/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 10 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  4. # [00:05] <roc> Oh, I don't think everything legal is moral. I'm a Christian, I think tons of legal things are immoral. But the change that's needed is much more than just telling companies they should behave morally. They need to be reprogrammed with different goals.
  5. # [00:08] <roc> I disagree with jamesr_ on one thing though, which is that something productive can come of talking about who's evil. Namely, a lot of people don't like working for evil companies, and we can use that to put them at a hiring disadvantage.
  6. # [00:10] <erlehmann> a *lot* of people? color me surprised.
  7. # [00:10] * Quits: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@p4FE256CD.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  8. # [00:10] * jgraham notes for posterity that he agrees with the entire line starting "Oh, I don't think", with the single change s/a Christian/an atheist/
  9. # [00:11] <erlehmann> hehe
  10. # [00:11] <roc> put it this way, we don't hire a lot of great people at Mozilla because of the stock options
  11. # [00:11] <gavin> let the offical record reflect that I also concur
  12. # [00:12] <jamesr_> it can be a factor. there aren't many people who you would want to influence in this way to begin with. it's not immediately useful for changing the CSS WG policies, though
  13. # [00:12] <jgraham> erlehmann: Yeah, I think there is a large set of people that would be loathe to work at a company they didn't believe in
  14. # [00:12] <Philip`> Dungeon Keeper has taught me that evil is fun, so I'd only want to work for evil companies
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  16. # [00:13] <jgraham> jamesr_: I'm not sure what is useful for changing their policy
  17. # [00:14] <jgraham> To my eyes they are clinging to a comforting fiction in the face of stark evidence it is wrong
  18. # [00:14] <jamesr_> they = us, for many of us anyway
  19. # [00:15] <jamesr_> CSS WG = browser vendors, web developers and other interested parties
  20. # [00:15] <jgraham> Well sure
  21. # [00:15] <roc> none of the browser vendors are arguing against supporting -webkit prefixes, not even you or Apple
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  24. # [00:17] <Hixie> roc: maximising profits isn't, as far as i can tell, a legal requirement. (If it was, why would companies be giving profits away to charity all the time, even beyond any possible tax benefit?)
  25. # [00:17] <roc> it's Web devs and standardistas who are agains tit
  26. # [00:17] <erlehmann> :/
  27. # [00:17] <roc> Hixie: companies justify it as buying goodwill/PR
  28. # [00:17] <jamesr_> roc, you mean arguing against webkit-derived browsers supporting -webkit prefixes, or all browsers supporting -webkit?
  29. # [00:17] <roc> all
  30. # [00:18] <Hixie> roc: some may
  31. # [00:18] <jgraham> roc: It is much less clear that people from web browsers (including Opera) are in favour of dropping the prefix system entirely
  32. # [00:18] <jamesr_> in the US public companies are required to do what they promise to do in their filing documents
  33. # [00:18] <roc> jgraham: indeed
  34. # [00:18] <jamesr_> which may or may not be maximizing shareholder profit (it often is, but you can create a public company with another goal and be safe against shareholder suits for failing to maximize profits if you can show that you never said you would)
  35. # [00:20] * Joins: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com)
  36. # [00:20] <jamesr_> it's a common misconception that it's illegal to fail to maximize profits
  37. # [00:21] <gsnedders> Mozilla Corp. is wholly owned by the Foundation, right?
  38. # [00:21] <gavin> yes
  39. # [00:22] <roc> ok then
  40. # [00:22] <roc> I take it back
  41. # [00:22] <roc> Apple and Google are evil for prioritizing profits over the open Web
  42. # [00:23] <BenoitRen> I just read almost all of that weblog post about vendor prefixes. Phew.
  43. # [00:23] <jamesr_> this is where i have a problem, the discussion is starting out in a way that it can't end up productively
  44. # [00:23] <BenoitRen> I think he has some good points, but no, the box models should not have been changed to IE's.
  45. # [00:23] <BenoitRen> *box model
  46. # [00:24] <jarek> I hope that the vendor prefix madness will get even worse
  47. # [00:25] <jarek> ... because I'm developing CSS ide that will be inserting them automatically
  48. # [00:25] <erlehmann> perverse incentices
  49. # [00:26] <jgraham> jarek: Man, I hadn't even thought about tool vendors as a constituent. No wonder Glazou wants to keep them so badly ;)
  50. # [00:26] <jarek> at some point it will be possible to write CSS by hand, they will have to buy my product :P
  51. # [00:26] <jarek> s/possible/impossible
  52. # [00:27] <jarek> jgraham: Glazou is the author of BlueGriffon, right?
  53. # [00:27] <jgraham> yup
  54. # [00:27] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
  55. # [00:27] <roc> the conspiracy unmasked!
  56. # [00:29] <jamesr_> roc, i think it's a mistake to try to start a conversation with accusations and blame
  57. # [00:29] <roc> I didn't
  58. # [00:29] <jamesr_> ok, it's a mistake to put it in the middle of a conversation then
  59. # [00:29] <roc> http://robert.ocallahan.org/2012/02/alternatives-to-supporting-webkit.html no accusations, no blame
  60. # [00:30] <roc> apart from the people saying we should just work harder --- they suck
  61. # [00:31] <roc> and that dig at Apple I guess, but that's just fact
  62. # [00:31] <jarek> what about this idea https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570609
  63. # [00:32] <jarek> "Evangelize Web developers to not use prefixed properties on production sites."
  64. # [00:32] <roc> I used to think the "common prefix" approach was dumb, but I'm gradually warming to it
  65. # [00:32] <erlehmann> jarek, implying anyone would write a draft before implementing?
  66. # [00:32] <roc> it might add some value
  67. # [00:32] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  68. # [00:32] <erlehmann> i thing it is dump.
  69. # [00:32] <erlehmann> dumz
  70. # [00:32] <erlehmann> dumb
  71. # [00:32] <erlehmann> right key.
  72. # [00:32] <jarek> I doubt anyone could convince me to drop vendor prefixes, there are too awesome
  73. # [00:32] <roc> not as good as "experimental features off by default in release builds" though
  74. # [00:32] <jarek> s/there/they
  75. # [00:33] <erlehmann> jarek, too awesome?
  76. # [00:33] <erlehmann> roc, I think “experimental features off by default” is something that would be nice.
  77. # [00:33] <jgraham> jarek: That isn't substantially better. It makes it easier for multiple people to implement prefixed stuff without having to fight tedious political battles, but as long as there is content that depends on -dev- then it still creates a legacy of undocumented features that the WG feel they can ignore
  78. # [00:33] <gsnedders> roc: Need to drop prefixes more quickly though relaly.
  79. # [00:33] <gsnedders> roc: (for that to work)
  80. # [00:34] <jarek> erlehmann: yeah, especially the stuff that landed in WebKit recently (filters, shaders)
  81. # [00:34] <gsnedders> But basically I think we should drop prefixes more quickly and have prefixed stuff off by default
  82. # [00:34] <erlehmann> jarek, I bet you also use IE filters.
  83. # [00:34] <erlehmann> gsnedders, i concur
  84. # [00:34] * jgraham doesn't see how you will get people to agree to turn prefixed stuff of by default
  85. # [00:34] <jarek> erlehmann: only for gradients...
  86. # [00:34] <jgraham> *off
  87. # [00:34] <jgraham> It just doesn't align with their incentives
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  89. # [00:34] <erlehmann> jarek, oh you
  90. # [00:35] <erlehmann> jgraham, one can still propose it.
