/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-08 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 08 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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21. # [00:55] <Hixie> zcorpan pointed me to some spam on the status annotations, so i poked around a bit
22. # [00:55] <Hixie> and cleared out the obvious spam
23. # [00:55] <Hixie> yay for having a database that logs every single change and trivially lets me roll back specific changes
24. # [00:55] <Hixie> my favourite was that #background had the following test: http://www12.0zz0.com/2012/02/07/10/492179392.jpg
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26. # [01:02] <nessy> lol
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44. # [01:36] <Hixie> abarth: is there a more up to date reference for "The Web Origin Concept" than the RFC?
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46. # [01:38] <abarth> Hixie: nope
47. # [01:38] <Hixie> k
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55. # [02:06] <crankharder> my cache manifest looks somethin like this: http://pastie.org/3338233 -- after it gets loaded, it seems that any page that returns a 404/500 gets redirected to the cached version of /offline, even when still online
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235. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: on the topic of unnecessary headers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Feb/0144.html
236. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> (in this case, response headers)
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239. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> I wish it was possible to run Firefox and Nightly at the same time
240. # [03:40] <heycam> it is!
241. # [03:41] <heycam> you just need to start from the command line to do it
242. # [03:41] <heycam> and use separate profiles
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245. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> heycam: ah, OK
246. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> didn't know
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406. # [10:26] <annevk> morning
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410. # [10:35] <annevk> oh yes
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412. # [10:35] <annevk> HTTP was fixed with regards to automatic redirect behavior
413. # [10:35] <annevk> only took half a decade
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419. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno if you saw my ping about this earlier, but on the topic of unnecessary headers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Feb/0144.html
420. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> response header in this case
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428. # [11:00] <zcorpan> "I think that while talking about responsive image, introducing element that would choose image based on media-query, we should explore more generic approach... any media"
429. # [11:00] <zcorpan> OK, now that thread totally lost track of the original problem
430. # [11:00] <wilhelm_> zcorpan: Which list?
431. # [11:00] <zcorpan> whatwg
432. # [11:01] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-February/034767.html
433. # [11:03] <annevk> there already is a media attribute
434. # [11:03] <zcorpan> why stop there? let's reinvent SVG's <switch>
435. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> oh did that some from SVG?
436. # [11:04] <annevk> repressed CDF memories bubble up
437. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> is that the same switch that was in early drafts of Web Forms 2.0?
438. # [11:04] <annevk> I don't think so
439. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> I had thought that came from XForms
440. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> ah OK
441. # [11:05] <zcorpan> wow i don't remember a WF2 <switch>
442. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
443. # [11:05] <zcorpan> was it dropped in 2004?
444. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> ah wait
445. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> maybe it was in early Web Apps 1.0
446. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> lemme look
447. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#using
448. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#switch
449. # [11:08] <zcorpan> was that for tabbed interfaces?
450. # [11:09] <zcorpan> seems so
451. # [11:09] <annevk> yeah
452. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-xforms-20010608/slice8.html#ui-conditional-switch
453. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> ah
454. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
455. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> that Xforms one was just a normal case-switch
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486. # [12:20] <annevk> http://validator.w3.org/nu/
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501. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html
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504. # [12:57] * KjetilK comes looking for annevk, long time :-)
505. # [12:59] <KjetilK> annevk, people have been advocating putting Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* indiscriminately into response headers based on the CORS spec
506. # [13:00] <annevk> hey man
507. # [13:00] <KjetilK> I think it makes sense to do so, but when I read the spec, it seems to me it doesn't allow it
508. # [13:00] <KjetilK> o/
509. # [13:00] <annevk> oh
510. # [13:00] <annevk> it's allowed for sure
511. # [13:00] <KjetilK> oh, ok
512. # [13:00] <annevk> and it's safe, too
513. # [13:00] <KjetilK> yeah, it amounts to saying "actually, I don't care"
514. # [13:01] <annevk> unless it's an intranet resource or some such
515. # [13:01] <KjetilK> right
516. # [13:01] <annevk> then it's not safe
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518. # [13:02] <KjetilK> so, I suppose it is the start of 5.1 that is a bit confusing
519. # [13:02] <KjetilK> since if I just follow the link to "simple cross-origin request", then, yes, it seems to be allowed
520. # [13:02] <KjetilK> but if I just read on, then it seems it is conditional on the request Origin header
521. # [13:03] <annevk> should clarify that I guess
522. # [13:03] <KjetilK> would be nice
523. # [13:05] * KjetilK was about to create som Plack middleware for it, but sees it has already been done
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525. # [13:06] <annevk> cool
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527. # [13:09] * KjetilK pings his favorite Debian developer about it instead
528. # [13:10] <annevk> i think i'm gonna water down the server requirements
529. # [13:11] <annevk> they are rough guidelines for certain scenarios, but servers can really do whatever the fuck they want
530. # [13:11] <annevk> it doesn't matter
531. # [13:11] <KjetilK> ok
532. # [13:11] <annevk> as long as the clients are compliant everything should be good
533. # [13:11] <KjetilK> yup
534. # [13:11] <KjetilK> any timeline for it to go to Rec?
