/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 25 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <Hixie> so to introduce path primitives, i think i need to split CanvasRenderingContext2D into two interfaces Path and CanvasRenderingContext2D, where CanvasRenderingContext2D inherits from Path
  4. # [00:05] * Parts: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  5. # [00:05] <Hixie> that way you can do pretty much everything you want to a path that you can to a canvas, short of doing anything with colour or shadows
  6. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> OO - ruining everything since the 80s or whatever.
  7. # [00:06] <Hixie> heh
  8. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Does WebIDL make mixins easy?
  9. # [00:07] <Hixie> whether we do it as a mixin or inheritance is a detail
  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> i don't really care either way
  11. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Sure. Until you want to abstract something else out of Canvas.
  12. # [00:07] <Hixie> sure
  13. # [00:07] <Hixie> i'm just talking high level here
  14. # [00:08] <Hixie> hmm.... maybe it should be a separate interface anyway, since path.fill(path) and context.fill(path) would do rather different things
  15. # [00:08] <Hixie> adding one path to another path, and drawing colour to the canvas, respectively
  16. # [00:08] <Hixie> hmm
  17. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> ...that sounds like a weird behaviro for path.fill(path).
  18. # [00:08] <Hixie> it would be called something else if we did it that way
  19. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> I don't understand how you can fill a path with a path, unless it's in the layering way, like <pattern> in SVG.
  20. # [00:09] <Hixie> i don't want to define arcTo() etc twice... maybe the right structure is for Path and Context to both inherit/mixin something of an AbstractPath
  21. # [00:09] * Joins: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  22. # [00:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: path.add(path) if you prefer
  23. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's definitely better. ^_^
  24. # [00:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: as opposed to path.addStroke(path), which outlines the path with a particular line width and adds that
  25. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Though, keeping path.fill(foo) is useful. If we're going retained, you can use that to get better AA behavior.
  26. # [00:10] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be cleaner to have a totally independent Path object, and have a CanvasRenderingContext2D.globalPath property (which is a Path), and have CanRenCon2D.arcTo() etc be defined as delegating to globalPath.arcTo(...)
  27. # [00:11] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i was thinking of doing that too. and have .fill(), etc, default to the .globalPath object if there's not an explicit argument saying which to use.
  28. # [00:11] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  29. # [00:11] <Hixie> Philip`: seems weird to actually expose .globalPath though
  30. # [00:11] <Hixie> since it wouldn't add anything
  31. # [00:12] <Philip`> (Using some kind of explicit delegation (instead of inheritance etc) would also make it possible for Path to have a slightly different API to CRC2D, if there was any desire for that (to clean up things without compat concerns, or something), and CRC2D can define whatever mapping is needed)
  32. # [00:14] <Hixie> yeah, though having two different sets of path api is a bit ugly
  33. # [00:14] <Hixie> is there anything to clean up?
  34. # [00:14] <Hixie> if not i'd much rather keep them identical
  35. # [00:14] <Philip`> I don't remember
  36. # [00:14] * Philip` has forgotten most of the API currently
  37. # [00:15] <Hixie> also it's kind of weird to have the transform be on context.globalPath yet affect the context's own methods (even those not delegating to the globalPath object)
  38. # [00:15] <Hixie> (we'd want transforms on path objects so you can do things like add text pointing in various directions to a single path)
  39. # [00:15] <Hixie> (same reason we'd want the font properties on the path object)
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  44. # [00:33] <Hixie> hmmmmmm
  45. # [00:33] <Hixie> how to make isPointInPath() useful when applied to a path you use to stamp out a bunch of things in different places
  46. # [00:34] <Hixie> it doesn't work just to have a path = context.transformPath(path) feature, because you might want just to have the translate and rotation transforms applied but not the scale
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  48. # [00:34] <Hixie> you really want "transformPathUsingOnlyTheTransformsImGoingToUndoBeforeCallingIsPointInPath(path)"
  49. # [00:34] <Hixie> hmmm
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  52. # [00:45] <Hixie> how else can we make hit testing easier on canvas without making it retained-mode...
