/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-23 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 23 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Joins: Frozen (~Frozen@2a01:e35:8a2f:2a60:21f:d0ff:fe53:75b2)
  4. # [00:09] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tzing)
  5. # [00:10] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net)
  6. # [00:10] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  7. # [00:11] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  8. # [00:12] * Joins: andyg_ (~andyg@CPE-124-189-148-81.sqcy1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  9. # [00:14] * Parts: andyg_ (~andyg@CPE-124-189-148-81.sqcy1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  10. # [00:15] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  11. # [00:15] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tzing)
  12. # [00:21] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-100f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  13. # [00:24] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  14. # [00:26] * Quits: Frozen (~Frozen@2a01:e35:8a2f:2a60:21f:d0ff:fe53:75b2) (Quit: @++ tout le monde)
  15. # [00:26] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  16. # [00:31] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@69-165-131-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  17. # [00:31] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@69-165-131-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  18. # [00:33] * Quits: wookiehangover (~wookiehan@c-67-161-138-118.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: i'm out)
  19. # [00:45] * Quits: pocopina (~pocopina@cpc10-camd13-2-0-cust53.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  20. # [00:49] * Joins: wookiehangover (~wookiehan@c-67-161-138-118.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  21. # [01:07] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  22. # [01:09] * Quits: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120118081945])
  23. # [01:12] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  24. # [01:16] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@199-83-223-112.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  25. # [01:22] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  26. # [01:24] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  27. # [01:25] * Joins: twisted` (~anonymous@p5DDBBC39.dip.t-dialin.net)
  28. # [01:26] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126212030148.5.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Quit: tantek)
  29. # [01:39] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@69-165-131-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  30. # [01:39] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@101.108.110.92)
  31. # [01:40] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  32. # [01:43] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@101.108.99.136) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  33. # [01:43] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.108.99.136) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  34. # [01:48] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  35. # [01:54] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@69-165-131-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  36. # [01:56] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.108.110.92)
  37. # [01:57] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.108.110.92) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  38. # [02:02] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  39. # [02:07] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  40. # [02:12] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  41. # [02:12] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  42. # [02:23] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  43. # [02:31] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@199-83-223-112.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Quit: dydx)
  44. # [02:32] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  45. # [02:34] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  46. # [02:35] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ai126212021109.5.tik.access-internet.ne.jp)
  47. # [02:35] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  48. # [02:54] * Quits: [[zzz]] (~q@101.108.110.92) (Quit: จรลี จรลา ...)
  49. # [02:58] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  50. # [03:03] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  51. # [03:06] * Joins: [[zz]] (~q@101.108.124.104)
  52. # [03:06] * Joins: auk (~scott@AMontsouris-752-1-134-124.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  53. # [03:08] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.108.124.104)
  54. # [03:11] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  55. # [03:18] * Quits: auk (~scott@AMontsouris-752-1-134-124.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  56. # [03:20] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  57. # [03:27] * Joins: auk (~scott@AMontsouris-752-1-134-124.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  58. # [03:34] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  59. # [03:35] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  60. # [03:36] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  61. # [03:39] * Joins: tantek__ (~tantek@wave.mozilla.or.jp)
  62. # [03:39] * Joins: tantek___ (~tantek@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  63. # [03:39] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ai126212021109.5.tik.access-internet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  64. # [03:39] * tantek___ is now known as tantek
  65. # [03:39] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  66. # [03:42] * Quits: auk (~scott@AMontsouris-752-1-134-124.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  67. # [03:42] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com)
  68. # [03:43] * Quits: tantek__ (~tantek@wave.mozilla.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  69. # [03:58] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  70. # [04:01] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@69-165-131-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  71. # [04:19] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  72. # [04:22] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  73. # [04:22] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  74. # [04:24] * Quits: gwicke (gabriel@conference/wikimedia-hackathon/x-jplqmqsxrizrnycv) (Remote host closed the connection)
  75. # [04:25] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com)
  76. # [04:35] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  77. # [04:40] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  78. # [04:41] * Joins: Seta00 (~Seta00@seta00.com)
  79. # [04:48] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  80. # [04:54] * Quits: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (Remote host closed the connection)
  81. # [04:54] * Quits: Seta00 (~Seta00@seta00.com) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  82. # [04:55] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@69-165-131-36.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  83. # [05:00] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  84. # [05:06] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  85. # [05:06] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  86. # [05:14] * Quits: wookiehangover (~wookiehan@c-67-161-138-118.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  87. # [05:19] * Joins: wookiehangover (~wookiehan@c-67-161-138-118.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  88. # [05:24] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  89. # [05:27] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: tantek)
  90. # [05:28] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  91. # [05:34] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.216.40)
  92. # [05:37] * Joins: Astrology (~Evanescen@60.183.221.16)
  93. # [05:39] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.216.40) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  94. # [05:44] * Quits: Astrology (~Evanescen@60.183.221.16) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  95. # [05:45] * Joins: benschwar (~benschwar@owa.rezeko.com)
  96. # [05:46] * Quits: benschwar (~benschwar@owa.rezeko.com) (Client Quit)
  97. # [05:54] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.221.137)
  98. # [06:05] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  99. # [06:07] * Joins: Areks|2 (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  100. # [06:11] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com)
  101. # [06:12] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  102. # [06:24] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@69-165-131-36.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  103. # [06:28] * Joins: thedjpetersen1 (~subway@c-98-246-235-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  104. # [06:30] * Quits: thedjpetersen1 (~subway@c-98-246-235-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: node-irc says goodbye)
  105. # [06:41] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  106. # [06:51] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  107. # [06:57] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  108. # [07:00] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@EM114-48-114-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  109. # [07:03] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@EM114-48-114-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  110. # [07:23] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1C84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  111. # [07:33] * Joins: yolin (~niloy@122.179.129.91)
  112. # [07:38] * Quits: yolin (~niloy@122.179.129.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
  113. # [07:38] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@m6645-0145234122.pck.nerim.net)
  114. # [07:40] * Joins: niloy_ (~niloy@122.179.129.91)
  115. # [07:41] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-199-101-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  116. # [07:46] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@vpn7.hotsplots.net)
  117. # [07:49] * Quits: mrdoob (~mrdoob@7.23.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  118. # [07:52] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-199-101-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
  119. # [08:01] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  120. # [08:01] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@m6645-0145234122.pck.nerim.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  121. # [08:06] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  122. # [08:12] * Quits: niloy_ (~niloy@122.179.129.91) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  123. # [08:16] * Joins: xec (~xec@188.95.241.142)
  124. # [08:21] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.221.137) (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/)
  125. # [08:22] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.221.137)
  126. # [08:22] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-100f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  127. # [08:23] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.221.137) (Client Quit)
  128. # [08:41] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@vpn7.hotsplots.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  129. # [08:41] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  130. # [08:44] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  131. # [08:46] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-fyusjlixicjytapo) (Remote host closed the connection)
  132. # [08:46] * Joins: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-hvhzaipsgfaeiyyc)
  133. # [08:55] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  134. # [09:03] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@i118-21-136-4.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp)
  135. # [09:04] * Joins: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  136. # [09:11] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  137. # [09:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  138. # [09:13] <zcorpan> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76811
  139. # [09:15] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@i118-21-136-4.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp) (Quit: tantek)
  140. # [09:16] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/#!/simukis/status/161097038719762432
  141. # [09:17] <zcorpan> I accidentally h.264
  142. # [09:18] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  143. # [09:19] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl)
  144. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> "It just happens, that about every computer has H.264 libraries and they get linked accidentally"
  145. # [09:22] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@203.215.136.248)
  146. # [09:23] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  147. # [09:24] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@122.179.129.91)
  148. # [09:25] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.127.125)
  149. # [09:32] * Quits: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B135DA5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  150. # [09:33] * Joins: pocopina (~pocopina@li298-99.members.linode.com)
  151. # [09:33] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  152. # [09:35] * Joins: twisted`_ (~anonymous@p5DDBAA18.dip.t-dialin.net)
  153. # [09:38] * Quits: twisted` (~anonymous@p5DDBBC39.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  154. # [09:38] * twisted`_ is now known as twisted`
  155. # [09:38] * Joins: Druid_ (~Druid@p5B13760B.dip.t-dialin.net)
  156. # [09:39] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@122.179.129.91) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  157. # [09:48] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  158. # [09:49] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  159. # [09:49] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  160. # [09:50] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  161. # [09:51] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@122.179.129.91)
  162. # [09:53] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  163. # [09:53] * mhausenblas_ is now known as mhausenblas
  164. # [09:53] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7AB3.dip.t-dialin.net)
  165. # [09:56] * Joins: Neocortex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  166. # [09:57] <abarth> Ms2ger: pretty harsh words for ap :(
  167. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> Deserved ones, IMO
  168. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> He keeps hurting the web for webkit's sake
  169. # [09:58] <abarth> what's the path forward here? we remove URL?
