/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 17 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [00:53] <annevk> le sigh
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  25. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> le un atre shitstorm
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  27. # [01:14] <[tm]> on the plus side, let's note how bitchin irssi connectbot for Android is
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  149. # [09:45] <zcorpan> i removed outline-color from quirks mode, based on research (documented in the source)
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  151. # [09:52] <annevk> "The script tag specifies a checksum calculated using a cryptographic hash function."
  152. # [09:52] <annevk> should be a FAQ entry for that one
  153. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> made some more updates http://platform.html5.org/history/
  154. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> now I stop for beer
  155. # [09:56] <annevk> wise choice
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  157. # [09:56] <annevk> if it was not 10AM I might join you
  158. # [10:04] <asmodai> Whoever is responsible for the new release note pages of Firefox, I like it: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/10.0.2/releasenotes/
  159. # [10:04] <asmodai> Very clear to look at, as both user and dev.
  160. # [10:05] <annevk> argh
  161. # [10:05] <annevk> why does Julian not simply read the original thread
  162. # [10:06] <asmodai> annevk: By the way, do you know if Opera mobile will use some persistent state storage at some point on Android devices?
  163. # [10:06] <asmodai> annevk: i.e. to restore tabs when the app gets pushed out of memory.
  164. # [10:07] <annevk> I don't really know anything about that I'm afraid
  165. # [10:08] <annevk> we should though :)
  166. # [10:08] <asmodai> annevk: Should I file a bug report?
  167. # [10:08] <annevk> yeah sure
  168. # [10:14] <asmodai> ANDMEX-6344 it is
  169. # [10:32] <zcorpan> hmm, 'size' shows up quite a bit. wonder if they meant 'font-size' or the paged media property
  170. # [10:33] <asmodai> Firefox' save complete page ought to duplicate the entire visual aspect of a page, right?
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  188. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> "Working for Opera, Anne was probably the only real representative of the web community at this conference." seems to be overstating things a bit
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  196. # [12:06] <annevk> the mutation observer stuff is really quite good
  197. # [12:06] <annevk> just needs some more markup and a bit of rephrasing
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  212. # [13:46] <Velmont> So... How does this spec thing really work, -- the IDB bugs I've been littering the bug tracker with, - the once that are agreed OK'd, who is supposed to update them? One of the editors I guess, -- but can I poke people directly in a way?
  213. # [13:46] <annevk> you can email the editors
  214. # [13:46] <annevk> i'd give them at least a few weeks though
  215. # [13:47] <annevk> unless it's important to settle it soonish
  216. # [13:47] <Velmont> Ok. :P
  217. # [13:47] <Velmont> Not really. I'm just impatient :P
  218. # [13:52] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  219. # [13:53] <Velmont> WAAT! searching for xhr2, the first result is no longer the spec. Actually... It isn't on the first page of google at all :-(
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  223. # [13:57] <jdalton> wondering if anyone has stats on the average number of html tags used on web sites
  224. # [13:58] <bga_> ask google
  225. # [13:58] <bga_> :)
  226. # [13:58] <Velmont> I hate that the ECMA-262 is a PDF-file. I just want to look up stuff, not download that big document all the time. >:-(
  227. # [13:59] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  228. # [14:00] <annevk> Velmont: http://es5.github.com/
  229. # [14:00] <annevk> Velmont: search for XHR
  230. # [14:00] <Velmont> annevk: Ah, how beautiful. -- Maybe the specs could now link directly also ;-)
  231. # [14:00] <annevk> Velmont: but even then you are mislead
  232. # [14:00] <annevk> misled
  233. # [14:01] <annevk> as it gives TR/
  234. # [14:01] <annevk> Google should really learn to read the email archives and based on that demote TR/ links as people do not value them
  235. # [14:01] <Velmont> Yep. All this extra clicking. :-/
  236. # [14:02] <Velmont> Well, we could just sync TR often...
  237. # [14:02] <annevk> haha, tell that to the W3C webmaster
  238. # [14:04] <Velmont> I mean, -- since everyone with a sane mind is supposed to use the dev versions, -- why is there another one at all? I think that strange.
  239. # [14:04] <jgraham> W3C is very strange
  240. # [14:04] <Velmont> Who wants the always out of date one?