  53. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Optional set of transforms you can pass to isPointInPath along with the path itself?
  54. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Something like, I dunno, isPointInPath(path, {offset:[x,y], transform:<string>})
  55. # [00:46] <Hixie> it would be sad to have to have two ways to express transforms in one api
  56. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  57. # [00:46] <Hixie> we could have a way to register a callback for a path on the canvas, and have the UA be responsible for discarding callbacks that relate to paths that have been entirely overlapped
  58. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Make a transform object?
  59. # [00:47] <Hixie> (and have clearRect() clear the callbacks from the given region)
  60. # [00:47] <Hixie> could have some kind of transform object
  61. # [00:48] <Hixie> though i don't really see how it would work
  62. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> I presume that other drawing libraries, particularly ones built on canvas, have run into this problem.
  63. # [00:48] <Hixie> (i mean, a transform object is essentially what "path = context.transformPath(path)" gives you, and that fails as described above)
  64. # [00:51] <Hixie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3146424/html5-canvas-hittesting suggests two things, one, be retained (scene graph) and two, basically what i suggest above, have a way to register a callback for a path and have the UA throw away the paths once overlapped
  65. # [00:51] <Hixie> (they give a particular implementation strategy for case two)
  66. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see what you were asking about.
  67. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  68. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Using those color hacks for picking is pretty awesome.
  69. # [00:53] <Hixie> http://simonsarris.com/blog/510-making-html5-canvas-useful basically says scene graph
  70. # [00:54] <Hixie> http://atomicrobotdesign.com/blog/htmlcss/build-a-vertical-scrolling-shooter-game-with-html5-canvas-part-3/ says scene graph
  71. # [00:55] * Joins: timmywil (~timmywil@host-68-169-154-67.WISOLT2.epbfi.com)
  72. # [00:55] <Hixie> if we do a ua-maintained stack of data, i wonder if we should use structured-cloned data that's made available in the mouse events on the canvas, or whether we should use callbacks
  73. # [00:55] <Hixie> i'm thinking the former is probably more useful
  74. # [00:56] <Hixie> since then you can do this for mouse down, move, up, wheel events, etc
  75. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "structured-cloned data"?
  76. # [00:58] <Hixie> arbitrary JS object that has gone through http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#structured-clone
  77. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know that. ^_^ I meant what data are you expecting to pass?
  78. # [00:58] <Hixie> oh
  79. # [00:59] <Hixie> index of the space ship, stuff like that
  80. # [00:59] <Hixie> whatever info you need to be able to process the click
  81. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Hm. For large scenes, doing picking directly from teh scene graph is slow. It becomes a linear search through the tree.
  82. # [01:00] <Hixie> well the advantage of having the UA do it is that the UA can do lots of optimisations that a JS author might not bother with
  83. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> Yeah, definitely.
  84. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> The UA should be the one in charge of picking.
  85. # [01:00] <Hixie> (there are plenty of ways to optimise a hit test like this)
  86. # [01:00] <Hixie> (even without using a backing coloured bitmap)
  87. # [01:01] * Quits: marcoos (~marcoos@81-186-224-1.cityconnect.pl) (Quit: marcoos)
  88. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> (though from what I understand sitting next to some game devs, the backing colored bitmap is pretty much state-of-the-art)
  89. # [01:01] <Hixie> it's certainly going to be the fastest
  90. # [01:01] <Hixie> not the most memory efficient though
  91. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> True.
  92. # [01:01] <Hixie> maybe we don't bother with structured clone, and only do an index
  93. # [01:02] <Hixie> since you wouldn't want authors to clone parts of their scene graph accidentally
  94. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> So, if you're talking about the UA still doing this, what is this data for? Who's getting it?
  95. # [01:02] * TabAtkins is behind your thinking.
