/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 21 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> gwicke: i don't understand why you are caring about schema.org if not for search engines
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> gwicke: why schema.org and not any of the other six gazillion vocabularies out there?
  5. # [00:00] <gwicke> I use schema.org mostly as an illustration
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> ok let's please stick to concrete problems because if we're going to start fixing sample problems as well we'll be here all day :-)
  7. # [00:01] <gwicke> aye ;)
  8. # [00:03] <gwicke> in general, we would like to add one or more additional itemtypes to an item, where each might only include a subset of the itemprops in the main itemtype
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> ok but why???
  10. # [00:03] <Hixie> give me the concrete problem that this would solve that you are actually trying to solve that isn't an illustration
  11. # [00:04] <gwicke> if we define our own itemtype per template, then that makes sense for editing and complete parameter availability
  12. # [00:04] <gwicke> but it would not necessarily serve to identify the shared semantics between two otherwise similar templates
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> i don't know what "complete parameter availability" means
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  15. # [00:04] <Hixie> if you use the same absolute URL for each property that is in common between two itemtypes, then the shared semantic problem would be solved.
  16. # [00:07] <gwicke> that would certainly help to identify 'this is a date', so we could display the date widget in the editor
  17. # [00:07] <zcorpan> so what happened with htmlwg's heart beat? it stopped?
  18. # [00:08] <zcorpan> CPR anyone?
  19. # [00:09] <gwicke> at the same time there seems to be some value in being able to add a standard itemtype and have browsers or search engines use that information
  20. # [00:11] <Hixie> gwicke: "some value" isn't a concrete problem.
  21. # [00:12] <Hixie> gwicke: i see no value if there's no concrete problem being solved.
  22. # [00:12] <Hixie> gwicke: and as i said earlier, in any case, if wikipedia makes up a vocabulary, browser and search engine vendors will adapt to support it
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  24. # [00:13] <gwicke> Hixie: each wiki has its own templates and vocabulary, so there would be no standard at all
  25. # [00:13] <gwicke> at least nothing that could be described in a few rules
  26. # [00:14] <Hixie> gwicke: wikipedia, or mediawiki? i thought we were talking about wikipedia.
  27. # [00:14] <gwicke> so we are looking for a way to identify the common things and relate them to more widely used vocabularies
  28. # [00:14] <gwicke> the software is mediawiki, so this system would be available in other wikis too
  29. # [00:15] <gwicke> and wikipedia is made up of a lot of different wikis as well
  30. # [00:15] <gwicke> each with a slightly different template system
  31. # [00:15] <gwicke> template names are often localized for example
  32. # [00:15] <Hixie> gwicke: i don't see how the problems you've described apply to other mediawiki instances (e.g. wiki.whatwg.org)
  33. # [00:16] <Hixie> gwicke: certainly you wouldn't want to localise attribte names per instance of _wikipedia_, that's where documentation comes into play.
  34. # [00:16] <Hixie> gwicke: for this purpose, i think it's reasonable to view all the localisations as one project
  35. # [00:16] <gwicke> the structure is different too
  36. # [00:17] <Hixie> structure of what?
  37. # [00:17] <gwicke> templates
  38. # [00:17] <gwicke> many only exist in some wikis
  39. # [00:17] <gwicke> some are copied around and adapted
  40. # [00:18] <gwicke> there are also presentational parameters, that are not semantically interesting at all
  41. # [00:19] <Hixie> those seem like non-issues from microdata's perspective
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  43. # [00:20] <gwicke> except if you would like to expose a subset using a commonly used itemtype
  44. # [00:20] <gwicke> and all of them using an internal itemtype
  45. # [00:20] <gwicke> (and possibly a third, widely used itemtype for a different subset)
  46. # [00:21] <Hixie> good lord, no
  47. # [00:21] <Hixie> that sounds like massive complexity
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  49. # [00:21] <Hixie> just have one itemtype for the editor to know what kind of UI to use
  50. # [00:21] <Hixie> and that's it
  51. # [00:21] <Hixie> and for the properties, always use absolute URLs
  52. # [00:21] <Hixie> picked from a common set defined for all localisations
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  54. # [00:22] <gwicke> that works for the editor problem, yes
  55. # [00:23] <Hixie> works for all the concrete problems you have given so far
  56. # [00:23] <Hixie> the "researcher" thing, the "people keep asking us questions" thing
  57. # [00:23] <Hixie> and the dbpedia thing
  58. # [00:23] <Hixie> also the search engine and browser vendor things
  59. # [00:23] <gwicke> maybe not the 'browser pops up an offer to add the event to my calendar' use case
  60. # [00:24] <Hixie> why not?
  61. # [00:24] <gwicke> the schema would be specific to some wiki
  62. # [00:25] <gwicke> or would you use absolute urls from some commonly known vocabulary?