  241. # [14:05] <annevk> ye olde guard
  242. # [14:05] <jgraham> Apparently some people critically depend on being out of date. These people are always shadowy and mysterious and rarely speak for themselves.
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  245. # [14:08] <matjas> perhaps the data that was used when the most popular classnames were researched (and some HTML5 element names were decided) would be useful for jdalton… anyone got a link?
  246. # [14:08] <kennyluck> I honestly don't understand when people link to TR drafts. Where do people find those links? From the W3C site?
  247. # [14:08] <jgraham> From Google probably
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  249. # [14:09] <Velmont> kennyluck: Google. I'm constantly at TR.
  250. # [14:09] <jdalton> word
  251. # [14:09] <jgraham> It often links me to TR/
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  253. # [14:09] <Velmont> Google is hurting standards.
  254. # [14:09] <Velmont> :P
  255. # [14:09] <annevk> hg diff is pretty terrible for https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/e47f190a2bfb :(
  256. # [14:09] <jgraham> Then I have to do a special dance of rage to end up at dev.w3.org
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  260. # [14:11] <Velmont> Anyway. Also, since I'm in a point out stuff-mood; why-o-why is there Hardware and OS in the W3C bugtracker? I don't see how that could ever be relevant to specs. -- version field is also a bit strange, but I can at least see that it can be used in some specs.
  261. # [14:12] <annevk> maybe that's hardcoded by bugzilla?
  262. # [14:12] <annevk> and there's some software projects that use bugzilla
  263. # [14:13] <annevk> W3C Bugzilla*
  264. # [14:13] <Velmont> Could be. Although I think the w3c bugzilla is quite nicely set up and easy to use. -- So it feels like an omission that those fields are there still.
  265. # [14:14] <annevk> could ask Mike
  266. # [14:14] <annevk> tomorrow that is
  267. # [14:14] <annevk> or tonight
  268. # [14:18] <Philip`> jdalton: Total number of tags, or number of distinct tag names?
  269. # [14:19] <jdalton> tags in general
  270. # [14:19] <jdalton> (number of tags)
  271. # [14:19] <[tm]> i don't know if there's any way to remove those in config of the bugzilla version we are running
  272. # [14:19] <Philip`> jdalton: You could sum all the numbers from http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-total.txt and divide by the number of pages (130K) if you want a mean
  273. # [14:21] <jdalton> cool thanks
  274. # [14:21] <Philip`> (Mean isn't necessarily highly representative though, since there might be a few pages that each have hundreds of thousands of tags)
  275. # [14:21] <jdalton> wow perfect thanks!
  276. # [14:22] <jdalton> sure but in general
  277. # [14:22] <jdalton> imma making a benchmark for using css expressions
  278. # [14:22] <jdalton> and wanted to know a good average page size
  279. # [14:22] <jdalton> this is great cuz its targeted per element
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  292. # [14:54] <Velmont> Is there a way to get all comments and stuff from e.g. indexeddb bugs in w3c tracker?
  293. # [14:55] <Velmont> I've made a search, which I'm using. And I'm getting new bugs (from the mailing list), but not comments on bugs I'm not watching.
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  298. # [15:06] <annevk> Velmont: also ask MikeSmith when he's around
  299. # [15:06] <annevk> Velmont: he can probably set something up if there's nothing
  300. # [15:09] <[tm]> I'm here but on my mobile so typing limited
  301. # [15:09] <annevk> it's too late to be here man :p
  302. # [15:09] <annevk> oh, it's only 11PM
  303. # [15:10] <annevk> I guess there was some time zone change
  304. # [15:10] <[tm]> i love you guys so much i can't bear to be apart
  305. # [15:10] <Velmont> :p
  306. # [15:12] <[tm]> on my second chu-hai waiting for effects to kick in
  307. # [15:12] <annevk> no shōchū?
  308. # [15:13] <[tm]> probably need about two more at least for the good vibrations to start flowing
  309. # [15:13] <[tm]> at karaoke place
  310. # [15:13] <annevk> at the corner?