  96. # [01:02] <Hixie> addHitRegion(path, mySpaceShipObjectThatReferencesMyEntireGameState)
  97. # [01:02] <Hixie> i'd add it to the click event MouseEvent object
  98. # [01:03] <Hixie> so <canvas onclick="processClickOn(event.hitTargetID)">
  99. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Ah, and paths have some accessible index that you can store on your own objects?
  100. # [01:04] <Hixie> i was imagining you'd do something like addHitRegion(path, spaceship.id);
  101. # [01:04] <Hixie> where spaceship is your internal state object for the thing you are drawing with path
  102. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Ah, the opposite direction. Sure, either way works.
  103. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately JS isn't quite ready yet for having the Path return a unique object for its id.
  104. # [01:05] <Hixie> that would also allow addHitRegion(path, 'text label', ariaRole); or addHitRegion(path, myButtonElement);
  105. # [01:06] <Hixie> which would enable haptic feedback AT features for devices with touch screens where the user brushes the screen to find what's on it, with audible descriptions
  106. # [01:06] <Hixie> which right now totally fail for canvas
  107. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Okay, so the author has to have some way to produce unique ids for their objects that they want to attach paths to.
  108. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Right?
  109. # [01:07] <Hixie> right
  110. # [01:08] <Hixie> typically they have them already, since their objects will typically be in arrays they're walking over
  111. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  112. # [01:08] <Hixie> but in any case generating IDs is trivial
  113. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Note that there is a use-case for wanting to get the set of all objects with a given point inside them.
  114. # [01:08] <Hixie> yeah that's a harder problem
  115. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> That one is generally going to be slow unless you have custom solutions.
  116. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> Like doing searches on a k-tree or something.
  117. # [01:09] <Hixie> the a11y use case and the normal click hit testing use case don't need it, so i'm not too worried about it
  118. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, can be added later.
  119. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> Without impacting the top-object use-case.
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  122. # [01:13] <Hixie> if we add a way to addHitRegion() a path giving that region a label to read out when an AT brings the AT cursor to that part of the canvas
  123. # [01:13] <Hixie> should we just make fillText() and strokeText() always imply such a call?
  124. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> With a path equal to the bounding box of the text or something?
  125. # [01:14] <Hixie> yeah
  126. # [01:14] <Hixie> or something
  127. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Off the top of my head, I don't see why not. Seems nice.
  128. # [01:14] <Hixie> (not bounding box given fillText() along a path)
  129. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sure.
  130. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Suitably mutated was-a-rectangle-before-following-the-path.
  131. # [01:14] <Hixie> it wouldn't survive a drawImage() from one canvas to another, probably, which would be unfortunate
  132. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> *none* of the hit-testing would.
  133. # [01:15] <Hixie> right
  134. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> You need retained-mode if you want that.
  135. # [01:15] <Hixie> also would probably not survive drawing text onto a path then drawing the path
  136. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Hm. That's not necessarily ture.
  137. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> UAs could retain the information alongside the path.
  138. # [01:16] <Hixie> and would be kinda annoying if you were to draw many layers of one piece of text, e.g. doing a motion blur effect
  139. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> True.
  140. # [01:16] <Hixie> actually that one is probably the most serious
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  142. # [01:17] <Hixie> also it would make it annoying to use fillText() to draw pictograms and things from custom fonts
  143. # [01:17] <Hixie> hmm
  144. # [01:17] <Hixie> maybe best to leave it to explicit calls
  145. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Hm. Yeah, might want something explicit.
  146. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Though extending *Text to make it easier might be good too.
  147. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Just not by default.
  148. # [01:18] <Hixie> add an optional ariaRole argument, maybe
  149. # [01:18] <Hixie> (what's the appropriate aria role for a graph label, anyone know?)
  150. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Is there a good role for just 'text' or 'label' or something?
  151. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Heh, lemme check.
  152. # [01:19] <Hixie> looks like there's neither
  153. # [01:19] <Hixie> <label> defaults to No Role
  154. # [01:19] <Hixie> that's unfortunate
  155. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Yes, reading the list of them in /TR/wai-aria/roles, I see nothing appropriate.
