/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 03 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:04] <jacobolus> does anyone know what the right way is to unpack a javascript float? i.e. to figure out the exact bits of the internal number?
  12. # [00:04] <jacobolus> *internal representation
  13. # [00:04] <gsnedders> You mean get at the actual repr of it?
  14. # [00:04] <jacobolus> right
  15. # [00:05] <gsnedders> Um, there's no built-in way to do so.
  16. # [00:05] <jacobolus> sure. I'm just wondering what the best arithmetic to do is that won't introduce rounding errors or w/e
  17. # [00:05] <gsnedders> You can probably achieve it through Typed Arrays, actually.
  18. # [00:05] <jacobolus> gsnedders: yeah, but that doesn't help me in old browsers :)
  19. # [00:05] <gsnedders> Then it's less easy :)
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  22. # [00:06] <jacobolus> gsnedders: and one thing I'm trying to do is test out the PRNGs behind Math.random(), just for my own edification
  23. # [00:07] <gsnedders> I guess you just need to calculate the needed exponent and mantissa yourself.
  24. # [00:08] <jacobolus> yeah. so in theory, if I have a number 0 < x < 1, repeatedly multiplying by 2 and sometimes subtracting 1 should avoid rounding problems, right?
  25. # [00:09] <gsnedders> I'm nowhere near awake enough to think in that level of detail :)
  26. # [00:09] <jacobolus> heh. boo
  27. # [00:10] <jacobolus> :)
  28. # [00:10] <gsnedders> Well, the exponent is such that you take log2, round-down.
  29. # [00:11] <gsnedders> IEEE754 means you need to deal with the exponent bias.
  30. # [00:11] <gsnedders> But then you should just be able to subtract Math.pow(2, exponent) from your value to get the mantissa, no?
  31. # [00:12] <jacobolus> that's what I would expect
  32. # [00:13] <jacobolus> but once I have the mantissa, that's still as a float. I should be able to pull out the bits w/ repeated [multiply by 2], [if > 1 then subtract 1] steps, right?
  33. # [00:13] <gsnedders> And both the exponent and mantissa can be expressed exactly (both are less than 2^53), and Math.pow(2, exponent) is guaranteed to have a representation possible.
  34. # [00:13] <gsnedders> jacobolus: Just x.toString(2)
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  36. # [00:14] <jacobolus> gsnedders: oh! didn't realize that one.
  37. # [00:15] <jacobolus> gsnedders: I can just use x.toString(2) in general then
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  40. # [00:16] <gsnedders> jacobolus: Doesn't get you the actual repr of the float, though
  41. # [00:16] <jacobolus> but it gives the exponent & mantissa
  42. # [00:17] <gsnedders> jacobolus: It shouldn't.
  43. # [00:17] <gsnedders> > (Math.pow(2, 51)+1.5).toString(2)
  44. # [00:17] <gsnedders> "1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001.1"
  45. # [00:17] <gsnedders> For example
  46. # [00:18] <jacobolus> that looks correct...?
  47. # [00:18] <gsnedders> It's not the exponent and mantissa, though
  48. # [00:18] <jacobolus> well, the exponent is however far the . is to the right
  49. # [00:19] <jacobolus> and the mantissa is the value if we remove the . and strip leading 0s
  50. # [00:19] <jacobolus> and if I read the ieee 754 spec I could figure out precisely how the bits of that are arranged
  51. # [00:19] <gsnedders> jacobolus: That's not going to be in IEEE754 double format, though
  52. # [00:20] <jacobolus> what do you mean?
  53. # [00:20] <gsnedders> (where the mantissa has an implicit leading 1, effectively making it normalized)
  54. # [00:20] <jacobolus> sure
  55. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Or am I being stupid and half-asleep?
  56. # [00:20] <gsnedders> (This seems quite plausible)
  57. # [00:20] <gsnedders> (Seeming I am, in fact, half asleep)
  58. # [00:20] <jacobolus> gsnedders: what I'm saying is I can deterministically figure out the representation from that, I think
  59. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Right.
  60. # [00:21] <jacobolus> but in any event, it's good enough for my purposes here
  61. # [00:21] <jacobolus> gsnedders: interestingly, v8's Math.random() seems to only do 32 random bits?
  62. # [00:21] <gsnedders> jacobolus: No idea.
  63. # [00:21] <jacobolus> safari as well
  64. # [00:22] <jacobolus> in theory they could do 53 random bits, right?