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  93. # [00:36] <jgraham> erlehmann: One can propose that we depend on FTL travel to violate causality and so get standards based on implementations before the implementations ship. It won't happen though.
  94. # [00:36] <karlcow> jarek: awesome in which ways? Are we not sometimes into "CSS Otaku", attracted by the last feature because it is our domain but the majority of users don't give a shit.
  95. # [00:36] <roc> sometimes we can persuade browser vendors to do things that don't align with their incentives
  96. # [00:36] <erlehmann> jgraham, you so negative
  97. # [00:36] <roc> Web authors are hopeless because there are too many of them
  98. # [00:36] <erlehmann> karlcow, harr harr
  99. # [00:36] <jgraham> roc: It is easier, I grant you
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  101. # [00:36] <roc> for browsers, there's really only a small number of people who need to be persuaded
  102. # [00:36] <erlehmann> roc, i believe it when apple does vorbis ;)
  103. # [00:36] <roc> *sometimes*
  104. # [00:37] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Not everything is equally easy to persuade.
  105. # [00:37] <jgraham> roc: If you can get people to agree to never ship experimental stuff by default then I won't stand in your way
  106. # [00:37] <roc> also, the vast majority of browser developers are really excellent people, we have personal contacts, and so forth
  107. # [00:37] <erlehmann> gsnedders, i have no idea where to even start.
  108. # [00:37] <jgraham> Indeed I will be both ha[[y and impressed
  109. # [00:37] <jgraham> *happy
  110. # [00:37] <roc> jgraham: will you join in?
  111. # [00:37] <erlehmann> roc, “excellent people” is a null information. :/
  112. # [00:38] <jgraham> But I predict they will argue that shipping stuff by default is needed to get large scale feedback
  113. # [00:38] <roc> we can try
  114. # [00:38] <roc> I'm actually in favour of shipping stuff by default, but off by default behind about:config or similar
  115. # [00:38] <jgraham> and will be under pressure from their marketing people to ship stuff on by default for PR reasons
  116. # [00:39] <gsnedders> (e.g., shipping first)
  117. # [00:39] <zewt> ... which i'd agree with; even on hobby sites i'd very rarely bother trying any API that isn't enabled on browsers by default
  118. # [00:39] <jgraham> Right "by default" I mean "on in the default config"
  119. # [00:39] <roc> Tab said he was in favour of this
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  121. # [00:40] <gsnedders> roc: I think you'll find most engineers in favour of it. Whether that's enough is a different question.
  122. # [00:40] <roc> I don't know if it was discussed on webkit-dev. If there was agreement there, I'm pretty sure it would fly with Mozilla
  123. # [00:40] <roc> TabAtkins: ^^^
  124. # [00:40] <jgraham> It's not webkit-dev I am mostly worried about. It's pr@apple.com and similar
  125. # [00:41] <erlehmann> well, engineers. aren't that the guys who also use RF codecs? ;)
  126. # [00:41] <erlehmann> what jgraham said with less bitterness
  127. # [00:41] <roc> I think we're going to do it anyway where there isn't competitive pressure, like our new SVG Opentype fonts work
  128. # [00:42] <jgraham> roc: Great :)
  129. # [00:42] <jgraham> It is a little past my bedtime...
  130. # [00:42] * jgraham -> sleep
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  132. # [00:44] <karlcow> ah jgraham going to his -bedkit-
  133. # [00:48] <BenoitRen> So we're going to have websites who tell users to enable something in about:config to have some whiz-bang CSS work.
  134. # [00:49] <bga> heh you spawn new ie6 and now want to fight against it's monopoly
  135. # [00:50] <jarek> + afaik there is no about:config in IE10
  136. # [00:50] <jarek> btw, what's the stance of Microsoft on this issue?
  137. # [00:50] <jarek> they have implement a lot of -ms-* properties in IE10
  138. # [00:50] <roc> BenoitRen: they can try that, but it probably won't work for most users, so sites wouldn't be able to rely on it
  139. # [00:52] <BenoitRen> Sites will just add more instructions for other browsers, like they already do for cookies, for example.
  140. # [00:52] <erlehmann> hell, not even „install a browser that can play h.264“ works
  141. # [00:52] <erlehmann> people just leave the site
  142. # [00:52] <BenoitRen> "PLEASE ENABLE COOKIES OUR WEB DEVELOPERS WERE TOO DUMB TO HAVE THE SITE WORK WITHOUT"
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  144. # [00:53] <BenoitRen> erlehmann: Of course not. That's too vague. ;)
  145. # [00:53] <jamesr_> roc, we'd like to ship things only to our canary+dev channels and off in beta+stable
  146. # [00:53] <BenoitRen> But if people really want to see the dancing bunnies, they /will/ see the dancing bunnies!
  147. # [00:53] <erlehmann> BenoitRen, cookies are entrenched. also, round up those web devs and give them a scornful speech!
  148. # [00:54] <roc> jamesr_: maybe if just you guys and us and Opera agree, that's enough
  149. # [00:54] <roc> Apple and IE are less of a problem because of their slower update cycle
  150. # [00:55] * roc wonders what the right way is to organize this
  151. # [00:55] <BenoitRen> erlehmann: If only I could. I once phoned a webshop's customer service to complain about their user agent sniffing that meant that some critical JavaScript wasn't provided. I couldn't even get the idiot to forward my complaint to the web developers; he was convinced that my browser was the problem.
  152. # [00:56] <jamesr_> roc, we have to get buy-in from apple on these sorts of things
  153. # [00:56] <jamesr_> i think they're a little less convinced of the channel idea
  154. # [00:56] <jamesr_> (since they have no such concept)
  155. # [00:56] <jamesr_> but maybe
  156. # [00:56] <erlehmann> BenoitRen, my provider sends mystery RST packets and they blamed the kernel of my device.
  157. # [00:56] <jamesr_> roc, note when i say "we" i mean "some of us"
  158. # [00:56] <jamesr_> we aren't a monolithic bloc in lockstep
  159. # [00:56] <erlehmann> jamesr_ i have said it before and i'll say it again: safari [mobile] is the new IE6
  160. # [00:56] <jamesr_> just like mozilla isn't, and just like apple isn't
  161. # [00:56] <roc> Webkit allows you to enable/disable experimental features, so I guess technically it's possible
  162. # [00:56] <roc> and Safari lags behind because of the update schedule anyway
  163. # [00:57] <jamesr_> webkit controls a lot of stuff with compile-time switches
  164. # [00:57] <roc> but I understand
  165. # [00:57] <roc> that's why I wondered if there was a webkit-dev discussion last time Tab raised this
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  167. # [01:00] <jamesr_> and there's a genuine concern about landing code for features that they feel uneasy about even if we promise to restrict to some channels
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  172. # [01:02] <roc> not sure I follow
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  181. # [01:09] <jamesr_> roc, even if we (chrome team) want to do new features this way (channel restrictions but no prefix), that's generally not sufficient for us to actually do it unless apple agrees
  182. # [01:10] <roc> I see, they might be worried about landing stuff unprefixed on any branch?