  170. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  171. # [09:58] <abarth> ok
  172. # [09:59] <abarth> seems reasonable, but I'm sorry I don't have the energy to argue with AP on this topic
  173. # [09:59] <abarth> too busy arguing with him about Content-Disposition
  174. # [10:00] <Ms2ger> Oh, I have lots of energy to argue ;)
  175. # [10:00] <Ms2ger> Now, to fight dom2html
  176. # [10:01] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@122.179.129.91) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  177. # [10:01] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  178. # [10:05] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  179. # [10:05] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Read error: No route to host)
  180. # [10:11] <hsivonen> speaking of WebKit and hurting the Web, did Apple fork WebKit for iBooks 2?
  181. # [10:11] <hsivonen> will all WebKit devs have to deal with -ibooks stuff living on WebKit trunk?
  182. # [10:12] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  183. # [10:12] <hsivonen> is there already a source drop of iBooks-modified WebKit?
  184. # [10:17] <jgraham> heycam: So I still don't understand how one is supposed to algorithmically determine what is a platform object and what is not, since the definition seems to be based on intent.
  185. # [10:18] <jgraham> Is it intended that platform objects have some hidden state that enables one to determine that they are platform objects?
  186. # [10:19] <jgraham> If so is it intended that e.g. a third party javascript library can never implement an IDL interface (since the browser wouldn't know how to check for the hidden flag)
  187. # [10:20] <Ms2ger> "An ECMAScript library that adds support for some Web API that is not natively supported by a browser would also be considered to expose platform objects."
  188. # [10:20] <heycam> jgraham, there's a restriction now that platform objects (ones that aren't for exceptions, or platform array objects) can only implement "normal" interfaces and user objects can only implement callback interfaces
  189. # [10:20] <heycam> jgraham, but yes because we aren't doing an explicit check on [[Class]] or whatever, there is some hidden state in there
  190. # [10:21] <heycam> jgraham, how to determine whether a given object is considered to implement a given interface isn't defined exactly
  191. # [10:21] <jgraham> heycam: Right I think that is my point. If a platform object is one that implements an interface and you can't tell what implements an interface you can't make platform objects
  192. # [10:21] <heycam> jgraham, but there is a requirement that say an object returned from `readonly attribute Node? parentNode;` is a platform object that implements Node
  193. # [10:22] <heycam> jgraham, just because platform objects are the only things that can implement (non-callback) interfaces
  194. # [10:23] <heycam> jgraham, tbh I was a bit lazy, and I think the concept of platform vs user objects could probably be eliminated, since they are always distinct anyway (user objects can't implement Node, platform objects can't implement EventListener)
  195. # [10:23] <jgraham> I am at least pretty sure than in the current state of the spec, the browser isPlatformObject check will basically amount to "is this implemented natively in the browser"
  196. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> Sounds like the right thing to do
  197. # [10:25] <jgraham> IIRC there is at least one situation where you need to take an arbitary object and determine if it is a platform object or not (overloading resolution with arrays, perhaps?)
  198. # [10:25] <heycam> "natively in the browser" is not exactly right; it's more like "has some hidden state variable set that only the given implementation would know"
  199. # [10:25] <heycam> jgraham, there you need to know whether it is a native Array object (easy to check), a platform array object, or a platform object that also supports indexed properties
  200. # [10:26] <jgraham> Either that is an equivalent statement or we will be in a bad state where some magic flags will have an effect on some browsers but not others
  201. # [10:26] <heycam> ok
  202. # [10:26] <heycam> there's probably a problem
  203. # [10:26] <heycam> let's say you have the native browser C++ implementation of some APIs
  204. # [10:26] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-31.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  205. # [10:26] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-31.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  206. # [10:26] <heycam> as well as a JS library that implements some other APIs
  207. # [10:26] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-31.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  208. # [10:26] <heycam> the C++ implementation has an operation that takes a sequence
  209. # [10:27] <heycam> the JS library vends an object that supports indexed properties
  210. # [10:27] <heycam> how is the C++ implementation to know that the JS library objects "implements" the IDL interface with indexed properties
  211. # [10:27] <heycam> or even what that other IDL interface is
  212. # [10:28] <abarth> hsivonen: i haven't seen any -ibook stuff in WebKit, but I don't venture into CSS land much
  213. # [10:28] <heycam> I don't think it's possible then for a native C++ implementation and a JS library implementation of APIs to coexist
  214. # [10:28] <heycam> at least if they don't share knowledge about these internal state bits
  215. # [10:30] <heycam> I should probably remove mention of JS libraries implementing APIs, and talk more generally about it not mattering what languages (JS or C++) implements given interfaces, just that they need to share this internal state information
  216. # [10:30] <heycam> jgraham, wdyt?
  217. # [10:30] <abarth> i don't see anything about ibooks on http://opensource.apple.com/
  218. # [10:31] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  219. # [10:32] * Joins: JakeA (~Adium@93-97-17-15.zone5.bethere.co.uk)
  220. # [10:32] <jgraham> heycam: I am a bit skeptical about something that would allow random on-the-web javascript libraries to set some flags that have magic behaviour in some implementations. Of course if some browser wants to implement their DOM APIs in javascript or a javascript/C++ mix, that should be possible
  221. # [10:33] <heycam> jgraham, right so I think that's all I want to enable
  222. # [10:33] <heycam> jgraham, i.e. avoid "host object" vs "native object" terminology
  223. # [10:33] <jgraham> OK, so as long as it is clearly scoped to that, IO think it is fine
  224. # [10:33] <heycam> jgraham, so I should forget about random JS libraries
  225. # [10:33] <jgraham> s/IO/I/
  226. # [10:33] * heycam will have a go at writing that tomorrow
  227. # [10:34] <jgraham> Great, thanks
  228. # [10:37] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  229. # [10:37] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  230. # [10:40] <hsivonen> abarth: the iBooks stuff is based on WebKit, though, right? It would be really weird for Apple to implement the common stuff a second time.
  231. # [10:40] <abarth> dunno
  232. # [10:40] <abarth> i bet they have an internal fork
  233. # [10:40] <jgraham> Pretty sure that at least some older Apple ePub reader was basically WebKit
  234. # [10:40] <abarth> it would be tough to land that proprietary stuff in WebKit
  235. # [10:41] <heycam> Ms2ger, "I propose that we add a pointer to the contemporary specification to the following specifications: […] DOM 2 Events (D3E) "
  236. # [10:41] <heycam> Ms2ger, slip of the tongue? :)
  237. # [10:42] <heycam> Ms2ger, or is the bracketed spec what the old spec should be pointing to (not the shortname of the obsolete spec)
  238. # [10:42] <heycam> Ms2ger, (if so, nm me!)
  239. # [10:42] <hsivonen> abarth: it would be cool to see the Apple WebKit team oppose to landing that stuff as vigorously as they opposed to landing the Dart stuff. :-)
  240. # [10:43] <abarth> there's certainly some tension in the webkit community around these sorts of issues
  241. # [10:44] <abarth> the project is wrestling with how to be innovative without going in every direction at once
  242. # [10:46] <abarth> (i should also say that I don't know much specifically about ibooks except what i read in articles like http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-apple-is-sabotaging-an-open-standard-for-digital-books/4378 )
  243. # [10:46] * Joins: akamike (u5089@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcukuewpkprvghoi)
  244. # [10:46] <heycam> tbh I don't really see a problem with iBooks doing this, if it doesn't impact WebKit more generally -- if Apple wishes to maintain an internal fork for their experimental syntax, that's up to them
  245. # [10:46] <heycam> it might even provide good feedback to the CSS WG for the standards based features
  246. # [10:46] * Parts: JakeA (~Adium@93-97-17-15.zone5.bethere.co.uk)
  247. # [10:47] <heycam> (this is wrt to web features btw; I have no idea whether their -ibook-* features are detrimental to EPUB standardisation efforts)
  248. # [10:48] <abarth> heycam: sure, but presumably the LGPL would compel them to release the source
  249. # [10:49] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  250. # [10:49] <heycam> abarth, sure, but I wouldn't expect that source to be used as a web browser engine for other products
  251. # [10:49] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  252. # [10:53] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net)
  253. # [10:56] <asmodai> Must say I like Opera Mobile the most on my Android devices.
  254. # [10:56] <asmodai> Especially great how it reopens all my tabs after it got pushed out of active memory. Most other browsers give you a clean slate when you start the browser again.