  65. # [00:22] <jacobolus> for a number in (0, 1)
  66. # [00:22] <gsnedders> (0, 1]
  67. # [00:23] <Philip`> [0, 1)
  68. # [00:23] <jacobolus> is it (0, 1]? I was under the impression that they'd never produce 1.
  69. # [00:23] <gsnedders> No, I'm just getting my brackets the wrong way around.
  70. # [00:23] <jacobolus> gotcha
  71. # [00:23] <gsnedders> What Philip` said.
  72. # [00:23] <Philip`> 0 <= x < 1, if you want the not incredibly confusing notation
  73. # [00:23] <jacobolus> :)
  74. # [00:24] <jacobolus> the notation is plenty readable to former math students :)
  75. # [00:24] <jacobolus> gsnedders: thanks for the toString(2) lead. I for whatever reason thought that only worked for integers
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  78. # [00:27] <Philip`> I believe at least SpiderMonkey uses an RNG equivalent to lrand48(), which returns 31 bits, but then it gets two random ints and shifts and adds to get a random double
  79. # [00:27] * abarth is now known as abarth3
  80. # [00:28] <Philip`> I think one difficulty with Math.random() is that if you change it to a higher quality RNG, you lose on critical-for-marketing benchmarks
  81. # [00:28] <jacobolus> boo
  82. # [00:28] <jacobolus> prngs like MWC are pretty fast though
  83. # [00:29] <zewt_> integrate randomness quality into the benchmarks? heh
  84. # [00:29] * zewt_ is now known as zewt
  85. # [00:29] <jacobolus> Philip`: but it's hard to imagine a case where actual calls to random() is the bottleneck. adding just a couple noop function calls seem to dramatically slow things down relative to calling random() bare
  86. # [00:30] <zewt> as long as you're not doing anything stupid (like touching /dev/random)
  87. # [00:30] <jacobolus> i.e. hard to imagine such cases in real code
  88. # [00:30] <Philip`> jacobolus: Never underestimate the ability of benchmark writers to write benchmarks whose bottleneck is nowhere like where they intended :-)
  89. # [00:30] <jacobolus> heh. fair enough
  90. # [00:31] <Philip`> (especially since the bottlenecks change after the benchmarks are written)
  91. # [00:31] <jacobolus> I guess what I mean is, doing `for (var i = 0, r = Math.random; i < 1e6; i++) { r(); };` seems like a relatively rare sort of occurrence
  92. # [00:32] <jacobolus> if there's a benchmark along those lines, maybe it should be scrapped :)
  93. # [00:32] <zewt> jacobolus: of course, a smart JIT would notice that Math.random() has no side-effects, and elide the whole damn thing :P
  94. # [00:32] <gsnedders> A lot of Peacekeeper comes down to little more than that.
  95. # [00:33] <zewt> c/c++ compilers definitely do that sort of thing
  96. # [00:34] <zewt> (no clue if JS engines do)
  97. # [00:34] <zewt> (guess it'd be easy enough to find out)
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  99. # [00:35] <gsnedders> I *think* V8 and SM should, but in V8's case it needs to be detected as hot-code to get the optimization done!
  100. # [00:35] <zewt> chrome production doesn't, anyway
  101. # [00:35] <zewt> well, not when pasting into the console
  102. # [00:35] <zewt> gsnedders: of course, that's another problem with benchmarking JS :P
  103. # [00:35] <zewt> was: re: stating the obvious
  104. # [00:36] <gsnedders> zewt: It's optimization for hot-code should, at least. The problem is you have to run the non-optimized code first. :P
  105. # [00:36] <gsnedders> zewt: Well, it's a problem with any JITing language.
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  107. # [00:36] <zewt> sticking it in a function and calling it a few times and it doesn't change, at least
  108. # [00:36] <zewt> gsnedders: well, I'm blaming the naive benchmarks, not JS
  109. # [00:36] <gsnedders> Try a few hundred :P
  110. # [00:36] <jacobolus> gsnedders: is commented peacekeeper code easily accessible someplace?
  111. # [00:36] <gsnedders> jacobolus: No.
  112. # [00:36] <jacobolus> their site is kind of a mess
  113. # [00:37] <zewt> shouldn't have to run an expensive function a few hundred times to get it to optimize :P not when calling the function takes over a second
  114. # [00:37] <zewt> (increased to 1e7 so I could see the runtime clearly)
  115. # [00:37] <gsnedders> jacobolus: The test frame just loads the same URL over and over again, and changes based on cookies :P
  116. # [00:38] <jacobolus> how can people take a 21st century benchmark seriously that doesn't clearly show & explain what it's doing?