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  157. # [01:21] <Hixie> ok. i'm gonna go to tgif, and will pick up this canvas stuff again next week.
  158. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Lemme know if anything cool happens - we're doing board games today.
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  257. # [09:36] <Onderhond> Quick question: is it just me or was there some kind of proposition for a <template> element in html5?
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  279. # [10:39] <annevk> Onderhond: there is
  280. # [10:43] <annevk> sigh Microsoft does not want to remove constants from Indexed DB?
  281. # [10:43] <annevk> consider it for v2?
  282. # [10:43] <annevk> euh
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  287. # [10:50] <annevk> oh lol
  288. # [10:50] <annevk> drm, no drm, it's like https versus http
  289. # [10:51] <annevk> public-html turning into a comedy list does seem positive
  290. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> Better than a tragedy?
  291. # [10:53] <annevk> well, public-html is not good tragedy, so yes
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  304. # [11:24] <Onderhond> annevk: where can I read up on the <template> element? Google isn't very helpful.
  305. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> XBL2 or Web Components.
  306. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> ?
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  309. # [11:33] <hsivonen> I wonder why Gmail thinks emails from Mark Watson (@netflix.com) would be spam if I didn't have a filter telling Gmail never to mark them as spam
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  314. # [12:08] <Dashiva> hsivonen: I think you can hover over some part of it to see why it was marked
  315. # [12:08] <Dashiva> Or maybe that's priority inbox
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  322. # [12:47] <annevk> fyi https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/NZBJe6Jjt1f
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  328. # [13:15] <annevk> there's a <!-- XXX WTF? --> in DOM4
  329. # [13:15] <annevk> about the traverse siblings algorithm it seems
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  331. # [13:17] <Velmont> annevk: Bah. They did not :S -- Well, they can actually change the numeric constants and leave the constants as-is. I guess their developers don't rely on 1 and 2, but rather IDBTransaction.READ_WRITE etc.
  332. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> Hah
  333. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> I would not count on such a reasonable thing
  334. # [13:18] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Well, I don't think Microsoft would admit that they have such sloppy developers.
  335. # [13:18] <annevk> Velmont: but you know... you rewrote their tests
  336. # [13:19] <Velmont> annevk: Heh, -- they didn't use the numbers there, they used the constant names.
  337. # [13:19] <annevk> ah, at least they got something right :)
  338. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> Have you looked at the WebStorage tests?
  339. # [13:21] <annevk> "Interestingly enough, the IETF follows the snapshot model, deals with hundreds of highly critical standards and it works absolutely well."
  340. # [13:21] <Velmont> Not really, took a quick peek once.
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  342. # [13:21] <annevk> hmm
  343. # [13:21] <annevk> HTTP - latest stable version, out of date, a mess
  344. # [13:21] <annevk> data URLs - a mess
  345. # [13:21] <annevk> URI/IRI - cannot be implemented as is
  346. # [13:22] <annevk> TLS - not updated with respect to what implementations actually need to do
  347. # [13:22] <annevk> HTTP authentication -- hahaha
  348. # [13:22] <hsivonen> I wonder how chuck@jumis manages to confuse server-side login with DRM and Trusted Computing for DRM and Trusted Computing against janitor attacks
  349. # [13:23] <hsivonen> did I get trolled?
  350. # [13:23] <annevk> MIME - maybe this one is too easy
  351. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> Man, I wish WebGL used testharness.js
  352. # [13:24] <annevk> hsivonen: I find his emails usually confusing
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  355. # [13:50] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Likewise. WebKit's test harness really doesn't work if you want actual regression tracking…
  356. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> Oh, is this all WebKit's fault?
  357. # [13:51] <gsnedders> Well, at least it looks exactly like WebKit's JS test framework, so I was assuming it was.
  358. # [13:54] <gsnedders> Also: I don't get how people don't bang heads against people claiming random crash bugs are security issues.