  63. # [00:25] <zcorpan> woah. "CfC: Publish ten heartbeat drafts as WDs"
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  65. # [00:32] <gwicke> I wonder if itemprops named with an absolute url could be associated with an itemtype that matches its prefix
  66. # [00:32] <gwicke> (and if there are several matches, with the longest matching itemtype)
  67. # [00:35] <Hixie> gwicke: "wikipedia" is not "some wiki"
  68. # [00:35] <gwicke> it is many wikis
  69. # [00:35] <Hixie> gwicke: right, but they can all share a single set of itemprop urls
  70. # [00:36] <gwicke> they could, but there seems to be little value in recreating another vocabulary
  71. # [00:38] <gwicke> at least if external vocabularies already cover what is needed
  72. # [00:41] <gwicke> regarding the prefix idea: if all names for all itemprops used absolute urls, then that could enable mixing itemtypes without identical vocabularies in a single item
  73. # [00:41] <Hixie> you said earlier they didn't
  74. # [00:41] <Hixie> so...
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  76. # [00:41] <Hixie> i have no idea what problem you're trying to solve with the prefix thing, so there's no way for me to evaluate it
  77. # [00:43] <gwicke> we have some per-template vocabulary, in which some names might be purely presentational; then we have a subset of those names which could be mapped to a widely used and known vocabulary
  78. # [00:43] <gwicke> absolute urls for itemprops seem to mainly solve the 'type' problem per property
  79. # [00:44] <gwicke> which is still valuable for an editor, but does not present the properties as a single event or the like that can be acted on
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  81. # [00:45] <gwicke> in a browser for example
  82. # [00:46] <gwicke> 'add this person to your address book' for example
  83. # [00:47] <Hixie> i don't understand what you mean by "purely presentational". surely nothing "purely presentational" would be in HTML at all, let alone in microdata.
  84. # [00:47] <Hixie> i don't understand what "the 'type' problem" is
  85. # [00:48] <Hixie> what browser wants to add "add this person to your address book"?
  86. # [00:48] <gwicke> Text labels that are not data would fall into that category, singular/plural etc
  87. # [00:48] <Hixie> ok so that seems like something that would just not be in the microdata
  88. # [00:49] <gwicke> or only in an internal itemtype that is mainly used by edit tools
  89. # [00:50] <Hixie> so far i've not seen any use case for itemtype other than the editor UI thing
  90. # [00:51] <Hixie> i need to go soon. as a general comment i have to go back to what i said earlier: before one can figure out a solution to a problem, one needs to figure out what the problem is.
  91. # [00:51] <Hixie> i strongly recommend against trying to solve hypothetical problems that aren't well-defined
  92. # [00:51] <gwicke> ok, thanks for your comments!
  93. # [00:51] <Hixie> it's essentially impossible to come up with good solutions for problems that one doesn't understand
  94. # [00:52] <gwicke> it is hard to define all possible uses as use cases though ;)
  95. # [00:52] <gwicke> but picking some will sure help
  96. # [00:52] <Hixie> when someone wants to solve a problem you haven't yet solved, you can always go back and fix the problem then
  97. # [00:53] <Hixie> you'll do a much better job that way and will avoid wasting time earlier on something nobody ever uses :-)
  98. # [00:53] * AryehGregor waves to gwicke
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  101. # [00:54] <gwicke> Hixie: ok, will try to define those use cases more tightly
  102. # [00:54] <gwicke> ;)
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  104. # [00:54] <Hixie> gwicke: it's perfectly ok to solve one problem one day and another another day, rather than solving all the problems at once :-)
  105. # [00:55] <gwicke> we still have to define our DOM embedding of the wiki stuff, and we would like to make choices that make other uses easy if possible
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  113. # [01:15] <AryehGregor> Blah. Should I test parsing and serialization at all? CSSOM is such a mess . . .
  114. # [01:19] <gsnedders> It's so far from standardized there's no point.
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  151. # [03:32] <jarek> Hi
  152. # [03:32] <jarek> what's the status of this proposal? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011OctDec/0020.html
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  154. # [03:34] <jarek> I think it would be most elegant if could use CSS selectors for element creation
  155. # [03:35] <jarek> e.g. var buttonElement = createElement("a#edit-button.button[href='http://test.com']")
  156. # [03:36] <jarek> s/if could use/if we could
  157. # [03:40] <jarek> creates <a id="edit-button" class="button" href="http://test.com"></a>
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  169. # [04:57] <Hixie> jarek: createElement(":not(:first-child)") ? :-)
  170. # [04:57] <jarek> Hixie: of course I meant a subset of CSS...
