/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 14 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:09] <roc> "astral characters" is the dumbest name ever
  6. # [00:10] <roc> except for all the other dumb ones
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  8. # [00:10] <annevk> way to classify :p
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  10. # [00:11] <annevk> nn all
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  14. # [00:12] <kennyluck> we ran into trouble when we tried to localize this term for Firefox.
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  38. # [01:00] <isherman-book> Hixie: Looks like the WhatWG discussion regarding http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Autocomplete_Types has more or less settled into something resembling consensus
  39. # [01:01] <isherman-book> What would you recommend as next steps?
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  41. # [01:13] <rniwa> Hixie: what would be a good step to move undo manager spec on either whatwg or w3c repository?
  42. # [01:14] <rniwa> good steps*
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  44. # [01:24] <Hixie> isherman-book: it's on my list of things to get to in due course
  45. # [01:24] <Hixie> isherman-book: so if "wait" isn't a good answer for you, i guess "implement, convince other vendors to implement, and ship" is probably it :-)
  46. # [01:25] <Hixie> rniwa: you ok maintaining the spec?
  47. # [01:25] <rniwa> Hixie: YES
  48. # [01:25] <rniwa> Hixie: in fact, i'm going to start implementing it in webkit and write tests for it
  49. # [01:25] <Hixie> rniwa: any idea if AryehGregor would be ok with having it under his editing CG?
  50. # [01:25] <rniwa> Hixie: but it's easier for me to convince the webkit community if it were "official"
  51. # [01:26] <rniwa> Hixie: not sure.
  52. # Session Close: Tue Feb 14 01:28:26 2012
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  54. # Session Start: Tue Feb 14 01:28:26 2012
  55. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  59. # [01:29] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  60. # [01:29] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  61. # [01:30] <rniwa> AryehGregor: ping
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  64. # [01:31] <isherman-book> Hixie: Ok, wasn't sure if there was anything I needed to do other than wait
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  68. # [01:32] <Hixie> isherman-book: i'm unfortunately under a lot of backlog
  69. # [01:33] <Hixie> isherman-book: trying to clear that out asap
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  71. # [01:33] <isherman-book> Hixie: no problem :)
  72. # [01:34] <Hixie> oh it's a problem :-)
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  106. # [03:21] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  137. # [05:18] <tantek> hey what's this? http://www.w3.org/community/html5spec/
  138. # [05:19] <tantek> as recently announced: https://twitter.com/#!/w3c/status/169266573192863744
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  216. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> http://dev.webinos.org/specifications/draft/vehicle.html
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  218. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> http://webinos.org/blog/2012/02/08/webinos-demo-series-1-vehicle-api/
  219. # [07:01] <jamesr__> how old is this?
  220. # [07:02] <jamesr__> somebody should tell them about constructors for events
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  223. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> jamesr: from November it seems
  224. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> don't recall having seen that doc discussed anywhere
  225. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> though might have been in Device APIs WG
  226. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> this is from some kind of EU/EC project I guess
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  232. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> oh man
  233. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> http://dev.webinos.org/specifications/draft/events.html
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  305. # [11:35] <remysharp> Is it defined anywhere that elements with IDs should become global variables on the window with the same name?
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  307. # [11:35] <remysharp> I know browsers still do it, but I wasn't sure if it was part of any spec or if it should never be relied on (I generally keep away from relying on it)
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  310. # [11:39] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#named-access-on-the-window-object
  311. # [11:40] <roc> Gecko doesn't do it in standards mode
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  313. # [11:43] <zcorpan> roc: what mode? you mean no-quirks mode? you're not making sense! (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15950 )
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  315. # [11:44] <roc> it's late, can you give me some kind of sarcasm emoticon?
  316. # [11:44] <zcorpan> sorry, </sarcasm>
  317. # [11:45] <roc> thanks, just checking
  318. # [11:45] <remysharp> zcorpan: okay, so technically it's totally legit - I had assumed for a long time that it was just a dirty thing browser (read: IE) did
  319. # [11:45] <roc> it is a dirty thing
  320. # [11:45] <remysharp> no doubt about that
  321. # [11:45] <roc> zcorpan: in that bug, you should accuse Hixie of ignoring reality
  322. # [11:46] <remysharp> confuses the hell out of folk I teach as to why their code works, yet the variable wasn't declared
  323. # [11:46] <zcorpan> roc: feel free to comment on the bug
  324. # [11:46] <remysharp> then they go asking me why did I declare the variable if it's already there...
