/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-06 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  88. # [08:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you sure we want DOMParser to parse noscript as markup?
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  92. # [09:06] <annevk> I think that's what happens for XMLHttpRequest too
  93. # [09:07] <zcorpan> oh
  94. # [09:07] <annevk> but maybe they should all use the same mode as innerHTML?
  95. # [09:07] <zcorpan> for some reason i thought xhr parsed with "scripting enabled" but without running scripts
  96. # [09:08] <zcorpan> if xhr is interoperable, then it seems fine
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  113. # [09:55] <annevk> instead of // historical maybe DOM4 should use // legacy
  114. # [09:55] <annevk> hmm
  115. # [09:56] <annevk> basically we need one word that means, existed once, no longer implemented and one word that means, still there, but do not use
  116. # [09:57] <jgraham> The word for the latter is "deprecated: "p
  117. # [09:57] <annevk> but deprecated is so misunderstood
  118. # [09:57] <annevk> hmm
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  121. # [09:59] <jgraham> The word, or the concept?
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  130. # [10:25] <mpt> I think that's the oldest topic I've ever seen in an IRC channel
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  151. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: congrats for Accept-Charset removal making it to a release finally.
  152. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> Did it? That's good to hear :)
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  158. # [11:11] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: Yahoo! still hasn't fixed Babelfish
  159. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I'm unsurprised
  160. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> Go Yahoo!
  161. # [11:21] <zcorpan> how to resolve conflicts in svn that works every time: remove working copy, do a new checkout
  162. # [11:22] <jgraham> For small values of "resolve"
  163. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> svn di > foo && patch -R <foo?
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  168. # [11:36] <hsivonen> aargh. how can I type "since" as "sense"? I wasn't even using voice recognition.
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  170. # [11:36] * hsivonen hangs head in shame
  171. # [11:38] <zcorpan> you could claim to use dvorak where e and i only have one key in between
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  177. # [11:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I did type it on dvorak, but the explation is still implausible
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  180. # [11:47] <michel_v> implausible indeed, there's a u in the middle :p
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  184. # [12:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: regarding noscript in DOMParser: It's consistent with XHR and it's logical, since neither DOMParser nor XHR runs scripts
  185. # [12:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: people who control the input and don't want noscript, should probably not put noscript in the input
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  190. # [12:05] <hsivonen> implementing features and fixing bugs interferes with my ability to track public-html
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  192. # [12:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: consistent with xhr is good
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  194. # [12:10] <hsivonen> so it looks like public-html is as full of a11y Revert Requests as ever :-(
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  196. # [12:19] <jgraham> Yeah, it turns out that public-html is the first against the wall when there's work to get done
  197. # [12:21] <hsivonen> What kind of product does Charles Pritchard work on?
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  214. # [12:47] <mhausenblas> hsivonen around?
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  216. # [12:49] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: yes. Thanks for editing Wikipedia.
  217. # [12:49] <mhausenblas> yw
  218. # [12:50] <mhausenblas> lemme know if there's something else to be fixed over there ;)
  219. # [12:52] <hsivonen> hmm. the second sentence still describes the old XHR instead of the new generic thing for loading URL-addressable resources
  220. # [12:53] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com)
  221. # [12:54] <hsivonen> curiously, Wikipedians don't seem to have a problem with using primary sources for fact citations when the primary sources are W3C specs
  222. # [12:55] * Joins: twisted` (~anonymous@p5DDBB562.dip.t-dialin.net)
  223. # [12:55] <mhausenblas> yup ;)
  224. # [12:55] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@94-226-67-71.access.telenet.be)
  225. # [12:56] <mhausenblas> now, happy to edit more there, but would need some concrete wording - just paste it here or vial mail to michael DOT hausenblas AT gmail DOT com ... ok, hsivonen?
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  228. # [12:59] <hsivonen> I'd say something like "XMLHttpRequest is a API for loading URL-addressable resources and for sending data to URL end points from scripts."
  229. # [13:02] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  230. # [13:05] <mhausenblas> ok, hsivonen - but where? :)
  231. # [13:05] <mhausenblas> replacing the first sentence?
  232. # [13:08] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: I meant the second, but I guess what covers part of the first one, too
  233. # [13:09] <mhausenblas> so, s/It is used to send HTTP or HTTPS requests directly to a web server and load the server response data directly back into the script./XMLHttpRequest is a API for loading URL-addressable resources and for sending data to URL end points from scripts
  234. # [13:09] <mhausenblas> ?
  235. # [13:09] <mhausenblas> hmm
  236. # [13:10] <mhausenblas> I think it better replaces the first sentence, but your call really ;)
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  240. # [13:20] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: hmm. maybe it replaces the first sentence if the second is the qualified by "It is most commonly used..." or something.
  241. # [13:25] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  242. # [13:29] <annevk> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/accept-charset/ is nice
  243. # [13:29] <annevk> I wish we killed the Accept header too when there was still a chance of doing that
  244. # [13:29] <annevk> i.e. that our predecessors killed it
  245. # [13:32] <hsivonen> annevk: I now wish Accept had been killed. Instead what really happened a decade ago was that I advocated bloating Accept. :-(
  246. # [13:33] <annevk> good point, I might have done the same
  247. # [13:35] <zcorpan> Accept: */* works for most requests, doesn't it?