  171. # [04:59] <jarek> CSS selectors already made its way into DOM with querySelector() and querySelectorAll()
  172. # [04:59] <Hixie> jarek: :-P
  173. # [04:59] <jarek> from my reading of the mailing list it looks like there is no consensus on this
  174. # [05:07] <Hixie> you could say that
  175. # [05:08] <Hixie> i kinda like the idea of createElement("a#edit-button.button[href='http://test.com']"), but i think in practice it's not so great because what you'd usually be doing is createElement("a[href='" + url + '"]') and then you end up with all the usual XSS problems of unescaped content being injected
  176. # [05:08] <Hixie> not to mention it looks way uglier than the current proposals especially after you add three or four such attributes
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  179. # [05:15] <jarek> Hixie: yup, it would become messy when you use it for complex elements
  180. # [05:16] <jarek> Hixie: but from my experience, most of the time I create elements that have one class or id
  181. # [05:17] <jarek> the JSON approach discussed on the mailing list assumes the opposite
  182. # [05:18] <jarek> it would be best if we could have both JSON and CSS syntax
  183. # [05:18] <jarek> but considering the amount of bikeshedding this is probably never going to happen :P
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  185. # [05:20] <Hixie> jarek: i'd be ok with simple syntax to add classes and ids (though when you're doing it via the DOM, you shouldn't really need an ID, just keep a reference to the element)
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  187. # [05:21] <Hixie> jarek: but i don't think it should be one based on a special syntax that gets parsed, because that's asking for injection bugs
  188. # [05:22] <jarek> Hixie: but all browsers already ship with solid CSS parsers
  189. # [05:22] <Hixie> the injection bugs would be in the js, not in the browsers
  190. # [05:22] <jarek> I'm not sure how this could be abused
  191. # [05:23] <Hixie> all it takes is for a page to accept input from the user to determine the class name, and for the page not to remember to escape "." or "#" characters
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  197. # [05:41] <kennyluck> Hixie, just curious, what kind of page would accept a class name from a user?
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  199. # [05:42] <Hixie> kennyluck: no idea
  200. # [05:42] <Hixie> kennyluck: it's certainly more of a problem with arbitrary attributes
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  210. # [06:52] <Hixie> wow, 'transform' is still only supported with prefixes?
  211. # [06:55] <othermaciej> yep
  212. # [06:56] <othermaciej> I can't even convince some of my fellow Apple employees that there is no net benefit to prefixing
  213. # [06:56] <othermaciej> a lot of people seem to have faith in the literal truth of <http://www.w3.org/TR/css-2010/#experimental>
  214. # [06:57] <Hixie> putting aside the issue of whether or not they should be prefixed in the first place, shouldn't they definitely be unprefixed by now?
  215. # [06:57] <othermaciej> in my opinion, certainly yes
  216. # [06:57] <othermaciej> but officially, they are not in CR
  217. # [06:57] <Hixie> what's taking so long?
  218. # [06:58] <othermaciej> I don't follow CSS WG enough to have a comment more informed than what anyone could guess
  219. # [06:58] <Hixie> k
  220. # [06:59] <othermaciej> I did read some of the recent www-style discussion on whether to unprefix transform or not
  221. # [06:59] <Hixie> yeah i saw it's been a topic of discussion
  222. # [07:00] <Hixie> prefixing seems fine to me for actual experiments, but experiments need to be short-lived by definition
  223. # [07:00] <Hixie> if we're just gonna ship them like this, there's no benefit and a whole bunch of harm, seems to me
  224. # [07:00] <Hixie> i guess it basically depends on the spec editor
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  226. # [07:08] <othermaciej> I think there is often a challenge in standards work in general, or perhaps life in general, where a rule is made for a very sensible original reason, but people start believing in the rule instead of the reason
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  228. # [07:10] <[tm]> othermaciej: indeed
  229. # [07:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: no kidding
  230. # [07:13] <othermaciej> as a person who's had to invent rules, I understand pretty well that they can end up not serving their original purpose or causing unintended consequences
  231. # [07:19] <[tm]> I think I'll file a by report against the decision policy asking that the quote "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" be printed at the rip on big bold letters
  232. # [07:19] <[tm]> s/rip/top
  233. # [07:20] <[tm]> *bug report
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  294. # [09:48] <annevk> so should we have xhr.responseURL?
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  303. # [10:15] <hsivonen> annevk: use case? redirect checking?
  304. # [10:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: seems odd to use CSS syntax for HTML elements instead of an HTML tag. (Yay, reinventing IE5 features.)
