/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-02-29 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 29 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <annevk> consistency with fillStyle, miterLimit etc. that is
4. # [00:00] <heycam> it might be worth thinking about a type -- maybe even call it Array! -- in IDL that means just a reference to a JS Array
5. # [00:00] <Hixie> annevk: except it's not really consistent with those
6. # [00:00] <Hixie> annevk: if it clones on setting
7. # [00:00] <heycam> but that you're responsible for describing when the values get read out of it
8. # [00:00] <Hixie> annevk: but returns a reference
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10. # [00:01] <Hixie> abarth: yt?
11. # [00:03] <annevk> Hixie: it seems somewhat unlikely many people will make that observation though unless they look at the specifics
12. # [00:03] <annevk> though if we really think that's a bad pattern we should add something to Web IDL...
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15. # [00:04] <Hixie> abarth: if i want to encrypt something over the wire (say, video), is the best option AES256? I'm looking for something cryptographically sound, with low CPU requirements to decode, low memory requirements to decode, that can be done in streaming mode; i don't need integrity checking or authentication
16. # [00:07] <Hixie> also not worried about side-channel attacks over the wire (e.g. in particular discovering the file size is not an issue)
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32. # [00:51] <Hixie> Philip`: other than compatibility, can you think of any reason why we shouldn't treat zero-length subpaths as points that get a line cap on either end? (for lineCap of round and square; butt would still not show anything)
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34. # [00:53] <Philip`> Hixie: What would be the orientation of square caps?
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36. # [00:55] <Hixie> interesting question
37. # [00:56] <Hixie> i guess we'd just define it as x-axis aligned, pre-transformation
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40. # [00:56] <Philip`> That sounds arbitrary
41. # [00:56] <Hixie> completely so
42. # [00:57] <Hixie> http://home.comcast.net/~urbanjost/canvas/vogle4.html is a page asking for this
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44. # [01:00] <Hixie> wow, svg has a _lot_ of prose for text along a path
45. # [01:01] <Hixie> i'll have to study this closer to see how much of this i actually need
46. # [01:01] <Hixie> my naive impression is that this is not as complicated a problem as the svg text suggests...
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48. # [01:04] <astearns> no idea how SVG compares, but the text-on-path implementations I've worked on were both crazily complicated
49. # [01:09] <Hixie> don't you "just" draw the text on a straight line, figure out all the advances and the total width, then figure out the width of the path, then figure out the alignment, then "just" start at one end and put all the glyphs down, tangential to the path at the point, advancing the point by the advance you calculated earlier for each glyph?
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51. # [01:11] <zewt> do you warp the individual glyph boxes along the path?
52. # [01:12] <Hixie> no
53. # [01:12] <Hixie> at least not in svg
54. # [01:12] <astearns> tangential to the path is one method, but it tends to produce collisions for concave paths
55. # [01:12] <zewt> sounds like it'd be sort of fugly if it doesn't
56. # [01:13] <astearns> glyphs can be unmodified (in which case you probably need to flex the spacing depending on the path characteristics)
57. # [01:13] <astearns> or the glyphs can be transformed to match path characteristics
58. # [01:16] <Hixie> for transforming the glyphs, i think we should "just" provide a warping method that takes on path and warps it along another path
59. # [01:17] <Hixie> so you would draw the text straight, then curve it along another path
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61. # [01:18] <abarth> Hixie: AES128 should fine
62. # [01:18] <zewt> couldn't you almost do that by hand, if there were a few basic hooks into glyph metrics?
63. # [01:18] <abarth> Hixie: more specifically, AES128-CTR
64. # [01:19] <Hixie> abarth: if i take a key as input, any harm in accepting 128, 192, and 256?