  248. # [13:35] <annevk> yeah, that's what I'm advocating now
  249. # [13:36] <annevk> although our network guys claim it breaks some stuff
  250. # [13:36] <annevk> I haven't really followed up
  251. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk: what breaks? X-Philes blogs?
  252. # [13:36] <annevk> not sure
  253. # [13:36] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should make an HTML5 version of my master's thesis and zap conneg
  254. # [13:38] <annevk> hmm
  255. # [13:38] <annevk> more people added me on G+ than Twitter
  256. # [13:38] <annevk> seems suspicious
  257. # [13:40] <annevk> anyone here going to Prague this weekend btw?
  258. # [13:41] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-89-111f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
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  260. # [13:52] <Lachy> hsivonen, in what ways did you previously advocate bloating Accept?
  261. # [13:53] <annevk> I think I have suggested that application/mathml+xml needed to be added
  262. # [13:53] <annevk> somewhere
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  267. # [13:55] <Lachy> looks like they ended up adding that, along with 2 others http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/appendixb.html
  268. # [13:55] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  269. # [13:57] <annevk> I wonder if HTTP covers stuff like https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=613159#c14
  270. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: putting application/xhtml+xml in the Accept header
  271. # [13:57] <Lachy> oh
  272. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58040#c28
  273. # [14:01] <zcorpan> made sense with the landscape as it was then
  274. # [14:05] <annevk> ooh man
  275. # [14:05] <annevk> people knew back in 2000
  276. # [14:05] <annevk> comment 0
  277. # [14:05] <annevk> "Comment in the source code says that the Accept: */* header is done because MIME based content negotiation is dead."
  278. # [14:07] <hsivonen> other fun threads: http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.mathml/browse_thread/thread/f0d7442075946397/
  279. # [14:07] <hsivonen> http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.mathml/browse_thread/thread/ab83de837ff21576/
  280. # [14:07] <hsivonen> http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.mathml/browse_thread/thread/a2dd34dc398590f2/
  281. # [14:08] <hsivonen> annevk: still dead, with more bytes wasted. :-(
  282. # [14:11] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
  283. # [14:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: People are claiming that Chrome still send Accept-Charset
  284. # [14:15] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  285. # [14:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: whoa. indeed. Turns out that I tested something else that was charset-related in my Chrome window today but not *this* and thought I had tested this
  286. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> Fun stuff, webkit inventing proprietary stuff and filing a bug on Gecko to implement it without bothering to bring it up on spec lists
  287. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=403510
  288. # [14:25] <jgraham> Wow
  289. # [14:25] <TabAtkins_> son of a *bitch*
  290. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> Young dog?
  291. # [14:27] <jgraham> Oh, I thought that was TabAtkins_'s password
  292. # [14:27] <TabAtkins_> Nah, man, that's hunter42
  293. # [14:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks. I added a correction to the post. Makes the situation less newsworthy. :-(
  294. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> hunter2*
  295. # [14:28] <TabAtkins_> d'oh.
  296. # [14:28] <TabAtkins_> I ruined the joke.
  297. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> Sorry :)
  298. # [14:29] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@213.87.240.138)
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  301. # [14:32] <TabAtkins_> Aw man, and it's Arv that filed it. In three hours I'll bitch him out.
  302. # [14:33] <hsivonen> argh. my bogus article made it to hacker news already. :-(
  303. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: bogus article?
  304. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, hsivonen: http://www.jumis.com/software/developer.html lists some Charles Pritchard software
  305. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> annevk, any particular reason you dropped Abstract from the DOM4 ED? It seems somewhat useful
  306. # [14:38] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@524BA444.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  307. # [14:42] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  308. # [14:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the bogus article being http://hsivonen.iki.fi/accept-charset/
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  310. # [14:46] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  311. # [14:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so Charles Pritchard specializes in implementing the canvas API in contexts other than browser-native implementations?
  312. # [14:50] <hsivonen> I wonder what the motivating use cases are
  313. # [14:50] * Joins: jaredwsmith (~jaredwsmi@c-69-255-40-225.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  314. # [14:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm amused by this reply to a comment of yours: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3557299
  315. #
  316. # Session Start: Mon Feb 06 15:08:19 2012
  317. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  318. # [15:08] * Now talking in #whatwg
  319. # [15:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  320. # [15:08] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  321. # [15:09] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  322. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, seems like the CSSOM bug component should move from WebAppsWG to CSS
  323. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> (I can file a bug)
  324. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> OK
  325. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> yeah please
  326. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> And Fullscreen to webapps now we have consensus?
  327. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> if we actually do
  328. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> OH, hmm
  329. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> The Bugzilla product only has an a11y component, where should I file?
  330. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, ^
  331. # [15:18] <annevk> per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012JanMar/0542.html it will be added to the draft charter
  332. # [15:19] <annevk> but maybe we should wait until it is actually chartered
  333. # [15:20] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1CB7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
  334. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> wfm
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  342. # [15:26] <Ms2ger> annevk, is there anything besides document.{documentURI,URL} to test for concept-document-url?