  305. # [10:17] <jgraham> The CSS syntax thing seems horrendous, tbh
  306. # [10:18] <annevk> resolving relative URLs in non-HTML/XML responses
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  308. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: as I understand it, Apple dropped the editing ball somewhat after submitting the Transforms/Transitions/Animations specs
  309. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: combine that with the policy that stuff stays prefixed until CR
  310. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: and combine that with upholding the policy instead of overturning policies that demonstratably bear bad fruit
  311. # [10:21] <hsivonen> Prediction: 3 months from now, Transforms/Transitions/Animations are 3 months from CR again
  312. # [10:22] <hsivonen> CSS3--always 3 months from CR
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  324. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> Hmm, I hadn't seen http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/ before
  325. # [11:10] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@182.53.53.224)
  326. # [11:12] <annevk> pretty old :)
  327. # [11:13] <annevk> oh it's been updated again
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  329. # [11:22] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, yt?
  330. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> yup
  331. # [11:23] <Ms2ger> Is http://w3c-test.org/framework/ supposed to get the results from testharness.js tests automatically?
  332. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  333. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> it was broke today though
  334. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> I broke it
  335. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> I think I fixed what I broke
  336. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> I mean just now fixed it, like in the last 15 minutes
  337. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> Aha
  338. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> so if you were seeing a problem, maybe retry it now
  339. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> Is it updated automatically?
  340. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> PHP and apache just give me so much heartburn
  341. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> it's updated in that I just ssh'ed into the server and edited the code there directly
  342. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> and then committed to the dvcs.w3.org remote
  343. # [11:26] <Ms2ger> Oh, duh, the checkbox
  344. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> ah
  345. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> heh
  346. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> NOT MY FAULT AFTER ALL
  347. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> I feel slightly better
  348. # [11:27] <Ms2ger> Pff, there's enough I can blame you for ;)
  349. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> heh
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  351. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> I had tried to walk away from the test-framework code weeks ago so that I don't cause any more damage
  352. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> but they keep pulling me back in
  353. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> having me write php code is an accident waiting to happen
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  355. # [11:28] <Ms2ger> Bah, innerHTML
  356. # [11:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: s/me/anyone/
  357. # [11:28] <zcorpan> having anyone write php code is an accident waiting to happen
  358. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: heh
  359. # [11:28] <zcorpan> hsivonen beat me to it
  360. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: make a macro for "having anyone write php code is an accident waiting to happen"
  361. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> for next time
  362. # [11:29] <zcorpan> the s/// trick is fast enough
  363. # [11:31] * MikeSmith finally steps away now for real for some R&R
  364. # [11:31] * jgraham is going to blame all the bugs he is currently hunting on the legacy PHP system his code intereacts with (and not on his new code, obviously :)
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  368. # [11:37] <annevk> did not forget eggs
  369. # [11:37] <annevk> yay
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  372. # [11:38] <jgraham> What about yoghurt?
  373. # [11:38] <annevk> healthy supply of yoghurt too, cherry tomatoes, enough until I head to Norway for bacon cheeseburger / taco diet
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  382. # [11:45] <zcorpan> what can you make from eggs, yoghurt and cherry tomatoes?
  383. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> A meal
  384. # [11:46] <jgraham> Art
  385. # [11:47] <tomasf> a tomato yoghurt omelette
  386. # [11:47] <charlvn> just throw it into a wok and be done with it
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  389. # [11:48] <zcorpan> i think i'd boil the eggs, eat the yoghurt as it is, and put the tomatoes in the oven or so. good breakfast
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  391. # [11:52] <kennyluck> Are there mailing lists for spec changes on dvcs.w3.org? Or you need to use RSS/ATOM?
  392. # [11:52] * smaug____ kicks some students who just copy-paste code and try to claim it is theirs code.
  393. # [11:53] <Ms2ger> kennyluck, the latter, I think
  394. # [11:53] <kennyluck> oh fine.
  395. # [11:55] <hsivonen> smaug____: in Bugzilla? or have you become a course assistant?
  396. # [11:56] <smaug____> hsivonen: I've been "mentoring" some students
  397. # [11:56] <smaug____> not in bugzilla
  398. # [11:56] <hsivonen> smaug____: I see
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  400. # [11:58] <jgraham> zcorpan: Would be better if you poached the eggs, I think
  401. # [11:58] <jgraham> But otherwise I agree
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  404. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> Scrambled, of course
  405. # [12:04] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, seems like the automatic reporting went into an infinite loop: http://w3c-test.org/framework/details/dom4-Ms2ger-submissions/Document-getElementById.html/engine/gecko/
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  407. # [12:07] <zcorpan> hmm i have never made poached eggs. gotta try that
  408. # [12:10] * annevk had fried eggs
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  416. # [12:53] <[tm]> Ms2ger: つうは
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  418. # [12:54] <[tm]> Ms2ger: thanks for the heads-up
  419. # [12:54] <[tm]> will take a look at it when i get back to my laptop
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  423. # [13:07] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  424. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> "Communication is"?