  255. # [10:56] <hsivonen> heycam: this sort of thing could be detrimental to writing Gecko, Presto or Trident-based ebook readers.
  256. # [10:57] <hsivonen> heycam: and if one believes that everything is moving to the Web, ebook readers will be Web apps, too
  257. # [10:57] <heycam> hsivonen, that is true, and I guess I was just thinking about this from a web browser engine PoV rather than eBook
  258. # [10:58] <hsivonen> asmodai: Fennec Native reopens the tabs when reopening after being killed by the OS.
  259. # [10:58] <hsivonen> asmodai: (though there's a bug that makes the frontmost tab reopen twice.)
  260. # [10:58] <asmodai> hsivonen: I found Fennec to be not so good :(
  261. # [10:58] * Quits: Areks|2 (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  262. # [10:58] <heycam> hsivonen, who is to say Apple (or other WebKit contributors) are not willing to implement eventually unprefixed, standards-cooked versions of features they implemented with -ibook-* prefixes
  263. # [10:58] <asmodai> I tried normal, beta, aurora, and nightly.
  264. # [10:58] <hsivonen> asmodai: XUL or Native?
  265. # [10:58] <asmodai> Mmm, good question
  266. # [10:58] <hsivonen> asmodai: when did you try Nightly?
  267. # [10:59] <asmodai> about 4-5 days ago or so
  268. # [10:59] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@70-36-146-31.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  269. # [10:59] <hsivonen> heycam: to a large extent, the position of MS Office is based on support for .doc, not on support for ISO OOXML
  270. # [10:59] * heycam sucks because he complains (mostly in his head, sometimes in public forums) about Firefox Native vs Firefox XUL
  271. # [10:59] <asmodai> hsivonen: downloaded the apk from a mozilla page
  272. # [10:59] * heycam should help improve Firefox Native rather than complain, of course
  273. # [11:00] <hsivonen> asmodai: recently?
  274. # [11:00] <hsivonen> oh. 4-5 day
  275. # [11:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: 4-5 days ago
  276. # [11:00] <hsivonen> asmodai: that's Fennec Native
  277. # [11:00] <hsivonen> asmodai: please file bugs about stuff that sucks
  278. # [11:00] <asmodai> heycam: I gave up on that, I got way too many projects.
  279. # [11:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: Will do
  280. # [11:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: It definitely performs faster though
  281. # [11:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: Than previous versions
  282. # [11:01] <heycam> I with my Galaxy S2 didn't find a huge performance difference
  283. # [11:01] <asmodai> heycam: on my Galaxy Tab 10.1 it was at least
  284. # [11:01] <asmodai> Didn't test on my S2
  285. # [11:01] <heycam> and there definitely are many more broken things for me in Native UI vs the old XUL UI
  286. # [11:01] <heycam> but! I have started to file or CC myself to bugs, so that's better than nothing :)
  287. # [11:02] * heycam only updated last week once the intiial Sync implementation had landed
  288. # [11:02] <hsivonen> I still use Fennec XUL for sites that require login
  289. # [11:02] <heycam> hsivonen, forms don't work for you?
  290. # [11:02] <heycam> hsivonen, or is this HTTP auth?
  291. # [11:02] <hsivonen> heycam: credential sync and/or autofill don't work for me
  292. # [11:03] <heycam> hsivonen, oh. autofill works for me on the ~1 site that I view on the phone that needs a login.
  293. # [11:03] <hsivonen> I'm not planning on re-entering the credentials I've entered on desktop
  294. # [11:03] <asmodai> One thing that's ticking me off with some recent browsers is when I copy URLs it's not giving me the scheme
  295. # [11:04] <hsivonen> asmodai: yeah, that's annoying with Opera Mobile
  296. # [11:04] <hsivonen> in Fennec Native, I can't copy the URL at all, though :-)
  297. # [11:04] <heycam> asmodai, occasionally that happens with me in Firefox, but most of the time it does the right thing
  298. # [11:04] <hsivonen> asmodai: desktop Firefox has more and more advanced heuristics for this
  299. # [11:04] <heycam> hsivonen, currently nightlies having broken long tap makes them somewhat unusable for me :)
  300. # [11:05] <hsivonen> asmodai: but with desktop Firefox, you can avoid the problem by disabling the scheme hiding
  301. # [11:05] <asmodai> Sucks when I am making notes in Evernote and need to add complete URLs
  302. # [11:05] <hsivonen> I disabled the scheme hiding in Firefox on desktop
  303. # [11:05] <asmodai> Will check that. It's a bit annoying when you need to provide them to applications that do some sort of regexp matching on URLs and thus fail :)
  304. # [11:06] * heycam goes to cook dinner and watch Hewitt v Djokovic on the telly
  305. # [11:06] <hsivonen> that Opera Mobile prefills "www." is also terribly annoying when trying *paste into* Opera Mobile
  306. # [11:07] <asmodai> especially since www. is hardly common anymore
  307. # [11:07] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  308. # [11:08] <asmodai> so many sites droped it or use some other subdomain/host
  309. # [11:08] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  310. # [11:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: why aren't CR and CRLF treated as line breaks in title tooltips?
  311. # [11:16] <hsivonen> huh. how can the spec be wrong about CR and CRLF in tooltips and I don't find a bug report filed by me about it?
  312. # [11:16] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/title-attribute.html I have an existing test case
  313. # [11:16] * Joins: Areks|2 (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  314. # [11:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe you traveled back in time. in the future, you will file a bug about it
  315. # [11:18] <jgraham> I remember there was already some discussion about this
  316. # [11:19] <jgraham> tbh, I thought it was hsivonen who requested the current behviour
  317. # [11:19] <hsivonen> really?
  318. # [11:19] * Joins: thec13 (~thec@ip68-98-45-81.ph.ph.cox.net)
  319. # [11:19] <hsivonen> seems unlikely since I have a pending Firefox patch that expects CR and CRLF to be breaks
  320. # [11:21] <jgraham> Well I'm not saying I am right
  321. # [11:22] <jgraham> That's just what I thought
  322. # [11:24] * Joins: Rubennn (~Rubennn@apher.gewooniets.nl)
  323. # [11:28] * Quits: ciluu (~ciluu@2a01:270:dd00:b800::1) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  324. # [11:30] * Quits: thec13 (~thec@ip68-98-45-81.ph.ph.cox.net) (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
  325. # [11:32] * Joins: ciluu (~ciluu@2a01:270:dd00:b800::1)
  326. # [11:34] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  327. # [11:39] * Quits: ciluu (~ciluu@2a01:270:dd00:b800::1) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  328. # [11:55] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@nat/opera/x-gqnjxkorixsksaew)
  329. # [11:58] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  330. # [11:59] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082BBF8.dip.t-dialin.net)
  331. # [12:01] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  332. # [12:02] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326BB5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  333. # [12:02] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  334. # [12:05] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Quit: mishunov)
  335. # [12:15] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  336. # [12:18] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  337. # [12:24] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@203.215.136.248) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  338. # [12:29] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  339. # [12:31] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  340. # [12:32] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  341. # [12:42] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  342. # [12:45] * Quits: eightfold (~eightfold@c213-89-124-64.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  343. # [12:47] * Joins: danielfilho (~daniel@187.31.77.7)
  344. # [12:51] * Joins: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
  345. # [12:53] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Excess Flood)
  346. # [12:57] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com)
  347. # [12:58] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com)
  348. # [13:00] <oal> Does hsla colors support half percent values, like 20.5%, or only whole numbers?
  349. # [13:06] <Philip`> oal: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#hsla-color says some components are "a percentage" which presumably refers to http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#percentage-units which refers to http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#value-def-number which allows fractional values
  350. # [13:06] <Ms2ger> As usual, don't expect too much of CSS specs
  351. # [13:07] <zcorpan> short answer is "Yes"
  352. # [13:07] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  353. # [13:07] <jgraham> You are in a mazy of twisty specs, all alike
  354. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> You are likely to be eaten by glazou
  355. # [13:09] <zcorpan> glazou is the W3C grue?
  356. # [13:09] <Ms2ger> Just The WG's
  357. # [13:09] <zcorpan> ah
  358. # [13:13] * toyoshim is now known as toyoshiAw
  359. # [13:13] * toyoshiAw is now known as toyoshim
  360. # [13:14] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  361. # [13:19] <oal> Hmm, thanks, Philip`
  362. # [13:20] <oal> Just noticed google's closure library's regular expressions only match whole numbers
  363. # [13:21] <Philip`> Sounds like a bug
  364. # [13:24] * Philip` presumes it should be something kind of like hsla\(\s*[-+]?([0-9]*\.)?[0-9]+\s*,\s*[-+]?([0-9]*\.)?[0-9]+%\s*,\s*[-+]?([0-9]*\.)?[0-9]+%\s*,\s*[-+]?([0-9]*\.)?[0-9]+\s*\)
  365. # [13:25] <oal> http://code.google.com/p/closure-library/source/browse/trunk/closure/goog/color/alpha.js#367
  366. # [13:26] <Philip`> That's totally bogus since e.g. "0000" is a synactically valid number
  367. # [13:26] <bga> Philip` \d !
