/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-26 / end

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  12. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Object.defineProperty(String.prototype, "foo", {get: function(){"use strict"; print(typeof this);}}); "foo".foo; --- why is that object, and not string? 10.4.3 passes thisArg along directly, after 8.7.1 has invoked [[Call]] with the primitive value…
  13. # [00:58] <gsnedders> V8 claims string, SM/Carakan claim object.
  14. # [00:58] <gsnedders> I'm claiming SM/Carakan bug…
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  20. # [01:11] <Dashiva> gsnedders: You could look at the SM/Carakan source code and see if there's any explicit mention of thisArg
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  33. # [01:44] <gsnedders> V8 never wraps primitive, SM/Carakan always do.
  34. # [01:44] <gsnedders> JSC follows SM/Carakan
  35. # [01:49] <bga> heh use strict :(
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  83. # [06:25] <kennyluck> Does anyone have an idea what language this mail on www-archive is in? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Feb/0016
  84. # [06:26] <zewt> rot13?
  85. # [06:38] <kennyluck> Interesting, haven't heard of that. (It turns out that this mail is about W3C process lol)
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  120. # [09:54] <hsivonen> kennyluck: I wonder if a cleartext version of that one is going to appear on The Björn Höhrmann Project
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  122. # [10:02] <annevk> you can use http://www.rot13.com/ or some such to decode
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  124. # [10:02] <annevk> I should prolly update http://thebjoernhoehrmannproject.org/ with a pointer
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  163. # [12:53] <Velmont> annevk: Wat is that site?
  164. # [12:59] <annevk> collection of epic emails written by Björn Höhrmann
  165. # [12:59] <annevk> well, pointers to them
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  186. # [15:24] <bga> http://www.coverity.com/library/pdf/coverity-scan-2011-open-source-integrity-report.pdf
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  198. # [15:55] <kennyluck> Does Björn Höhrmann write in rot13 often?
  199. # [15:56] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  200. # [15:56] <Philip`> Ab
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  203. # [16:08] <bga> i wonder if anyone uses torrent client of Opera, remove it or make better
  204. # [16:09] * Philip` doesn't see the intended value of using one that's built in to the browser
  205. # [16:13] <zewt> torrent client in a browser is onion-level bloat
  206. # [16:14] <zewt> "fuck everything, we're putting in a torrent client" http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades,11056/
  207. # [16:17] <jgraham> To be fair, I never notice the torrent client. Well I guess I noticed it the one time I downloaded a linux distro or something over torrent
  208. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> Philip++
  209. # [16:18] <bga> zewt i uses most of functional of Opera, rss/mail, irc, browser and may be even will use torrent if it will work :)
  210. # [16:18] <Ms2ger> Opera's torrent never worked for me either :(
  211. # [16:18] * gsnedders has used it, because he almost never downloads torrents and can't be bothered getting another client
  212. # [16:19] <jgraham> Of course if it is broken it sucks, but calling it bloat when it has no UI is a bit absurd
  213. # [16:20] <gsnedders> It has UI. It has a whole two dialogs.
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  215. # [16:20] <gsnedders> And a menu item.
  216. # [16:20] <zewt> so now feature bloat only applies to UI? heh
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  218. # [16:20] <Philip`> Torrents are usually large files, so the time it takes to start up an external torrent client (or copy-and-paste a URL into an rtorrent command line or whatever) is generally relatively trivial, in contrast to e.g. normal HTTP downloads which benefit from the browser handling them, so I've never been lazy enough to use it
  219. # [16:21] <jgraham> Where's the menu item?
  220. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Oh, it appears it doesn't exist any more
  221. # [16:22] <gsnedders> There used to be one in the Tools menu.
  222. # [16:22] <jgraham> zewt: Well I hardly imagine it is consuming many resources when you're not using it
  223. # [16:22] <jgraham> So it's hard to know what metric your using
  224. # [16:22] <jgraham> *you're
  225. # [16:23] <jgraham> But I don't think it is bloat by any metric I can think of
  226. # [16:23] <zewt> "features that don't belong in a browser", i'd expect people here to know what "bloat" means ...
  227. # [16:23] <jgraham> How do you define "belong in a browser"?
  228. # [16:23] <jgraham> Is handling ftp bloat?
  229. # [16:23] <zewt> irc sure as hell is
  230. # [16:23] <zewt> heh
  231. # [16:24] <gsnedders> Gopher?