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  426. # [13:22] <annevk> hmm http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-event-dispatch does not initialize to AT_TARGET for normal objects
  427. # [13:22] <annevk> that seems like a bug
  428. # [13:23] <annevk> maybe we should just flatten that structure and let the ancestor list become the empty list if there's no tree?
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  442. # [13:34] <annevk> done
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  449. # [13:58] <Velmont> Reading the IDB-spec, -- this seems like it should work: add: 1:"one", 2:"two", 3:"two", add an index on the values. Make a cursor on the values. when at key 2, ("two"), it should be possible to run cursor.continue("two") and get to key 3.
  450. # [14:00] <Velmont> Currently mozilla throws for it, -- webkit doesn't seem to have updated their idb implementation, and ie is impossible to run without loads of stress. :P Ohwell, and they're also implementing an old spec.
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  463. # [14:20] <annevk> A : B
  464. # [14:20] <annevk> A is derived from B
  465. # [14:20] <annevk> is that okay?
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  467. # [14:31] <Velmont> annevk: That's how the specs looks now, -- what should be not okay with it?
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  470. # [14:35] <annevk> Velmont: just wondering about using the word "derived"
  471. # [14:35] <annevk> I should maybe be a bit more verbose :)
  472. # [14:36] <Velmont> Oh. Dunno. :]
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  492. # [15:21] * annevk is writing an introduction to events
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  497. # [15:39] <zcorpan> autofocus on links
  498. # [15:39] <zcorpan> $ grep -aPc "\.focus\(\)" web200904
  499. # [15:39] <zcorpan> 124167
  500. # [15:39] <zcorpan> $ grep -aPc "document\.(forms|getElementsByTagName\s*\(\s*[\"']([iI][nN][pP][uU][tT]|[bB][uU][tT][tT][oO][nN]|[tT][eE][xX][tT][aA][rR][eE][aA]|[kK][eE][yY][gG][eE][nN]|[sS][eE][lL][eE][cC][tT])[\"']\s*\))\S*\.focus\(\)" web200904
  501. # [15:39] <zcorpan> 2713
  502. # [15:39] <zcorpan> $ grep -aPc "document\.(links|getElementsByTagName\s*\(\s*[\"'][aA][\"']\s*\))\S*\.focus\(\)" web200904
  503. # [15:39] <zcorpan> 7
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  505. # [15:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: Easier to write ((?i)input|button|...) for case-insensitivity
  506. # [15:44] <Philip`> (assuming you want it scoped to part of the pattern, not global)
  507. # [15:46] <zcorpan> Philip`: ah, thanks
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  509. # [15:46] <zcorpan> i tried the -i flag but for some reason that gave 0 results
  510. # [15:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: is ?i equivalent, though? that is, is it ASCII-case-insensitive or Unicode-case-insensitive?
  511. # [15:48] <hsivonen> someone could use İNPUT
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  514. # [15:54] <zcorpan> $ grep -aPc "(İ|ı)((?i)nput)" web200904
  515. # [15:54] <zcorpan> 0
  516. # [15:54] <zcorpan> searching for just "(İ|ı)" gives plenty of results though
  517. # [15:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: I presume grep is being run with locale settings like LANG=C so it'll treat the input and command-line arguments as 8-bit ASCIIish strings and won't do any encoding/decoding itself, so it can't be Unicode-case-insensitive
  518. # [15:56] * Philip` doesn't like how grep seems to go about a hundred times slower when using the default UTF-8 locales on modern Linuxes
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  523. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> I just found some transition tests that only IE and Opera pass.
  524. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> (transitions on elements with display: none -- both Gecko and WebKit don't transition)
  525. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> It happens sometimes.
  526. # [16:14] <zcorpan> does transition between 0 and auto work yet?
  527. # [16:15] <zcorpan> for height
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  529. # [16:20] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#events
  530. # [16:21] <zcorpan> heh, // great success
  531. # [16:23] <zcorpan> "but do not implement the EventTarget interface and can therefore not be dispatched on themselves." is this something that is necessary to say in an introduction? :-)
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  534. # [16:24] <zcorpan> annevk: seems more useful to mention that the listener gets called with the event as its argument
  535. # [16:26] <zcorpan> annevk: "Apart from signaling events " add a comma before events
  536. # [16:27] <annevk> ah yeah, I should rename event listener's listener to event listener's callback
  537. # [16:28] <annevk> all your other comments sound good too
  538. # [16:29] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, there's a spec bug on that, I think.
  539. # [16:30] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: on what?
  540. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, transition to/from auto.