  368. # [13:26] <Philip`> plus they don't allow the right whitespace
  369. # [13:26] <bga> its shorter
  370. # [13:26] <Philip`> and they do allow "HSLA(...)" which I think they shouldn't
  371. # [13:27] <Philip`> Oh, actually I suppose it looks like they should
  372. # [13:28] * Quits: pocopina (~pocopina@li298-99.members.linode.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  373. # [13:29] * Joins: eightfold (~eightfold@c213-89-124-64.bredband.comhem.se)
  374. # [13:30] * Joins: FlorianX2 (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  375. # [13:30] * Quits: FlorianX2 (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  376. # [13:31] * Joins: pocopina (~pocopina@li298-99.members.linode.com)
  377. # [13:32] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p4FCF7AB3.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  378. # [13:33] * Joins: pocopina_ (u5310@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkpoftxpgiqekwhp)
  379. # [13:39] * Quits: pocopina (~pocopina@li298-99.members.linode.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  380. # [13:39] * pocopina_ is now known as pocopina
  381. # [13:54] <hsivonen> awesome. Gecko's HTML to plain text conversion treats <multicol> as a block break
  382. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, ever noticed http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/parser/htmlparser/src/nsHTMLTags.cpp#206 ? :)
  383. # [13:59] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  384. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: no. I'm looking at nsElementTable.cpp
  385. # [14:00] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  386. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> Heh, I never realized we had two nsHTMLElement classes
  387. # [14:03] <hsivonen> <listing>, OTOH, is something the spec knows about
  388. # [14:05] <hsivonen> curiously, <dd> and <dt> aren't blocks as far as old Gecko is concerned
  389. # [14:05] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Remote host closed the connection)
  390. # [14:06] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@server52836.uk2net.com)
  391. # [14:06] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  392. # [14:13] * Parts: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
  393. # [14:13] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  394. # [14:21] * Joins: izhak (1000@188.168.76.12)
  395. # [14:23] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  396. # [14:24] * Joins: Fr0z3n_ (~Frozen@2a01:e35:8a2f:2a60:21f:d0ff:fe53:75b2)
  397. # [14:24] * Joins: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
  398. # [14:24] * Parts: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
  399. # [14:24] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
  400. # [14:26] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  401. # [14:27] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@203.215.136.248)
  402. # [14:42] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  403. # [14:44] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  404. # [14:45] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  405. # [14:48] * Joins: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
  406. # [14:49] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  407. # [14:49] * mhausenblas_ is now known as mhausenblas
  408. # [14:54] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  409. # [15:00] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  410. # [15:04] * toyoshim is now known as toyoshiAw
  411. # [15:13] * Quits: mbatle (mbatle@pasanda.collabora.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  412. # [15:13] * Joins: mbatle (mbatle@pasanda.collabora.co.uk)
  413. # [15:19] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  414. # [15:20] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  415. # [15:21] * toyoshiAw is now known as toyoshim
  416. # [15:22] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  417. # [15:26] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  418. # [15:28] * Quits: Areks|2 (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  419. # [15:35] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  420. # [15:36] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  421. # [15:36] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  422. # [15:36] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com) (Excess Flood)
  423. # [15:40] * Quits: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120118081945])
  424. # [15:40] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com)
  425. # [15:41] * Joins: Akina_ (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
  426. # [15:41] * Quits: Akina_ (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr) (Client Quit)
  427. # [15:41] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  428. # [15:48] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  429. # [15:51] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  430. # [15:55] * Joins: tomasf_ (~tomasf@109.58.67.186.bredband.tre.se)
  431. # [15:56] * Joins: mrdoob (~mrdoob@131.9.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es)
  432. # [15:57] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  433. # [15:57] * tomasf_ is now known as tomasf
  434. # [16:02] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  435. # [16:04] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Quit: mishunov)
  436. # [16:05] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@server52836.uk2net.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  437. # [16:09] * Joins: Akina (~chatzilla@46.246.134.240.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
  438. # [16:11] * Joins: ksweeney (~Adium@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  439. # [16:17] * Joins: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143)
  440. # [16:21] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com)
  441. # [16:23] * Parts: ksweeney (~Adium@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  442. # [16:24] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  443. # [16:28] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  444. # [16:32] * Joins: gavinsmith (~gavinsmit@CPEe05fb90cc8fb-CM00222ddfdbcd.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  445. # [16:35] * danbri_ is now known as danbri
  446. # [16:36] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com) (Excess Flood)
  447. # [16:38] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com)
  448. # [16:41] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  449. # [16:41] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  450. # [16:41] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  451. # [16:44] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  452. # [16:44] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  453. # [16:45] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  454. # [16:45] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  455. # [16:52] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  456. # [16:52] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl)
  457. # [16:54] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  458. # [16:54] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl)
  459. # [16:56] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  460. # [17:00] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  461. # [17:00] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  462. # [17:09] * Joins: jcarbaugh (~jcarbaugh@216-15-37-167.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com)
  463. # [17:10] * Quits: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-hahstxyhszvxtsfs) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  464. # [17:11] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-oeghihrrviiasnyw)
  465. # [17:11] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  466. # [17:14] * Quits: izhak (1000@188.168.76.12) (Remote host closed the connection)
  467. # [17:17] * Quits: remysharp (u4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zfytypfjzpcnhtyt) (Excess Flood)
  468. # [17:17] * Joins: remysharp (u4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tpwjehwhgfqgxzqv)
  469. # [17:20] * Joins: izhak (1000@188.168.76.12)
  470. # [17:22] * Joins: tomasf_ (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  471. # [17:22] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  472. # [17:22] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  473. # [17:22] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  474. # [17:23] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  475. # [17:23] * Joins: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  476. # [17:24] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@109.58.67.186.bredband.tre.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  477. # [17:25] * tomasf_ is now known as tomasf
  478. # [17:27] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  479. # [17:28] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  480. # [17:29] * Quits: mrdoob (~mrdoob@131.9.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  481. # [17:37] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@203.215.136.248) (Remote host closed the connection)
  482. # [17:37] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@203.215.136.248)
  483. # [17:40] * Quits: wycats (u79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wyckasdjbotbjnzs) (Remote host closed the connection)
  484. # [17:40] * Quits: NimeshNeema (u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rfngkqwwdsgyzava) (Remote host closed the connection)
  485. # [17:40] * Quits: jeremyselier (u2513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fwvmjwslliclqzjq) (Remote host closed the connection)
  486. # [17:40] * Quits: pkondzior (u768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dxbiisjwaioskbhx) (Remote host closed the connection)
  487. # [17:40] * Quits: pocopina (u5310@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkpoftxpgiqekwhp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  488. # [17:40] * Quits: slightlyoff (u1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iegvikxzjcizkoxh) (Remote host closed the connection)
  489. # [17:40] * Quits: matjas (u2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wptkrmrkwqgktpgi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  490. # [17:40] * Quits: ryanseddon (u1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ekihpdnwplqrsydw) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  491. # [17:40] * Quits: Raynos (u3611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ekjxenecieddbfjn) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  492. # [17:40] * Quits: niftylettuce (u2733@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gdxcelnetqcnunpo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  493. # [17:40] * Quits: Scorchin (u1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jzxczcpuwjbnlrmf) (Remote host closed the connection)
  494. # [17:40] * Quits: akamike (u5089@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcukuewpkprvghoi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  495. # [17:40] * Quits: oal (u4126@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-crkmvjyjqnsbdkgj) (Remote host closed the connection)
  496. # [17:40] * Quits: beowulf (u116@pdpc/supporter/professional/beowulf) (Write error: Broken pipe)
  497. # [17:40] * Quits: remysharp (u4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tpwjehwhgfqgxzqv) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
  498. # [17:40] * Quits: kapowaz (u546@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxpteoxpgaiffnfe) (Remote host closed the connection)
  499. # [17:40] * Quits: timeless (u4015@firefox/developer/timeless) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  500. # [17:40] * Quits: longtheta (u4275@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qonstcvhocudrnhp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  501. # [17:40] * Quits: bobylito (u3929@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-opekdsmgmsoyhued) (Remote host closed the connection)
  502. # [17:40] * Quits: krijn (u2319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cnmnydunmjmkwuif) (Remote host closed the connection)
  503. # [17:40] * Quits: scheib (u4467@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wcmkzopsduchwlzk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  504. # [17:40] * Quits: hdv (u2376@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bxoydjbqvqreitnc) (Write error: Broken pipe)
  505. # [17:40] * Quits: Phae (u455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wvusffnapumkjdgp) (Write error: Broken pipe)
  506. # [17:41] * Quits: abarth (u5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xfbtgkxbicnybvut) (Remote host closed the connection)
  507. # [17:41] * Quits: benschwarz (u2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-autycjvzafqgvlxc) (Remote host closed the connection)
  508. # [17:41] * Quits: matijsb (u2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nxkjdmwdrzczjbah) (Remote host closed the connection)
  509. # [17:41] * Quits: eae (u4278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-woexxdonjomlnflf) (Remote host closed the connection)
  510. # [17:41] * Quits: dglazkov (u4270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rsmehlsltgjfntxi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  511. # [17:41] * Quits: arv (u4269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xoxkvbnkvxdsridt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  512. # [17:42] * Quits: boblet (u1921@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cgdwhbpswxovlwph) (Remote host closed the connection)
  513. # [17:42] * Joins: david_carlisle_ (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  514. # [17:42] * Joins: SamDutton (Adium@nat/google/x-cluviywosarxwarn)
  515. # [17:42] * Joins: Scorchin (u1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zyrnsxezfsebcviu)
  516. # [17:42] * Quits: Scorchin (u1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zyrnsxezfsebcviu) (Remote host closed the connection)
  517. # [17:43] * Joins: mrdoob (~mrdoob@15.23.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es)
  518. # [17:43] * Joins: krijn (u2319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gdgsuhuftkcdnrxe)
  519. # [17:43] <SamDutton> Just noticed minor typo in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#text-track-api
  520. # [17:43] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  521. # [17:43] * Quits: david_carlisle_ (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Client Quit)
  522. # [17:44] <SamDutton> var sfx = new Audio('sfx.wav');
  523. # [17:44] <SamDutton> var sounds = a.addTextTrack('metadata');
  524. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> SamDutton, file a bug
  525. # [17:44] * Joins: matijsb (u2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phxrpokhpmifjczf)
  526. # [17:45] <SamDutton> thanks — excuse my ignorance, but where is the right place to file a bug for typos in the spec?