535. # [13:12] <annevk> I don't really care, but people seem to try to push it to Last Call
536. # [13:12] <annevk> so, couple more years maybe...
537. # [13:12] <KjetilK> hehe
538. # [13:12] <annevk> it's not going to change
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542. # [13:13] * KjetilK would have liked a normative reference from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol, but that's happening RSN :-)
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546. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Exorcising DTDs with RDFa: http://www.w3.org/News/2012.html#entry-9353
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548. # [13:30] <zcorpan> wasn't there a DTD for RDFa+HTML?
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552. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, there is still
553. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> oh
554. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> no, not for RDFa+HTML specifically
555. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> not currently at least afaik
556. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> they do have a DTD in the RDF Core 1.1 spec
557. # [13:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: there have been various RDFa + some legacy deliverable of the XHTML2 WG
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559. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> I seriously think we should have a policy that bans WGs from publishing any new DTDs
560. # [13:41] <GPHemsley> annevk: I think it is dangerous to suggest that a content author would have sufficient knowledge to determine whether a particular phrase might be untranslatable in another language; this differs from specifically asserting that something should not be translated, as a name or technical term.
561. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I've pushed all changes upstream
562. # [13:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
563. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> thank you man
564. # [13:43] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/#validation
565. # [13:43] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
566. # [13:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: :-(
567. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, if you happen to (re)look at the changesets, probably best to look in reverse chronological order, because I ending up backing out/reverting much of the initial changes
568. # [13:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's an HTML WG deliverable, so it can be put through the Decision Process
569. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
570. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> i guess I missed that part of the spec :(
571. # [13:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the validator doesn't start due to schema errors
572. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> yeah
573. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> please retry it
574. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> I found that too
575. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> I think it's due to the presets changing and the entity map needing to be rebuilt
576. # [13:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: sadly i've stopped caring about that kind of thing
577. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but if that doesn't work, lemme know
578. # [13:46] <zcorpan> i've objected to dtds being written and new doctypes being minted before with not so much success
579. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Prediction: Wikipedia will cite Appendix B.1 as the truth despite its rules about primary sources.
580. # [13:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: Google account lives again, FYI.
581. # [13:47] <hsivonen> gsnedders: what happened?
582. # [13:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. rerunning build.py fixed it
583. # [13:48] * MikeSmith breathes a sigh of reliev
584. # [13:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No idea. I got account login forwarding to generic "common reasons for an account to be disabled include ToS violations", etc. etc. Sent email questioning, 24 hours later I login again.
585. # [13:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Never heard from a human.
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587. # [13:49] <hsivonen> gsnedders: scary to be chosen for deletion. but good that it was resolved so quickly
588. # [13:50] <hsivonen> "The only difference between the RDFa 1.1 DTD versus the RDFa 1.1 Lite DTD is the addition of the following attributes to the metainformation attributes collection; content, rel, rev, datatype, resource, and inlist. "
589. # [13:50] <hsivonen> what about href and src?