  183. # [01:11] <jamesr_> right, roughly. we don't have separate SVN branches for our releases, for instance
  184. # [01:11] <jamesr_> we land stuff in trunk and then we cut release branches off of trunk and they advance through the channels as a numbered branch
  185. # [01:11] <roc> Can you easily support having both prefixed and unprefixed aliases with independent enabling/disabling? I assume so
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  188. # [01:12] <roc> anyway, if it hasn't been discussed on webkit-dev yet, I hope it can be soon
  189. # [01:13] <jamesr_> we've talked about this at webkit meetups, not sure if it's been discussed on the mailing list
  190. # [01:13] <jamesr_> i know simon and tab are flying/will fly soon back from paris
  191. # [01:13] <jamesr_> and they'll probably both have input
  192. # [01:13] <roc> none of this affects what we have to do for existing stuff of course
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  258. # [06:02] <josephg> hey guys
  259. # [06:03] <josephg> does anyone here know anything about mutation observers?
  260. # [06:03] <josephg> I'm playing with them in chrome canary, but they're quite buggy… I wonder if I should file the bugs I'm finding.
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  282. # [07:37] <jamesr_> josephg, you mean the new API
  283. # [07:37] <jamesr_> josephg, ?
  284. # [07:37] <jamesr_> josephg, i don't know much about them in particular, but you should definitely file bugs!
  285. # [07:37] <jamesr_> it's new stuff and some rough edges are probably expected
  286. # [07:37] <jamesr_> bugs.webkit.org, minimal testcases preferred but not required
  287. # [07:38] <jamesr_> josephg, you can cc me (jamesr@chromium.org) if bugzilla will let you do that
  288. # [07:38] <jamesr_> cheers
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  379. # [08:24] <josephg> jamesr_: yeah the new api. I filed a bug on chromium - should I file a bug on webkit as well?
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  430. # [08:37] <josephg> jamesr_: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=113584
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  487. # [08:56] <mhausenblas> hsivonen, congrats for http://validator.w3.org/nu/ - KUTGW!
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  549. # [09:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: why did https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15941 get in the "other Hixie drafts" bucket?
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  568. # [09:24] <zcorpan> "Instead of coding against a single CSS specification developers will need to code against changing vendor prefixes." http://www.webmonkey.com/2012/02/webkit-isnt-breaking-the-web-you-are/
  569. # [09:24] <zcorpan> of course, -webkit-foo is stable and the spec is the one that's changing
  570. # [09:25] <zcorpan> i don't understand the argument "it'll break the standards process"
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  609. # Session Close: Fri Feb 10 09:52:23 2012
  610. #
  611. # Session Start: Fri Feb 10 09:52:23 2012
  612. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  614. # [09:53] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  615. # [09:53] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  616. # [09:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  617. # [09:53] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  693. # [10:20] <jgraham> zcorpan: People seem to believe as an article of faith that -vendor- is needed to allow innovation in CSS (but not, apparently in other areas like HTML). The desire to not critically examine that particular belief is the number 1 cause of tortured, convoluted, and often nonsensical, reasoning in this whole discussion.
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  705. # [10:23] <zcorpan> i see
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  707. # [10:25] <annevk5> so someone wants to advertise a commercial good on blog.whatwg.org?
  708. # [10:25] <annevk5> is that okay?
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  710. # [10:25] <annevk5> in particular: http://alaramills.com/store.html
  711. # [10:26] <annevk5> does not really strike me as something we want to do
  712. # [10:26] <jgraham> It sounds kind of not-OK to me
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  720. # [10:29] <GlitchMr> Not interested in this Periodic table of HTML5 elements
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  723. # [10:31] <GlitchMr> It seems less useful than for example http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/07/06/html-5-cheat-sheet-pdf/ (if you want something printable of course :P) and it's paid...
  724. # [10:32] <GlitchMr> Artistically, I like the format of it, but that's all.
  725. # [10:33] * oal_ is now known as oal
  726. # [10:34] <jgraham> I think you can stop advertising them in the irc logs now ;)
  727. # [10:34] <annevk5> thanks for the feedback
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  731. # [10:34] <annevk5> the samshingmag is free jgraham
  732. # [10:34] <jgraham> No, I meant the other thing
  733. # [10:35] <jgraham> I imagine that "it seems less useful than" will still make it more likely that people will investigate the link :)
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  736. # [10:37] <zcorpan> oh, oh, but surely http://simon.html5.org/html-elements is the most useful of all! and FREE!!
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  741. # [10:38] <annevk5> anyway I declined
  742. # [10:39] <zcorpan> I ALSO SELL VIAGRA PILLS
  743. # [10:39] <zcorpan> what? i didn't say anything
  744. # [10:39] <GlitchMr> Sorry, you were logged in IRC logs...
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  769. # [10:52] <annevk5> cats
  770. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> dogs
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  772. # [10:52] <jgraham> pigs, but after 9 months you slaughter them, and then bacon.
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  774. # [10:53] <annevk5> btw
  775. # [10:53] <annevk5> tomorrow is my talk on XML5
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  777. # [10:53] <annevk5> it'll be a bit over 20 minutes so there's not too much time
  778. # [10:54] <annevk5> anything I should cover?
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  780. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> Vendor prefixes
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  786. # [11:05] <annevk5> dude
  787. # [11:06] <Ms2ger> Yes dude?
  788. # [11:06] <annevk5> XML already has its own prefix hell
  789. # [11:06] <annevk5> no need for making it worse
  790. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> We could start using namespaces called http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/xml/parsererror.xml
  791. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> Oh wait, we do
  792. # [11:07] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Oh may, you nailed it.
  793. # [11:07] <jgraham> *man
  794. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> Opera must be really evil to implement that instead of http://www.opera.com/newlayout/xml/parsererror.xml
  795. # [11:07] <jgraham> Vendor prefixes have failed because they're not URIs!
  796. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> jgraham++
  797. # [11:08] <annevk5> making them URLs might actually solve the problem
  798. # [11:09] <jgraham> annevk5: Not if your argument is "they would be hard to type"
  799. # [11:09] <jgraham> Because no one actually types CSS anymore
  800. # [11:09] <jgraham> Not the cool kids anyway
  801. # [11:11] <annevk5> I was going for too confusing
  802. # [11:11] <annevk5> but I was also mostly joking
  803. # [11:11] <jgraham> :)
  804. # [11:12] <annevk5> the main problem with this XML5 talk is that I'm not sure we want the hassle of changing XML anymore
  805. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> Heh
  806. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> "XML5: I dunno if we want this"
  807. # [11:13] <jgraham> Well if we had a non-sucky XML it might solve the problems that the Web Components people are having with templates, or something
  808. # [11:13] <annevk5> if XML has to become some kind of authoring format used by web developers I think XML5 is pretty much required
  809. # [11:13] <annevk5> but it seems we moved past that and nobody cared
  810. # [11:14] <Ms2ger> We have XML5, no?
  811. # [11:14] <annevk5> jgraham: well yeah, that's certainly true, and SVG/Math and Components might have provided a compelling story for it
  812. # [11:14] <Ms2ger> It's <br /> sent as text/html
  813. # [11:14] <annevk5> but now all is text/html anyway
  814. # [11:14] <annevk5> Ms2ger: only works in Belgium
  815. # [11:15] <Ms2ger> lulz
  816. # [11:16] <annevk5> whoa
  817. # [11:16] <annevk5> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/02/jury-rules-that-eolass-interactive-web-patent-is-invalid.ars
  818. # [11:16] <annevk5> can we countersue now?