  343. # [15:27] <annevk> I think window.location is a different URL
  344. # [15:27] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  345. # [15:27] <annevk> "current URL"
  346. # [15:27] <annevk> you could test xml:base stuff
  347. # [15:27] <annevk> maybe
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  350. # [15:29] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  351. # [15:32] <matjas> hsivonen: I couldn’t find a Chrome bug for Accept-Charset, so I created a simple test case (http://mathiasbynens.be/demo/accept-charset) and filed a ticket: http://crbug.com/112805
  352. # [15:33] <Ms2ger> Anybody around with IE?
  353. # [15:34] <annevk> I can fire it up
  354. # [15:34] <matjas> hsivonen: make that http://crbug.com/112804; I was 23 seconds too late to file it
  355. # [15:34] <Ms2ger> download link on livedom, if that works in IE
  356. # [15:35] <annevk> sorry
  357. # [15:36] <annevk> VMWare trial expired
  358. # [15:36] <annevk> have to figure out how to get license key first (if Opera has some bulk license or not)
  359. # [15:37] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
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  362. # [15:41] <Philip`> annevk: Can you use the free VMware Player?
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  365. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> Ta anyway
  366. # [15:42] <hsivonen> matjas: thanks
  367. # [15:43] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.168.203.147)
  368. # [15:43] <annevk> figured out how, will take some time :(
  369. # [15:45] <Ms2ger> People may be interested in www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/jv/pubs/ecoop11.pdf "The Eval that Men Do: A Large-scale Study of the Use of Eval in JavaScript Applications"
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  379. # [15:56] <annevk> http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/pczpz/this_guy_was_elected_president_of_finland/ haha
  380. # [15:57] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.168.203.147)
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  382. # [16:04] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the "haha" part?
  383. # [16:06] <Ms2ger> Fins
  384. # [16:06] <Ms2ger> ;)
  385. # [16:08] <annevk> hsivonen: just kind of funny that the president does that kind of thing
  386. # [16:08] <annevk> in jeans
  387. # [16:09] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  388. # [16:11] <krijnh> Somebody from #css: just has a power failure here, during your meeting. If somebody can mail me the missing parts, I'll add them
  389. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, ^
  390. # [16:12] <hsivonen> annevk: it means he is an elitist who has a house with a yard instead of living in a block of flats :-)
  391. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> Hah
  392. # [16:14] * jgraham doesn't really understand why flats are so popular in Scandanavia
  393. # [16:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: they are more energy-efficient and you don't need to take care of the snow yourself
  394. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> What he said
  395. # [16:15] <jgraham> Well they might be more environmentally friendly
  396. # [16:15] <jgraham> But actually living in them sucks
  397. # [16:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: how?
  398. # [16:16] <jgraham> No outdoor space. Horrible communal areas (satircases, etc).People on all sides -> high chance of noise. Typically communal facilities that have to be booked. Landlords.
  399. # [16:16] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  400. # [16:16] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  401. # [16:16] <TabAtkins_> krijnh: I'm on it.
  402. # [16:17] <TabAtkins_> krijnh: I'm not sure what the outage was, and I don't want to diff these myself.
  403. # [16:17] <TabAtkins_> s/what/when/
  404. # [16:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: you don't have a landlord if you own stock in the apartment building LLC
  405. # [16:19] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@189.38.131.49) (Quit: Leaving.)
  406. # [16:20] <jgraham> Right, that would be a bostadsrätt in Swedish. All the other points apply though.
  407. # [16:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't feel a need for non-shared yard. The staircase is clean enough.
  408. # [16:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, I'm not that into sauna, so I don't need to book sauna facilities, since I don't use them
  409. # [16:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: besides, many apartments have per-apartment saunas, but that's again energy-inefficient
  410. # [16:23] <jgraham> I was thinking of washing machines :) Of course it is possible to have your own but the default here is shared washing facilities
  411. # [16:23] <jgraham> And most people stick with the default it seems
  412. # [16:24] <timeless> smaug____: i'm not actively working on bugzilla. and lpsolit hasn't been a very welcoming person. i do not have the energy to deal with him or his cabal
  413. # [16:25] * karlcow loves shared washing machines!
  414. # [16:25] <jgraham> karlcow: That needs an explaination or a <sarcasm> sign for the hard of understanding
  415. # [16:26] <karlcow> not sarcasm.
  416. # [16:27] <karlcow> I do not own a washing machine for the last 10 years and I find that a lot better as a society in urban environment. We go usually to the laundry beside our place. 1 min walking. Winter or summer.
  417. # [16:28] <karlcow> When I was living in Japan, I didn't have a fridge because I was living very close from supermarket opened at convenient time. So the fridge was the supermarket. Not possible unfortunately where I am now.
  418. # [16:28] <karlcow> I ditched the car 12 years ago too aka sold it.
  419. # [16:28] <karlcow> and TV
  420. # [16:29] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  421. # [16:29] <hsivonen> karlcow: you always ate full packs of perishable groceries?