  527. # [17:45] <jgraham> Little grey box at the botoom right of the spec
  528. # [17:45] <jgraham> *bottom
  529. # [17:46] <SamDutton> ah — got it — thanks
  530. # [17:47] * Joins: timeless (u4015@firefox/developer/timeless)
  531. # [17:48] * Joins: pkondzior (u768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ynrbrfkgeurnaogj)
  532. # [17:49] * Parts: SamDutton (Adium@nat/google/x-cluviywosarxwarn)
  533. # [17:51] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  534. # [17:51] * Joins: slightlyoff (u1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fukziiidrhnfzdix)
  535. # [17:51] * Joins: akamike (u5089@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rgftbtthscjnkyzp)
  536. # [17:51] * Joins: longtheta (u4275@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nqxawfrdzlondpfd)
  537. # [17:52] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
  538. # [17:52] * Joins: ryanseddon (u1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qejwbjjagndrdofe)
  539. # [17:52] * Joins: hdv (u2376@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thxkljfaadiaquui)
  540. # [17:53] * Joins: boblet (u1921@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sbduraxlfdxfasic)
  541. # [17:53] * Joins: beowulf (u116@pdpc/supporter/professional/beowulf)
  542. # [17:54] * Joins: jeremyselier (u2513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-crhsbdcrrekjhdpu)
  543. # [17:59] * Ms2ger wonders why someone would abbreviate "deterministic" as "determinist."
  544. # [17:59] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  545. # [18:01] * Joins: Raynos (u3611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tsnimrhuekqbbeap)
  546. # [18:01] <Philip`> Maybe "d11c" sounds a bit too rude
  547. # [18:03] * Joins: Phae (u455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ktmvbvztsdgwxeyd)
  548. # [18:03] * Joins: niftylettuce (u2733@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xvdsqdvcxuzefysd)
  549. # [18:04] * Joins: NimeshNeema (u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xumiwjcdrhsqohsk)
  550. # [18:07] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@203.215.136.248) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  551. # [18:08] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@nat/opera/x-gqnjxkorixsksaew) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  552. # [18:09] * Quits: xec (~xec@188.95.241.142) (Quit: so long)
  553. # [18:10] * Joins: scheib (u4467@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jembutgipfowfkkg)
  554. # [18:11] * Joins: bobylito (u3929@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-htobotvwudrgjrnu)
  555. # [18:14] * Joins: Scorchin (u1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfgkqjzodasgjxhx)
  556. # [18:14] * Quits: Taggnostr (~quassel@dyn57-362.yok.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  557. # [18:16] * Joins: kapowaz (u546@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwbsklssspsgmuzl)
  558. # [18:18] * Joins: Taggnostr (~quassel@dyn57-362.yok.fi)
  559. # [18:29] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  560. # [18:32] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  561. # [18:33] * Joins: remysharp (u4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ualxiwosyyfmxbrl)
  562. # [18:33] * Joins: abarth (u5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgeghiodshzfshve)
  563. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> This seems to render very incorrectly in WebKit relative to Gecko: data:text/html,<!doctype html><div style="width:200px;height:200px;background:gray;-webkit-transform:perspective(200px) rotateX(45deg);-moz-transform:perspective(200px) rotateX(45deg)">
  564. # [18:34] * AryehGregor isn't sure why
  565. # [18:34] * Quits: mrdoob (~mrdoob@15.23.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  566. # [18:36] * AryehGregor is quite sure Gecko is right here, not WebKit
  567. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Gecko is always right ;)
  568. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> I filed like half a dozen bugs against Gecko in its transforms alone in the last few weeks, so I think that's not quite the case. :)
  569. # [18:40] * Joins: mrdoob (~mrdoob@73.23.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es)
  570. # [18:45] * Quits: jeremyselier (u2513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-crhsbdcrrekjhdpu) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  571. # [18:45] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  572. # [18:46] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@host-92-12-148-102.as43234.net)
  573. # [18:48] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  574. # [18:49] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@mozilla.vlan402.asr1.cdg3.gblx.net)
  575. # [18:51] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:4595:bbe7:3a05:7310)
  576. # [18:52] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Client Quit)
  577. # [18:52] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  578. # [18:52] * Joins: jonatasnona (~jonatas@186.207.193.27)
  579. # [18:53] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-b7dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  580. # [18:53] * Quits: longtheta (u4275@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nqxawfrdzlondpfd) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  581. # [18:56] * Joins: dglazkov (u4270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xuuekrwwavuhwbpq)
  582. # [18:57] * Joins: wycats (u79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-urwapdsjuakyqvmb)
  583. # [18:57] * Joins: oal (u4126@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcpgnudvfefbglmo)
  584. # [18:58] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  585. # [19:00] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@mozilla.vlan402.asr1.cdg3.gblx.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  586. # [19:05] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@mozilla.vlan402.asr1.cdg3.gblx.net)
  587. # [19:11] * Quits: manu-db (~msporny@digitalbazaar.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.1.16/20110929071143])
  588. # [19:12] * Joins: manu-db (~msporny@digitalbazaar.com)
  589. # [19:14] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  590. # [19:14] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  591. # [19:14] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  592. # [19:14] * Quits: jonatasnona (~jonatas@186.207.193.27) (Quit: Saindo)
  593. # [19:19] * Quits: Neocortex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  594. # [19:21] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-keqkyrwjvaevxjig)
  595. # [19:22] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@216.38.130.164)
  596. # [19:25] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1)
  597. # [19:25] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  598. # [19:27] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  599. # [19:27] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  600. # [19:40] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Ik ga weg)
  601. # [19:42] * Joins: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-jdgjtkvdcwdjagmd)
  602. # [19:45] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  603. # [19:47] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-89-186f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  604. # [19:49] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  605. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> The lack of rebase in hg means I have to make sure to pull before committing to avoid pointless merge commits.
  606. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> Whereas in git, I can commit, then if there were other commits, rebase after pulling.
  607. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> Tiresome.
  608. # [19:50] * Quits: gavinsmith (~gavinsmit@CPEe05fb90cc8fb-CM00222ddfdbcd.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  609. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> hg wants you to not commit.
  610. # [19:50] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr)
  611. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> It wants you to use a whole separate patch-management system instead of just having them be the same.