590. # [13:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Makes me want to prioritize moving my email off there higher.
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593. # [13:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it's unfortunate that Gmail's UI is so vastly superior to Fastmail's
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595. # [13:53] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I practically use the IMAP interface all the time.
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609. # [14:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15936
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614. # [14:21] <hsivonen> this deployment mechanism for Validator.nu is so brittle
615. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I expect real sysadmins to laugh at me
616. # [14:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: could leave a comment on the blog post saying that's taking the spec too far
617. # [14:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure I care enough to change the post
618. # [14:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
619. # [14:27] <hsivonen> annevk: what's prefixing the Fullscreen API buying is so far other than sites having to support multiple syntaxes and "cancel" getting bikeshedded to "exit" and "S" to "s"?
620. # [14:28] <annevk> anyone familiar with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagstuhl ?
621. # [14:29] <annevk> hsivonen: dunno
622. # [14:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: speaking of prefixes, it'd be nice to get Blob.mozSlice unprefixed (also webkitSlice)
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624. # [14:33] <annevk> I got an invite and they upgraded my academic credentials from nothing to Dr.
625. # [14:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is a bug on file?
626. # [14:33] <annevk> not sure if that's a positive or negative, but the castle looks nice
627. # [14:33] <zcorpan> not sure
628. # [14:33] <hsivonen> annevk: everyone is a Dr. in Germany
629. # [14:34] <annevk> so what about the people that actually studied?
630. # [14:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: deployed to validator.nu
631. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: excellent
632. # [14:37] <hsivonen> annevk: doktordoktor I suppose :-)
633. # [14:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: appears not, but i'll file
634. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> glad the changes didn't cause anything to blow up
635. # [14:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it blew up deployment but I fixed it
636. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> ok, glad for that
637. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> and sorry if it blindsided you
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640. # [14:38] <hsivonen> fortunately, the app crashed before it told the old process to shut down
641. # [14:38] <hsivonen> so there was no user-visible interruption in service
642. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> ah good
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644. # [14:43] <hsivonen> hmm. glazou hasn't posted the most import post yet yet
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649. # [14:46] <GPHemsley> annevk: Done (awaiting moderation).
650. # [14:46] <annevk> approved
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654. # [14:49] <GPHemsley> thanks
655. # [14:51] <annevk> roc: I can email www-dom for you
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660. # [15:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725289
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664. # [15:15] <zcorpan> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78111
665. # [15:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. we should give you the bit that allows you to file confirmed bugs
666. # [15:17] <annevk> webkit should too
667. # [15:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm told you now have the CANCONFIRM bit
668. # [15:20] <annevk> heh
669. # [15:20] <annevk> open source, it works
670. # [15:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: But you can't confirm it? ;)
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672. # [15:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't leveled high enough to confirm that someone can confirm
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677. # [15:35] <matjas> did this section get moved to a different spec? http://web.archive.org/web/20110123174457/http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/apis-in-html-documents.html#dom-innerhtml
678. # [15:35] <annevk> yes
679. # [15:36] <annevk> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html
680. # [15:36] <annevk> long time ago
681. # [15:36] <annevk> you should read the WHATWG Weekly :p
682. # [15:36] <matjas> i must’ve missed that one :(
683. # [15:36] <annevk> spread the news :)
684. # [15:37] <matjas> document.innerHTML used to be mentioned explicitly; has it been removed or does `element.innerHTML` imply it should also work for `document`?
685. # [15:38] <matjas> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#innerhtml
686. # [15:38] <annevk> Ms2ger killed it
687. # [15:38] <annevk> and thereby broke XHR
688. # [15:38] <annevk> he has yet to fix it somehow I believe
689. # [15:40] <hsivonen> killed what? Document.innerHTML?