  359. # [13:57] <gsnedders> And, ah, how I've missed dealing with GWT output.
  360. # [14:03] <Ms2ger> So, what's the current thinking about http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-writer.html ?
  361. # [14:07] <asmodai> hsivonen: Happen to know if FF fires events for the discarding of large images on a tab switch?
  362. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> To the page? No
  363. # [14:10] <asmodai> is there any other way to detect it?
  364. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> Shouldn't be
  365. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> You could try a timing attack
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  367. # [14:17] <hsivonen> asmodai: no idea
  368. # [14:18] <hsivonen> annevk: regarding indexed db, clearly, there's no v1, either, as evidenced by whar Isreal said
  369. # [14:20] <annevk> well yeah, there's no v
  370. # [14:20] <hsivonen> asmodai: what's the use case?
  371. # [14:21] <asmodai> hsivonen: Was asking based on a tweet of a buddy of mine, I think he's working on his framework debugger again
  372. # [14:21] <asmodai> hsivonen: Trying to get his ass in here so he can just ask himself XD
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  374. # [14:22] <annevk> maybe it's time for a new "red pill" post
  375. # [14:22] <annevk> on standards
  376. # [14:23] <hsivonen> annevk: go for it
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  378. # [14:28] <hsivonen> XML ER is not on xml-dev yet
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  391. # [15:00] <pflock> Does anyone know why the lines here all have the same color though I gave them different strokeStyle's? http://jsfiddle.net/u4Gpf/
  392. # [15:02] <Philip`> pflock: You need to call context.beginPath() before each new path
  393. # [15:02] <pflock> ah thanks ;)
  394. # [15:02] <Philip`> Otherwise you're drawing a path with 1 line, then extending the path to 2 lines and drawing all that again, etc
  395. # [15:03] <pflock> yes I noticed that he always colored them all in the last color I set, so that one overwrites the other colors, but I didn't know why
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  397. # [15:03] <pflock> I thought context.stroke() already 'ends' the path
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  399. # [15:12] <annevk> ok so far I've got
  400. # [15:12] <annevk> * living
  401. # [15:13] <annevk> * public domain
  402. # [15:13] <annevk> maybe developed in public is newish enough too
  403. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> * no telcons
  404. # [15:14] <annevk> ah yeah, asynchronous public decision making
  405. # [15:14] <annevk> nice one
  406. # [15:16] <mhausenblas> maybe add implementation-driven?
  407. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> Or in close cooperation with implementations, at least
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  409. # [15:18] <mhausenblas> in this respect I'm rather radical, Ms2ger
  410. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> I'm not :)
  411. # [15:18] <mhausenblas> what's the point if it isn't implemented?
  412. # [15:18] <mhausenblas> why?
  413. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> Well, sure, it needs to be implemented
  414. # [15:18] <mhausenblas> implemented and implementable
  415. # [15:19] <mhausenblas> right
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  417. # [15:19] <mhausenblas> I remember in horror the work in MPEG-7
  418. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> But it sounded like you were saying it had to be implemented before starting on a spec
  419. # [15:19] <mhausenblas> I was young and I needed the job
  420. # [15:19] <mhausenblas> mhm, sorta
  421. # [15:19] <mhausenblas> like impl - spec -impl - spec
  422. # [15:19] <mhausenblas> ...
  423. # [15:20] <mhausenblas> of course you don't know the entire space so it must be iterative
  424. # [15:20] <mhausenblas> dunno who said it but something along the line of 'any complex system evolved from a very simple on'
  425. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> Mm
  426. # [15:21] <mhausenblas> so: KISS(at least) in the beginning and iterate
  427. # [15:21] <mhausenblas> s/simple on/simple one
  428. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> Agreed
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  431. # [15:28] <annevk> I don't think implementor involvement is important to mention
  432. # [15:28] <annevk> if they're not involved
  433. # [15:28] <annevk> nothing happens
  434. # [15:30] <annevk> can anyone do a quick review? http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/02/standards-red-pill
  435. # [15:31] <mhausenblas> annevk I don't understand your logic
  436. # [15:32] <mhausenblas> in what you say it looks implementer involvment is an essential precondition, no?