  541. # [16:30] <zcorpan> ah. ok
  542. # [16:31] <zcorpan> it's the first thing i wanted to do with transitions when i tried to use it a few years ago when webkit implemented it and opera had an internal impl
  543. # [16:31] <zcorpan> disappointing that it still doesn't work
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  545. # [16:32] <annevk> it's the one thing my friends keep bugging me about
  546. # [16:32] <AryehGregor> I don't know if it works in implementations.
  547. # [16:32] <annevk> I raised it too at one point, didn't really go anywhere
  548. # [16:35] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: bratell wonders how you keep the selection right when manipulating the tree in the editing spec
  549. # [16:35] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, I just reset it sometimes. The range mutation algorithm isn't good enough by itself.
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  551. # [16:36] <AryehGregor> Like: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html#deleting-the-selection "If direction is "forward", call collapseToStart() on the context object's selection."
  552. # [16:36] <AryehGregor> Stuff like that.
  553. # [16:37] <AryehGregor> "Call collapse(start node, start offset) on the context object's selection. Call extend(end node, end offset) on the context object's selection."
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  555. # [16:38] <zcorpan> thanks
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  559. # [16:46] <matjas> zcorpan: thanks for the link, i saw this behavior mentioned in a few old bug reports as well (ES3 era). i couldn’t find this in the es5 spec though… any pointers?
  560. # [16:47] <annevk> hsivonen: maybe warning in console too?
  561. # [16:47] <annevk> hsivonen: for sync xhr
  562. # [16:48] <zcorpan> matjas: it's not in the es5 spec afaik
  563. # [16:48] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd be OK with that.
  564. # [16:48] <zcorpan> matjas: that's why we have the wiki page
  565. # [16:48] <matjas> zcorpan: ok, i’ll just add a compatibility note then. thanks!
  566. # [16:49] * matjas scrolls up on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#Identifiers and reads the very first paragraph…
  567. # [16:49] <matjas> #facepalm
  568. # [16:50] <zcorpan> i hear ya
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  570. # [16:56] * zcorpan just learned about error.stack
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  573. # [16:57] <zcorpan> since window.onerror got a column argument, should we add column info to exceptions too?
  574. # [16:58] <zcorpan> and add stack to window.onerror?
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  576. # [17:02] <zcorpan> or use the 4th argument to onerror for the actual exception object
  577. # [17:05] <AryehGregor> function any_unit_to_num(str) { return Number(String(str).match(/^([\d.]+)/)[1]); }
  578. # [17:06] <AryehGregor> Is that supposed to be intentionally different from parseFloat(), I wonder?
  579. # [17:10] <zcorpan> where's that from?
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  581. # [17:16] * zcorpan finds "Octal literals" in http://kangax.github.com/es5-compat-table/non-standard/
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  584. # [17:20] * zcorpan wonders how to grep for octal literals in scripts
  585. # [17:20] <tomasf> ugh. octal literals in JS? the syntax is so stupid
  586. # [17:20] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, a Gecko mochitest.
  587. # [17:21] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: ?
  588. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> An internal JS-based test.
  589. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> test_transitions_per_property.html.
  590. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> Is where it's from.
  591. # [17:21] <zcorpan> ah
  592. # [17:21] * AryehGregor is rewriting to be more readable and less Gecko-specific
  593. # [17:22] <zcorpan> my mind has always went on to something else when you answer me something. :-)
  594. # [17:22] <AryehGregor> That's what backscroll is for. :)
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  603. # [18:03] <matjas> zcorpan: http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/javascript-escapes#octal has this regex: \\(?:[1-7][0-7]{0,2}|[0-7]{2,3})
  604. # [18:04] <matjas> (note that \0 is not an octal escape)
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  606. # [18:04] <matjas> ooh octal literals, not escapes; ignore me
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  635. # [18:35] <Philip`> zcorpan: Might be worth using some code to parse the pages and extract the script content rather than trying to force everything through grep
  636. # [18:36] <Philip`> Also might be worth resolving references to external .js files and downloading some of those
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  682. # [20:11] <jhawkins> Hixie: ping
  683. # [20:15] <twisted`> is it correct that a margin-right on the most right position of a website is covered by a scrollbar?
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  718. # [21:13] <Hixie> jhawkins: pong
  719. # [21:13] <annevk> whoa, surprise return from Mark Baker
  720. # [21:14] <Hixie> twisted`: scrollbar should be between padding and border, iirc
  721. # [21:14] <Hixie> twisted`: unless it's one of the popup scrollbars, in which case it should just overlap the padding, inside the border
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  729. # [21:29] <jhawkins> Hixie: no need to chat now, thanks
  730. # [21:30] <Hixie> k
  731. # [21:30] <Hixie> man, i go skiing for like one day and i just get deluged in e-mail
  732. # [21:31] <TabAtkins_> I know what you mean. My inbox blew up yesterday.