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  423. # [16:30] <jgraham> karlcow: Now you are turning into area man
  424. # [16:30] <karlcow> hsivonen: in Japan you can buy in small portion :) that is the key.
  425. # [16:30] <jgraham> karlcow: But the assertion that not having a washing machine was better for the environment is [citation needed]
  426. # [16:30] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  427. # [16:31] <jgraham> It isn't trivially obvious to me why comercial machines would be more efficient
  428. # [16:31] <jgraham> Unless it is the machine itself that you are thinking of
  429. # [16:32] <karlcow> plenty of individual washing machines used once or twice a week compared to a washing machine used a lot more by many people is definitely better for the environment.
  430. # [16:32] <jgraham> But I would have thought the machine lifetime was ~number of uses rather than ~ time
  431. # [16:32] <karlcow> yup the machine.
  432. # [16:32] <jgraham> karlcow: That is far from obvious
  433. # [16:33] <karlcow> jgraham: do you have used the same machine for 10 years
  434. # [16:34] <jgraham> karlcow: Well not right now since we just moved and got the machine that the old people had bought (I think it is like ~5 years old). But my parents have, for example.
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  436. # [16:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: in particular, DOM made those attributes non-nullable
  437. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  438. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> That's not an argument, though ;)
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  441. # [16:38] <annevk> not sure why browsers are so woefully inconsistent for DOMParser
  442. # [16:39] <annevk> e.g. why it's different from createDocument in Gecko for instance
  443. # [16:40] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  444. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> No idea
  445. # [16:52] <hsivonen> so does HTML+RDFa 1.1 really want to add href and src to all elements?
  446. # [16:52] <hsivonen> see http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-in-html/#extensions-to-the-html5-syntax
  447. # [16:52] <hsivonen> says All RDFa attributes and valid values (including CURIEs), as listed in Section 2.1: The RDFa Attributes, must be allowed and seen as conforming when used in an HTML4, HTML5 or XHTML5 document.
  448. # [16:53] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-core/#rdfa-attributes doesn't really define "RDFa attributes"
  449. # [16:53] <hsivonen> but points to an appendix "For a complete list of RDFa attribute names and syntax, see Attributes and Syntax."
  450. # [16:53] <timeless> awesome
  451. # [16:54] <hsivonen> the appendix being http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-core/#s_syntax
  452. # [16:54] <hsivonen> which lists href and src
  453. # [16:54] <hsivonen> I have trouble figuring out which kind of bad spec writing this is
  454. # [16:55] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  455. # [16:55] <hsivonen> oops. it's not an appendix
  456. # [16:55] <hsivonen> just a plain section
  457. # [16:56] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0c3818.bb.sky.com)
  458. # [16:57] <hsivonen> whoa. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-in-html/ contains a DTD
  459. # [16:57] <annevk> hahaha
  460. # [16:58] <hsivonen> a quick look suggests the DTD puts href on all elements but doesn't put src on all elements
  461. # [17:00] <manu1> hsivonen - I don't think we intended @src to go on all attributes, only @href.
  462. # [17:01] <manu1> not that people tend to use @href on all attributes... it may be used so little that we could deprecate it's usage if an RDFa 2.0 ever ends up being created (I have no intention of being a part of that)
  463. # [17:01] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  464. # [17:02] <manu1> hsivonen - somewhat related: Searching for Microformats, RDFa, and Microdata Usage in the Wild - http://manu.sporny.org/2012/structured-data-searching/
  465. # [17:02] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  466. # [17:04] <manu1> also, the latest Editor's draft moves the DTD out of the spec: http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/
  467. # [17:04] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  468. # [17:04] <manu1> if you have suggestions on how to improve any of those documents, we'd love to hear about it on public-rdfa-wg@w3.org
  469. # [17:05] <hsivonen> manu1: oops. I fell into the old trap of reading stuff under /TR/. :-( I should know better.
  470. # [17:05] <manu1> yep - we need a warning across all W3C non-REC TR docs... wonder when that'll happen.
  471. # [17:07] <hsivonen> manu1: is there an ED of RDFa Core, too?
  472. # [17:09] <manu1> the TR version is the latest for RDFa Core
  473. # [17:09] <manu1> we're in LC for that doc
  474. # [17:09] * Quits: xec_ (~xec@188.95.241.142) (Remote host closed the connection)
  475. # [17:10] <hsivonen> manu1: ok
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  478. # [17:14] <hsivonen> manu1: I filed a bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15913
  479. # [17:14] * manu1 looks.
  480. # [17:15] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  481. # [17:18] <manu1> Thanks for the bug report. I have a feeling that the RDFa WG is going to keep @href, @rel and @rev allowable on all attributes (it was a big debate during the RDFa 1.0 days and we had revisted the decision multiple times and kept allowing them on all attributes. You also can't do some forms of chaining w/o them, and because it would break backwards compatibility w/ XHTML, and if we have...
  482. # [17:18] <manu1> ...different rules for different host languages it's going to confuse authors). I think allowing @src on everything was a mistake, but we'll check to make sure that's the case.