  819. # [11:16] <annevk5> we implemented all kinds of silly techniques iirc
  820. # [11:17] <Ms2ger> Alright
  821. # [11:17] <Ms2ger> If anybody said something useful in an email in my inbox that has "prefix" in the subject, send it again
  822. # [11:18] <Ms2ger> And add "responsive" to that
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  824. # [11:22] <jgraham> YOu didn't like my email "Vendor prefixes for responsive web design nirvana" then?
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  828. # [11:27] <annevk5> Ms2ger: just fix all the DOM bugs, mkay
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  831. # [11:29] <annevk5> seems like it is time to fly
  832. # [11:29] <annevk5> bah
  833. # [11:30] <annevk5> from -6 to -13
  834. # [11:30] <annevk5> and there's hail
  835. # [11:30] * annevk5 wants to go back on vacation
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  839. # [11:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I dunno if I liked it, it's moved to /dev/null
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  845. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> annevk5: right after you got back you pinged me about the thing
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  847. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> but I forgot what it wa
  848. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> was
  849. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> we were going to do something but we had to wait for some consensus call from webapps WG
  850. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> or www-dom list or something
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  852. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> and I was all ready to do it
  853. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> but I forgot what it was I was all set to do
  854. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> haha that posters costs $47.99
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  857. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> yee hah for CORS for XHR in IE10
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  865. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/167743028637872128
  866. # [12:18] <zcorpan> i saw a tv commercial the other day, for a smartphone. it included "internet, email and facebook"
  867. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  868. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: they know their market I guess
  869. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> annevk5: https://twitter.com/#!/mnot/status/167792607890644992
  870. # [12:20] <zcorpan> let's change CORS to suck less! wait, first we need to prefix all implementations...
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  878. # [12:36] <bga> new regexp engine http://code.google.com/p/brre/
  879. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> Object Pascal
  880. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> cool
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  885. # [13:07] <Taggnostr> I'm looking for broken html pages with lot of markup errors to test a parser, does anyone know where can I find it? (does the html validator at w3.org keep an high-score list of the sites with most errors?)
  886. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> Maybe try google.com?
  887. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: Alexa keeps a list like that
  888. # [13:08] <Taggnostr> I found http://www.trentmueller.com/Top-10-Websites-with-the-Worst-HTML_Article/
  889. # [13:09] <Taggnostr> but those sites now have less errors
  890. # [13:09] <Taggnostr> MikeSmith, a list of sites with broken html?
  891. # [13:09] <jgraham> Taggnostr: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/#hg%2Ftestdata%2Ftree-construction
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  895. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> http://www.alexa.com/topsites
  896. # [13:10] <jgraham> heh
  897. # [13:12] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: do the stars indicate the brokenness?
  898. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> haha
  899. # [13:12] <Taggnostr> I already tested the parser with 1000 popular sites, but I was looking for websites like http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/
  900. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> number of errors per page is not a great metric
  901. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> it's the quality of the errors that matter
  902. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> any jackass can ring up the error meter just by putting a bunch of &s or such
  903. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: oh man
  904. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> how'd you find that one?
  905. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> this is gold
  906. # [13:14] <Taggnostr> googling for "worst websites" or something similar
  907. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> the security warning at the top is genius
  908. # [13:14] <Ms2ger> Forget all the other browsers and
  909. # [13:14] <Ms2ger> down with the Web 2.0 net police.
  910. # [13:14] <Taggnostr> but it only has 375 errors on the main page
  911. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> Error: meta element between head and body.
  912. # [13:15] <Taggnostr> (the people who signed the guestbook seem to like it though)
  913. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> that's the kind of thoughtful error I'm talking about
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  916. # [13:16] <Taggnostr> I assume that a website made with word and photoshop and put together with frontpage has enough creative errors
  917. # [13:18] <jgraham> Taggnostr: Seriously, have you tried the tests I linked to
  918. # [13:18] <jgraham> ?
  919. # [13:18] <jgraham> If you pass those you shoud do fine on websites
  920. # [13:19] <Taggnostr> I'm looking at them, but I was searching for real-world pages (it's also easy for me to wget them and use them in my tests)
  921. # [13:19] <Taggnostr> thanks for the link btw!
  922. # [13:19] <jgraham> Passing the tests is much more likely to be helpful than finding real world pages
  923. # [13:19] <jgraham> They are much easier to debug too :)
  924. # [13:20] <jgraham> The only thing that they really lack is crazy-deep nesting and so on
  925. # [13:21] <zcorpan> Taggnostr: what do you use the parser for?
  926. # [13:21] <Taggnostr> it's the Python built-in parser
  927. # [13:21] <zcorpan> ah
  928. # [13:22] <zcorpan> well i can only concur with jgraham, you really want to pass the testsuite
  929. # [13:22] <Taggnostr> my goal right now is to make it able to parse everything without errors, the next goal is to make it parse everything as correctly as possible (following the html5 standard)
  930. # [13:22] <jgraham> I don't understand the difference between those goals
  931. # [13:23] <zcorpan> just implement the parsing algorithm in the spec, it covers all cases
  932. # [13:23] <Taggnostr> right now when the parser finds invalid markup it just raises an error and give up parsing, and there's nothing you can do
  933. # [13:23] <jgraham> Unless you consider "without error" to simply mean "not throwing". In which case lambda html:"" meets the goal
  934. # [13:24] <Taggnostr> and I'm changing that so that it tries to figure out what to do with the invalid markup and keep going till the end
  935. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> You're modifying an existing parser?
  936. # [13:24] <Taggnostr> zcorpan, I can't start from scratch, so I'm adapting what I have to get closer to the specs gradually
  937. # [13:24] <Taggnostr> yes
  938. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> I... wouldn't recommend that
  939. # [13:25] <zcorpan> why can't you start from scratch?
  940. # [13:25] <Ms2ger> I don't know of anybody who's done that
  941. # [13:25] <Taggnostr> well, so far I managed to have it parse a list of 1000 pages successfully with 0 errors, so it's going quite well
  942. # [13:26] <Taggnostr> zcorpan, because I could just use html5lib if I wanted a python parser that follows the specs
  943. # [13:26] <jgraham> Pretty sure we had this conversation before
  944. # [13:26] <Taggnostr> we did
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  946. # [13:27] <jgraham> But if I were you I would wrap html5lib in an API that looks more like the stdlib
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  950. # [13:27] <jgraham> Rather than trying to make the internals of the stdlib more like html5lib
  951. # [13:27] <zcorpan> so you want something that is closer to the spec, but still isn't 100% compliant?
  952. # [13:28] <Taggnostr> but the goal is providing a better html parser in the stdlib, and improving the existing one is the only viable solution (replacing it with html5lib is not really an option)
  953. # [13:28] <Taggnostr> zcorpan, I want to get as close as 100% compliant as possible
  954. # [13:29] <zcorpan> why is replacing it with html5lib not an option?
  955. # [13:29] <Taggnostr> but if it does the wrong thing with some obscure corner cases it probably doesn't matter too much now
  956. # [13:31] <Taggnostr> zcorpan, for several reason, if html5lib is added to the stdlib it will have to follow the python release schedule (so you have to wait many months between releases), it needs someone willing to maintain it, it needs to have a compatible license, it has to be "good enough" to get in the stdlib and replace the existing one and have everyone to switch and so on
  957. # [13:32] <jgraham> So it would get a faster release schedule than today?
  958. # [13:32] * jgraham has neglected html5lib recently
  959. # [13:33] <jgraham> The license shouldn't be a problem
  960. # [13:33] <Taggnostr> how often do you make html5lib releases?