  612. # [19:50] * AryehGregor grumbles
  613. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> (of course, I can always use hg rebase, I guess, but it's eaten my data before, so I'd prefer not)
  614. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> (rebase in git is safe: you can always easily recover any commits that get overwritten)
  615. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> (in fact, pretty much everything in git is safe except git gc, barring bugs)
  616. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> (which I've admittedly run into, but at least it's not by design, and upgrading fixed it)
  617. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> (. . . fortunately, without much data loss, since I had clones)
  618. # [19:56] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  619. # [19:57] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  620. # [19:59] <bga> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/streams/StreamProcessing.html
  621. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: there is a rebase extension for hg
  622. # [19:59] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, IIRC, it ate my data when I rebased and changed my mind.
  623. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> I have used it and it seems to pretty well work
  624. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> oh shit
  625. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> damn
  626. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> I might be misremembering.
  627. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> hmm
  628. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> In git, if you rebase, the old commit still sticks around for a while.
  629. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> I see
  630. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> As long as you can find the commit id, you're fine.
  631. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> Which you usually can.
  632. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> IIRC, the hg rebase extension actually destroys the old commit.
  633. # [20:00] * AryehGregor double-checks
  634. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> I think it might yeah
  635. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> but the times I have tried it worked the way I wanted it to
  636. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> in that, I could rebase after committing to set things straight
  637. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> a
  638. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> When I used it, it sent me to vim to merge something or other, and I had no idea what it wanted me to do, so I did ":q!".
  639. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> and I could then push without multiple-head problem
  640. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> ah
  641. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> Apparently, it interpreted this as "resolve the conflict by discarding all changes" or something.
  642. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> And my work was permanently lost.
  643. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> oh geez
  644. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> yeah, that ain't good
  645. # [20:02] * AryehGregor might be misremembering, but thinks it was something like that
  646. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> it sounds not totally unlikely
  647. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> I have never had it prompt me to do a merge on a rebase but that could just be because I've never had any conflicts to deal with
  648. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> git treats commits as objects that are kept lying around and eventually garbage-collected if there are no references to them.
  649. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> I see
  650. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> hg treats them as permanent records of some kind, kept in an append-only database, or something like that. I think.
  651. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> So I guess it's not natural for hg to keep around no-longer-used commits.
  652. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> In git it's very natural; everything is an object identified by a hex id, and objects are never destroyed except by garbage collection, as a rule.
  653. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> Anyway, back to work.
  654. # [20:05] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-simgddyjgcwkvcqi)
  655. # [20:06] <dglazkov> I like useless hg commits. They're great reminders that we are humans and thus have imperfections.
  656. # [20:06] <dglazkov> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/rev/9c8f2d89a85e
  657. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> I just like for the commit history to remain purty
  658. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> without all kinds of unnecessary branches and merges
  659. # [20:08] <dglazkov> :)
  660. # [20:11] * Quits: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912])
  661. # [20:12] * AryehGregor also misses git add -i
  662. # [20:13] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  663. # [20:16] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@mozilla.vlan402.asr1.cdg3.gblx.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  664. # [20:20] * Quits: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  665. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> what does add -i do?
  666. # [20:21] <MikeSmith> btw, as much as you dudes hate XSLT, you probably don't want to know that all the git help pages are generated using some DocBook-to-groff XSLT code that I wrote
  667. # [20:22] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  668. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, hah, seriously?
  669. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> yup
  670. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> try a "vim /opt/local/share/man/man1/git-add.1.gz" or equivalent some time
  671. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> the hg man pages use the same code
  672. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> as do the man pages for many Debian utils
  673. # [20:23] <zewt> i vaguely remember using xslt for some college mess a decade ago
  674. # [20:23] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  675. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> e.g., the ones apt-get and friends
  676. # [20:23] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  677. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> xslt is a horror
  678. # [20:23] * Joins: matjas (u2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlkyihjlumfqhbxu)
  679. # [20:23] * Quits: matjas (u2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlkyihjlumfqhbxu) (Changing host)
  680. # [20:23] * Joins: matjas (u2247@unaffiliated/matjas)
  681. # [20:23] * Quits: matjas (u2247@unaffiliated/matjas) (Changing host)
  682. # [20:23] * Joins: matjas (u2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlkyihjlumfqhbxu)
  683. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> groff is a horror too
  684. # [20:24] <Philip`> Sounds like they're a good fit for Git
  685. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> touche
  686. # [20:25] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  687. # [20:25] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  688. # [20:26] * Quits: FlorianX (~Dimitri@p578F1EF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  689. # [20:26] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  690. # [20:26] <zewt> that's why i like svn--it's actually not a horror
  691. # [20:27] <zewt> that's pretty much what it takes to create something which isn't a horror: deploy a horror for a decade or so (cvs), then rewrite it from scratch with what you learned
  692. # [20:27] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  693. # [20:27] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  694. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> svn is worse than cvs
  695. # [20:28] <zewt> uh
  696. # [20:28] <zewt> no. heh
  697. # [20:28] <zewt> svn is better than cvs in every way except one (purging old data)
  698. # [20:28] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  699. # [20:28] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  700. # [20:28] <zewt> (which seems to be a result of them going "nobody could ever possibly want to do that!", which is nonsense, and designing a system which is incapable of it)
  701. # [20:29] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  702. # [20:29] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  703. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> if I could drop an atomic nuclear H-bomb on svn and completely obliterate it from the face of the earth forever, I would stop whatever I'm doing right now and do that instead
  704. # [20:29] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  705. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> but that's just me
  706. # [20:30] <zewt> i'd be happy to do that, to cvs :)
  707. # [20:30] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  708. # [20:30] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  709. # [20:32] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  710. # [20:32] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  711. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> I'd do that to svn, cvs, git and bzr
  712. # [20:33] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  713. # [20:34] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  714. # [20:34] * Joins: gavinc_ (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
  715. # [20:35] * Quits: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  716. # [20:35] * Joins: Neocortex (~niels@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  717. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> I think President Obomba or somebody already did a predator-drone surgical strike on bzr
  718. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> you mention of bzr is the first I remember hearing of it for a long time
  719. # [20:36] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  720. # [20:36] <Philip`> zewt: What's wrong with serialising your entire repository and passing it through svndumpfilter and making everybody throw out their working copies and check it out again?
  721. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, bugzilla uses it :/
  722. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks for one more data point about what makes bugzilla a suboptimal bug-tracking system!
  723. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Hah
  724. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> and I thought my expectations could be lowered no further
  725. # [20:39] * Quits: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  726. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Well, do you have better alternatives?
  727. # [20:40] * Quits: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  728. # [20:40] * Joins: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical)
  729. # [20:41] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@adsl-178-78-99-119.karoo.kcom.com)
  730. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> no
  731. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> all open-source bug-tracking systems suck hard pretty much equally
  732. # [20:46] <MikeSmith> when I worked at Openwave formerly phone.com formerly software.com we there had a bug-tracking system that some engineers had developed in-house and that was absolutely brilliant
  733. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> I tried to convince some product-management weenies to make it into an actual product that the company could sell
  734. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> but they were not interested
  735. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> because they only cared about stuff that had potential to bring in gazillions of dollars
  736. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> ... and they hired you? ;)
  737. # [20:48] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  738. # [20:49] * Joins: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-ztwjhdaungyrdsxj)
  739. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> I was working on an e-mail server product than and the CEO then actually said stuff like "e-mail is a zero-billion dollar market" as a justification for not investing in that product
  740. # [20:50] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  741. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: they hired my originally just as a technical writer to work on docs
  742. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> so I was pretty much like, say, a lamp
  743. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> or a lampshade
  744. # [20:50] <Ms2ger> Linux, Apa... Doesn't make sense, does it?
  745. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> whatever random piece of furniture
  746. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> Oh
  747. # [20:51] * AryehGregor cannot get -webkit-perspective to work for some reason, grr.
  748. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Indeed, this demo doesn't work for me in Chrome 17 dev: http://www.webkit.org/blog-files/3d-transforms/perspective-by-example.html
  749. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Can anyone reproduce?
  750. # [20:51] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  751. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Hmm: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=54702
  752. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> It seems like Safari and Chrome treat transforms differently.
  753. # [20:54] * Joins: wesbos (~wesbos@24.52.240.143)
  754. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Well, I can run Safari in my Windows VM just like IE, I guess . . .
  755. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: jackass CEO would visit our dev office sometimes and walk into the break room and randomly quiz us with questions like, What are the top three strategic priorities of our company? (Which I responded to by saying, "Make money?" and he said "NO!" and I said "OK, reduce costs?" and again he said NO and then told us what the priorities really were and none of us had any clue what he was describing despite hearing sounds coming from h
  756. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> mouth.)
  757. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: that demo works for me on OSX
  758. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, in Chrome or Safari?