  733. # [21:36] * Joins: lar_zzz (~lar_zzz@p4FE25EEA.dip.t-dialin.net)
  734. # [21:36] <annevk> I ended up with +60 emails over the weekend
  735. # [21:36] <annevk> and I worked some during the weekend
  736. # [21:36] <annevk> it's weird
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  739. # [21:39] <Hixie> haha, a mime type vs media type discussion
  740. # [21:39] <Hixie> turns out the ietf calls them "ietf types" btw, at least based on the mailing list name ;-)
  741. # [21:40] <TabAtkins_> ietf ptyes
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  743. # [21:41] <TabAtkins_> Or I suppose I could infer a "vowels then consontans, both reverse-sorted" rule, so "ietf eytsp".
  744. # [21:45] <Hixie> Ms2ger: on your union types patch, why do you give the optional argument for dom-select-add a default value?
  745. # [21:45] * Ms2ger checks
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  747. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> Oh, because I found it somewhat unclear if the algorithm at #dom-htmloptionscollection-add handled the omitted argument case
  748. # [21:48] <Hixie> ah k
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  751. # [21:52] <Hixie> i don't really see why it's ambiguous, but defaulting to null seems harmless enough so i'll leave it
  752. # [21:52] <Hixie> was the change in capitalisation in the title="" earlier intentional also?
  753. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
  754. # [21:54] <Hixie> k
  755. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> No, wasn't
  756. # [21:54] <Hixie> thanks for the patch
  757. # [21:55] <Hixie> ooh, we went over r7000 and i didn't notice
  758. # [21:55] <Hixie> you also added a newline at the end of my file :-P
  759. # [21:57] <Hixie> 1 Line 16 of IDL #74: at '=': expected ')'
  760. # [21:57] <Hixie> 1 Line 4 of IDL #110: at 'callback': expected identifier
  761. # [21:57] <Hixie> 1 Line 6 of IDL #4: at '=': expected ')'
  762. # [21:57] <Hixie> 1 Line 6 of IDL #56: at 'callback': expected identifier
  763. # [21:57] <Hixie> i wish the webidl checker would tell me which one was IDL #110...
  764. # [21:57] <annevk> oh, 7000 commits
  765. # [21:57] <annevk> I was wondering what to put in the WHATWG Weekly besides the JavaScript Unicode stuff
  766. # [21:58] <Hixie> "hixie was skiing and then had a lazy weekend, so nothing happened on html this week" :-P
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  768. # [21:59] <Hixie> aah, i see, the complaint is that "callback" is a reserved word now
  769. # [21:59] <Hixie> and i use it as my argument name
  770. # [21:59] <Hixie> fair enough
  771. # [21:59] <annevk> oh shit
  772. # [21:59] <annevk> that's not allowed?
  773. # [21:59] <annevk> Hixie: hehe
  774. # [22:00] <Hixie> you have to use _callback or something
  775. # [22:00] <miketaylr> use hollaback
  776. # [22:00] <Hixie> to escape the identifier
  777. # [22:00] <annevk> argument names should not be identifiers
  778. # [22:00] <annevk> I think heycam|away should fix that
  779. # [22:00] <annevk> argument names are nothing
  780. # [22:00] <annevk> should be easy enough to disambiguate, no?
  781. # [22:01] <Hixie> well without lookahead you need some way to disambiguate the argument name from more information about the argument
  782. # [22:01] <annevk> name always follows type afaik
  783. # [22:01] <annevk> and then there's a comma or )
  784. # [22:02] <Hixie> e.g. foo(optional long long bar) - is the type "long long" or is the type "long" and the argument called "long"?
  785. # [22:02] <Hixie> "long long" might be the only time this is a problem
  786. # [22:02] <annevk> and long long is predefined
  787. # [22:03] <Hixie> only because "long" is a reserved word
  788. # [22:03] <annevk> right
  789. # [22:03] * jamesr_ is now known as jamesr
  790. # [22:03] <annevk> I'm gonna raise this, might be worth fixing
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  792. # [22:09] <annevk> oh you just escape them in the IDL? hmm still ugly
  793. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Who decided we should have both String.substr() and String.substring()? Really?
  794. # [22:13] <TabAtkins_> Java. And Eich.
  795. # [22:14] <othermaciej> are they distinct?
  796. # [22:14] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  797. # [22:14] <TabAtkins_> One takes an end index, the other a length.
  798. # [22:14] <TabAtkins_> Guess which!
  799. # [22:15] <othermaciej> that's awesome
  800. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> That was actually deliberately copied from Java?
  801. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> I assumed it was some kind of fluke where two different browsers came up with them independently and we compromised by picking both.
  802. # [22:16] <TabAtkins_> Ah, I guess not.