  961. # [13:33] <Taggnostr> for python is more or less 16 months for new features and maybe 4 for bug fixes
  962. # [13:33] <jgraham> Well, uh, the last one was a few years ago. It is horribly out of date compared to trunk. This is somewhat embarassing
  963. # [13:34] <Taggnostr> are people even using it?
  964. # [13:34] <jgraham> It turns out that at any given moment there is always something more fun to do than make a release
  965. # [13:34] <jgraham> Yeah, we get a steady flow of bug reports
  966. # [13:35] <jgraham> and Mozilla use it in their html sanitizer, for example
  967. # [13:35] <Ms2ger> Philip`_, so about your canvas tests...
  968. # [13:35] <Ms2ger> jgraham, oh?
  969. # [13:35] <jgraham> (most of the bug reports as Invalid, I should say)
  970. # [13:35] <jgraham> Ms2ger: The one you use on your websites
  971. # [13:35] <Taggnostr> do they use the development version then?
  972. # [13:35] <jgraham> Nothing in the browser ofc
  973. # [13:35] <Ms2ger> Oh
  974. # [13:35] <Ms2ger> Those people use git
  975. # [13:35] <jgraham> And for that they are to be praised
  976. # [13:35] <jgraham> :p
  977. # [13:36] <jgraham> Taggnostr: I am not sure. A release is long, long overdue. And if I could do one right away I think I would now feel guilty enough to do one
  978. # [13:37] <jgraham> But we will see how the feeling persists to this evening
  979. # [13:37] <Ms2ger> jgraham, today isn't do what the hell you want day?
  980. # [13:38] <Taggnostr> these are some numbers about Python html parser btw: http://dpaste.com/699552/
  981. # [13:38] <jgraham> Nope :|
  982. # [13:39] <Taggnostr> the percentage represent the pages parsed till the end with no errors
  983. # [13:39] <Taggnostr> (with a sample of ~1000 pages)
  984. # [13:42] <Philip`_> Taggnostr: Have you tried parsing e.g. a PDF file and seeing if that hits any errors?
  985. # [13:42] <Taggnostr> nope
  986. # [13:43] * Philip`_ vaguely remembers a few difficulties with such files when parsing lots of random pages, though maybe that was just because he hadn't implemented a length limit before then
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  988. # [13:46] <Philip`_> Taggnostr: If you want a larger selection of real-world pages to test, http://www.dotnetdotcom.org/ has something like half a million
  989. # [13:48] <Taggnostr> thanks
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  1000. # [14:26] <zcorpan> hmm. should track bugs be in the texttracks CG component?
  1001. # [14:27] <hsivonen> sigh. http://www.change.org/petitions/microsoft-mozilla-opera-dont-make-webkit-prefixes-a-de-facto-standard
  1002. # [14:29] <zcorpan> we won't. it already is. we'll make it a de jure standard.
  1003. # [14:29] <zcorpan> that page doesn't load for me btw
  1004. # [14:30] <hsivonen> WFM in Opera
  1005. # [14:30] <zcorpan> ah now it loaded
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  1007. # [14:32] <hsivonen> glad to see PPK calls the BS on the call for action
  1008. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> annevk5, so, what do you think about the DOMTokenList / space separated token list thread?
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  1010. # [14:43] <zcorpan> i don't follow how PPK recognizes that the problem lies with prefixes, yet proposes other prefixes
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  1012. # [14:44] <zcorpan> having -alpha-foo, -beta-foo, foo and -webkit-foo seems worse than just foo and -webkit-foo
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  1016. # [14:57] <jgraham> zcorpan: I refer you to what I said ~4h 37m ago
  1017. # [14:58] <jgraham> Which really applies to -anything-, not just -vendor-
  1018. # [15:00] <zcorpan> yeah
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  1029. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> "specs are not magical"
  1030. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> sad but true
  1031. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> I wish they were magical
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  1040. # [15:39] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  1041. # [15:41] <hsivonen> amen to http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120210#l-693
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  1045. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> "This is not a game where the objective is to win independent of the merits of the arguments. This is all about the merits of the arguments."
  1046. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> well said
  1047. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0110.html
  1048. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> that should be put word-for-word into the W3C process doc
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  1050. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> Along with "longdesc is broken, don't waste your and my time on it"
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  1052. # [15:48] <soapyfish> Ahoy!
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  1054. # [15:51] <karlcow> MikeSmith: missing mushrooms?
  1055. # [15:51] <jgraham> I wonder by what factor the number of characters in emails about longdesc attributes outweighs the number of characters of useful text pointed to by longdesc attributes.
  1056. # [15:51] <karlcow> cf http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120210#l-1029 ;)
  1057. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> karlcow: yeah, but I make my own substitutes -- windowpane
  1058. # [15:52] <karlcow> heh
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  1069. # [16:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: it was about sending email for resolved bugs on www-dom
  1070. # [16:19] <annevk> weather in Prague btw is better than expected, as long as you don't go outside for more than ten minutes
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  1072. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: oh so I did that already
  1073. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> I recommend you go for the lulz in your talk
  1074. # [16:21] <jgraham> annevk: So you mean the weather *indoors* in Prauge is better than expected
  1075. # [16:21] <jgraham> ?
  1076. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> Will the talk be recorded?
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  1078. # [16:24] <annevk> I think there might be live broadcast even
  1079. # [16:24] <annevk> not sure though
  1080. # [16:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: cool that it's already done!
  1081. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> "Rorschach test for standardistas" is good
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  1083. # [16:29] <karlcow> Roooarrrschach test even
  1084. # [16:31] <Taggnostr> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tokenization.html#end-tag-open-state links to "tag name state", and "tag name state" includes attributes. Does that mean that <foo></foo some="attr"> is not a parsing error?
  1085. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: that's a parsing error
  1086. # [16:32] * JohnAlbin_ is now known as JohnAlbin
  1087. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: is the default python parser written in python?
  1088. # [16:32] <Taggnostr> MikeSmith, yes
  1089. # [16:33] <Taggnostr> how is that a parsing error?
  1090. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> because it is?
  1091. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> I don't have the spec open
  1092. # [16:33] <Taggnostr> if I follow the page, after </ there's "f", so it's the second entry that redirects to "tag name state"
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  1094. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> but it might help you to read the code of the validator.nu/Mozilla parser
  1095. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> the source
  1096. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> lemme get you a URL
  1097. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> it's an error-reporting parser
  1098. # [16:34] * MikeSmith can't remember if html5lib is error-reporting
  1099. # [16:34] <Philip`_> Taggnostr: I think the error occurs when the tokeniser emits the end tag token
  1100. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: when in doubt I read hsivonen code
  1101. # [16:34] <Philip`_> since the spec says it's an error to emit end tag tokens that have attributes
  1102. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> rather than the spec
  1103. # [16:35] <Taggnostr> Philip`_, is that after the parsing?
  1104. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> I find hsivonen code much easier to follow and it has comments that reference the spec
  1105. # [16:35] <Taggnostr> MikeSmith, I think html5lib is error reporting
  1106. # [16:35] <Philip`_> "When an end tag token is emitted with attributes, that is a parse error." (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#tokenization)
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  1108. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: ok
  1109. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/default/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl is worth perusing
  1110. # [16:36] <Taggnostr> Philip`_, so I should parse all the attributes in the end tag normally, and then simply ignore them and emit only the tag name?