  759. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> Chrome
  760. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> 17.0.963.12 dev
  761. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> which is a little out of date
  762. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Huh.
  763. # [20:56] * AryehGregor tests in Chrome on Windows
  764. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> lemme try latest Canary
  765. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> could be some regression
  766. # [20:56] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-qqukaivuowovrpra)
  767. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Doesn't work for me in Chrome 18.something on Windows . . . maybe it's dependent on GPU support or something crazy like that?
  768. # [20:58] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  769. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> Nothing that Chrome does is crazy
  770. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> by definition
  771. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> it can only do good
  772. # [20:59] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  773. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> anyway, seems to work fine for me also in current Canary
  774. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> 18 whatever
  775. # [20:59] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl)
  776. # [20:59] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@host-92-12-148-102.as43234.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  777. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> as long as I understand what the demo is supposed to do
  778. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> which understanding is limited to, I move my mouse over the purty things and they move
  779. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> Sliding the slider should do something.
  780. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> Doesn't do anything for me in my Windows VM either.
  781. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> Hmmmm.
  782. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> (in Safari 5 or Chrome dev)
  783. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> I suspect this has to do with GPU support.
  784. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Since my VM has no 3D acceleration, and my Linux driver may or may not be good enough.
  785. # [21:01] * AryehGregor tries on his laptop, which has Linux with a different video card/driver
  786. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Doesn't work there either.
  787. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Kind of hard for me to test the features if they don't work.
  788. # [21:02] <MikeSmith> fwiw, sliding the slider does do something. But The behavior above 1000 on that slider seems pretty pointless since it looks all pretty much the same to me
  789. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Most of the 3D transforms themselves seem to work, though . . .
  790. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's expected.
  791. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> I think.
  792. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Right. 1000px is quite far away already, and getting further away will make no big difference. The distortion is related to one over the distance, with a perspective of infinity being a normal-looking webpage.
  793. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I'm annoyed.
  794. # [21:04] * AryehGregor tries on a non-virtual Windows machine
  795. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, thanks for helping out!
  796. # [21:04] <jamesr_> AryehGregor, on chrome, if GPU stuff doesn't seem right look at about:gpu
  797. # [21:05] <jamesr_> it'll tell you which features can/cannot be enabled
  798. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, thanks!
  799. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> 3D CSS: Unavailable. Hardware acceleration unavailable
  800. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> NVIDIA cards with nouveau drivers in Linux are crash-prone.: 94103
  801. # [21:06] <jamesr_> yup
  802. # [21:06] <jamesr_> welcome to linux
  803. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, is there no software rendering fallback for 3D CSS?
  804. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> It seems to work in Firefox.
  805. # [21:06] <jamesr_> where the drivers are crashy and the user doesn't matter
  806. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> (presumably in software)
  807. # [21:06] <jamesr_> i'd actually think firefox is just using the driver
  808. # [21:06] <jamesr_> we don't have s/w fallback rendering for 3D css on linux
  809. # [21:07] * Philip` didn't think Nouveau worked well enough for any kind of 3D at all
  810. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I enabled the scary experimental Gallium3D stuff, IIRC.
  811. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> Also, seems like mesa for Intel is *also* crash-prone, yay!
  812. # [21:08] <jamesr_> the only drivers that seem reasonable on linux are the very recent binary blob ones, based on the reports we've received
  813. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Matches my experience gaming.
  814. # [21:08] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  815. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> NVIDIA binary works okay, everything else is garbage.
  816. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> From about:support in Firefox: "GPU Accelerated Windows 0"
  817. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> But it still supports 3D CSS.
  818. # [21:09] <jamesr_> what does 0 mean?
  819. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> None
  820. # [21:10] <Philip`> It's the typical representation of the number zero
  821. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> It's a count
  822. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, according to http://blog.mozilla.com/joe/2010/11/10/how-to-tell-if-youre-using-hardware-acceleration/, it seems it means "no GPU acceleration".
  823. # [21:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: i thought the issue of newlines in title="" was already handled
  824. # [21:13] * Quits: Hixie (~ianh@trivini.no) (Quit: brb reloading config)
  825. # [21:13] * Joins: Hixie (~ianh@trivini.no)
  826. # [21:14] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.127.125) (Quit: nn)
  827. # [21:14] * Philip` hasn't experienced many serious compatibility problems with 3D game development on Linux, except for non-Gallium R300 drivers breaking when using shaders, and one version of binary NVIDIA drivers crashing any multithreaded application
  828. # [21:14] <Philip`> and a few behavioural bugs that got fixed after reporting them
  829. # [21:15] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  830. # [21:15] <Philip`> but I'd not be surprised if doing anything slightly more complex (like using GLSL) hit loads more bugs
  831. # [21:18] <Hixie> anyone know what's up with irc.w3.org?
  832. # [21:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: working for me
  833. # [21:19] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-156-245.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  834. # [21:19] <Hixie> i get "Unable to connect server irc.w3.org port 6665 [Connection timed out]" from norway
  835. # [21:20] <MikeSmith> but I have today seen reports from people saying they are not able to get to W3C servers
  836. # [21:20] <MikeSmith> hmm
  837. # [21:20] <Hixie> k, i'll just leave it for now then
  838. # [21:20] <MikeSmith> yeah
  839. # [21:20] <MikeSmith> some routing problems for sure
  840. # [21:25] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-94.pools.spcsdns.net)
  841. # [21:27] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@66-87-0-185.pools.spcsdns.net)
  842. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> So of course my wife's Windows laptop has outdated graphics drivers, so browsers don't want to use GPU acceleration on it either.
  843. # [21:29] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-94.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  844. # [21:29] * tantek-ipod is now known as tantek
  845. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> And I don't have an admin password. Sigh.
  846. # [21:39] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@host-92-12-148-102.as43234.net)
  847. # [21:40] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  848. # [21:42] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-0-185.pools.spcsdns.net) (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi)
  849. # [21:42] * Joins: longtheta (u4275@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lkjpowwmewxgwpei)
  850. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Argh, tons of the 3D transform spec isn't well-defined.
  851. # [21:50] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@60.234.54.74)
  852. # [21:50] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@2620:101:8003:200:8c49:856f:11df:f815)
  853. # [21:52] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-116-53.dynamic.hinet.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  854. # [21:56] * AryehGregor wonders if he can take over and rewrite the transform specs
  855. # [21:57] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-119-192.dynamic.hinet.net)
  856. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> jacobolu_: Argh, you're not only reading the /TR draft, you're reading an *old* /TR draft! There have been four revisions since then. >_<
  857. # [21:58] * Joins: gkellogg (~gregg@c-98-248-150-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  858. # [21:58] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  859. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: DO IT
  860. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> DO IT NOW
  861. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> How does that work? Do we have to have some WG discussion or something?
  862. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> I mean, it has a bunch of editors already.
  863. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The chairs decide officially, but in practice it's an "anyone object?" vote.
  864. # [22:00] <jamesr_> AryehGregor, who?
  865. # [22:00] <jamesr_> are editors, that is?
  866. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Submit the request now, so we can vote on it on wednesday.
  867. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, a bunch of people from Apple.
  868. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'll have to run it past my Mozilla overlords first.
  869. # [22:00] <jamesr_> names?
  870. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: You can just look, you know.
  871. # [22:01] * jamesr_ hunts
  872. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#transform-origin-property
  873. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/
  874. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, is there some way to get the version history?
  875. # [22:01] <jamesr_> sloooooooooooooow
  876. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, but it's painful.
  877. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Let me guess, it requires a CVS checkout?
  878. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/
  879. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Or a CVS checkout, yes.
  880. # [22:02] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  881. # [22:04] <jamesr_> AryehGregor, i don't think any of those people are actively working on this
  882. # [22:04] <jamesr_> the spec, anyway
  883. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> It doesn't look like it.
  884. # [22:04] <jamesr_> except for possible chris marrin, but in the last discussion of plane intersection he said that he doesn't think css should define the actual rendering
  885. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> No, it's another one of the specs that Apple dropped on the ground after they got it far enough in the WG that they can claim they're implementing a standard.
  886. # [22:05] <dglazkov> ouch.
  887. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> Same thing happened with Transitions and Animations, which is why dbaron and sylvain are editors now.
  888. # [22:11] <dbaron> AryehGregor, you may want to see the thread following http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011OctDec/0195.html for the different transforms specs
  889. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, is there anything special I have to know if I'm a CSS spec editor?
  890. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> dbaron, hmm, thanks.