  325. # [11:46] <roc> I'm fighting enough battles at the moment, thanks
  326. # [11:46] <zcorpan> remysharp: it's not totally legit since browsers are considering limiting it to quirks mode
  327. # [11:46] <roc> remysharp: "so it'll work in Firefox"
  328. # [11:47] <remysharp> zcorpan: good stuff. that makes me feel like it's a little more sane
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  331. # [11:51] <jgraham> remysharp: Oh, well I'm sure you will be dissuaded of that notion soon
  332. # [11:52] <remysharp> jgraham: aye, I never expect to feel sane about how browsers do things for longer than a couple of hours. Otherwise I'd just be mismanaging my expectations :)
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  635. # [13:23] <Taggnostr> jgraham, thanks for the code! I haven't tried it yet, but I'll try to find some time to take a look
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  638. # [13:24] <jgraham> Taggnostr: np. We should probably ship something like that with html5lib
  639. # [13:24] <Taggnostr> the award for the broken markup of the day goes to: <img width=902 height=250px src="/sites/default/files/images/homepage/ISL_cordless_902X250.jpg" /*qui manca alt--capire*/ />
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  642. # [13:25] <Taggnostr> that "comment" means "/*here alt is missing--understand*/"
  643. # [13:26] <Taggnostr> probably they asked someone to validate the page and he didn't even know how to write an html comment and wasn't even smart enough to figure out what the error that the validator gives means
  644. # [13:26] <Taggnostr> so he left a js comment in the middle of the tag as a remainder
  645. # [13:27] <bga> where is get lastest chromium? anyone from google plz answer me
  646. # [13:27] <bga> http://build.chromium.org/f/chromium/snapshots/Win_Webkit_Latest/
  647. # [13:27] <bga> is bit outdated
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  658. # [13:40] <myakura> bga: http://download-chromium.appspot.com/ will help you.
  659. # [13:40] <myakura> (I'm not a Googler though.)
  660. # [13:42] <bga> myakura thanks
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  666. # [13:48] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0083.html o_O
  667. # [13:48] <annevk> if that passes
  668. # [13:48] <annevk> lol
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  694. # [14:47] <bga> gsnedders are you here?
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  782. # [16:36] <annevk> man why are [ and ] not allowed in the frigging query component in URLs?
  783. # [16:36] <annevk> that's nonsense
  784. # [16:37] <ksweeney> or the domain? I would love http://[][][][][][][].com
  785. # [16:37] <ksweeney> :D
  786. # [16:37] <annevk> the difference is that does not even work, whereas putting them elsewhere works perfectly fine
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  805. # [16:52] <annevk> abarth: you around?
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  809. # [16:52] <annevk> abarth: should CORS require Origin:null or Origin:<chain of origins>?
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  812. # [16:52] <annevk> abarth: would have been better if the Origin RFC decided on this :(
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  817. # [16:53] <annevk> abarth: if you're not around I'll prolly check in "null"
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  821. # [16:53] <annevk> Velmont: ^^
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  831. # [17:25] <annevk> haven't heard anything from ALA in years, suddenly two articles
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  833. # [17:31] <annevk> whoa Zurich is now more expensive than Oslo or Tokyo
  834. # [17:31] <annevk> http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/02/daily-chart-7
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  871. # Session Close: Tue Feb 14 18:50:46 2012
  872. #
  873. # Session Start: Tue Feb 14 18:50:46 2012
  874. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  878. # [18:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  879. # [18:51] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  1170. # [19:07] <[tm]> annevk: +1 to the Recovering from XML Community Support Group
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  1182. # [19:19] * Effilry is now known as FireFly
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  1184. # [19:20] <[tm]> "the main reason is that from the beginning we (the XML crowd) have been arrogant, over confident and have made a significant design error."
  1185. # [19:22] <othermaciej> where's that quote from?
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  1196. # [19:24] <StoneCypher> othermaciej: http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/
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  1211. # [19:34] <[tm]> "we have been proven wrong and that HTML has been enough to scale up to the amazing applications we see today."
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  1277. # [20:49] <annevk> http://blog.ioactive.com/2012/02/ssl-traffic-analysis-on-google-maps.html is pretty interesting
  1278. # [20:49] <annevk> would SPDY make that more complicated because it all becomes a single stream?
