/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-26 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  31. # [00:56] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi, we're experiencing an outage at once of our sponsors, causing NickServ/ChanServ and friends to have left as well as some server being unavailable. We're looking into the cause now. More updates by wallops, /mode yournick +w to see them!
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  55. # [02:19] * AryehGregor just got a message from an at job: Right or wrong? #whatwg [100125 13:52:46] <AryehGregor> I predict that in two years, normal people using new browsers won't need to have Flash installed.
  56. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> Arguably right, if one construes "need" narrowly enough.
  57. # [02:20] <AryehGregor> Random YouTube videos seem to work out-of-the-box in Chrome dev in incognito, so I'd say it's true.
  58. # [02:21] <Hixie> chrome dev comes with flash built in, iirc
  59. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> about:plugins says it's disabled.
  60. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> Only have Remoting Viewer, NaCl, and the PDF viewer.
  61. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> Also, right-clicking on the video says "About HTML5" in the menu.
  62. # [02:22] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  63. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> So it's HTML5 all right, and I got it without opting in (due to incognito).
  64. # [02:22] <Dashiva> Yeah, Youtube used to be pretty bad, but I don't recall seeing a flash-only video in quite a while
  65. # [02:23] <AryehGregor> Vimeo too.
  66. # [02:23] <Dashiva> Actually, I should say flash and/or h264-only
  67. # [02:23] <AryehGregor> (works with HTML5 out of the box)
  68. # [02:23] * AryehGregor made no claims about H.264-only
  69. # [02:23] <Hixie> nice
  70. # [02:24] <Dashiva> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.org/facebook.com
  71. # [02:24] <Dashiva> Seeing that 90% of the recent log is people checking facebook.com, I wonder...
  72. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> I've browsed with Flash disabled for a long time, and the only things I can remember seeing recently that didn't work were ads.
  73. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> And not even many of that.
  74. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> So: long live HTML5! Flash is no longer important!
  75. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Hurrah!
  76. # [02:25] * AryehGregor pats everyone in the room on the back
  77. # [02:26] <Hixie> hehe
  78. # [02:26] <Dashiva> Hey
  79. # [02:26] <Dashiva> Flash games are still flash games
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  82. # [02:31] <Hixie> at least on g+ some of the games are canvas-based
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  86. # [02:44] <divya> Dashiva: do you have the logs for downforeveryoneorjustme?
  87. # [02:44] <divya> or is it public? >_>
  88. # [02:46] <Hixie> it's on the page
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  110. # [03:46] <AryehGregor> Where's the giant warning box in the HTML spec saying not to use canvas to make a text editor?
  111. # [03:47] <AryehGregor> Ah, here.
  112. # [03:48] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#best-practices
  113. # [03:48] <Hixie> it's got a whole section, not just a box :-)
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  115. # [03:53] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but it's not in scary warning colors, so I didn't spot it when skimming through.
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  117. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> the spec needs a EULA
  118. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> "By using the technologies we make available in this specification, you agree to not make things that are bad for the Web."
  119. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> and if you break that agreement you get kicked off the Web
  120. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> for two weeks
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  123. # [04:29] <Hixie> MikeSmith: man, if we had the power to do that...
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  154. # [08:08] <jamesr> how do you make a path in SVG that isn't closed?
  155. # [08:08] <jamesr> i tried just ending on an L instead of a z but it's bitching at me Problem parsing d="M 272 202 L 274 202 L"
  156. # [08:09] <jamesr> oh wait, i think i just leave off the last command
  157. # [08:13] * jamesr feels dumb now
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  159. # [08:20] <jamesr> ok better SVG question. i have a path with a bunch of points. is there a way to say "stroke it such that the first point is blue, the last point is green, and everything in the middle is linearly interpolated between the two based on the point's distance along the path" ?