  232. # [16:24] <zewt> that's just a time portal
  233. # [16:24] <divya> hahaha
  234. # [16:24] <jgraham> Well I'm not going to defend all of Opera's UI, but torrents seem like a particularly strange choice to attack because they seem exactly analogous to ftp
  235. # [16:25] <zewt> torrents are (usually) used for large file downloads; browsers have never handled those worth anything
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  237. # [16:27] <zewt> though the extent that's still true is surprising--Chrome, in 2012, won't resume interrupted downloads
  238. # [16:27] <bga> zewt but if browser has support of download resume?
  239. # [16:27] <jgraham> Right, they don't make great ftp clients either. But if you are a typical user you probably don't care so much about having a top notch client as about being able to get at content without having to have a collection of geeky tools
  240. # [16:28] <jgraham> (primarily because you don't understand the concept of protocols anyway and don't really see why some files would have to be downloaded in one program and some in another)
  241. # [16:29] <zewt> torrents are inherently hard for people who don't understand them, because the whole "let it keep running" thing is a bit hard to manage
  242. # [16:29] <Velmont> Yes. I like the torrent client, -- I've used it to download big files, -- a distro and a movie once before.
  243. # [16:30] <Velmont> And from what I've heard, features that isn't used isn't activated at all, so they don't really bind up computer resources.
  244. # [16:30] <Velmont> But the problem is ofc if they require attention and thus human resources at Opera in order to maintain.
  245. # [16:31] <jgraham> zewt: the people who are going to be running it in a browser are never going to want to do that anyway
  246. # [16:31] <zewt> Velmont: that's a very poor excuse against bloat
  247. # [16:31] <zewt> jgraham: then they shouldn't be using torrents, because if tons of people don't do that, the system breaks
  248. # [16:31] <Velmont> zewt: And Opera download is smaller than all other main browsers.
  249. # [16:31] <zewt> opera does allow files to seed ... right?
  250. # [16:31] <bga> Velmont including ed2k in Opera will be good too
  251. # [16:32] <Velmont> bga: I don't know what that is. It has to be somewhat useful.
  252. # [16:32] <bga> big p2p network
  253. # [16:32] <Velmont> zewt: Nope. It works very well without. When you're downloading, you are uploading at the same time.
  254. # [16:33] <zewt> uh
  255. # [16:33] <zewt> okay opera just lost a serious chunk of points
  256. # [16:33] <jgraham> zewt: The idea that a system that is primarilly used for copyright infringement is subject to a tradegy of the commons is hillarious to me
  257. # [16:34] <zewt> jgraham: that's a pretty poorly-disguised excuse for an implementation (seemingly) willfully breaking a system
  258. # [16:34] <Velmont> zewt: BitTorrent helps against spikes in people who want the resource. -- So you would always put up a seed-box just as you put up a web server, you have that seeding at all times, just as your web server. -- And when 1 person downloads, BT doesn't help. But if 2 people do, it helps.
  259. # [16:35] <Velmont> Also, if you're suddenly slashdotted or whatever, like nrkbeta was with their huge raw video files from bergensbanen, then bittorrent really really helps.
  260. # [16:35] <zewt> Velmont: i know how bittorrent works; and if you think it's okay for a client to, by default, not perform seeding, then you do not
  261. # [16:35] <Velmont> And for granda, it's very nice to be able to just click that link and have it be downloaded without extra noise.
  262. # [16:36] <zewt> yes, nice for them, and screw everyone else, right?
  263. # [16:36] <Velmont> zewt: ...? Why? Nothing wrong in that. - You're bascially helping with the load. Using less bandwidth. -- It's better than the alternative; having a normal HTTP connection, then you (that are hosting) have to provide *all* the bandwidth.
  264. # [16:37] <zewt> but many people serving files with bittorrent are using it specifically because they don't personally *have* the bandwidth it would take to use HTTP; if they had to use HTTP, they wouldn't serve the file at all
  265. # [16:37] <zewt> this is a fundamental purpose of bittorrent: allowing people to share files that they would otherwise be unable to
  266. # [16:38] <Velmont> zewt: Opera does in fact seed after it's finished downloading. -- I'm just saying that using bittorrent is better than http, even for when people don't seed.
  267. # [16:39] <gsnedders> Opera seeds until it is stopped.