  483. # [17:19] <manu1> ... and that's not to say that the HTML WG will come to the same conclusion, just giving you a heads up on what I predict will happen.
  484. # [17:20] <manu1> hsivonen, what would be more compelling, imho, is some sort of technical issue raised by the modification... Does adding @href to span's create some sort of nastiness in the DOM/parsers/etc.?
  485. # [17:22] <manu1> That said, with the current RDFa Lite 1.1 changes, it may be that the vast majority of markup doesn't end up using @rel and @rev... and the markup that does use @href may limit itself to <a> - another suggestion that you might put in there is to have us tell authors that they should strive to only use @href where it is typically found in "regular" HTML (even though I know that's not your...
  486. # [17:22] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  487. # [17:22] <manu1> ...ideal solution)
  488. # [17:23] <annevk> you keep saying attributes when you mean elements
  489. # [17:24] <annevk> fwiw ^^
  490. # [17:24] <manu1> yeah, sorry - I keep doing that :)
  491. # [17:24] <manu1> s/@href, @rel and @rev allowable on all attributes/@href, @rel and @rev allowable on all elements/ ... etc.
  492. # [17:25] <annevk> that sounds rather silly given it was vetoed by implementors time and again
  493. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> Does Opera still implement global href?
  494. # [17:26] <annevk> but who knows, maybe the crazy happens one day
  495. # [17:26] <annevk> Ms2ger: did we ever?
  496. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> Through CSS
  497. # [17:26] <annevk> I think we killed those
  498. # [17:26] <annevk> stopped working at some point
  499. # [17:27] <hsivonen> manu1: the argument is that <p href="http://example.org">Click?</p> looks like a link that can be clicked to follow but isn't
  500. # [17:27] <hsivonen> manu1: and <p src="http://example.org/foo"></p> looks like emdedding some content but isn't
  501. # [17:27] <manu1> hsivonen, yes - I understand the argument... but we've found that RDFa authors don't always want to create click-able links.
  502. # [17:27] <manu1> your second example shouldn't be allowed, btw
  503. # [17:28] <manu1> (and @href is more familiar to them than @resource)
  504. # [17:28] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  505. # [17:29] <manu1> annevk, re: "vetoed by implementors" - do you mean in HTML or in RDFa?
  506. # [17:29] <annevk> former
  507. # [17:29] * manu1 nods at annevk.
  508. # [17:30] <annevk> and if you want <p href> to mean something else than the proposed <p href> from XHTML 2.0...
  509. # [17:30] <manu1> hsivonen, like I said - it's not best practice, we don't suggest that people do it... but at times, they don't want a clickable link... and they typically put this stuff on <span> and <div>s
  510. # [17:30] <annevk> well that sounds like a world of confusion
  511. # [17:30] <manu1> XHTML 2.0-what?
  512. # [17:30] <annevk> and prevents extending HTML in such a way in the future
  513. # [17:31] <manu1> are there plans to extend HTML to allow @href on all elements?
  514. # [17:31] <hsivonen> manu1: don't you have @resource already for non-clickable stuff?
  515. # [17:31] <annevk> there's certainly demand, not so much plans at this point
  516. # [17:31] <annevk> and @about
  517. # [17:32] <manu1> hsivonen - we have @resource to overload @href if used on the same element... not necessarily for non-clickable stuff.
  518. # [17:32] <manu1> annevk - there are plans to add @about to HTML?
  519. # [17:32] <manu1> or rather, demand?
  520. # [17:33] <hsivonen> manu1: when you use both @href and @resource, can anyone except RDFa WG members remember what triples it produces?
  521. # [17:33] <manu1> If there is demand to add @href to HTML... is it being introduced in HTML+RDFa in an incompatible way to that demand, annevk?
  522. # [17:34] <manu1> hsivonen: The question is moot - do people understand how the DOM is built if elements are placed where they shouldn't be?
  523. # [17:34] <hsivonen> manu1: as for nastiness for DOM/parsers/etc., I expect someone will make the argument that <p href> should become a clickable link, since RDFa "allowed" it but it doesn't "work"
  524. # [17:34] <manu1> The solution in both cases is the same: You use a browser to check to see if the page "looks right"... you use an RDFa processor to see if the page produces the correct triples.
  525. # [17:34] * Quits: dirkpennings (~dirkpenni@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  526. # [17:34] <hsivonen> manu1: you guys are making the incomprehensible stuff conforming
  527. # [17:35] <manu1> That is, there are exceptions to all rules, especially when it comes to what authors intend and what ends up happening in the browser.
  528. # [17:35] <hsivonen> manu1: HTML makes markup that triggens the incomprehensible fixups non-conforming
  529. # [17:36] <manu1> hsivonen: If someone makes the argument that <p href> should become a clickable link, they will also need to convince everybody that the entire paragraph should have a bright blue underline (or some other visual cue to specify it is a clickable link) and at that point, their argument will be dismissed.
  530. # [17:36] <manu1> hsivonen: define "incomprehensible fixups"
  531. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> <table>Foo</table>, perhaps?
  532. # [17:37] <hsivonen> manu1: in the HTML case, stuff like the AAA
  533. # [17:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: did you define the origin of the Document?