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  1285. # [21:00] <Hixie> annevk: only if you were actually using more than just google maps at a time, as far as i can tell
  1286. # [21:00] <Hixie> annevk: if i understand correctly, the only real solution is to pad all requests and responses and make them on a strict schedule
  1287. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: hard core encrypted channels just send continual noise at the max bandwidth and when they want to send data they replace the noise with the data
  1288. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: assuming a good encryption algorithm, my understanding is that you then can't tell what's being sent
  1289. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: of course you can still tell a lot e.g. that there is a connection, so that both sides exist, which is an issue e.g. in war situations
  1290. # [21:02] <Hixie> abarth would know more
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  1296. # [21:14] <annevk> sounds pretty fascinating
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  1299. # [21:21] <annevk> I wonder when w3.org will go TLS-only
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  1303. # [21:31] <abarth> traffic analysis is really hard to defeat
  1304. # [21:31] <abarth> at least without cover traffic
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  1308. # [21:31] <Hixie> isn't it essentially impossible without cover traffic?
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  1313. # [21:44] <annevk> Microsoft research paper writes "XmlHttpRequest" o_O
  1314. # [21:45] <abarth> Hixie: i try not to say "impossible" :)
  1315. # [21:45] <Hixie> fair enough
  1316. # [21:45] <abarth> i think Tor tries to defeat traffic analysis without cover traffic
  1317. # [21:45] <abarth> but it's unclear how successful they are
  1318. # [21:46] <Hixie> don't they use other people's traffic as cover traffic?
  1319. # [21:46] <abarth> aren't you the one who says "the impossible just takes longer?"
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  1321. # [21:46] <Hixie> i mean it's not as good as a continuous stream, but...
  1322. # [21:46] <abarth> Hixie: yes, they mix traffic from multiple sources, but they have problems because that traffic can be removed statistically
  1323. # [21:46] <abarth> its more like noise
  1324. # [21:47] <Hixie> wow, interesting
  1325. # [21:47] <abarth> so, then you get into shaping the traffic by adding queues and delays
  1326. # [21:47] <abarth> etc
  1327. # [21:47] <abarth> there's a whole literature about it
  1328. # [21:47] <Hixie> i'm sure
  1329. # [21:49] <annevk> is it even possible to design a system that does not have these flaws?
  1330. # [21:49] <annevk> can you measure anything other than amount of data?
  1331. # [21:51] <Hixie> timing
  1332. # [21:51] <annevk> oh, how fast the connection is? how often requests are made, etc?
  1333. # [21:52] <Hixie> for example, if a site sends a ping every 2s in one mode and a ping every 2.5s in another mode, even if they're the same size, you can tell which mode the app is in
  1334. # [21:52] <Hixie> just by looking at when the packets are sent
  1335. # [21:52] <annevk> I guess that can tell you quite a bit
  1336. # [21:52] <Hixie> the general topic here is called "side channel attacks".
  1337. # [21:52] <Hixie> q.v. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_channel_attack
  1338. # [21:53] <Hixie> power consumption is another one that that page mentions
  1339. # [21:53] <annevk> that is, size plus timing seem like vectors that will turn out to be pretty unique
  1340. # [21:53] <Hixie> e.g. you can tell what's going on based on how much power you are pulling -- if it's just idling, it'll use less power than if it's doing heavy computation
  1341. # [21:54] <Hixie> also in the case of TLS communication on the web there's things like DNS requests, the IP address of the communication's destination, etc
  1342. # [21:55] <Hixie> e.g. you can tell if someone is logging in on big sites because they get redirected through a separate login service
  1343. # [21:56] <Hixie> even if the data is mixed in with noise like i was suggesting earlier, you can also learn things by watching what happens if you flip random bits in the stream
  1344. # [21:56] <Hixie> since the receiving end might just discard the noise rather than verify that it wasn't tampered with
  1345. # [21:56] <Hixie> (encryption typically avoids this, q.v. integrity)
  1346. # [21:57] <Hixie> encryption systems, i should say
  1347. # [21:57] <Hixie> encryption itself doesn't
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  1406. # [23:12] * Quits: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-tzswmylourpgpyiq) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1407. # [23:13] * Joins: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-nsoayclkpxconsaa)
  1408. # [23:14] <gsnedders> bga: I am here now, if at all relevant.