690. # [15:40] <annevk> yeah
691. # [15:40] <hsivonen> ok
692. # [15:40] <annevk> lack of implementations
693. # [15:40] <hsivonen> DOMParser FTW
694. # [15:40] <annevk> I thought it was useful personally
695. # [15:40] <annevk> people are actually testing XHR + data URLs because they want async
696. # [15:41] <annevk> iirc
697. # [15:41] <annevk> have to ask the typlab guys again
698. # [15:41] <hsivonen> XHR is nicer that DOMParser of course
699. # [15:41] <hsivonen> in Gecko, it does stuff on another thread and doesn't lock the UI
700. # [15:42] <annevk> using XHR seems kind of hackish to me
701. # [15:42] <annevk> but well, if it works
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712. # [16:16] <zcorpan> there's something wrong with table 1 in http://transitioning.to/2012/01/the-world-of-pain-that-is-html5-video/
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714. # [16:17] <zcorpan> it doesn't include firefox 4 and above
715. # [16:17] <zcorpan> maybe each version has less market share than ie6
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718. # [16:18] <zcorpan> but that seems unlikely, no?
719. # [16:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not according to statcounter
720. # [16:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does Chrome really support HW acceleration for H.264?
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735. # [16:46] <zcorpan> i guess the ALA article is the reason for the new whatwg permathreads
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738. # [16:51] <Wilto> Whoever wrote that thing is a total hack. Handsome, though.
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741. # [16:52] <Wilto> But since you mentioned it, I'd kinda like to un-perma the <picture> thread, at least. There's a pretty solid general consensus, but now it's treading water a bit.
742. # [16:53] <Wilto> I'm not certain what the next steps are, but I've pestered a couple of vendor folks about whipping up a functional prototype and I'm writing up a slightly more formal proposal based on the feedback in that thread.
743. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> Wilto, wait until Hixie gets to it
744. # [16:54] <zcorpan> the <picture> proposal from 2007 was totally different. it was for enabling rich fallback.
745. # [16:54] <Wilto> Hah, I kinda thought that might be the next step.
746. # [16:55] <beverloo> I like the <picture> proposal, but do also think it may be a bit ambiguous to authors to have <img>, <picture> and <figure>
747. # [16:55] <Wilto> “picture” drives me up a wall.
748. # [16:55] <beverloo> (name-wise)
749. # [16:55] <Wilto> Yeah.
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751. # [16:56] <Wilto> I want something that says "bigass art." Like you guys saw, I've been chucking around "art" (dumb) and "poster" (ambiguous and also dumb).
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754. # [16:58] <hsivonen> Wilto: what Boris said about what media queries match changing after page load still applies to <picture>, though
755. # [16:58] <zcorpan> Wilto: if you want a successful outcome, try to steer the discussion into use cases, problem descriptions, existing sites working around the lack of the feature, and away from solution proposals
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757. # [17:00] <zcorpan> Wilto: when all there is is solution proposals, it gets ignored
758. # [17:00] <zcorpan> Wilto: if there's a clear problem description, a solution can be designed that solves the problem in the best technical way
759. # [17:00] <zcorpan> having 20 people bikeshedding where the alt attribute should go is just wasting time
760. # [17:01] <Wilto> zcorpan: Seriously, man.
761. # [17:01] * jgraham tried to move to use cases and failed to think of anything that could even possibly be a solution
762. # [17:01] <Wilto> I mean, I can absolutely see use cases. I covered some in that ALA thing. Maybe I'll just move it back in that way.
763. # [17:02] <Wilto> And I can cite no small number of failed attempts to work around the issue.
764. # [17:02] <zcorpan> post use cases and work arounds to the list
765. # [17:02] <zcorpan> that's what Hixie looks at
766. # [17:03] <zcorpan> and then wait for Hixie to respond
767. # [17:03] <zcorpan> good luck :-)
768. # [17:04] <Wilto> Thanks dude! Huge help, this.
769. # [17:04] <zcorpan> np
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776. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> Is this the "RWD Heaven" megathread that I've been ignoring?
777. # [17:07] * Quits: jonatasnona (~jonatas@186.207.192.124) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
778. # [17:07] <Wilto> Nah, that thing scares the hell out of me.
779. # [17:08] <Wilto> I'm not touching that discussion.
780. # [17:08] <jgraham> And the child threads it spawned
781. # [17:08] * Joins: jonatasnona (~jonatas@186.207.192.124)
782. # [17:08] <Wilto> Is that how the <picture> thread kicked off? Eesh.
783. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> (http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Bindings/),
784. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> Heh
785. # [17:08] <Wilto> No wonder it's going in circles.
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787. # [17:13] <Wilto> Anyway. Figure I'll post a big "maybe we're getting a little off-track here; let me sum up the original reasoning, the need, and how we arrived at some of the conclusions we did" thing on there.
788. # [17:13] <Wilto> Thanks again, zcorpan!
789. # [17:15] <jgraham> Wilto: Try to keep it short and to the point :) There are a few epic rambles on that thread already :)
790. # [17:16] <Wilto> Oh, for sure. I'll keep it concise.
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792. # [17:17] <Wilto> I'd like to just say "everyone go read the history on the EtherPad link I posted, and around the third mention of <noscript> you may see where we've exhausted all our options."
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795. # [17:18] <jgraham> Wilto: So the most important thing is "what are your *requirements*"
796. # [17:19] <jgraham> (weird use of quotes there)
797. # [17:19] <Wilto> "A single request that serves an appropriately sized _content_ image, based on screen size." In a perfect world, that's based on media queries—since it would be crazy flexible going forward.
798. # [17:20] <Wilto> But that's the elevator version of it.
799. # [17:20] <jgraham> Just a simple list of "this is what we want to achieve" and "this is why we don't think it is only a temporary set of requirements"
800. # [17:20] <annevk> Ms2ger: where is dom-bindings from?
801. # [17:20] <annevk> Ms2ger: I guess it redirects...
802. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> It does
803. # [17:20] <zcorpan> Wilto: media queries is in the solution proposal bucket
804. # [17:20] <jgraham> Wilto: That is sort of high-level. Your actual requirements must be lower level than that
805. # [17:20] <Wilto> Yeah. Kind of an aside, there.
806. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> I assume you ignore "exclusion opportunity" emails
807. # [17:21] <jgraham> Liek why does the image have to be "appropriately sized"
808. # [17:21] <jgraham> (can you even define what that means?)
809. # [17:21] <jgraham> (because it probably doesn't mean "viewport width")
810. # [17:21] <Wilto> That's a good point.
811. # [17:22] <jgraham> (at least not at the time of the request)
812. # [17:22] <Wilto> "Alternate image sources based on device properties, including but not limited to screen size."
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814. # [17:24] <Wilto> Sure wish I did words gooder.
815. # [17:24] <zcorpan> maybe something like "i want users to see my images with as good quality as possible, as fast as possible, and with as little bandwidth as possible. the user should be able to print a high resolution image after going offline."
816. # [17:25] <zcorpan> if that's what you want
817. # [17:25] <Wilto> Ah, I follow you. I'm phrasing it like I'm pitching a line for a spec somewhere, not describing the goal.
818. # [17:25] <Wilto> Also, that is completely what I want.
819. # [17:26] <zcorpan> then say that :)
820. # [17:26] <Wilto> Also a pony.
821. # [17:26] <Wilto> Santa is really dropping the ball on those two fronts.
822. # [17:27] <Wilto> Again: hugely helpful, guys. Thanks so much.
823. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> hey guys, stop whatever else bulshit you're discussing, because game-changing breaking news just became available: "libreffice" not is including rich text editing
824. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> using HTML 5 canvas
825. # [17:27] <jgraham> Yeah, the key thing about use cases is that they are typically about what your *users* want
826. # [17:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: no idea what it was originally?
827. # [17:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you mean "not" or "now"?
828. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> oops
829. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
830. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> NOW
831. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> see, nobody knew that before yesterday
832. # [17:28] <Wilto> Apparently, shit just got real.
833. # [17:28] <annevk> oh yeah http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-DOM-Bindings-20080410/
834. # [17:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that won't pre-empt the thread, then :-/
835. # [17:28] <annevk> doh
836. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> nobody involved in the discussions knew that until YESTERDAY
837. # [17:28] <zcorpan> one solution i have proposed in the past is using high-res progressive image and http range requests, and let the UA download as much of the image it wants until it has good enough quality, and do a range request for more of the image when it wants higher quality (e.g. because the user zooms in)
838. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> wink wink
839. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> what a fuggin facade
840. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> who is trying to fool who here?
841. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> one fool talking to another and trying to pretend that neither of them knew
842. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> BIG NEWS
843. # [17:29] <zcorpan> but i don't know if that's the best possible solution to the problem
844. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> jesus
845. # [17:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I suppose that'd work with interlaced PNG, but is there a photo compression format where that works?
846. # [17:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: (JPEG2000 is not it)
847. # [17:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: normal JPEG supports progressive compression. is that not good enough?
848. # [17:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that is, a format that has the property that to decode with both dimensions halved, you download the first quarter of data
849. # [17:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does it have the property I just stated?
850. # [17:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: JPEG2000 was supposed to be an improvement in this department, but it was full of FAIL
851. # [17:31] <zcorpan> no idea
852. # [17:31] <annevk> haha "alexmog: More people understand matrices than margin collapsing"
853. # [17:31] <hsivonen> to decode JPEG2000 with dimensions halved without compromising quality, you need to download the first *half* of data
854. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> Wilto: btw your tweets are a model for how others should conduct themselves on twitter
855. # [17:32] <hsivonen> annevk: matrices are taught in high school
856. # [17:32] <zcorpan> my idea is for it to work like <video> fetching where you do an unbounded range fetch and abort when you have "enough"
857. # [17:32] <zcorpan> and do another request when you want more
858. # [17:32] <hsivonen> annevk: margin collapsing wasn't taught when I want to school
859. # [17:33] <annevk> you got matrix math in high school? i'm so jealous
860. # [17:33] <jgraham> We got it in 6th form i.e. at age 17-18
861. # [17:33] * annevk is prolly better with margin collapsing than matrices
862. # [17:33] <jgraham> But not much, really
863. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> 5th form! ;)
864. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: on the subject of searching for appropriate words for things, I wonder if there is a word for "preach the process while simultaneously blowing smoke up everbody's asses"
865. # [17:34] <hsivonen> annevk: it was an opt-in course of an opt-in level of math
866. # [17:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: who is doing that?
867. # [17:35] <annevk> ah, maybe it's Level A math
868. # [17:35] <annevk> we had Level A 1,2 and Level B 1,2
869. # [17:35] <annevk> I did B 1,2
870. # [17:36] <annevk> which was mostly about proofs and silly things
871. # [17:36] <beverloo> matrices sound much, much more like a B thing though
872. # [17:36] <beverloo> given Dutch high-scool maths
873. # [17:36] <annevk> yeah dunno
874. # [17:36] <annevk> too late now
875. # [17:37] <annevk> chance was Level A too, didn't make much sense either
876. # [17:37] <annevk> especially as you needed it quite a bit in advanced Physics
877. # [17:37] <zcorpan> Wilto: maybe the best solution to this problem is "give 10 developers a year or two to improve JPEG encoders to radically reduce file size/quality ratio of JPEG images"
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879. # [17:39] <zcorpan> any markup solution to this problem isn't going to be usable in the next few years anyway, whereas encoding improvements are available to authors immediately
880. # [17:39] <hsivonen> it's nice that people are interested in improving JPEG encoders again
881. # [17:40] <hsivonen> as I understand it, the encoder everyone uses is very old
882. # [17:40] <annevk> decoder or encoder?
883. # [17:40] <zcorpan> encoder
884. # [17:40] <hsivonen> has it been improved since the Independent JPEG group dude wrote it?
885. # [17:42] <annevk> supposedly Opera has a proprietary decoder (not sure about encoder) that's superior
886. # [17:43] <hsivonen> superior in speed? memory footprint?
887. # [17:43] <annevk> both I believe
888. # [17:43] <annevk> but this information is quite old :)
889. # [17:44] <zcorpan> next stop: örebro c
890. # [17:44] <annevk> on the train?
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892. # [17:44] <annevk> guess so
893. # [17:45] <annevk> so Sweden uses "C", Norway "S", and the Netherlands "CS"
894. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> hbf?