  534. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> No
  535. # [17:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: that also needs to be covered I believe
  536. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> I guess it does
  537. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> I'll need prose for that, though, because I don't understand origin stuff :)
  538. # [17:39] <manu1> hsivonen, so what is "incomprehensible" in your opinion? Please don't say 'everything' that is not currently defined in HTML but is in RDFa because I can't work with that... :)
  539. # [17:40] <manu1> hsivonen - stuff like this: <table href="...">Foo</table> ?
  540. # [17:41] <manu1> or stuff like this: <span href="...">My homepage</span> ?
  541. # [17:41] <manu1> (if the second one is incomprehensible... why is it incomprehensible)?
  542. # [17:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: filed a bug for now
  543. # [17:42] <hsivonen> manu1: 'incomprehensible stuff includes <table><i><b><font><font><font><font></b></font></i></table>
  544. # [17:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: might figure out the answer later
  545. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  546. # [17:42] <manu1> I agree that the first one is incomprehensible, but how could anybody do that that doesn't cause the browser manufacturers to say: "Wow, that markup is really stupid, we're not going to support it."
  547. # [17:42] <annevk> maybe document-origin should be part of DOM too... hmm
  548. # [17:43] <hsivonen> manu1: also <span resource="http://example.com/a" src="http://example.com/b" about="http://example.com/c" property="http://example.com/d" src="http://example.com/e">
  549. # [17:43] <manu1> hsivonen: Ok, yes <table><i><b><font><font><font><font></b></font></i></table> is ridiculous - but how does that apply to @href everywhere... seems like an extreme off-base example to prove a point? Is <p href="..."> a better representation of your concern?
  550. # [17:44] <manu1> and is that concern making <p> a click-able link... or the ability to express that "this paragraph has a hyperlink pointing to X"?
  551. # [17:44] <hsivonen> manu1: <table><i><b><font><font><font><font></b></font></i></table> is non-conforming. You are making <p href> conforming.
  552. # [17:44] <manu1> or is the concern that @href may end up on <p> eventually and we're spec'ing it in a way in HTML+RDFa that makes it impossible to have HTML adopt @href in the future?
  553. # [17:45] <hsivonen> manu1: the concern is making stuff that doesn't do what it looks like conforming
  554. # [17:45] <manu1> hsivonen: Yes, but why is <p href> conforming such a terrible thing? (other than it's just bad practice)?
  555. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Because it doesn't work
  556. # [17:45] <hsivonen> manu1: another concern is that making stuff that the definers of HTML explicitly rejected conforming is going to give rise to annoying threads
  557. # [17:46] <hsivonen> manu1: I find it distressing that you don't seem to consider <p href> for RDFa purposes as an obviously bad idea
  558. # [17:46] <manu1> hsivonen: I don't think it's a good idea
  559. # [17:46] <manu1> hsivonen: but I don't think making it conforming is a bad idea either
  560. # [17:47] <hsivonen> manu1: do you believe all DOMs should be conforming?
  561. # [17:48] <manu1> hsivonen: I don't think it's necessary, no.
  562. # [17:48] <manu1> I agree that it would be nice... but authors stick all sorts of non-conforming stuff in their documents... is that the question you were asking?
  563. # [17:48] <manu1> (because your question could be interpreted a few different ways)
  564. # [17:49] <hsivonen> manu1: when authors stick crazy stuff in their documents, what should a validator say?
  565. # [17:49] <manu1> It should say: Hey, you've done something kinda crazy - you might want to do something else.
  566. # [17:49] <hsivonen> (note that I'm not contesting your processing model for <p href> in any way.)
  567. # [17:49] <manu1> (and give an example of an alternative)
  568. # [17:50] <hsivonen> manu1: should the definition of crazy be up to the validator developer or should spec try to define crazy?
  569. # [17:50] <manu1> If your argument is that a document conformance checker may want to kick out a warning, but not an error... then I think that'd be a fine thing to do for <p href>
  570. # [17:50] <manu1> I think it's very difficult for the spec to define what crazy is because there is a lot of crazy out there.
  571. # [17:50] <hsivonen> manu1: I'm saying I think a conformance checker should give an error for <p href>
  572. # [17:51] <hsivonen> lots of crazy out there hasn't stopped Hixie from being prescriptive in the HTML spec
  573. # [17:51] <manu1> I'm saying that I think a conformance checker should give a warning for <p href>... but not an error, because somebody may have a very good reason to do that.
  574. # [17:51] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  575. # [17:51] <hsivonen> manu1: do you have an example of a good reason?
  576. # [17:51] <manu1> For example... if you want to link each paragraph to the source of the document it came from, <p href> makes sense...
  577. # [17:52] <manu1> (for example - when referring to legislation in a government law or bill)
  578. # [17:52] <hsivonen> manu1: why not @resource?
  579. # [17:52] <manu1> Why not @href? :)
  580. # [17:52] <manu1> Not @resource because it's meant to override @href.
  581. # [17:52] <hsivonen> manu1: because @resource is understood not to be clickable
  582. # [17:53] <manu1> and then the argument becomes, why is <p resource> ok?