  268. # [16:39] <zewt> Velmont: well, you just said that it didn't, and that was the entire conversation we just had
  269. # [16:39] <divya> fwiw etsy uses bittorrent to populate their search indexes across all their servers
  270. # [16:39] <zewt> troll? heh
  271. # [16:40] <divya> http://codeascraft.etsy.com/2012/01/23/solr-bittorrent-index-replication/
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  273. # [16:42] <zewt> divya: not the most ideal protocol for general-purpose syncing, though
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  275. # [16:43] <zewt> if you have one big file then it'll probably work (and that's probably what they're doing), but as soon as you add or remove a file I think it'd end up resending everything
  276. # [16:44] <divya> i dont think you were discussing that :)
  277. # [16:44] <zewt> what? heh
  278. # [16:45] <Velmont> zewt: Oh, shit, sorry, I wasn't answering what I thought I was.
  279. # [16:47] <Velmont> zewt: Ahh, I see, I was saying nope to this -> 16:23 < zewt> jgraham: then they shouldn't be using torrents, because if tons of people don't do that, the system breaks
  280. # [16:51] <zewt> (that was in response to the notion of "most people downloading in a browser don't want to seed anyway")
  281. # [16:53] <zewt> (most people transferring with HTTP don't want to perform TCP exponential backoff, either, but they should anyway :)
  282. # [16:55] <bga> gsnedders btw may be its time to replace your torrent implementation to libtorrent?
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  284. # [16:58] <Velmont> bga: And GPL Opera in the process? :P
  285. # [16:59] <bga> ok. another modern torrent lib w/o copyleft
  286. # [17:00] <bga> but currently i try to download torrent from thepriratebay using Opera and fail
  287. # [17:01] <Velmont> bga: They only use Magnet.
  288. # [17:01] <Velmont> bga: Which Opera doesn't support. -- Opera's torrent support go quite a way back. Then DHT was not as much used as today.
  289. # [17:03] <bga> added random torrent from isohunt, waiting
  290. # [17:04] <Velmont> bga: If they have a functioning tracker, it should work. -- Although the best test would be to download a torrent of Ubuntu, Fedora or something from their own sites.
  291. # [17:05] <Velmont> Normally sites that use Torrent for other stuff than warez doesn't need DHT. -- Opera is definately not very good at downloading from such sites. :-)
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  293. # [17:06] <bga> ubuntu torrent work
  294. # [17:07] <bga> Velmont that why i ask to replace Opera torrent to modern
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  306. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> If people were still looking for reasons to dislike ECMA: you can't submit tests to the JS test suite if you're not employed by a member
  307. # [18:25] <gsnedders> (The testsuite is currently entirely the IE tests and Sputnik)
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  314. # [18:43] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Pretty sure they're not
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  316. # [18:44] <zewt> Ms2ger: because everyone knows the problem with standards is it's too easy to get tests, right?
  317. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> Indeed
  318. # [18:44] <zewt> better make it harder so they're not inundated with them
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  320. # [18:45] <jgraham> Presumably the idea is that if anyone could submit tests there would be less reason to become a member since you would have less control over whether your implementation was [perceived|certified] as conforming
  321. # [18:46] <Philip`> Maybe it simplifies copyright/patent handling, and they didn't imagine any non-members would care enough to submit tests so it wasn't worth any effort supporting that situation?
  322. # [18:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's for patent reasons, similar IP policies to submitting stuff for W3C specs, just it also applies to all ECMA activities, inc. testsuites
  323. # [18:47] * Quits: ferdinandsalis (~ferdinand@chello212186105068.11.vie.surfer.at) (Remote host closed the connection)
  324. # [18:47] <gsnedders> Basically, it's pre-existing ECMA rules and changing the rules of an organization like ECMA is far harder than one like the W3C
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  327. # [18:49] <Philip`> With OpenGL, I believe you can't even see or run the conformance tests unless you're a member *and* pay an extra ~$10K fee
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  329. # [18:50] <zewt> "open"gl
  330. # [18:52] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  331. # [18:53] <zewt> been trying to at least get it in the minds of the webgl guys to stop versioning specs, not really expecting much success, though
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  348. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, so launder the tests through someone employed by Mozilla?
  349. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Meh, I don't care that much
  350. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Or get Mozilla to employ you for $1/year.
  351. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Hah
  352. # [19:54] <zewt> if they don't want tests that badly...
  353. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> You could promise to give it back as a tax-deductible donation if they didn't want to spare the dollar.
  354. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> Actually, I wonder if you could arrange to have a charity pay you $X/year for something and then make a binding agreement to give it all back as a donation.