  803. # [22:16] <TabAtkins_> Blame Eich anyway. He's used to it.
  804. # [22:17] <TabAtkins_> Java has a proper start/end function named substring.
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  807. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> We've got one java-style, one python-style and one perl-style, no?
  808. # [22:22] <gsnedders> othermaciej: One is deprecated and spec'd in Appendix B (substr), one isn't (and spec'd in the main body of the spec).
  809. # [22:23] <annevk> so
  810. # [22:23] <annevk> WTWTF, OMOMG
  811. # [22:23] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: The only things from Java are java.util.Math and java.util.Date
  812. # [22:23] <annevk> BBBBQ?
  813. # [22:23] <annevk> dino ^^
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  815. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, and the name? :)
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  817. # [22:26] <annevk> last time I wrote JavaScript I had to replace all my ands with && and ors with ||
  818. # [22:26] <annevk> crazy
  819. # [22:27] <annevk> and all those parenthesis
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  823. # [22:28] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Well, that's not really taken from, it more just is it.
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  825. # [22:29] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: And it's called ECMAScript!111!!!11111!!!!11!!!eleventy!!!
  826. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> :)
  827. # [22:30] <annevk> ECMAScript is just a posh name for JavaScript
  828. # [22:31] <gsnedders> A rose by any other name would smell as sweet?
  829. # [22:32] <gsnedders> But I guess plenty of people wouldn't claim JS/ES/whatever smells sweet.
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  848. # [23:12] <odinho> 23:01 -!- Topic set by annevk42 [] [Mon Oct 19 23:03:06 2009]
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  851. # [23:12] <odinho> That is some old topic, sure! That's why the stats say: A topic was never set on this channel.
  852. # [23:14] <smaug____> gavin's stats aren't updating
  853. # [23:15] <annevk> annevk42 is awesome
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  855. # [23:16] <gavin> smaug____: hmm? http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html looks up to date
  856. # [23:17] <TabAtkins_> I'm pretty close to catching up to hsivonen!
  857. # [23:17] <TabAtkins_> Just gotta spam it up for a while, gain another 300 lines.
  858. # [23:17] <gavin> oh... 2012 might have broken the config
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  862. # [23:18] <annevk> there was a reset of the logs right?
  863. # [23:19] <annevk> anne-mac is no longer there
  864. # [23:19] <gavin> that was a while ago
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  867. # [23:19] <gavin> but yeah, I changed the machine hosting them, and so stats lost ~3years of historical logs
  868. # [23:19] <gavin> http://gavinsharp.com/irc/old/whatwg.html is the archived copy
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  871. # [23:21] <annevk> oh cool
  872. # [23:22] <gavin> I still have all of the old logs, I just can't easily merge them all together
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  875. # [23:22] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  876. # [23:22] <annevk> one person kicked in well over 1617 days now
  877. # [23:23] <annevk> in 1617 + 450 days
  878. # [23:23] <annevk> pretty awesome
  879. # [23:24] <gavin> ok, think I found a simple fix to the 2012 problem
  880. # [23:24] <smaug____> gavin: "today "bug 690225 is not a crasher"" is very old
  881. # [23:24] <gavin> I'll trigger a re-run with that fixed
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  883. # [23:25] <annevk> smaug____: "today" and the quote are different fields
  884. # [23:25] <annevk> smaug____: "today" is just last seen
  885. # [23:25] <annevk> smaug____: the quote is completely random afaik
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  888. # [23:25] <gavin> annevk: no, the quote is generally from the last day
  889. # [23:25] <annevk> oh
  890. # [23:25] <gavin> well, "last seen"
  891. # [23:25] <annevk> should not say "Random quote" then maybe
  892. # [23:25] <gavin> yeah I guess
  893. # [23:26] <annevk> I saw they updated the software btw
  894. # [23:26] <annevk> but no interesting new features
  895. # [23:26] <annevk> http://pisg.sourceforge.net/changelog
  896. # [23:26] <gavin> heh
  897. # [23:27] <smaug____> annevk: ah, right
  898. # [23:27] <smaug____> hmm
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  901. # [23:40] <gavin> ok, http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html is updated
  902. # [23:40] <gavin> smaug____: ^
  903. # [23:40] <smaug____> did I go up in the top 25 list
  904. # [23:40] <smaug____> that is surprising
  905. # [23:40] <TabAtkins_> Dammit, hsivonen. He widened the gap.
  906. # [23:40] <smaug____> other people have been even more lazy with whatwg than I
  907. # [23:40] <smaug____> (or even busier with other stuff than I)
  908. # [23:41] <gavin> AryehGregor surpassed MikeSmith to take the #3 spot
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  914. # Session Close: Wed Feb 22 00:00:00 2012

The end :)