65. # [01:19] <abarth> no harm
66. # [01:19] <Hixie> zewt: there's no hooks into the path data currently
67. # [01:19] <Hixie> abarth: cool, thanks
68. # [01:20] <zewt> i suppose warping actual glyph rendering might just be really hard to implement, if font engines simply don't support doing that
69. # [01:22] <Hixie> abarth: hm, i suppose AES-CTR means i can't do arbitrary seeking
70. # [01:23] <zewt> iirc, it does allow that
71. # [01:23] <abarth> you can
72. # [01:23] <Hixie> abarth: oh ok
73. # [01:23] <abarth> you just set the counter to whatever block you want
74. # [01:23] <Hixie> k
75. # [01:23] <zewt> pick your block number, encrypt it with AES, use that as the mask
76. # [01:23] <abarth> it's CBC that doesn't allow seeking
77. # [01:25] <zewt> http://tavmjong.free.fr/blog/?p=249
78. # [01:25] <zewt> sort of neat
79. # [01:28] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
80. # [01:29] <heycam> Hixie, SVG currently does glyphs tangential to the path, and yes it is kind of fugly with anything but gentle slopes
81. # [01:30] <heycam> zewt, yeah would be cool to have actual warping of text like that
82. # [01:30] <heycam> hard though :(
83. # [01:30] <zewt> heycam: if implementors are willing to implement it
84. # [01:30] <zewt> no point if they're going to throw up their arms and give up
85. # [01:30] <heycam> yep
86. # [01:30] <zewt> i wonder how it would look if you rendered the text to a large backbuffer, warp the buffer and then downscale
87. # [01:30] <heycam> I tried writing a simple JS thing to subdivide the paths for the glyphs and warp them, ended up being horribly slow
88. # [01:31] <heycam> zewt, that's an option I guess
89. # [01:31] <heycam> could work on the gpu too
90. # [01:31] <zewt> it wouldn't antialias/grid align nicely, but that's probably not going to happen anyway
91. # [01:31] <divya> hsivonen: w.r.t api.html5please.com it is definitely not complete
92. # [01:31] <divya> hsivonen: only reason UA detection exists is to return a smaller set of recommended browsers.
93. # [01:31] <Hixie> zewt: again, for that kind of thing i don't think it makes sense to special-case text
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95. # [01:31] <Hixie> zewt: we should just add path warping
96. # [01:31] <divya> e.g. no point returning IE for Mac/Linux users.
97. # [01:32] <divya> hsivonen: or returning mobile browsers for desktop users.
98. # [01:32] <heycam> Hixie, "just"
99. # [01:32] <divya> hsivonen: also the point is to get out of the way of users when feature is supported and api is still called.
100. # [01:32] <Hixie> heycam: as opposed to adding path warping and text warping
101. # [01:32] <zewt> but if you can do that, is there a point to having a weaker, "non-warping" text warp in the first place?
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103. # [01:32] <heycam> Hixie, ok, same level of difficulty though
104. # [01:32] <Hixie> heycam: same code, even, yeah
105. # [01:33] <Hixie> zewt: this isn't text warping, it's text placement along a line that just isn't straight
106. # [01:33] <zewt> but when would you want to do that, if you have another API that can do full-blown warping
107. # [01:34] <zewt> provided that implementation is good enough that it never looks worse; that, I don't know
108. # [01:34] <Hixie> looking around me, i see a lot of text drawn on very slight curves, that doens't look warped
109. # [01:34] <zewt> but would they be worse if the glyphs themselves did warp? (i don't know the answer)
110. # [01:35] <Hixie> hard to say
111. # [01:35] <Hixie> the api would presumably be rather more complicated
112. # [01:35] <Hixie> and it's not clear to me implementations are up for it
113. # [01:35] <Hixie> but i'm certainly open to api suggestions and implementor commitments :-)
114. # [01:36] <heycam> Hixie, btw if you come across things you want to reference from SVG 1.1 (like say glyph-along-path placement) that you find are badly specced or difficult to reference, let me know and I'll track them to fix in SVG 2
115. # [01:36] <Hixie> heycam: k
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117. # [01:36] <Hixie> heycam: i dunno if text along a path i badly specced, i haven't tried speccing it yet. it just seems rather long and i can't work out why :-)
118. # [01:37] <heycam> at a high level the algorithm is simple… just move along the path the advance distance between each glyph, place the glyph tangential to the path half way through its advance
119. # [01:37] <heycam> there's probably a bunch of edge cases for path discontinuities
120. # [01:42] <Hixie> bbl
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136. # [02:52] <zewt> exhausted with circular vtt "roll-ups" thread
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178. # [05:59] <atdt> anyone alive?
