. # [17:54] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  399. # [17:55] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  400. # [18:02] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126241056194.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  401. # [18:04] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  402. # [18:07] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com)
  403. # [18:09] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126194030098.1.tss.access-internet.ne.jp)
  404. # [18:10] * Quits: jankeromnes (~jankeromn@acces2540.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  405. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> Hixie, something like Object.getOwnPropertyNames(obj).length, maybe?
  406. # [18:27] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  407. # [18:30] * Joins: jankeromnes (~jankeromn@acces2540.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  408. # [18:31] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  409. # [18:40] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  410. # [18:42] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  411. # [18:43] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  412. # [18:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  413. # [18:58] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-14-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  414. # [19:00] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-14-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  415. # [19:06] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: Leaving)
  416. # [19:24] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: RobbertAtWork)
  417. # [19:24] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  418. # [19:30] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  419. # [19:34] * Quits: FlorianX1 (~Dimitri@p4FCF7056.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  420. # [19:36] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  421. # [19:38] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  422. # [19:47] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  423. # [19:48] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Remote host closed the connection)
  424. # [19:52] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  425. # [20:01] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  426. # [20:03] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-88-138f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  427. # [20:06] * Quits: mrdoob (~mrdoob@67.8.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  428. # [20:10] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241)
  429. # [20:10] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  430. # [20:10] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  431. # [20:11] * Joins: mrdoob (~mrdoob@173.23.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es)
  432. # [20:13] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  433. # [20:20] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-14-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  434. # [20:35] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-5f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  435. # [20:58] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  436. # [21:01] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-199-101-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  437. # [21:07] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  438. # [21:10] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-167-87.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  439. # [21:11] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-199-101-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
  440. # [21:15] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-199-101-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  441. # [21:19] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  442. # [21:20] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.158.214) (Quit: nn)
  443. # [21:32] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  444. # [21:33] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: RobbertAtWork)
  445. # [21:35] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  446. # [21:43] * Quits: WesleyL (~Wesley@static.43.95.46.78.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
  447. # [21:44] * Joins: gwicke (gabriel@conference/wikimedia-hackathon/x-kmffofjepgvaqddu)
  448. # [21:49] * Joins: Wesley- (~Wesley@static.43.95.46.78.clients.your-server.de)
  449. # [21:49] * Wesley- is now known as WesL
  450. # [21:49] * WesL is now known as WesleyL
  451. # [21:50] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  452. # [21:55] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  453. # [21:59] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  454. # [22:06] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  455. # [22:08] <jacobolus> in a hacker news discussion, I criticized the usefulness of -webkit-cross-fade, saying that just applying alpha transparency to the top image should do the trick. in response someone pasted the text of the spec. as written, it's actually wrong. should I tell someone about that?
  456. # [22:08] <jacobolus> the spec is here http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-images-20110217/#cross-fade-function
  457. # [22:08] <jacobolus> and the bit that's wrong is "Then, the start image has a global alpha applied to it equal to (1-p), the end image has a global alpha applied to it equal to p, and the end image is then composited over the start image with the source-over operation. [[PORTERDUFF]]"
  458. # [22:13] <jacobolus> in particular, compositing the end image (to take Porter–Duff’s example, let’s say picture A) *over* the start image (picture B), we end up with for each pixel–channel (assuming pre-multiplied alpha) is c_O = c_A * 1 + c_B * (1 - alpha_A)
  459. # [22:15] <jacobolus> if the top image is semitransparent, and the bottom image is opaque, what we get as a result is a pixel color linearly interpolated between the bottom pixel and the top pixel at the amount of the opacity of the top image, i.e. a "cross fade"
  460. # [22:16] <jacobolus> but so anyway, where the spec goes wrong is in stating that an alpha should be applied to the bottom image AND THEN the top image should be composited onto it using the PD "over" operation
  461. # [22:17] <jacobolus> the PD over operation already includes applying such an alpha to the bottom image, inherently as part of its function
  462. # [22:17] <jacobolus> so what the spec tells us to do is apply such an alpha multiplier to the bottom image TWICE, which is clearly wrong
  463. # [22:19] <jacobolus> Bringing Porter Duff into this part of the spec at all is unnecessary complexity and likely to lead to confusion. Instead, the spec should stipulate that (in non-premultiplied-alpha terms) the cross fade should straight linearly interpolate between the R, G, B, and A components of the two images
  464. # [22:19] <jacobolus> that would make it do the right thing when the original images themselves are semi-transparent (which is the only use case not adequately served by the simple "set the opacity on the top layer" method)
  465. # [22:20] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  466. # [22:21] <jacobolus> in my opinion, the parts of the spec about taking two images of different sizes and cross-fading between them by interpolating between their heights and widths seems like a solution in search of a problem. are there concrete use cases in mind for that? my first suggestion would be to drop the spec altogether, as unnecessary
  467. # [22:22] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: you might find the above few comments useful? ↑
  468. # [22:22] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  469. # [22:30] * Quits: jankeromnes (~jankeromn@acces2540.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5)
  470. # [22:32] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-191-113.dynamic.qsc.de) (Quit: Leaving)
  471. # [22:34] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  472. # [22:38] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-199-101-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
  473. # [23:01] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB0312.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
  474. # [23:03] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-199-101-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  475. # [23:16] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  476. # [23:18] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@c-98-207-157-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  477. # [23:36] * Quits: ivan`` (~ivan@li125-242.members.linode.com) (Changing host)
  478. # [23:36] * Joins: ivan`` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  479. # [23:41] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  480. # [23:42] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  481. # [23:47] * Quits: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-gpnkuwtildpldzbk) (Quit: Leaving)
  482. # [23:52] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  483. # Session Close: Sun Jan 22 00:00:00 2012

The end :)