  437. # [15:32] <annevk> what part?
  438. # [15:32] <annevk> yeah
  439. # [15:32] <mhausenblas> so how can it be *not* important to mention
  440. # [15:32] <mhausenblas> people often make the mistake to forget to externalise the most basic assumption
  441. # [15:33] <annevk> mkay
  442. # [15:33] <mhausenblas> because they seem to obvious
  443. # [15:33] <mhausenblas> right
  444. # [15:33] <Philip`> annevk: s/proof/prove/
  445. # [15:33] <mhausenblas> annevk, lemme know when you're done - happy to (re)tweet/G+ it
  446. # [15:34] <annevk> thanks to Philip` and your addition I guess it's done now
  447. # [15:34] <mhausenblas> cool
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  455. # [16:32] <kennyluck> Language — US English is the standard
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  480. # [18:59] <jonnybarnes> hey, has anyone got a good refrence list of XML references?
  481. # [18:59] <StoneCypher> google does
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  483. # [19:00] <jonnybarnes> Looking at an RSS feed I've made with PHP and seeing a lot of &#13; entities and trying to find out what character thats meant to be
  484. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> CR
  485. # [19:00] <StoneCypher> so use an entity decoder
  486. # [19:00] <jonnybarnes> Cheers Ms2ger
  487. # [19:00] <StoneCypher> or give a man a fish
  488. # [19:01] <jonnybarnes> StoneCypher: any recomendations for entoty decoders?
  489. # [19:01] * Ms2ger slaps StoneCypher around a bit with a fish
  490. # [19:01] <jonnybarnes> *entity
  491. # [19:01] <StoneCypher> jonnybarnes: google does
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  499. # [19:16] <Philip`> jonnybarnes: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/search.htm?q=%26%2313%3B&preview=entity should do it for numeric ones
  500. # [19:16] <Philip`> (&#13; means decimal 13, which is hex 000D, so it's Unicode character U+000D)
  501. # [19:19] <jonnybarnes> cheers Philip`
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  540. # [21:11] <hsivonen> cute how DRM proponents don't like my use of the word adversary even though I used it because the proposal used that word
  541. # [21:13] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-123-235.dynamic.hinet.net)
  542. # [21:27] <StoneCypher> they're adversaries of adversary?
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  546. # [21:50] * smaug____ is glad he isn't following public-html
  547. # [21:50] <smaug____> Commenting "Encrypted Media proposal" would make me too angry
  548. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> I'm always glad I'm not following public-html
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  589. # [22:43] <Hixie> wtf
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  591. # [22:43] <Hixie> i have a sqlite table
  592. # [22:44] <Hixie> it has a column whose values are all TRUE
  593. # [22:44] <Hixie> i do a select on that table with a GROUP BY clause, and select the aforementioned column
  594. # [22:44] <Hixie> the result set has that column with the value NULL
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  596. # [22:47] <Velmont> grrrrreat! Sure they're all TRUE?
  597. # [22:47] <Hixie> yes
  598. # [22:47] <Hixie> i've never set them, and i only just added the column with default true
  599. # [22:48] <Velmont> A+ stuff. I'd guess either a very strange behaviour or a good old bug. -- From what I've heard about SQLite it might actually be the first one...
  600. # [22:52] <Hixie> hm, i wonder what it's value actually is
  601. # [22:52] <Hixie> it returns TRUE
  602. # [22:52] <Hixie> but sqlite doesn't have a TRUE value...
  603. # [22:52] <Hixie> ok i replaced whatever values it had with 1 and now it works
  604. # [22:52] * Hixie decides to move on in blissful ignorance
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  612. # Session Close: Sun Feb 26 00:00:00 2012

The end :)