  117. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Marketing.
  118. # [00:39] <Philip`> The perceived quality of a benchmark is entirely dependent on how pretty its graphs are
  119. # [00:39] <Philip`> (That's how I judge them, at least)
  120. # [00:39] <jacobolus> Philip`: well are there any good benchmarks with shitty graphs that need help?
  121. # [00:40] <jacobolus> I bet with a couple days effort it would be possible to make some damn pretty graphs
  122. # [00:40] <jacobolus> use canvas or SVG, and if they aren't supported, just "sorry, your browser is so obsolete we can't even show you results"
  123. # [00:41] <gsnedders> Kraken for example tests CSE quite heavily.
  124. # [00:43] <gsnedders> (for var i = 0; i < 1000; i++) { foo[i] = Math.abs(foo[i] >> 1); bar[i] = foo[i] >> 1; }
  125. # [00:43] * Philip` knows too little to know of any good benchmarks
  126. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Is what you need to be quick on to be good on Kraken.
  127. # [00:44] <jacobolus> gsnedders: "CSE"?
  128. # [00:44] <gsnedders> jacobolus: common subexpression elimination
  129. # [00:45] <jacobolus> ah, I see
  130. # [00:45] <gsnedders> Also you need to be able to tell Math.abs is loop-invariant
  131. # [00:45] <jacobolus> gsnedders: with the idea there being that foo[i] >> 1 can't be eliminated because foo[i] changes after the first time?
  132. # [00:46] <gsnedders> jacobolus: Gah! No, switch the two statements in the block around.
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  134. # [00:46] <zewt> understanding const functions is a pretty fundamental optimization anyway, i'd expect
  135. # [00:46] <gsnedders> (which means you have to be able to tell that Math.abs is the built-in pure one, and that foo[i] and bar[i] are data properties for all i)
  136. # [00:47] <gsnedders> (because if they are accessor properties for any i then they could have side-effects and mutate Math.abs)
  137. # [00:47] <jacobolus> sure
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  139. # [00:47] <zewt> i'd expect engines to optimize for functions like that not being mutated, and have an exception path if anything ever does ("fuck, throw everything jitted away and give up because someone did something horrible")
  140. # [00:49] <gsnedders> Also if any are {valueOf:function(){return 1;}} because obv. you can do whatever in that function
  141. # [00:49] <jacobolus> are there any "how fast can the jit do when we throw horrible stuff" tests? those would be fun to write
  142. # [00:49] <zewt> and if someone creates benchmarks for performance when people do horrible things that break optimizations, they get shot in the head
  143. # [00:49] <gsnedders> zewt: Ah, but the point is you don't want the branch for the exception path in the hot code.
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  145. # [00:49] <gsnedders> Oh, you mean just throwing out all generated code if something mutates such a thing?
  146. # [00:49] <zewt> gsnedders: the branch would happen on assignment, not on access
  147. # [00:50] <zewt> (putting aside how to do *that* efficiently)
  148. # [00:50] <zewt> right
  149. # [00:50] <gsnedders> zewt: That could be fun with OSR.
  150. # [00:50] <zewt> with who?
  151. # [00:50] <gsnedders> on-stack replacement
  152. # [00:51] <gsnedders> Imagine you have generated code that assumes a built-in is a built-in, and then you change the built-in.
  153. # [00:51] <zewt> right
  154. # [00:51] <gsnedders> Everything higher up on the stack has to cope with this change.
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  156. # [00:51] <zewt> i'd think that would be an important assumption to be able to make
  157. # [00:51] <zewt> and cope with if someone is a jerk and violates it
  158. # [00:51] <gsnedders> So throwing away code isn't obviously always simple.
  159. # [00:51] <zewt> but not optimize for
  160. # [00:51] <zewt> heh, i wouldn't expect anything related to JIT to be simple :)
  161. # [00:52] <zewt> but yeah, it's definitely a tough problem
  162. # [00:52] <zewt> i'd expect the wins to be pretty significant, though
  163. # [00:52] <gsnedders> I mean, something like that example at first glance appears to be quite easy to optimize, until you start finding edge-cases that make optimization hard.