  355. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> Hmm, X can't be too large or else it will exceed the 20% limit for deductions or whatever.
  356. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> But if X is just the right size, it might allow you to itemize when you otherwise couldn't.
  357. # [19:56] * AryehGregor should consult a tax attorney if he wants to pursue this scheme
  358. # [19:56] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Set up an alternative testsuite to route around the damage?
  359. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> See my bitbucket account
  360. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Is the official test suite actually any good?
  361. # [19:57] <jgraham> AryehGregor: yeah, not bad
  362. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> We should really be testing ES stuff in web test suites anyway. Every host object should be tested to make sure stuff like Object.getPrototypeOf() works.
  363. # [19:57] <jgraham> Better than the official HTML 5 testsuite at least
  364. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> idlharness.js does a bunch of that, in fact.
  365. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> jgraham, you're not setting a very high bar there
  366. # [19:58] <jgraham> Well, no :)
  367. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> . . . is there an official HTML5 test suite other than canvas, btoa()/atob(), reflection, and testing that "src" in document.createElement("video")?
  368. # [19:58] <jgraham> Last time I looked, which was several years ago, it was broad but shallow
  369. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> I'd say getElementsByClassName, but I stole those for DOM4
  370. # [19:59] <jgraham> In that it tried to cover all the cases from the spec but didn't have the kind of test that real implementations fail
  371. # [19:59] <jgraham> (which the Mozilla unofficial testsuite does have)
  372. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> Our regression tests, or?
  373. # [19:59] <jgraham> Or rather the kind of test they fail after they
  374. # [19:59] <jgraham> claim to implement a feature
  375. # [19:59] <jgraham> Ms2ger: yes
  376. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> I'd hope those are any good :)
  377. # [20:00] <jgraham> Ms2ger: well they are written in the most hideous way :)
  378. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> I won't deny that :)
  379. # [20:00] <jgraham> But they are not entirely unsuccessful at finding bugs
  380. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, sure, dataset :)
  381. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> I found a lot of bugs in non-Gecko browsers so far with Gecko's transition tests.
  382. # [20:01] <jgraham> Probably less good than "does facebook chat work" though :)
  383. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> Only a couple in Gecko, unsurprisingly.
  384. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> Didn't someone review some of my tests?
  385. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> Usually I find more Gecko bugs than that when I write the tests from scratch.
  386. # [20:01] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It depends if you count reviewed tests or submitted tests
  387. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> And hey, Ms2ger, some tests actually failed with my RangeException removal.
  388. # [20:01] <jgraham> ]If you count submitted tests we are getting there]
  389. # [20:01] <gsnedders> It still the case that Test262 is broad but not deep.
  390. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> 26829 ERROR TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | /tests/content/base/test/test_bug454326.html | Didn't get BAD_BOUNDARYPOINTS_ERR exception! - got 11, expected 1
  391. # [20:01] <gsnedders> Better now than it was before, but still not great.
  392. # [20:01] <gsnedders> *It is
  393. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, indeed, one test :)
  394. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> And some more code you need to remove
  395. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Right.
  396. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Yay for patches that remove lines on net.
  397. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> 40822 ERROR TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | /tests/dom/tests/mochitest/w3c/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/test_Range-mutations.html | Finished test
  398. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  399. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> ?
  400. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> I think I can make that error message more helpful :)
  401. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Timeout, probably
  402. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, so I've been getting errors like "JavaScript error: http://mochi.test:8888/tests/dom/tests/mochitest/w3c/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/test_Range-cloneRange.html, line 155: paras is undefined" :/
  403. # [20:11] * Joins: pflock (~Jakiw@gtng-4db056b6.pool.mediaWays.net)
  404. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Is common.js being properly included?
  405. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> That's where paras is defined.
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  407. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  408. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  409. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> And it's not being run in a different scope or something? paras should be a global.
  410. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> Ah
  411. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> So, Tests.prototype.setup bails out because this.phase >= this.phases.HAVE_RESULTS
  412. # [20:15] * Quits: gwicke_ (~gabriel@2.215.60.223) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  414. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> It works when you run not as mochitests, though?
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  416. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> Are things being deferred till onload by the mochitest framework or something like that?
  417. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Shouldn't be...
  418. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> How does content/base/test/test_bug498240.html possibly pass with my patch? It tests that e instanceof RangeException.
  419. # [20:22] * Ms2ger adds some more logging
  420. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> No, it doesn't, it has a function that runs that test but the function is never called.