  1111. # [16:37] <Philip`_> The tree construction algorithm never looks at the attributes of an end tag token, so you don't need to actually bother storing them when tokenising
  1112. # [16:37] <Taggnostr> but I have to go through them in order to figure out where the tag ends
  1113. # [16:38] <Philip`_> Yeah, I think you need to at least partially tokenise them, so you can handle </foo bar=">" baz> correctly
  1114. # [16:39] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  1115. # [16:39] <Taggnostr> yep, so in that case I'll just emit a foo, and ignore the rest
  1116. # [16:39] <Philip`_> Storing the attributes then ignoring them later is presumably not going to hurt efficiency in practice (compared to having the tokeniser skip over them without storing anything), because almost nobody puts attributes in end tags in practice
  1117. # [16:40] <Philip`_> but the spec doesn't care how you implement it as long as the visible end result (i.e. the DOM tree) is the same as what the spec says it should be
  1118. # [16:40] <Taggnostr> there's also the case of e.g. </li<ul>, I think this should emit 'li<ul' as token name
  1119. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Indeed
  1120. # [16:41] <Philip`_> By "should", do you mean you think the spec says that, or you think the spec ought to say that?
  1121. # [16:41] <Taggnostr> the python "parser" just does tokenization, it doesn't build the tree
  1122. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> The spec does say that, IIRC
  1123. # [16:41] <Taggnostr> I mean that if I read them correctly that's what I should emit
  1124. # [16:41] * Joins: ksweeney (~Adium@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  1125. # [16:42] <Philip`_> That does seem to be the case
  1126. # [16:43] <Taggnostr> MikeSmith, the code you linked doesn't seem too clear to me
  1127. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: so what does python use for tree building by default?
  1128. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: blame hsivonen
  1129. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> it conforms to the spec anyway
  1130. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> most of the time the spec is very clear
  1131. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> as long as you know where to look
  1132. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> problem is, some of the stuff is kind of spread around in the spec
  1133. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> and once you know where it is it's clear
  1134. # [16:44] <Taggnostr> MikeSmith, there's nothing in the stdlib for that, one option is BeautifulSoup, otherwise there are other alternatives like lxml and html5lib
  1135. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> ah
  1136. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  1137. # [16:44] * Joins: fokker680 (~fokker680@186.19.219.18)
  1138. # [16:44] <Taggnostr> MikeSmith, apparently all that I need is in http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tokenization.html , but with all those states it might get a bit confusing to follow
  1139. # [16:44] <Philip`_> One problem with only doing tokenisation and not building the tree is that it's hard to parse stuff like <script><div></script> properly, since it's not obvious when you should switch to the spec's 'script data state' or whichever state it is
  1140. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: be glad I guess that you don't have to implement tree-building
  1141. # [16:45] * Philip`_ doesn't know whether "hard" means "impossible" or merely "not directly specified"
  1142. # [16:45] <Taggnostr> luckily that's not my problem, for that I would emit a start 'script', a start 'div', and an end 'script'
  1143. # [16:46] <jgraham> Taggnostr: Wow, really?
  1144. # [16:46] <Taggnostr> jgraham, yes
  1145. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> Taggnostr: fwiw seems like you are doing the wise thing by asking here instead of just trying to read teh spec in isolatin
  1146. # [16:46] <Philip`_> What about <circle/><svg><circle/></svg> ?
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  1149. # [16:47] <Taggnostr> iirc <circle/> is seen as start+end, and the default implementation emits a start and an end
  1150. # [16:47] <Taggnostr> so start circle, end circle, start svg, start circle, end circle, end svg
  1151. # [16:48] <Taggnostr> jgraham, why are you surprised?
  1152. # [16:48] <Philip`_> It should be more like start-circle, start-svg, start-circle, end-circle, end-svg, to match what a full HTML5 parser would do
  1153. # [16:48] * Quits: fokker680 (~fokker680@186.19.219.18) (Client Quit)
  1154. # [16:49] <Philip`_> What about <script><!--</script> ? (Should be start-script, text-"<!--", end-script; otherwise some pages will get all of their content slurped into the comment, which is probably undesirable)
  1155. # [16:49] <Taggnostr> I think even <br/> emits start-br, end-br (unless you override the start/end method
  1156. # [16:50] <Taggnostr> that should do the right thing, i.e. read everything between <script> and </script> and emit it as data
  1157. # [16:51] <Philip`_> That makes sense for <br> and <br/>, since they're both equivalent to XML's "<br/>", but <circle/> is equivalent to XML "<circle>" if outside of <svg> etc or equivalent to XML "<circle/>" if inside of <svg> etc
  1158. # [16:51] <Philip`_> so whether it should be treated as self-closing is context dependent
  1159. # [16:52] <Taggnostr> can you elaborate on this a bit?
  1160. # [16:54] <Philip`_> See e.g. http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ccircle%2F%3Ex%3Csvg%3Ey%3Ccircle%2F%3Ez%3C%2Fsvg%3E
  1161. # [16:55] <Philip`_> The "x" is a child of the first circle element, but the "z" is a sibling of the second circle element
  1162. # [16:55] * Joins: jonatasnona (~jonatas@186.207.192.124)
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  1164. # [16:57] <Philip`_> (i.e. "<circle/>x<svg>y<circle/>z</svg>" is equivalent to "<circle>x<svg>y<circle></circle>z</svg>")
  1165. # [16:57] <Taggnostr> I was looking for a dom viewer, this will be useful, thanks!
  1166. # [16:59] <Taggnostr> so the first circle is parsed following the html rules so the / is discarded, whereas inside <svg> an xml parser is used and the / implies a self-closing tag?
  1167. # [16:59] * wookiehangover_ is now known as wookiehangover
  1168. # [17:01] <jgraham> Yes
  1169. # [17:01] <jgraham> Sort of
  1170. # [17:01] <Philip`_> It's not a real XML parser - it's just a different mode in the tree construction algorithm which handles the token's self-closing flag differently
  1171. # [17:01] * Joins: Wilto (u2821@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shwrcxzhtjkmqiwh)
  1172. # [17:01] <Philip`_> (in particularly, by treating the token as self-closing, rather than by ignoring the flag)
  1173. # [17:02] <Philip`_> s/ly//
  1174. # [17:02] <Taggnostr> ok
  1175. # [17:02] <Taggnostr> I wonder why </br> is seen as a <br> whereas <hr> is ignored
  1176. # [17:03] <Taggnostr> is hr gone from html5?
  1177. # [17:03] <Taggnostr> s/<hr>/</hr>/
  1178. # [17:04] <Philip`_> Maybe I'm confusing things since I don't know whether you're aiming to output a properly-nested stream of start/end tokens that correspond to an XML serialisation of the DOM produced by the HTML5 parser (which requires unlimited buffering to do it properly), or a usually-incorrectly-nested stream of tokens that match the HTML5 tokeniser's output (which requires an explicit self-closing flag so consumers can decide how to handle the token in a way tha
  1179. # [17:04] <Philip`_> ...that matches HTML5), or some mixture
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  1181. # [17:04] <jgraham> Don't you use irssi, Philip`_ ?
  1182. # [17:04] <Philip`_> </br> is a special case due to the insanity of HTML
  1183. # [17:04] <Philip`_> jgraham: Yes
  1184. # [17:05] <Taggnostr> I just tokenize and emit tokens as soon as I parse them, I don't build trees and/or keep states
  1185. # [17:05] <jgraham> /load splitlong.pl ?