  311. # [15:13] <[tm]> no good shochu here
  312. # [15:14] <annevk> wish I was there, sounds like fun :)
  313. # [15:14] <[tm]> annevk: different place
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  316. # [15:15] <[tm]> not quite as funky as that corner place
  317. # [15:16] <[tm]> dude
  318. # [15:17] <[tm]> i got banned from fungo
  319. # [15:17] <[tm]> they don't like me passing out at the bar
  320. # [15:17] <[tm]> or something
  321. # [15:19] <annevk> actual lol here
  322. # [15:19] <annevk> hahaha
  323. # [15:19] <annevk> no kidding man
  324. # [15:19] <annevk> they're too expensive anyway
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  339. # [16:00] <annevk> Ms2ger: what is that IDL bug report about?
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  354. # [16:56] <zcorpan> <a style="{color: blue; background: d9eafe}:visited {color: green}
  355. # [16:56] <zcorpan> awesome
  356. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> DIdn't we have a CSS spec at some point that allowed that?
  357. # [16:58] <zcorpan> yeah i recall something also
  358. # [16:58] <zcorpan> oh the search is finished already
  359. # [16:59] <zcorpan> that was quick, the other regexes i've run took a lot longer
  360. # [16:59] <charlvn> zcorpan: where the heck did you find that?!
  361. # [16:59] * Joins: drublic_ (~drublic@frbg-5f731ea3.pool.mediaWays.net)
  362. # [16:59] <zcorpan> charlvn: dotnetdotcom's web200904
  363. # [17:00] <charlvn> :D
  364. # [17:00] <charlvn> nice
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  369. # [17:03] <StoneCypher> that's very neat, but inline styles are still the devil
  370. # [17:03] <zcorpan> $ grep -iaPo "<[a-z]+\s[^>]*style\s*=\s*[\"']{[^\"'>]+" web200904 > style-braces.txt
  371. # [17:03] <zcorpan> 6556 matches
  372. # [17:04] <zcorpan> seems like we should support that quirk huh
  373. # [17:04] <StoneCypher> horns, cloven hooves, barbed tail
  374. # [17:04] <zewt> out-of-line styles are the devil for a lot of locally isolated styles
  375. # [17:05] <StoneCypher> war of opinions! (deploys AA guns to western border)
  376. # [17:05] <StoneCypher> MY SIDE HAS BETTER UNIFORMS
  377. # [17:05] <zewt> my side has more readable source
  378. # [17:05] <StoneCypher> :(
  379. # [17:06] <StoneCypher> fine, mister legitimate arguments
  380. # [17:06] <StoneCypher> my side has better modularity and easier long term maintenance
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  382. # [17:07] <StoneCypher> and better uniforms
  383. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> Wow, transitions are way more complicated than transforms.
  384. # [17:08] <zewt> my side has less modularity-for-the-sake of it and much easier long term maintenance (the amount of time I've spent jumping around source files to find things that are separated out for no more reason than "someone said it should always be this way and he sounded like he knew what he was talking about")
  385. # [17:09] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Is that your version of "good morning whatwg"?
  386. # [17:09] <jgraham> You have started saying it regularly every day
  387. # [17:10] <zewt> right on the hour, no less
  388. # [17:10] <zewt> today, at least :P
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  391. # [17:16] <AryehGregor> jgraham, well, maybe for now. :)
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  397. # [17:39] <annevk> oh
  398. # [17:39] <annevk> it seems removing isSameNode was successful after all
  399. # [17:39] <annevk> yay
  400. # [17:40] <annevk> hopefully next week I can finally work on encodings again
  401. # [17:41] <annevk> is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/StringEncoding only discussed by the Kronos guys?
  402. # [17:41] <annevk> khronos
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  404. # [17:43] <jgraham> Oh, adding character encoding related MAYs to the platform. Lovely.
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  406. # [17:46] <annevk> i hope it's not happening like arraybuffer
  407. # [17:49] <annevk> "If <mediatype> is omitted, it defaults to text/plain;charset=US-ASCII."
  408. # [17:49] <annevk> " As a shorthand, "text/plain" can be omitted but the charset parameter supplied."