  164. # [00:53] <gsnedders> zewt: Eh, mostly only on benchmarks, though
  165. # [00:53] <gsnedders> Anyhow, time for me to vanish.
  166. # [00:53] <zewt> gsnedders: i don't know about that; it should allow general sets of constant-value folding
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  168. # [00:54] <zewt> granted, many of which you can do by hand, but that's exactly what you shouldn't have to do with a good optimizer
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  170. # [00:54] <zewt> heh, I think some C optimizers will optimize x = 0; for(int i = 0; i < n; ++i) x += i; to x = n*(n+1)/2
  171. # [00:55] <zewt> (which, to be sure, is an optimization only relevant to benchmarks)
  172. # [00:56] * abarth3 is now known as abarth
  173. # [01:01] <Philip`> (I imagine it could be argued that those kinds of optimisations are actually somewhat useful, even though a human could perform the same transformation trivially, because dumb code will be generated via macros or templates and it's nice if the compiler can recognise the special cases instead of forcing the programmer to abandon their nice abstractions and optimise those cases by hand)
  174. # [01:01] <zewt> also, those optimizations tend to (though don't always) mirror more useful optimizations
  175. # [01:02] <zewt> eg. having enough information in a C compiler to notice common patterns (as opposed to, say, a dumb peephole match for a summation) is obviously a good thing
  176. # [01:02] <zewt> (no idea what level the above optimization is actually done at)
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  261. # Session Close: Fri Feb 03 05:33:58 2012
  262. #
  263. # Session Start: Fri Feb 03 05:33:58 2012
  264. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  266. # [05:49] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  267. # [05:49] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  268. # [05:49] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  269. # [05:49] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  312. # [09:07] <zcorpan> annevk: wb
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  330. # [10:06] <matjas> where in the spec does it say <summary> may not be omitted if <details> is used?
  331. # [10:12] <zcorpan> Content model:
  332. # [10:12] <zcorpan> One summary element followed by flow content.
  333. # [10:12] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#the-details-element
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  337. # [10:17] <matjas> thanks
  338. # [10:17] * matjas files validator.nu bug
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  352. # [10:42] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, I believe we killed gopher
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  355. # [10:52] * Ms2ger loves https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723661
  356. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> Especially how it was filed yesterday
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  373. # [11:43] <matjas> MikeSmith: that was quick; thanks!
  374. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> no problem man
  375. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> th
  376. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> thanks for taking time to report it
  377. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> as is often the case I'm fixing regressions I introduced myself
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  419. # [13:11] <annevk> snow
  420. # [13:12] <annevk> pretty crazy
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  425. # [13:23] <TabAtkins_> I'm glad I just now bought some gloves and a scarf, for Paris. It's below freezing here in London, and colder in France.
  426. # [13:24] <TabAtkins_> Does anyone know what 'color' is used for in SVG?
  427. # [13:24] <annevk> text?
  428. # [13:24] <annevk> and presumably for the currentColor value
  429. # [13:24] <TabAtkins_> Oh, it's solely so you can use currentColor
  430. # [13:25] <TabAtkins_> No, text uses fill/stroke like everything else.
  431. # [13:25] <TabAtkins_> The spec actually calls out that currentColor is the sole use for 'color'.
  432. # [13:25] <annevk> thanks zcorpan
  433. # [13:25] <annevk> and SVG introduced currentColor... weird
  434. # [13:26] <annevk> (CSS only camelcase value?)
  435. # [13:26] <annevk> +'
  436. # [13:26] <TabAtkins_> Yes, I'm confused about this as well.
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  438. # [13:27] <TabAtkins_> Maybe it did more in some earlier version?
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  440. # [13:31] <annevk> did you go through http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/ ?
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  442. # [13:31] <annevk> hmm that says also it's just for currentColor
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  448. # [13:44] <annevk> how does this change attribute proposal address table editing?
  449. # [13:44] <annevk> I thought list items was a solved problem
  450. # [13:45] <annevk> HTML even gives advice about it iirc
  451. # [13:45] <annevk> oh well, hopefully someone else cares more than I do
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  469. # [14:17] <Velmont> annevk: No, I never did any real XHR work, only CORS. :]
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  475. # [14:23] <TabAtkins_> annevk: I figured it out. currentColor lets SVG use 'color' as a very limited form of CSS variables.
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  479. # [14:24] <annevk> well yeah
  480. # [14:24] <annevk> was that the only reason it was added?