  583. # [17:53] <manu1> but <p href> is not.
  584. # [17:53] <manu1> hsivonen, it's not clickable in a browser-sense... but it is a hyperlink, none-the-less.
  585. # [17:53] <manu1> the same as @href.
  586. # [17:53] <hsivonen> It's OK (to the extent RDFa is "OK") because @resource has no clickability expectations but @href has
  587. # [17:53] <manu1> whether or not it is "click-able" is really a display issue.
  588. # [17:54] <hsivonen> manu1: that's a slippery slope towards someone asking for <p href> to become clickable
  589. # [17:54] <manu1> I think this really boils down to a philosophy on whether an HTML document is purely information... or if it is visual representation as well.
  590. # [17:54] <manu1> hsivonen: Yes, but if your concern is that we make <p href> clickable - I don't think anyone in their right mind would allow that to happen in a browser.
  591. # [17:55] <manu1> (and it's really the browser's prerogative)
  592. # [17:55] <manu1> (granted, at that point we have a huge argument on how to standardize the clickability of <p href>
  593. # [17:56] <manu1> but for now, I don't see anybody in their right mind saying that we need to change the visual display of <p href> to make sure that the user can click through to the @href that the <p> is pointing at)
  594. # [17:56] * Quits: radio23 (radio23@newelite.bshellz.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  595. # [17:57] <manu1> I agree that /somebody/ at some point in time is going to ask you to make <p href> clickable... but at that point, I think the vast majority of us are going to say: That's insane... and keep going on our merry way making the Web better.
  596. # [17:57] <hsivonen> manu1: I guess you've never seen anyone ask for browser UI for <blockquote cite>
  597. # [17:57] <manu1> My point is: People are going to ask for crazy stuff... and we don't have to tell them "Yes."
  598. # [17:57] * Ms2ger has
  599. # [17:57] <annevk> hsivonen: do you set responseXML.characterSet correctly?
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  601. # [17:58] <annevk> I wonder what the correct interface for that is
  602. # [17:58] <annevk> spec-wise
  603. # [17:58] <hsivonen> manu1: it would be awesome if RDFa WG didn't say "Yes" to putting stuff like this in specs ;-)
  604. # [17:58] <manu1> hsivonen: :)
  605. # [17:58] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't know.
  606. # [17:59] <hsivonen> annevk: that's the kind of thing where I would expect Gecko to do the right thing, but you need a test case to be sure
  607. # [17:59] <manu1> hsivonen - I do think you have a valid concern, but I don't think the concern is strong enough to warrant the removal of @href, @rel and @rev everywhere (for the purposes of RDFa)
  608. # [18:00] <manu1> hsivonen - in any case, I'll put this down as Last Call feedback from you, so we'll have to discuss it... I just don't expect that we'll disallow it completely... maybe ask conformance checkers to kick out a warning - could you live with that decision?
  609. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> hober, can you explain to me why there's any such thing as transform-style: flat? Isn't transform-style: preserve-3d what you'd expect?
  610. # [18:01] <hsivonen> manu1: I'd probably escalate to the fun HTML WG Decision Process
  611. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> I don't see the value in transform-style: flat at all . . . you can emulate it by just adding scaleZ(0) at the end of the transform list for the element, no?
  612. # [18:01] * manu1 cringes.
  613. # [18:01] <manu1> hsivonen - even in the case that conformance checkers kick out a warning?
  614. # [18:02] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  615. # [18:03] * manu1 has to run, drop any other thoughts in here and I'll get to them once I'm back. Thanks for the comments, hsivonen :)
  616. # [18:03] <manu1> (they're always appreciated)
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  619. # [18:04] <hsivonen> manu1: yes, even in the warning case
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  624. # [18:11] <annevk> yeah seems to work
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  628. # [18:14] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  629. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> 'Night
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  631. # [18:15] <annevk> should we add xhr.responseURL? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15417
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  633. # [18:17] <annevk> I thought Gecko had fixed responseXML for non well-formed XML?
  634. # [18:17] <annevk> still returns some bogus tree
  635. # [18:18] <annevk> should we align XHR with DOMParser?
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  639. # [18:22] <smaug____> annevk: last time I tried to make responseXML to not have that strange DOM tree, it broke some sites, IIRC
  640. # [18:24] <annevk> :/
  641. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> hg people: is there some way to get rid of my local commits in hg?
  642. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> I.e., I don't have commit access and can't commit my changes and just want them to go away so I don't have to merge them for the rest of eternity.
  643. # [18:32] <annevk> I haven't found it
  644. # [18:32] <smaug____> hg strip works
  645. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> Or is this another case where the answer is "you have to use mq if you want hg to behave that way, stop trying to pretend it's git"?
  646. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> Hmm, okay.
  647. # [18:32] <smaug____> it is reasonable powerful
  648. # [18:32] * AryehGregor will have to give in and learn mq anyway, probably
  649. # [18:32] <smaug____> so can do evil things if not used carefully, I think
  650. # [18:32] <annevk> ooh, extensions
  651. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> smaug____, right -- hg supports commands that are just as powerful as git, except without the clever idea of actually not destroying data, so in practice they're only usable by daredevils and masochists.