  409. # [17:49] <annevk> hmm
  410. # [17:50] <annevk> that seems buggy in Opera
  411. # [17:50] <annevk> data:;charset=hz-gb-2312,~~
  412. # [17:51] <annevk> it's not really a good spec, but the intent is clear, sort of
  413. # [17:51] <annevk> that should give a single ~
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  417. # [17:54] <annevk> that is now CORE-44654 in case anyone cares
  418. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Can't see that, I'm afraid
  419. # [17:55] * GlitchMr42 is now known as GlitchMr
  420. # [17:55] <jgraham> Needs a longdesc
  421. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> Pff
  422. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> I used to use longdesc correctly
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  424. # [17:58] <Philip`> I always use longdesc correctly, since the correct way is to not use it
  425. # [17:58] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Easy here <bug src="http://bugs.opera.com/browse/CORE-44654" longdesc="http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120217#l-407">
  426. # [17:58] <annevk> someone should write a new data URL spec maybe
  427. # [17:58] * Ms2ger hears a volunteer
  428. # [17:58] <jgraham> What's wrong with the existing one?
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  430. # [17:59] <annevk> somewhat vague
  431. # [17:59] <annevk> and it is missing http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#data:-urls-and-http
  432. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> Let's rewrite all the somewhat vague specs
  433. # [17:59] <annevk> it's on my future todo list
  434. # [17:59] <annevk> URL / MIME
  435. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> Once your current todo list is finished? :)
  436. # [18:00] <annevk> more likely when I get bored with the current one
  437. # [18:00] <annevk> but ideally yes
  438. # [18:00] * Ms2ger opens his calendar on 2047
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  441. # [18:02] <annevk> e.g. if you have data:;trala:test
  442. # [18:02] <annevk> what happens?
  443. # [18:03] <annevk> sorry
  444. # [18:03] <annevk> data:;trala,test
  445. # [18:03] <annevk> per RFC that should fail
  446. # [18:03] <annevk> it does in no browser however
  447. # [18:05] <annevk> and what does "As a shorthand, "text/plain" can be omitted but the charset parameter supplied." mean?
  448. # [18:05] <annevk> is that even English?
  449. # [18:08] <annevk> whoa inbox 212
  450. # [18:08] <annevk> and it's weekend
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  456. # [18:26] <annevk> DOM is still under 50 pages
  457. # [18:27] <annevk> cannot get HTML print previewed
  458. # [18:27] <Philip`> annevk: I believe it is valid English, though I couldn't explain why
  459. # [18:27] <annevk> can you explain what it means?
  460. # [18:28] <Philip`> "As a shorthand, you can omit "text/plain" but supply the charset parameter"
  461. # [18:28] <annevk> e.g. if you specify data:;foo=bar,test what happens then?
  462. # [18:29] <annevk> <mediatype> is not exactly omitted then, but charset is not supplied either
  463. # [18:31] <Philip`> That doesn't sound like an instance of the specified shorthand, since it doesn't supply the charset parameter, so it's not allowed by that sentence
  464. # [18:31] <annevk> but it's allowed by the syntax
  465. # [18:33] <Philip`> In that case it sounds like it'd be good for the spec to be more precise about it
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  472. # [18:43] <zewt> annevk: i wouldn't call that valid english, no
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  475. # [18:45] <asmodai> annevk: It's English, but it assumes a lot/infers a lot implicitly.
  476. # [18:45] <zewt> it makes my native parser go "the charset parameter supplied what?"
  477. # [18:46] <asmodai> zewt: true, and calling it shorthand is just crude tbh
  478. # [18:46] <asmodai> If this is for a spec's text *shudder*
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  480. # [18:52] <annevk> it's from http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2397
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  482. # [18:54] <smaug____> Ms2ger: what is http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Node-cloneNode.html about
  483. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> Cloning nodes?
  484. # [18:54] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  485. # [18:55] <smaug____> Ms2ger: but the document cloning
  486. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> That's what the spec... used to say?
  487. # [18:56] <smaug____> Ms2ger: really?
  488. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> annevk, why does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-clone set node-document to null?
  489. # [18:57] <smaug____> IIRC support for document cloning was added to gecko because acid3 required it
  490. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> smaug____, I think we couldn't clone doctypes or something like that?
  491. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Could you file a bug?