  1186. # [17:07] <Philip`_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#tree-construction says "↪An end tag whose tag name is "br" Parse error. Act as if a start tag token with the tag name "br" had been seen. Ignore the end tag token."
  1187. # [17:08] <Philip`_> jgraham: That might be convenient
  1188. # [17:13] * Philip`_ can't think of enough to say to test whether it actually works, but assumes it will since it didn't give any error messages or anything, so he conditionally thanks jgraham for the suggestion
  1189. # [17:14] * Ms2ger conditionally thanks Philip`_ for updating his canvas tests
  1190. # [17:14] * Joins: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com)
  1191. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> btw, I think Hixie likes his "no-quirks mode" term
  1192. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> but who knows
  1193. # [17:15] <Philip`_> Ms2ger: warning: conditional expression is constant
  1194. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> sometimes you can't predict when Hixie will change his mind
  1195. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> I like "no-quirks mode" myself
  1196. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, it's a lie, though
  1197. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> "no-quirks mode" has plenty of quirks
  1198. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> many things are a lie
  1199. # [17:16] <Hixie> the problem is "standards mode" is a sillier name :-)
  1200. # [17:16] <Hixie> and "almost-standards" doubly so :-)
  1201. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> heh
  1202. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Because we have no standards?
  1203. # [17:17] <Hixie> if we spec it all, it's all standards mode
  1204. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, please "almost standards"? c'mon
  1205. # [17:18] <Wilto> Something something dating joke.
  1206. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  1207. # [17:18] * Quits: richt_ (richt@nat/opera/x-aqzgpbyztjkknjgn) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  1208. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> Wilto: please hang out here more often
  1209. # [17:18] * AryehGregor votes for "quirks mode", "marginally more quirks mode", and "appreciably more quirks mode"
  1210. # [17:18] <Wilto> I’ll be like the Jar Jar Binks of #whatwg.
  1211. # [17:19] * MikeSmith seconds AryehGregor proposal
  1212. # [17:19] <Wilto> Quirkiness should be measured on a scale of “zero” to “Zooey Deschanel.”
  1213. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, I still hope that "appreciably more quirks mode" will become appreciably less quirky
  1214. # [17:20] <AryehGregor> Me too.
  1215. # [17:20] * Philip`_ was going to suggest "quirks mode", "quirkier mode", "quirkiest mode", but realises that won't be extensible in the future when we discover an even weirder mode that browsers have to be compatible with
  1216. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> Also, removing document.all entirely
  1217. # [17:20] * AryehGregor was also going to, but realized that the first mode would have to be called "quirky mode" instead of "quirks mode" for consistency
  1218. # [17:21] <Philip`_> AryehGregor: The naming inconsistency is just another quirk
  1219. # [17:21] <karlcow> we should pick up the name of modes according to a random selection of insect names
  1220. # [17:25] * Quits: Driekus (~Vuurbal@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl)
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  1222. # [17:28] * Joins: hij1nx_ (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3)
  1223. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> so I started http://platform.html5.org/history/ recently
  1224. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> for anybody who cares to help with the forensics
  1225. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/sideshowbarker/platform.html5.org/tree/master/history
  1226. # [17:30] * Quits: hij1nx_ (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3) (Client Quit)
  1227. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> ara
  1228. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> Do Not Track support in Opera
  1229. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2012/02/10/core-dnt-mail-themes
  1230. # [17:33] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.238.145)
  1231. # [17:33] <karlcow> MikeSmith: well I have to write something about this.
  1232. # [17:33] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-68-203-0-108.austin.res.rr.com)
  1233. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> karlcow: merveilleux
  1234. # [17:33] <karlcow> Because the DNT header on the client side is… peanuts. It's not really the part which matters. And the BIG HUGE battle will be on the server side
  1235. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> yur caps hurts my eyes
  1236. # [17:34] <karlcow> I hope I will take the time this afternoon on ODIN blog http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/
  1237. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> "BIG HUGE" is good those in most context
  1238. # [17:35] <karlcow> MikeSmith: I like to hurt you :p
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  1240. # [17:35] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-112.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  1241. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> on an unrelated note, how do I say "peanut gallery" in your France language?
  1242. # [17:39] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-112-209.dynamic.hinet.net)
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  1244. # [17:39] <PandaZ> jquery
  1245. # [17:39] <PandaZ> oops
  1246. # [17:39] <Ms2ger> Gallerie d'arachide?
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  1254. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> gallery of spiders?
  1255. # [17:49] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  1256. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> No 'n'
  1257. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> dammit why can't France people just use ENGLISH like the rest of the world
  1258. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> I mean it's quaint and amusing
  1259. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> but please
  1260. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> enough is enough
  1261. # [17:50] <karlcow> peanut gallery? which meaning for peanut
  1262. # [17:51] <karlcow> sex or fruits
  1263. # [17:51] * Parts: ksweeney (~Adium@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  1264. # [17:51] <Wilto> Woah, I tuned back in at a weird time.
  1265. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> There are no others
  1266. # [17:51] <karlcow> Wilto: with me, it's always NSFW for americans crowd
  1267. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> karlcow is a sexiste
  1268. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> with the e on the end
  1269. # [17:53] <karlcow> :)
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  1272. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> cf. alcholiste
  1273. # [17:56] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5082A55F.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  1274. # [17:56] <AryehGregor> ARGH.
  1275. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15508
  1276. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: hah
  1277. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> more of the same on the way
  1278. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Ah, CSS
  1279. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
  1280. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> I mean that lots of stuff getting implemented hard and fast these days without much thought about how it should work with existing features
  1281. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> or other proposed features
  1282. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> It's not an implementer here, it's someone from Adobe.
  1283. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> Adobe is an implementor
  1284. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> I mean, maybe Adobe pays some WebKit people, I don't know.
  1285. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> um
  1286. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> For all I know he could work on transforms for WebKit.
  1287. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> I was assuming not, but maybe that was unjustified.
  1288. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> you know who Dirk is, right?
  1289. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> . . . no. :(
  1290. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> ah
  1291. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> well
  1292. # [18:00] * AryehGregor shouldn't make assumptions
  1293. # [18:00] * AryehGregor definitely shouldn't make assumptions in a publicly-logged IRC chat
  1294. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> Dirk's been working on Webkit since before it was Webkit
  1295. # [18:00] <karlcow> "absolutely" and others… are words that I would absolutely bannish.
  1296. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Heh, okay.
  1297. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> My bad.
  1298. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> no
  1299. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> no way to know
  1300. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Well, I could have looked before making assumptions . . .
  1301. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> since we don't record this stuff anywhere
  1302. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> anyway, he knows a thing or two about a thing or two
  1303. # [18:02] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  1304. # [18:03] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Adobe have quite a few people working on WebKit, on stuff like regions.
  1305. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I somewhat knew that.
  1306. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> Should have thought before I spoke.
  1307. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> I think this would be a bad change, but it's not the end of the world.
  1308. # [18:03] * AryehGregor doesn't think CSS transforms should be brought in line with SVG transforms at all
  1309. # [18:05] * Joins: twisted` (~anonymous@p5DDBABA7.dip.t-dialin.net)
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  1311. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> maybe should give up on SVG transforms at all
  1312. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> or whatever they're called
  1313. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> They should be deprecated presentational attributes.
  1314. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> Or not deprecated.
  1315. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> Since SVG is meant for display.