  160. # [08:21] <jamesr> i've tired specifying the paint server as a linearGradient, but that gradient seems to be evaluated in the viewboxes' space no matter what i do
  161. # [08:21] <jamesr> so i can make stuff on the left blue and stuff on the right green, but can't figure out how to make the color change as a function of progress along the path
  162. # [08:25] <jamesr> interbutts as of 2007 say SVG doesn't do that: https://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.svg/browse_thread/thread/6d557ad470cf9cbc/5ad0cf5b1a23188a
  163. # [08:25] <jamesr> :(
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  179. # [09:29] <remysharp> Trying to work out which browser has the bug: I create an event, set a custom property on it and dispatch it. Chrome carries the custom prop through, Firefox drops it. Does the spec define what the browser should do?
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  194. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno if you're around but I wanted to ask if there's a reason why for the V.nu site you aren't serving the static files from jetty
  195. # [10:03] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-112.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  196. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> I mean the style.css and script.js files
  197. # [10:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: this way, I have less need to track Jetty security updates and less need to figure out how to make Jetty serve static files when V.nu has its own main()
  198. # [10:04] <hsivonen> I've forgotten to update script.js, haven't I?
  199. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no no
  200. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> I haven't landed the new code yet so you don't need to update yet
  201. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> so I know how to make jetty serve static files
  202. # [10:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've considered reading style.css and script.js to RAM and serving them from the servlet, though. I just haven't gotten around to it
  203. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> I have the code working in my workspace
  204. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> OK
  205. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> that would be a better solution I guess
  206. # [10:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm most worried about Jetty's generic file serving serving other files accidentally
  207. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  208. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> well, the reason I'm looking into this is that for the w3c instance I would really like to have everything in one place
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  210. # [10:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm OK with having the code in the repo
  211. # [10:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not sure if I want it enabled on the V.nu instance without seeing the code
  212. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> yeah, sure, understood
  213. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> and I can put it under the w3c flag I think
  214. # [10:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok.
  215. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> all of it
  216. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> I'll get you a patch
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  218. # [10:09] <hsivonen> or more to the point, I don't want it enabled on V.nu without seeing the Jetty guts it calls
  219. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> yup
  220. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> understood
  221. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> but now I'm wondering if it's better just to pursue what you mentioned about reading style.css and script.js to RAM and serving them from the servlet
  222. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, is there a way I can detect within the code what path jetty is running under?
  223. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> so that I don't have to use absolute paths
  224. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> right now I'm just feeding it the path through a system property
  225. # [10:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't know. There might be a magic system property for it, but I don't see a dedicated JDK API call for it
  226. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> ok
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  228. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what code would I need to touch if I wanted to implement reading style.css and script.js to RAM and serving them from the servlet?
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  231. # [10:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nu.validator.servlet.VerifierServlet
  232. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> OK
  233. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> ah
  234. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: doGet?
  235. # [10:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah
  236. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> OK
  237. # [10:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you could read the files to RAM from the static initializer
  238. # [10:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's dirty, but there's already IO from static initializer in the app
  239. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> I see
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  241. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so the code is doing this already for serving /robots.txt right?
  242. # [10:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah
  243. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> could this be done for serving image files as well?
  244. # [10:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sure
  245. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, well, if you prefer I can write a patch that does it this way instead of using the jetty static-file serving stuff
  246. # [10:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that would be awesome
  247. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> will do then
  248. # [10:36] <hsivonen> thanks
  249. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: to be clear, we still need to files in the repo and the code reads them in from the filesystem, right?
  250. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> if so, my next question is, how do I get the path to the directory they're in?
  251. # [10:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'd read them from the file system to a byte[] from static {} and then serve them from RAM the way robots.txt is served from RAM
  252. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> yup, OK
  253. # [10:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. how are the local entities located...
  254. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  255. # [10:39] <hsivonen> oh. they come from within a JAR
  256. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> yup
  257. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> I could do the same for these I guess
  258. # [10:40] <hsivonen> so one option would be moving the files so that they get baked in a JAR
  259. # [10:40] <hsivonen> yeah
  260. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> I mean, just use that same mechnaism
  261. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> OK
  262. # [10:40] <hsivonen> makes sense
  263. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> yup
  264. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> OK
  265. # [10:40] <hsivonen> hmm. though a JAR *might* make the length of the file unknown
  266. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  267. # [10:41] <hsivonen> which will result in some reallocation and copying of byte[] if you can't allocate the right-sized byte[] in advance
  268. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  269. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> why is that not also a problem for the existing files that get JARed up?