  492. # [18:58] <annevk> Ms2ger: I guess it should be set to itself
  493. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> I think so, yes
  494. # [18:58] <annevk> we probably changed it one place but not the other
  495. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> Anyway, I'm off for the weekend
  496. # [18:58] <annevk> so it should be set to /copy/
  497. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> See y'all
  498. # [18:59] <annevk> i'll fix that
  499. # [18:59] <annevk> have fun
  500. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  503. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> . . . what do arguments beyond the first two do when passed to setTimeout?
  504. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> MDN and HTML both document the extra parameters, but don't say what they do.
  505. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> It's an extra param passed to the function?
  506. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Seems so.
  507. # [19:04] <gavin> yeah
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  509. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> But IE doesn't support it, so the cross-browser way is setTimeout(f.bind(null, param1, param2, ...), timeout).
  510. # [19:05] <annevk> AryehGregor: "calls the Function with as its arguments the third and subsequent arguments to the invoked method (if any)"
  511. # [19:05] <annevk> from HTML
  512. # [19:05] <annevk> it's not universally implemented afaik
  513. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> Oh, it doesn't mention the "args" argument by name.
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  542. # [21:00] <aklein> annevk: style/consistency/markup changes to mutation observers look great
  543. # [21:01] <aklein> annevk: especially the dom intro box around the MutationRecord stuff
  544. # [21:02] <annevk> thanks
  545. # [21:02] <annevk> I'll look into your email later and make some further changes
  546. # [21:03] <annevk> what I meant btw was that at the end of "Mutation observation algorithms" there's "add a transient observer"
  547. # [21:03] <annevk> which does not really seem needed
  548. # [21:03] <annevk> it's only used once so you might as well define that in place
  549. # [21:04] <annevk> and it doesn't use the "transient observer" shortcut that was defined earlier
  550. # [21:04] <annevk> which I found a bit weird
  551. # [21:06] <annevk> anyway, back to Taxi Driver
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  557. # [21:37] <aklein> annevk: ah, I see. yeah, I agree that's probably not needed (though depending on how we spec the remove all mutation, it may get one more reference)
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  561. # [21:48] <annevk> k
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  567. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> There's an IE bug tracking the setTimeout thing, triggered by a demo of mine. ^_^
  568. # [22:13] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You know, that sentence would have been more illuminating if there was something more substantial in place of the word "thing". A noun for example.
  569. # [22:15] <_bga> http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/383665_10150462880131136_395391936135_10704089_241975421_n.jpg
  570. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Or you could, you know, look upward a few inches and see Aryeh talking about a setTimeout feature not being supported in IE.
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  572. # [22:20] <annevk> aklein: how about instead of "dispatch" we name those "queue a TYPE record"?
  573. # [22:21] <annevk> aklein: because nothing is actually dispatched like events are
  574. # [22:22] <annevk> aklein: and just to be sure in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-mutation-dispatch-attributes you actually mean "run them for the next *registered* observer" right?
  575. # [22:22] <annevk> because observer is something else (somewhat unfortunate, but I cannot think of better terms either)
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  577. # [22:34] <smaug____> yeah, I don't like using word dispatch with mutationobserver
  578. # [22:34] <smaug____> annevk: queue ... sounds better
  579. # [22:35] <annevk> problem with queue is that HTML uses it for tasks
  580. # [22:35] <annevk> but queue record is prolly good enough, and it's quite related to tasks after all
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  591. # [23:11] <aklein> annevk: queue sounds great to me, this is another case of a method name leaking into the spec
  592. # [23:11] <aklein> annevk: and yeah, that was just a lack of precision, it's the next "registered observer"
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  600. # [23:28] <annevk> made those changes
  601. # [23:28] <annevk> might make some more tomorrow including changes to the organization of the section
  602. # [23:29] <annevk> but starts to look pretty good I think; went quicker than expected thanks to all the effort you had put in already
  603. # [23:31] <annevk> eight months after http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/06/mutation
  604. # [23:31] <annevk> though the idea of replacing them has been around a little longer
  605. # [23:32] <aklein> we stumbled onto the idea due to nudging from ojan
  606. # [23:33] <aklein> ideally it would've gone faster, but given that it was my first significant addition to DOM-space I'm glad to see it at least in motion
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  610. # Session Close: Sat Feb 18 00:00:00 2012

The end :)