  1409. # [23:15] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1410. # [23:16] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  1411. # [23:17] <_bga> gsnedders i tried to hack js. Add Proxy object that throw error is property is undefined instead silent null value before Object but failed because engines isnt ready to such tricks
  1412. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1413. # [23:18] <_bga> chrome just stop working, ff fall to recursion
  1414. # [23:19] * Quits: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox)
  1415. # [23:19] <gsnedders> bga: My brain can't parse what you just said.
  1416. # [23:21] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  1417. # [23:22] <_bga> i changed fundamental behavour. in js {}.foo == undefined but i do Object.prototype.__proto__ = some proxy object. so now {}.foo throw 'Getting unexisting property'
  1418. # [23:22] <_bga> understand?
  1419. # [23:22] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYMMCCLX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1420. # [23:22] <_bga> i try to make js safer
  1421. # [23:23] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYMMCCLX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
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  1424. # [23:25] <gsnedders> _bga: Ah.
  1425. # [23:25] <gsnedders> _bga: Object.prototype.__proto__ is not like __proto__ on anything else in SpiderMonkey, IIRC.
  1426. # [23:25] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@66.207.208.98)
  1427. # [23:26] <gsnedders> (Though quite what its semantics is I am unsure.)
  1428. # [23:26] * Quits: matijsb (u2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wrdzdbxkgrnuggsm)
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  1430. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Not really surprising that trying to mutate the Object prototype object's prototype doesn't work.
  1431. # [23:28] <_bga> Object.prototype.__proto__ = {a: 1, __proto__: null}; ({}).a == 1 work in v8 too
  1432. # [23:30] <_bga> but main idea that new apis open such abilities so engines will be ready
  1433. # [23:33] <_bga> iirc opera's String#concat work incorrectly w/ deleted toString/valueOf
  1434. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Shouldn't as of 11.60
  1435. # [23:38] <isherman> tantek: You previously expressed some technical concerns about http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Autocomplete_Types on Google+. Wanted to check, have your concerns been addressed by renaming the tokens to match hCard where possible?
  1436. # [23:38] <_bga> gsnedders btw what your opinion? is js should move to full dynamic (lisp way) or static ?
  1437. # [23:38] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1438. # [23:39] <_bga> i guess - js was born as dynamic and should move to better dynamic
  1439. # [23:39] <gsnedders> _bga: Dynamic what?
  1440. # [23:40] * mbatle` is now known as mbatle
  1441. # [23:40] <gsnedders> _bga: Dynamic typing?
  1442. # [23:41] <_bga> runtime access to local hash table of vars (prototyped chained), object has many prototypes, instance eval
  1443. # [23:41] <_bga> runtime access to stack
  1444. # [23:41] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-rwfyzdkcardbkljq)
  1445. # [23:42] <gsnedders> _bga: Okay, in the sense of it being a dynamic language.
  1446. # [23:42] <_bga> make stack[stack.length - 1].locals.a = 1 possible
  1447. # [23:42] <gsnedders> _bga: On the whole I like the balance it has now.
  1448. # [23:43] <gsnedders> Proxies I'm still on the fence about whether I think they're a good idea, because they have the same semantic issues as host objects can (e.g., [[HasProperty]] and [[GetProperty]] may not match up).
  1449. # [23:45] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-112.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  1450. # [23:45] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  1451. # [23:47] <_bga> i can not balance between dynamic and static world. one my ego like full dynamic for experiments, other my ego want extreme static for real use
  1452. # [23:49] <gsnedders> _bga: Runtime access to stack used to be possible in SpiderMonkey (through __scope__, I think it was called) and arguments.caller (so arguments.caller.__scope__, for example).
  1453. # [23:53] <_bga> hm
  1454. # [23:54] <_bga> bad that is dont work anymore
  1455. # [23:56] <gsnedders> _bga: Stuff like that is hell for performance given dynamic typing, though
  1456. # [23:56] <gsnedders> _bga: You get any TC for concat with deleted toString/valueOf?
  1457. # [23:57] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@71.109-247-163.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1458. # [23:57] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@71.109-247-163.customer.lyse.net)
  1459. # [23:58] <_bga> now work corectly
  1460. # [23:58] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1461. # [23:59] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.90.122)
  1462. # Session Close: Wed Feb 15 00:00:00 2012

The end :)