  891. # [22:12] * AryehGregor looks
  892. # [22:12] <jamesr_> AryehGregor, well there's the nozzle
  893. # [22:12] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@host-92-12-148-102.as43234.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  894. # [22:12] <jamesr_> but otherwise it's like anything else
  895. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Read some of the things at the bottom of http://wiki.csswg.org/spec
  896. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> But otherwise, we can fill you in as necessary.
  897. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> And then turn that into documentation for the future.
  898. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> On that note, I should write a quick page about calc() and percentages.
  899. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> dbaron, FWIW, based on what I've seen, it makes sense to me to advance 2D as it stands and then make a new unified spec with 3D that will progress more slowly.
  900. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> +1
  901. # [22:14] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
  902. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> 2D Transforms can almost go to PR as-is: it has two interoperable implementations of virtually everything in my testing.
  903. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Except CSSMatrix.
  904. # [22:14] <jamesr_> TabAtkins, also FYI the w3c does not publish standards
  905. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> And there are a couple of things I didn't test.
  906. # [22:15] <jamesr_> it produces recommendations. orgs like ECMA and ISO produce standards
  907. # [22:15] <jamesr_> (in the context of that obsolescence notice thread with the grazy glenn)
  908. # [22:15] <jgraham> man I thought I missed a perfectly good VCS flamewar and then you went and mentioned specs still in CVS, so I still get to have a good laugh at others' misery. Thanks!
  909. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> You're welcome.
  910. # [22:15] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-llpxmnuwenmduwwj)
  911. # [22:15] <jamesr_> i don't plan to jump into that mess but The More You Know
  912. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, also, if I took over editing, do you think they'd let me use hg?
  913. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: I honestly don't give a fuck. The correct answer is "we care about the web, not whatever industry you're referring to".
  914. # [22:16] <jgraham> I think W3C now claims that it does make standards
  915. # [22:16] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Unles the CSS WG is more fucked than I realised, the rules are "(s)he who does the work makes the rules"
  916. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: We... prefer to keep things together. That said, last week we talked about switching to Hg. I think dbaron wrote a guide for it, so hell, try it out.
  917. # [22:17] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I have heard several times that you are switching to hg
  918. # [22:17] <jgraham> From pliniss at least
  919. # [22:17] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
  920. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Except last week it was more than one person saying so.
  921. # [22:18] <jgraham> But seriously if you are expecting people to use CVS to edit your specs... well I think it wouldn't be a positive thing
  922. # [22:18] <jgraham> We generally want *more* ediors
  923. # [22:18] <jamesr_> requestanimationframe uses hg. it's fine
  924. # [22:18] <jgraham> jamesr_: Not CSSWG
  925. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, so I think Aryeh should go ahead and use it.
  926. # [22:19] <jamesr_> jgraham, i know, but the w3 setup is fairly sane
  927. # [22:19] <jgraham> Well sort of
  928. # [22:19] <jgraham> I am sort of considering suggesting that we move testsuite development to github so that we could have a semi-functional review system. But I fear I would be tilting at windmills
  929. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> No, do so, please.
  930. # [22:20] <jgraham> The problem with having a totally kickass internal code review setup is that everything else looks lame
  931. # [22:20] <jgraham> And teh fact that we have essentially nothing for testsuites is super lame
  932. # [22:20] <dglazkov> jgraham: why not adopt WebKit's review system? It's open source.
  933. # [22:21] * dglazkov doesn't in fact volunteer :P
  934. # [22:21] <jgraham> dglazkov: I guess without knowing that it is tied to svn and doesn't meet my requeirements for a usable system
  935. # [22:22] <jgraham> The first is a showstopper, the second just means that I would whine a lot
  936. # [22:22] <dglazkov> jgraham: it works both with git and svn, and the SCM parts are abstracted out, so it should be easy to write hg support.
  937. # [22:22] <dglazkov> and webkit-patch is freakishly nice.
  938. # [22:22] <jgraham> dglazkov: Pointer?
  939. # [22:23] * Quits: Fr0z3n_ (~Frozen@2a01:e35:8a2f:2a60:21f:d0ff:fe53:75b2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  940. # [22:23] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.89.249)
  941. # [22:23] <dbaron> TabAtkins, http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/hg isn't at all finished
  942. # [22:23] <jgraham> Anyway moving to github would be like 0 effort if people would agree to it
  943. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Ah, there it is. Could you link that from /spec?
  944. # [22:25] <dglazkov> jgraham: here's an example: https://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=123585&action=review
  945. # [22:25] <jgraham> And the code review system there isn't perfect but it has basically the right idea (a code review is a series of commits that you would like to apply. You kep adding commits until you have something that is r+ Then you merge your commits into the main codebase. Github uses multiple repositories, you can also use multiple branches)
  946. # [22:25] <jgraham> (there === github)
  947. # [22:27] <jgraham> (I think gerrit also has this model but... java)
  948. # [22:27] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-168-79.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  949. # [22:31] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  950. # [22:32] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-uxhtpbzhslsmpgyc)
  951. # [22:32] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-keqkyrwjvaevxjig) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  952. # [22:33] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-ufakmpvgzspopdax)
  953. # [22:36] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@2620:101:8003:200:8c49:856f:11df:f815) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  954. # [22:36] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  955. # [22:42] * Quits: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-oeghihrrviiasnyw) (*.net *.split)
  956. # [22:42] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@3239059-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (*.net *.split)
  957. # [22:43] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@3239059-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  958. # [22:43] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-fasepctysmadeupo)
  959. # [22:51] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Ik ga weg)
  960. # [22:53] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-149-102-172.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  961. # [22:55] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@m6645-0145234122.pck.nerim.net)
  962. # [23:01] * Joins: rniwa_ (rniwa@nat/google/x-pfidvemeaulxyybo)
  963. # [23:01] * Quits: rniwa_ (rniwa@nat/google/x-pfidvemeaulxyybo) (Client Quit)
  964. # [23:04] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1C84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
  965. # [23:10] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  966. # [23:11] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  967. # [23:24] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@host-92-12-148-102.as43234.net)
  968. # [23:27] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  969. # [23:28] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  970. # [23:29] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@host-92-12-148-102.as43234.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  971. # [23:31] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  972. # [23:33] * Joins: eae (u4278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xvbklishqkyurnvb)
  973. # [23:34] <jacobolu_> TabAtkins: oh. that's where someone linked me, sorry. is there a better link for crossfade?
  974. # [23:34] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  975. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> jacobolus: First, always check http://dev.w3.org/csswg/ for CSS specs. In particular, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images
  976. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> cross-fade() has been punted to level 4 in recent drafts, but it was present in an improved form in the draft following the one you were looking at.
  977. # [23:38] <jacobolus> gotcha
  978. # [23:38] <jacobolus> I was going to say, I don't see it there at all :)
  979. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> But I'm still pretty sure your objection earlier was wrong.
  980. # [23:38] <jacobolus> it's mainly a question of wording/definitions
  981. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Right now I use plus(dissolve(A), dissolve(B))
  982. # [23:39] <jacobolus> what's dissolve?
  983. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> defined in p-d
  984. # [23:40] <jacobolus> oh, I see it
  985. # [23:40] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: yes, that's a correct formula then
  986. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> It should amount to the "linearly interpolate each pixel's color components".
  987. # [23:41] <jacobolus> the language in the spec before said something like over(dissolve(A, α), dissolve(B, 1-α))
  988. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  989. # [23:41] <jacobolus> but over is not the same as plus
  990. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  991. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> But over(dissolve(A,alpha), B) isn't right either.
  992. # [23:42] <jacobolus> it is if the two images are opaque
  993. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Yes, but I can't rely on that assumption.
  994. # [23:42] <jacobolus> it isn't if they're semitransparent :)
  995. # [23:42] <jacobolus> that's true
  996. # [23:42] * Joins: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com)
  997. # [23:42] <jacobolus> as I said, that's the only real use case I see for the spec
  998. # [23:43] <jacobolus> cross-fading between semitransparent images
  999. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> What specifically do you mean by "the spec" here?
  1000. # [23:43] <jacobolus> I mean, the `cross-fade` css property
  1001. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> The major use of cross-fade() is to allow 'transition' to work on background-image.
  1002. # [23:44] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1003. # [23:44] <jacobolus> that is, the only real use case that isn't already covered by just having variable opacity
  1004. # [23:44] <jacobolus> gotcha
  1005. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Rather, that's the reason I made it. It has other minor uses, of course.
  1006. # [23:45] <jacobolus> just layering two boxes works in most instances
  1007. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> We try to avoid making people add multiple boxes to achieve common effects. ^_^
  1008. # [23:48] <jacobolus> that's fair :)
  1009. # [23:58] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  1010. # [23:59] * longtheta is now known as crassvs
  1011. # Session Close: Tue Jan 24 00:00:00 2012

The end :)