  270. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  271. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> I see what you mean
  272. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> yeah
  273. # [10:42] <hsivonen> they don't get read into a file-length byte[]
  274. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> right
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  287. # [11:22] <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html ... he he, well played, Hixie :D
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  289. # [11:29] <asmodai> Who here was from the Opera team again (seems that anne's not around)?
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  295. # [11:40] <zcorpan> jgraham is here
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  301. # [11:51] * jgraham is indeed here
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  311. # [12:26] <cweiske> about the autocomplete proposal: why isn't there an openid, username and password token?
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  314. # [12:30] <asmodai> jgraham: Opera mobile, it's known that the previews of tabs sometimes keep showing wrong content?
  315. # [12:33] <jgraham> asmodai: Not known to me at least. Could you file a bug, please?
  316. # [12:34] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-ctwxlrvihanegqif)
  317. # [12:35] <asmodai> jgraham: going to try, internet is acting up at the moment
  318. # [12:36] <asmodai> major lag and packet loss due to some upstream router on the campus reaching CPU limits >_<
  319. # [12:38] <jgraham> https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/mobile/ if it helps
  320. # [12:40] <asmodai> jgraham: ANDMEX-5712
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  322. # [12:41] <asmodai> jgraham: Would a screenshot help? (assuming I can send such files to the address as well)
  323. # [12:43] <jgraham> asmodai: …maybe? I don't really do product QA so I don't know exactly what they use. I imagine a screenshot is not needed if it is 100% reproducable, but might be helpful if it isn't (to prove you had the problem :)
  324. # [12:44] <wilhelm> asmodai: Yes.
  325. # [12:44] <wilhelm> (Not that I work for Opera anymore. :)
  326. # [12:45] <jgraham> But at least you have some experience with product QA :)
  327. # [12:49] <asmodai> wilhelm: hehe, cool :)
  328. # [12:49] <asmodai> jgraham: Will check if I can show the previews and use the native screenshot button to snap it.
  329. # [12:50] * Quits: cweiske (~cweiske@pD954DBEC.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  330. # [12:51] <jgraham> asmodai: Thanks, this is really helpful!
  331. # [12:51] <asmodai> jgraham: np, so far opera mobile is my browser of choice on Android
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  335. # [12:53] <wilhelm> asmodai: Even with the Opera hat gone, I can agree with that. (c:
  336. # [12:54] <wilhelm> asmodai: For later reference: by adding a screenshot, you're proving that the bug actually exists. That may make your report float to the top.
  337. # [12:55] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  338. # [12:55] <jgraham> Things I was vaugely aware of, but just saw demoed: you can actually use the mobile browser on your desktop: http://www.opera.com/developer/tools/mobile/
  339. # [12:57] <jgraham> wilhelm: yes. Although you shouldn't take the same screenshot and post it to *every* *single* blog post whenever there's a new nightly build.
  340. # [13:00] <gsnedders> GlitchMr: But it still happens!
  341. # [13:00] <gsnedders> GlitchMr?
  342. # [13:00] <gsnedders> jgraham.
  343. # [13:00] <GlitchMr> Yeah
  344. # [13:00] <gsnedders> I can't type.
  345. # [13:00] <GlitchMr> wait.. lol.
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  351. # [13:14] <asmodai> wilhelm: Good to know
  352. # [13:14] <asmodai> wilhelm: When I'm home and actually near my tablet, I'll snap and upload it
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  363. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> karlcow: you walked right into that one man
  364. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> the reply from Roy on public-tracking
  365. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> or maybe you made him walk right into that one
  366. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> karlcow: were you intentionally trolling him?