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896. # [17:46] <annevk> Ms2ger: Germany
897. # [17:46] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
898. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Correct
899. # [17:46] <annevk> Hauptbahnhof
900. # [17:47] <annevk> kind of funny how in Norway and Sweden the words are put together whereas in Dutch, which typically does that, they are not
901. # [17:48] <annevk> oh well, back to work
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907. # [18:11] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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913. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: you are too 元気過ぎ with that message
914. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
915. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> instead we need more positive vibrations
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917. # [18:26] <Wilto> MikeSmith: Swearing about the MBTA and referencing Zelda constantly?
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919. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> This demonstrates the value of testing lots of permutations: -ms-transform-origin: 0 0 1em computes to "0px 0px 0px", but "1em 0 1em" computes to "16px 0px 16px".
920. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> Cool bug.
921. # [18:27] <jgraham> MikeSmith: We have a WebAPI for that right?
922. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> you dudes are great
923. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> you give me hope
924. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> Wilto: keep that shit up man
925. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> seriously
926. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> jgraham: but don't be quite so cynical
927. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> there is hope
928. # [18:30] <Wilto> MikeSmith: Will do, sir. Will do.
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937. # [18:44] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: stay positive, dammit!
938. # [18:45] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: also, Google translate says your funny pictures mean "Too healthy" :)
939. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> heh
940. # [18:46] <dglazkov> or "past energetic", apparently.
941. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> no
942. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> keep pushing
943. # [18:46] <dglazkov> that would be when I start all-caping my greetings.
944. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> keep Dominic in the loop
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963. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: heh
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977. # [19:55] <hober> Wilto: if constantly swearing about the T is wrong, I don't want to be right
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980. # [20:00] <kennyluck> I think what the RWD thread needs is a wiki page.
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982. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> I think what it needs is a flamethrower
983. # [20:02] <Wilto> That “heaven” one?
984. # [20:03] <Wilto> hober: Our hatred only fuels the T. Until it falls over and/or bursts into flames.
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993. # [20:18] <crankharder> soooo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9187094/application-cache-404-500-pages
994. # [20:18] <crankharder> ^-- app cache, fallback, 400/500 pages
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996. # [20:19] <hober> Wilto: these days I spend my time cursing Muni; i'm just a veteran of T-cursing
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1007. # [20:56] <Hixie> gsnedders: k
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1011. # [21:03] <Hixie> gsnedders: sorry about the lack of transparency, fwiw
1012. # [21:04] <Hixie> gsnedders: as far as e-mail goes, what i do is have my own domain redirect all mail to gmail, and gmail redirect all mail back, so gmail is in the loop (and does spam filtering) but isn't in control (since i can always route around it)
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1018. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: What I'd like to know, more than anything else, is what flipped the presumably automatic switch
1019. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: So I can make sure that isn't a side-effect of my setup
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1032. # [21:28] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah, the lack of transparency there sucks. i think the theory is that if we were transparent, abusers would be able to work out what the heuristics were and could game them
1033. # [21:29] <Hixie> gsnedders: but it still sucks
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1037. # [21:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: Any intention to move CanvasPixelArray over to a Uint8ClampedArray?
1038. # [21:50] <Hixie> what's CanvasPixelArray? :-)
1039. # [21:51] <Hixie> (we moved over months ago)
1040. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Ah, I missed that. :)
1041. # [21:51] * gsnedders has scarcely followed HTML5-land in a while…
1042. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> I even fixed the tests, as Philip` doesn't work on them
1043. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> (Hi Philip`! Got something planned for tomorrow?)
1044. # [21:53] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: The ones in the W3C HTML5 test repo?
1045. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Yep
1046. # [21:55] <roc> annevk: thanks for the email to www-dom. Also, I have been to Dagstuhl a couple of times
1047. # [21:58] <Hixie> lol, csswg wants to keep fullscreen in its charter
1048. # [21:58] <Hixie> meanwhile, the spec is being written elsewhere
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1050. # [22:00] <annevk> roc: oh really, is it worth it?