  1316. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> Or whatever.
  1317. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> I don't car.e
  1318. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> care.
  1319. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> But I don't want us complicating CSS to be more compatible with them.
  1320. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Doug and heycam|away and others might not be so keen on that
  1321. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> Which part?
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  1323. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> dropping SVG transforms
  1324. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> I'm being hasty and rash here. I'm tired, and I shouldn't be so vocal just because I'm in a group of like-minded people. I still think the change is a bad one, though.
  1325. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> I don' think SVG actually calls them transforms
  1326. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> Well, obviously keep them for compat.
  1327. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> I think it does, no?
  1328. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> I dunno
  1329. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> don't know it well enugh
  1330. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> but anyway
  1331. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> I think for web author-developers, if they can do something usng CSS, that's what they're going to use
  1332. # [18:10] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1333. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> if they have a CSS way to do it, they don't care if SVG can do it because after all for them them wtf is SVG anyway
  1334. # [18:11] <Wilto> For what it’s worth, yeah, I’ll attest to that.
  1335. # [18:11] <Wilto> Not that there’s any excuse for not keeping up with the New Hotnesses™, but… yeah.
  1336. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> Right, exactly.
  1337. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> People know about CSS but not SVG.
  1338. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> I don't think it's worthwhile to make CSS more similar to SVG, but rather the reverse.
  1339. # [18:12] <Wilto> Right. Not saying I wouldn’t be interested, but the lower the barrier to adoption the better.
  1340. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> I think my disagreement with Dirk is mostly because he has a strong SVG background, and I'm just about at the point where I can make a red circle without having to look stuff up. :)
  1341. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> (except the namespace)
  1342. # [18:12] <Wilto> I put borders on things for a living; I like things to be simple.
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  1348. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> . . . I admit that now I'm getting annoyed at git. Is there really no way to set the default number of context lines for patches?
  1349. # [18:44] <AryehGregor> Also, git doesn't figure out copies.
  1350. # [18:44] <AryehGregor> That's one good thing about hg.
  1351. # [18:44] <AryehGregor> Sigh . . .
  1352. # [18:45] * AryehGregor just hates everything now indiscriminately.
  1353. # [18:46] * dglazkov offers AryehGregor a hug
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  1367. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> I also forgot how it takes at least five minutes to find anything in a git man page, because every command has 200 options, half of them documented by reference to other man pages. Most of which seem gratuitous, insofar as I've never missed them in hg.
  1368. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> The not-tracking-renames thing is very bad when submitting patches to a non-git project. I think for Mozilla, I'll stick to hg.
  1369. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> When in Rome . . .
  1370. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> It's not really nice to submit patches that won't work correctly in hg just because I generated them using git because I don't like hg.
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  1389. # [20:02] <jamesr_> how does 'null' convert to an optional double parameter?
  1390. # [20:03] <jamesr_> someone's passing 'null' in for the maxWidth parameter of canvas2d's fillText(). trying to figure out if IDL says that it's ignored, or if it converts to 0
  1391. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> 0
  1392. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> Er
  1393. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> Or NaN
  1394. # [20:04] * Ms2ger checks
  1395. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> jamesr_, +0
  1396. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> (undefined would be NaN)
  1397. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> And http://es5.github.com/#x9.3 is the relevant spec
  1398. # [20:06] <jamesr_> well
  1399. # [20:06] <jamesr_> the HTML spec says "If maxWidth is present ..."
  1400. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> It is
  1401. # [20:06] <jamesr_> what if you say fillText(..., undefined) ?
  1402. # [20:07] <jamesr_> is it still present, even though the IDL is declared optional?
  1403. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> It is present
  1404. # [20:07] <jamesr_> so wait
  1405. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> Unless
  1406. # [20:07] <jamesr_> if i had a function with parameters (optional double a, optional double b), how the flip do i call it without 'a' being present?
  1407. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing] is on the argument
  1408. # [20:07] * gavin__ is now known as gavin
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  1411. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> You don't
  1412. # [20:07] <jamesr_> void fillText(DOMString text, double x, double y, optional double maxWidth);
  1413. # [20:08] <jamesr_> ok so i'd have to declare it void foo(optional [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing] double a, optional double b) then do foo(undefined, 1.0) ?
  1414. # [20:08] <jamesr_> hmmmmm
  1415. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> You can't omit a if you're passing b
  1416. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> Impossible
  1417. # [20:09] <jamesr_> so now i'm not sure what fillText(..., undefined) should do. the first line of the the fillText algorithm reads "If maxWidth is present but less than or equal to zero, return without doing anything; abort these steps."
  1418. # [20:09] <jamesr_> so if someone passes undefined, that turns into NaN. NaN <= 0 is false, but so is NaN > 0
  1419. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> Ah
  1420. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> But there's a catch-all somewhere
  1421. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> Except where otherwise specified, for the 2D context interface, any method call with a numeric argument whose value is infinite or a NaN value must be ignored.
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  1424. # [20:15] <jamesr_> so what's that mean for null?
  1425. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> null turns into +0
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  1427. # [20:21] <Hixie> jamesr_: (optional double a, optional double b) is just shorthand for declaring three overloaded operations with (), (double a), and (double a, double b) respectively
  1428. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> readonly attribute (DOMString or ArrayBuffer)? result
  1429. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> That works, right?
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  1431. # [20:31] <jamesr_> hm ok
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  1444. # [20:56] * jwalden sees days-ago scrollback talking about Mozilla (?) spewing CSS warnings for vendor-prefixed stuff and is quite sure we don't do that (except if it's a -moz- property we don't recognize), seeing as he implemented it
  1445. # [20:58] <jwalden> well, more day-ago
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  1447. # [21:07] <matjas> hsivonen: can you explain why in old Firefox (3.6) the iframe gets rendered? <style>*{font-family:'</style <iframe onload=alert(1)//';</style>
  1448. # [21:08] <matjas> i understand why `</style` followed by space acts as end tag for the <style> element
  1449. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> matjas, treating the < as part of the tag name is an IEism, Gecko would imply a > when seeing a <
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  1451. # [21:14] <Wilto> So this is where you get your dark and arcane secrets, matjas.
  1452. # [21:14] <matjas> HTML5 parsers seem to discard the iframe in <style>*{font-family:'</style <iframe onload=alert(1)>';</style>
  1453. # [21:15] <matjas> not sure I understand why though
  1454. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> Because it's an attribute in an end tag
  1455. # [21:15] <matjas> i thought </style + space = ETAGO, which would close the element
  1456. # [21:16] <matjas> but it only does so after the >, i see
  1457. # [21:16] <matjas> that makes sense
  1458. # [21:16] <matjas> thanks Ms2ger :)
  1459. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> ETAGO?
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  1465. # [21:24] <matjas> well, </ = etago
  1466. # [21:24] <matjas> and </style and </script followed by a space character, >, or / will close their respective opening tag
  1467. # [21:24] <matjas> i knew that much
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  1565. # [23:17] * Quits: NimeshNeema (u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pzbemlgqklzlfpmd) (Max SendQ exceeded)
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  1570. # [23:32] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-147-206-88.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129161724])
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  1573. # [23:46] <zewt> This webpage has disabled automatic filling for this form. <- yeah, uh, webpages shouldn't be able to do that. heh
  1574. # [23:47] <zewt> This webpage has deliberately inconvenienced you.
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  1578. # Session Close: Sat Feb 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)