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  423. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Indeed
  424. # [20:28] <zewt> need some kind of automatic code coverage test for ... tests
  425. # [20:28] <zewt> just for "you probably meant this to do something" warnings
  426. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> zewt, nah, the calls are commented out
  427. # [20:29] <zewt> Ms2ger: right, a coverage test would flag that
  428. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> This was intentional :
  429. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> :)
  430. # [20:30] <zewt> right, the coverage would make you comment out the code that's never being called as well, so it's clear
  431. # [20:30] <zewt> (of course it's not exactly easy to make a magic coverage test--you're always going to have error paths that will never be called)
  432. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> You should test error paths too.
  433. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Unless maybe they're asserts or something.
  434. # [20:35] <zewt> well, error paths in tests are a bit hard to test, since they'll usually be "this should never happen" things, i think
  435. # [20:38] <Philip`> Test the tests by running them against a mock implementation of the tested API which intentionally fails
  436. # [20:39] <zewt> let's see how complicated we can make writing tests :P
  437. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Let's ask ECMA
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  441. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, who'd you say I should ask for review on this patch?
  442. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> RangeException? sicking
  443. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Okay.
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  452. # [21:11] <Yuhong> I am beginning to think HTML5 even as a buzzword is a misnomer.
  453. # [21:11] <Yuhong> https://plus.google.com/113127438179392830442/posts/Rh17MhQrnud
  454. # [21:12] <Yuhong> http://geekmontage.com/funny-picture-how-to-tell-html-from-html5/
  455. # [21:14] <divya> Yuhong: the project is almost going live http://h5bp.github.com/caniuse/
  456. # [21:16] <Yuhong> Not my point. Why do you think "users don't talk in features"?
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  458. # [21:19] <divya> coz they dont care?
  459. # [21:20] <divya> for most 'users' a browser is a means to an end, facebook, twitter google.
  460. # [21:22] <Yuhong> I am thinking of people talking about HTML5 as a single thing.
  461. # [21:23] <Yuhong> When it is not, as shown in the above two links.
  462. # [21:24] <divya> html5 is merely a time portal to modern times.
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  475. # [22:16] <Velmont> divya: Hmmmm. But is there any way to say which API? Like, OK Chrome supports IndexedDB, and Firefox as well, but only Firefox 10 supports the new API.
  476. # [22:18] <divya> Velmont: yeah basically thats what it returns info for http://api.html5please.com/indexeddb.json?readable
  477. # [22:18] <divya> Velmont: rather not quite as refined
  478. # [22:20] <Velmont> Yes. Because this one would OK you if you use Chrome, or if you use Firefox older than 10, then.
  479. # [22:21] <divya> yeah this is from http://caniuse.com/indexeddb
  480. # [22:21] <divya> there is no way currently to monitor old syntax and new one.
  481. # [22:22] <divya> the bane of prefixes? :/
  482. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Not really
  483. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> The bane of unfinished technology
  484. # [22:22] <divya> yeah or that :)
  485. # [22:22] <divya> i would consider this a 'support exists' kind of thing
  486. # [22:22] <divya> and it is up to the dev to offer the kind of support that is required.
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  489. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> I guess you could treat it as "current IDB" and only mark Fx>=10 as supporting...
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  493. # [22:41] <Velmont> Yea.
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  498. # [23:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: yo yo
  499. # [23:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: why does http://platform.html5.org/ link to a dated version of XML?
  500. # [23:01] <MikeSmith> hey
  501. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> dunno
  502. # [23:02] <annevk> because nobody implements the 5th?
  503. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  504. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> probably
  505. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  506. # [23:02] <annevk> I sort of think we should implement the 5th, but fair enough
  507. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> I'm happy to change it
  508. # [23:02] <zewt> heh, a cute and bizarre firefox bug: i now have a cursor, everywhere
  509. # [23:02] <annevk> I saw Liam mentioning it in the "living standard" thread on G+
  510. # [23:02] <annevk> there's not really a good argument either way here I think
  511. # [23:03] <annevk> until everyone implements the 5th or everyone decides not to
  512. # [23:03] <annevk> or everyone implements XML-ER and the argument is made obsolete :)
  513. # [23:03] <annevk> booyah
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  519. # [23:21] <smaug____> who decides what goes to chromium/chrome?
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  533. # Session Close: Mon Feb 27 00:00:01 2012

The end :)