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197. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> atdt: hey
198. # [06:58] <atdt> hi mike
199. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> hi
200. # [06:58] <atdt> so i have this idea i'd like to propose, but before spamming the mailing list i thought i'd run it by some people here, to see if it has legs or not
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202. # [06:58] <atdt> could i run it by you quickly?
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204. # [07:02] <atdt> well, i'll just explain quickly rather than ask. the idea has to do with <a> elements. it's very common practice to have links that have the URL they point to as their text node.
205. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> yeah
206. # [07:03] <atdt> the way they're written now is like this: <a href="http://www.example.com/">http://www.example.com/</a>
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208. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> right
209. # [07:03] <atdt> that's rather ugly, imo. it'd be nicer to do one of the following:
210. # [07:03] <atdt> <a>http://www.example.com/</a>
211. # [07:03] <atdt> or <a href>http://www.example.com/</a>
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213. # [07:04] <atdt> the first idea would break the currently specced interpretation of hrefless a tags as being placeholders, but i don't think that use caught on -- i haven't encoutnered it, anyway, and it seems a bit bogus to me
214. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> so do it that way in your source and use JS to transform it in the DOM
215. # [07:05] <atdt> well, you're right that it's easy to do with JS, but i think it's a point in favor, not against (makes it easy to write a polyfill, which i did -- http://jsfiddle.net/atdt/tbSv6/)
216. # [07:06] <atdt> it seems much more expressive, which makes it an attractive candidate for standardization, since it makes code easier to read, IMHO.
217. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> well
218. # [07:07] <atdt> note that current draft of the spec has a huge block of these right at the top: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html :)
219. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> making code easier to read is generally not a high priority or standardization
220. # [07:09] <atdt> that surprises me, since it has been one of the most attractive things about recent revisions to the specs
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222. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> really? like what for example?
223. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> also, what would you expect the behavior to be for <a>foo.html</a>
224. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> or <a>README</a>
225. # [07:10] <atdt> optional quotes around attribute values, optional closing tags for certain elements
226. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> those are not new
227. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> that is just HTML
228. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> as it always has been
229. # [07:12] <atdt> ok, the leaner prologue. maybe that's not new, either.
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231. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> no, that's new
232. # [07:12] <atdt> i simply think that the way the <a> tag was designed reflects an earlier relationship with URLs wherein they were presumed to be unfriendly or barely-friendly
233. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> and <meta charset=utf-8> is new too
234. # [07:13] <atdt> so it was implicitly presumed to be ugly to show them
235. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> eh?
236. # [07:13] <atdt> er, let me try that again
237. # [07:15] <atdt> i can't presume to know what exactly tim berners-lee et al had in their head, but i suppose that they couldn't imagine that http URIs will become as common as they did on the surface of things (business cards, other printed matter, etc.) but it's common now for the url to be not just an low-level implementation detail but part of the "human" identity of certain sites or pages
238. # [07:15] <atdt> earlier today i noticed that GNU links to themselves as "GNU.org" in lots of places
239. # [07:16] <atdt> so i take the <a> element to reflect this prejudice: you never want to just show a url; you always want to describe it in plain prose
240. # [07:17] <atdt> but i don't think that captures the particular use i'm describing, which is very (very) widespread
241. # [07:17] <atdt> did that make sense?
242. # [07:19] <atdt> regarding your earlier question (regarding <a>README</a> and the likes), i propose that the textContents of <a> elements with a null (absent) href attribute be interpreted as the href
243. # [07:21] <atdt> i don't remember encountering bare <a> tags in the wild. they're currently allowed as "placeholders", but as i mentioned earlier, i think that's bogus. (should we have <img> for placeholder images, etc.?)