  652. # [18:33] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  654. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Oh, this seems to have saved a backup of some kind.
  655. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> That's kind of it.
  656. # [18:35] <smaug____> I use hg strip all the time. Works fine for me
  657. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Worked well enough for me, thanks.
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  820. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Is there an hg equivalent of git reset --mixed, i.e., "forget about all the adds/removes/mvs/etc. I scheduled but don't touch the working copy"?
  821. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> I'm trying to work around this: http://mercurial.selenic.com/bts/issue1686
  822. # [22:29] * AryehGregor gives up and does hg revert --all, then redoes the commit
  823. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> Or maybe I should just not use --git.
  824. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> Huh
  825. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> Oh, that just doesn't show moves/renames at all . . . ?
  826. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  827. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
  828. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> That's why we suggest --git :)
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  832. # [22:35] <Velmont> Hmm, anyone know when sicking will be here? Have IndexedDB-questions.
  833. # [22:36] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  834. # [22:36] <Velmont> Or anyone else that could answer it :]
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  836. # [22:38] <jgraham> Pretty sure no one apart from sicking understands indexdb
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  838. # [22:38] <jgraham> Make of that what you will :)
  839. # [22:38] <Velmont> jgraham: Well, I asked here and was told to wait for sicking :P
  840. # [22:38] <Velmont> --> Trying to find any decision/answer about IndexedDB keypath and "." to seperate objects, anyone know anything about it?
  841. # [22:38] <Velmont> It's very possible I could get data from a third party that has a["my.value"] = thing, and I'd want to have a keypath that accesses my.value like that, not the property value on a my object.
  842. # [22:38] <Velmont> So either "my\.value" escaping, or similar stuff.
  843. # [22:39] <jgraham> Velmont: Yeah, I told you that iirc :)
  844. # [22:39] <Velmont> jgraham: Hehe, scrollback doesn't go that far back, so... :-)
  845. # [22:39] <jgraham> Velmont: You could try irc.mozilla.org I guess.
  846. # [22:40] <Velmont> But he's never in. He was in 10 minutes 07.15-07.27. Which wasn't really a great time for me :P
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  854. # [22:54] <matjas> hsivonen: <a href=""http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=112804> typo
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  856. # [22:56] <annevk> if he had omitted the quotes, it would have worked just fine
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  858. # [22:56] <annevk> boo quotes
  859. # [22:56] <annevk> or you know, used a validator :p
  860. # [22:58] <matjas> http://mothereff.in/unquoted-attributes#http%3A%2F%2Fcode.google.com%2Fp%2Fchromium%2Fissues%2Fdetail%3Fid%3D112804
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  862. # [23:04] <WeirdAl> hi annevk: I'm wondering, does the XHR2 spec have those little browser-support icons that HTML5 has?
  863. # [23:04] <WeirdAl> I kinda liked that about Hixie's work
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  865. # [23:08] <zewt> ugh, filing bugs on webkit/chrome is such a waste of time
  866. # [23:09] <zewt> because somehow the user is expected to figure out whether things are chrome or webkit bugs
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  877. # [23:32] <krijn> TabAtkins: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20120206#l-759
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  882. # [23:47] <roc> where can I file bugs on GMail?
  883. # [23:47] <Hixie> roc: what's the bug?
  884. # [23:48] <roc> every couple of minutes GMail pops up a message asking me to confirm that it should use rocallahan@mozilla.com as a backup address. I click "yes, this address is correct" and the message goes way, then comes back a bit later
  885. # [23:51] * Quits: Zauberfisch (Zauberfisc@venus.zauberfisch.at) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  886. # [23:51] <Hixie> roc: do you have the exact text of the message?
  887. # [23:51] * Joins: Zauberfisch (Zauberfisc@venus.zauberfisch.at)
  888. # [23:51] <roc> I'll give it to you when it comes back :-)
  889. # [23:51] <roc> there we go
  890. # [23:51] <roc> "Hey, this is important: If you ever lose access to your account, we can send password reset info to rocallahan@mozilla.com. This address is correct | Update this address"
  891. # [23:52] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
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  893. # [23:55] <Hixie> roc: can you tell me your account e-mail address so i can put it in the bug report? (since it doesn't seem to happen to everyone so they might need it to track down the issue)
  894. # [23:55] <roc> rocallahan@gmail.com
  895. # [23:55] <roc> thanks!
  896. # [23:56] <roc> although I can't help feeling that being a front-end to Google's bug database is an incredibly poor use of your time
  897. # [23:57] <Hixie> google has too many users to actually expose the bug database, unfortunately
  898. # [23:57] <Hixie> it would be completely unmanageable
  899. # [23:58] <Hixie> anyway, np
  900. # [23:58] <Hixie> i'll let you know if anything happens specifically on your bug
  901. # [23:58] <Hixie> it's probably a known issue so it'll probably just get aggregated down to some todo list somewhere and i'll never hear back :-P
  902. # Session Close: Tue Feb 07 00:00:00 2012

The end :)