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  379. # [14:41] <karlcow> MikeSmith: I rarely troll anyone, or if I troll it is because the person is a friend who will be able to understand the nature of my comment.
  380. # [14:42] <karlcow> for the answer of Roy, I do not understand why it went on that reply which is barely related to what we were discussing in the tracking protection group this morning.
  381. # [14:42] <karlcow> s/it went/he went/
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  383. # [14:43] <cweiske> about the autocomplete proposal: why isn't there an openid, username and password token?
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  388. # [14:51] <jgraham> cweiske: You asked that about 2.5 hours ago
  389. # [14:51] <jgraham> cweiske: I suggest asking on the list; the people driving that proposal aren't here
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  400. # [15:27] <cweiske> ok
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  408. # [15:43] <Ms2ger> Does IE use 1px for thin borders already?
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  425. # [16:51] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: Does WHATWG get involved with PAGs for W3C specs at all?
  426. # [16:52] * Parts: cweiske (~cweiske@pD954DBEC.dip.t-dialin.net) ("Verlassend")
  427. # [16:52] <scott_gonzalez> I've got an attorney that's willing to help investigate the Apple patents for Touch Events, but the response from Rigo Wenning a bit abrupt and standoffish.
  428. # [16:52] <scott_gonzalez> I'm not sure if there's some other/better way for the attorney to provide help.
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  452. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> Is the user-select property specced anywhere these days?
  453. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> If CSSUI doesn't have it, probably not
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  455. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> Sad.
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  457. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> CSS? Yes
  458. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: sent you a patch for review, for the serve-stuff-from-RAM thing we talked about earlier
  459. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> I don't know what the best way is to read from a file into a byte array, but the way I did seems sane
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  463. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> I didn't do the JAR thing because I found that actually could use a relative path
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  465. # [18:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. I'll take a look tomorrow. gotta go now
  466. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> thanks
  467. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> no rush
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  520. # [19:02] <crankharder> ideas what "NOT_FOUND_ERR: DOM IDBDatabase Exception 3" might mean? I can't find any docs on it
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  554. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Huh . . . -webkit-perspective behaves weirdly.
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  556. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> It seems like its value for practical purposes is equal to the value of the last ancestor with -webkit-perspective not set to "none". So <div style="-webkit-perspective:100px">, <div style="-webkit-perspective:100px"><div style="-webkit-perspective:100px">, and <div style="-webkit-perspective:100px"><div style="-webkit-perspective:none"> are all equivalent.
  557. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> This seems very weird.
  558. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> In Gecko it's just the parent's value that's used.
  559. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> I'd have expected they accumulate, so it's like transform: perspective(100px) . . .
  560. # [20:05] * AryehGregor wonders what the use-case is
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  574. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Oh, awesome, WebKit's getBoundingClientRect() just doesn't match its rendering here, so it gets an unjustified pass.
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  576. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Sounds like webkit
  577. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> I found cases where that happens in Gecko too.
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  579. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718809
  580. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> Shh ;)
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  599. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> I wish I had a way to run reftests from JavaScript. :(
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  601. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Why does no one but Gecko seem to support writing SVG-in-data-URLs to canvas and then reading back the results?
  602. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Extremely sad.
  603. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Running reftests in arbitrary browsers is so painful as it stands.
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  606. # [20:52] * AryehGregor notes that all browsers would fail his autogenerated reftests anyway, because they all have slight errors in rounding
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  608. # [20:52] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Security, presumably
  609. # [20:53] <Philip`> (In particular the difficulty of being absolutely certain that it's secure)
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  611. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Philip`, browsers that support SVG-in-<img> don't run any script or load any resources from the network, so it's pretty hard for it to not be secure.
  612. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> I guess it could reveal prefs and such.
  613. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I wonder if it evades the Gecko mitigation of link-color examination?
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  615. # [20:54] * AryehGregor fidgets
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  617. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> They seem to have thought of that. Sad.
  618. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> (or, good)
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  626. # [21:08] <Hixie> wait, what?
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  628. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Wait, what what?