1051. # [22:01] <roc> it will depend mostly on who's going and what the topic is
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1053. # [22:02] <roc> I really liked the location but mainly because of the history, and you already live in a place that has history so that may not matter to you
1054. # [22:03] <annevk> kk, guess I won't be going then; not that much into security
1055. # [22:03] <roc> zcorpan: other than mysteriously failing to mention Firefox 4, they also fail to mention that Google has promised to remove H.264 from Chrome
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1057. # [22:04] <jgraham> roc: So far that promise hasn't been worth much
1058. # [22:04] <roc> annevk: btw I don't know if you noticed, but hsivonen was castigating you for changing the case of the identifiers in the fullscreen spec
1059. # [22:05] <roc> jgraham: don't get me started
1060. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> Alright, we won't
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1062. # [22:06] <roc> gaaaah
1063. # [22:06] <roc> something happened to my machine during a Windows update and now Flash crashes incessantly ... in all browsers
1064. # [22:07] <jgraham> Haha
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1066. # [22:07] <jgraham> I suggest deleting flash :)
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1100. # [23:26] <roc> This is the best idea I've heard all day: "I'm confident that if authors had to write "-webkit-contact-www-hyphen-style-at-w3-dot-org-for-standardization-text-size-adjust" that there would be a strong incentive to get the first W3C draft submitted quickly."
1101. # [23:32] * Parts: teleject (~christoph@cpe-66-69-217-240.austin.res.rr.com)
1102. # [23:32] <annevk> roc: the casing changed ages ago with some amount of discussion; if everyone thinks it's better with a dash and all I guess we should go with that, but it seems rather silly to me
1103. # [23:32] <annevk> and anyway, implementations are prefixed today so it does not seem to matter much
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1107. # [23:33] <annevk> long term it seems that dashes in words go away anyway; just some kind of transition period
1108. # [23:33] <roc> there's no dash in our implementation
1109. # [23:33] <roc> we're currently mozRequestFullScreen
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1111. # [23:34] <roc> and mozCancelFullScreen
1112. # [23:35] <roc> Webkit is analogous
1113. # [23:35] <roc> Henri was complaining that changing the case of the S and changing cancel to exit were bikeshedding changes
1114. # [23:36] <roc> (that we should have prevented by shipping unprefixed)
1115. # [23:36] <roc> I'd like you guys to sort it out :-)
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1118. # [23:40] <annevk> there's a dash in the pseudo-class, implies camelcase in the name
1119. # [23:40] <annevk> both equally bad imo
1120. # [23:40] <annevk> guess I can ask hsivonen tomorrow
1121. # [23:41] <annevk> I don't really feel that strongly, but it seems that if it's acceptable to have a simpler to type variant, we should go with that
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1125. # [23:45] <jgraham> roc: Not sure why a long silly name is good. The only way it would help would be to discourage people from using stuff. But if that was the goal, simply not releasing it would be far more effective.
1126. # [23:46] <annevk> meh
1127. # [23:46] <annevk> inbox 404
1128. # [23:46] <annevk> i was at less than 330 or so
1129. # [23:47] <annevk> holidays are over it seems
1130. # [23:47] <roc> there are competing valid goals, so simply choosing some and dropping the others doesn't solve the problem
1131. # [23:47] <jgraham> You are aiming to reach 310?
1132. # [23:47] <annevk> maybe i should 410 it
1133. # [23:47] <annevk> inbox gone certainly has a nice ring to it
1134. # [23:47] <jgraham> Uh, yeah 410
1135. # [23:47] <jgraham> Dammit
1136. # [23:47] <annevk> anyway, sleepytimes
1137. # [23:47] <annevk> nn
1138. # [23:49] <jgraham> roc: It isn't clear to me why anyone would favour the paricular compromise where you go for maximum ridiculosity in the name.
1139. # [23:53] <roc> annevk: oh, you're talking about the CSS identifiers? CSS is totally addicted to hyphens in names, there's no getting away from that
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1142. # Session Close: Thu Feb 09 00:00:00 2012

The end :)