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  482. # [14:25] <TabAtkins_> Looks like it, yeah. 'color' has literally no effect on anything, anywhere in SVG.
  483. # [14:25] <annevk> it allows defining 'border' in terms of CSS, but that's outside SVG and not really that big of a benefit
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  486. # [14:30] <TabAtkins_> I didn't think that was obvious, btw. In CSS it doesn't really serve as a variable, since 'color' has *other* effects. It's a more limited theming device in CSS.
  487. # [14:30] <TabAtkins_> But in SVG, 'color' is fully meaningless, so it can be used solely as a vehicle to transmit colors down the DOM for use in descendants.
  488. # [14:30] <TabAtkins_> s/colors/a color/
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  490. # [14:34] <annevk> well it's used by <foreignObject> children at least
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  493. # [14:40] <Velmont> Trying to find any decision/answer about IndexedDB keypath and "." to seperate objects, anyone know anything about it?
  494. # [14:41] <Velmont> It's very possible I could get data from a third party that has a["my.value"] = thing, and I'd want to have a keypath that accesses my.value like that, not the property value on a my object.
  495. # [14:41] <Velmont> So either "my\.value" escaping, or similar stuff. --
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  497. # [14:48] <jgraham> Velmont: Wait 'till sicking is around and ambush him
  498. # [14:48] <Velmont> But I'll be on the plane for FOSDEM soon.
  499. # [14:48] <Velmont> Ah, anyone going to FOSDEM?
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  511. # [15:08] <izhak> Guys, is html5 parser specification finished and ready for implementation?
  512. # [15:10] <annevk> it's been implemented in all browsers more or less
  513. # [15:11] <annevk> so it's pretty stable I'd say :)
  514. # [15:11] <annevk> then again, it might change when we add new features
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  518. # [15:14] <annevk> inbox <800 teehee
  519. # [15:14] <annevk> still about 400 to go to be back to normal
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  521. # [15:22] <asmodai> shite
  522. # [15:23] <asmodai> FF 10 really causing a ton of TDRs with my Nvidia driver >_<
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  528. # [15:35] <bga> http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/equation.html?locale=default
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  532. # [15:40] <zewt> bronislav + pritchard = lots o' mail
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  565. # [17:26] <annevk> hmm
  566. # [17:26] <annevk> anyone seen robbert?
  567. # [17:27] <annevk> train connections are kind of shitty due to snow :/
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  576. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> . . . you know that I never even realized that was a 'font' shorthand property?
  577. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> I actually find it hard to believe.
  578. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Why do I feel like I've never seen it in my life?
  579. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> Odd that font-size is required in the shorthand.
  580. # [18:06] <charlvn> one step closer to replacing mobile apps with mobile webapps? http://www.w3.org/TR/vibration/
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  585. # [18:17] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  588. # [18:20] <charlvn> good evening dimitri
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  716. # [23:06] <pablof> [[ When content whose URL has the same origin as the iframe element's Document fails to load (e.g. due to a DNS error, network error, or if the server returned a 4xx or 5xx status code or equivalent), then the user agent must queue a task to fire a simple event named error at the element instead. ]]
  717. # [23:07] <pablof> what element does "[...] named error at the element instead." refer to? the iframe or the document that contains the iframe?
  718. # [23:07] <Ms2ger> iframe
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  721. # [23:07] <Ms2ger> A document isn't an element
  722. # [23:07] <pablof> :-)
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  724. # [23:09] <pablof> no browser implements that currently, right?
  725. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> Dunno
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  735. # [23:28] <jgraham> pablof: Write a testcase, submit it :)
  736. # [23:28] <jgraham> Also: hi :)
  737. # [23:29] <pablof> jgraham: hey
  738. # [23:29] <pablof> i
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  741. # [23:30] <pablof> i made a dumb testcase, but i was double checking to see if i wasn't totally incompetent :P
  742. # [23:30] <pablof> where are tests usually? now that i don't have you guys around i don't know where anything is :D
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  744. # [23:31] <jgraham> Well the W3C has a testsuite repo at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
  745. # [23:31] <jgraham> (and a similar one for webapps)
  746. # [23:32] <pablof> cool
  747. # [23:32] <jgraham> So if you make tests in testharness.js format (assuming they are javascript) you can submit them there and we all get to use them :)
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  749. # [23:38] * rniwa needs to figure out where to put tests for his undomanager
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The end :)