  629. # [21:08] <Hixie> being able to reference hidden="" content from aria attributes is controversial now?
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  631. # [21:08] <Hixie> wtf
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  635. # [21:09] <Hixie> i feel like i am in some sort of badly written comedy
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  637. # [21:11] <Hixie> sicking: dude your bug about hidden="" and aria-* is getting me in trouble
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  639. # [21:12] <Ms2ger> Hixie, would've been nice if you hadn't hijacked my obsolete specs thread, btw ;)
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  651. # [21:23] <sicking> Hixie: i won't have time to spend on that stuff unfortunately :(
  652. # [21:24] <sicking> Hixie: also, allowing aria-* to point to hidden stuff is the right thing to do, so i don't understand why it's trouble?
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  669. # [21:55] <heycam> jamesr_, there's no easy way to do that currently :(
  670. # [21:55] <heycam> jamesr_, (the gradients along the polyline)
  671. # [21:55] <heycam> jamesr_, the new gradient meshes we'll have should make it possible, though still not simple to write
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  689. # [22:26] * AryehGregor writes http://aryeh.name/tmp/css-test/contributors/aryehgregor/incoming/viewer.html as a crude makeshift reftest-checker, in about 20 minutes
  690. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Needs some refinement, I guess.
  691. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> But I'm not going to submit reftests if I can't easily check whether they pass in implementations . . .
  692. # [22:28] <gsnedders> Write a runner using WebDriver!
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  695. # [22:32] <Hixie> sicking: ditto on both counts
  696. # [22:32] <Hixie> sicking: like i said before you joined, i feel like i am in some sort of badly written comedy
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  701. # [22:42] <smaug____> is anne on vacation ?
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  714. # [22:55] <Hixie> smaug____: yes
  715. # [22:56] <jamesr_> heycam, looks like the closest i can get today is to build up the path in lots of little overlapping pieces (2-3 segments) and color them individually
  716. # [22:56] <jamesr_> to get something kinda close
  717. # [22:57] <heycam> jamesr_, yeah
  718. # [22:57] <heycam> jamesr_, btw did you see the mail about rAF
  719. # [22:57] <jamesr_> about last call?
  720. # [22:57] <heycam> jamesr_, yeah
  721. # [22:57] <jamesr_> yeah i saw it, haven't had time to look in detail
  722. # [22:57] <jamesr_> gotta remember what the LC reqs are
  723. # [22:57] * heycam has not been paying attention to the spec at all
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  725. # [22:57] <heycam> just that all the issues are closed, really
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  727. # [22:58] <jamesr_> well that's easy enough to accomplish :)
  728. # [22:58] <jamesr_> biggest problem with rAF spec-wise is the lack of a test suite, imo
  729. # [22:59] <heycam> yeah, technically that's not required unless you want to transition from CR to the next one up
  730. # [22:59] <heycam> but the earlier the better obviously
  731. # [22:59] <heycam> anyway if all the issues we had are actually closed, we can say go for it for LC
  732. # [22:59] <jamesr_> will have to check
  733. # [22:59] <heycam> I might fiddle with the IDL though first to take account of recent webidl changes
  734. # [22:59] <jamesr_> i think there are some issues of the form "think about doing BLAH"
  735. # [23:00] <heycam> ok
  736. # [23:00] <jamesr_> and they can probably be closed with either "thought about it, don't want to do it" or "let's think about it later"
  737. # [23:00] <heycam> yeah
  738. # [23:00] <heycam> it's probably fine to leave those called out in the spec, if you wanted to attract attention to them
  739. # [23:01] <jamesr_> as notes?
  740. # [23:01] <heycam> yeah
  741. # [23:01] <jamesr_> sg
  742. # [23:01] <jamesr_> i'll try to go through open issues and then reply to that email tomorrow
  743. # [23:02] <jamesr_> today is a mess for me
  744. # [23:02] <heycam> doubt there's a hurry
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  762. # Session Close: Fri Jan 27 00:00:03 2012

The end :)