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245. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> I'm sure there you'd find plenty of href-less <a> elements in Web content if you went looking
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247. # [07:23] <atdt> i did in a casual way over the past couple of days and couldn't find any
248. # [07:24] <atdt> but even so: they're not functional
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250. # [07:24] <atdt> so this wouldn't be breaking them
251. # [07:24] * smaug_____ is now known as smaug____
252. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> yeah, your proposal would make them functional
253. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> sure it would break them
254. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> it would change their existing behavior to something the authors didn't intend them to have
255. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> anyway, as far as taking this to a mailing list, I think that'd be fine if you're just interested in having a philosophical discussion about it
256. # [07:25] <smaug____> isn't <a name="foo"> pretty common
257. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> but you are going to find that browser implementors have zero interest
258. # [07:26] <atdt> smaug____: yeah, you'd exempt them
259. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> smaug____: yeah but I assume atdt would say that the presence of the name attribute would cause the text content to be not handled as a URL
260. # [07:27] <atdt> right
261. # [07:27] <smaug____> strange special cases
262. # [07:27] <smaug____> well, not that strange
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264. # [07:27] <smaug____> but makes the "API" behave a bit strangely
265. # [07:28] <atdt> not that strange. in ff and chrome unstyled <a>foo</a> aren't underlined, but both <a href=...> and <a name=...> are
266. # [07:28] <atdt> so there is already some distinction between links that point at something and links that aren't really links
267. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> smaug____: multi-column support broken in nightly
268. # [07:30] <smaug____> MikeSmith: hmm, do you have nested multicolumn ?
269. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> no
270. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> http://platform.html5.org/
271. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> updating now to see if that fixes it..
272. # [07:31] <smaug____> atdt: we're changing web platform all the time so much, that I wish at least some things stay stable, like <a> handling :)
273. # [07:31] <smaug____> MikeSmith: have you filed a bug?
274. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> smaug____: no, will check first to see if anybody else has
275. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> I would be very surprised if it hasn't been reported already
276. # [07:32] <smaug____> multicolumn is used rarely
277. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> atdt: btw, <a href> is the same as <a href="">
278. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> smaug____: really? I thought all the designers loved it
279. # [07:33] <atdt> i use it :)
280. # [07:33] <smaug____> I could be wrong, but I think it isn't that common yet
281. # [07:33] <smaug____> roc would know better, but he is on vacation
282. # [07:34] <atdt> smaug____: well, i don't have an answer for implementors' headaches, obviously. but this would standardize something around which there are currently many ugly hacks
283. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> oh yeah, I heard roc was in the UK
284. # [07:35] <smaug____> MikeSmith: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731516
285. # [07:35] <smaug____> (sorry, didn't remember your bugzilla email)
286. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> smaug____: thanks
287. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> mike@w3.org
288. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> will cc myself there
289. # [07:37] <smaug____> atdt: it is even more web devs headache, if the basic building blocks keep changing
290. # [07:38] <atdt> smaug____: 99.99999% of <a> tags won't be affected. the fraction of a percent that do would acquire a behavior where there wasn't one before, which isn't as bad as all that
291. # [07:40] <atdt> and it's very easy to add support to <a>http://gnu.org/</a> via a js polyfill -- not sure if you saw my link earlier http://jsfiddle.net/atdt/tbSv6/
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293. # [07:40] <smaug____> MikeSmith: you could add "don't use these web technologies" to your list
294. # [07:40] <smaug____> Sync XHR in window context
295. # [07:41] <smaug____> or perhaps W3C or WhatWG could have such list
296. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
297. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> though there is smaug____: http://html5please.com/
298. # [07:41] <atdt> and finally, if you don't use a polyfill and just have a <a>http://www.example.com/</a> in a browser that doesn't implement the spec i'm proposing you would be left with something quite usable still: a link you can copy and paste.
299. # [07:41] <smaug____> Sync XHR, perhaps localStorage
300. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, localStorage
301. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> smaug____: I'm editing https://github.com/h5bp/html5please/blob/master/posts/localstorage.md now
302. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> what should I add?
303. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> I don't know if "race condition" is the right way to explain it in this context
304. # [07:46] <smaug____> warning about using sync API
305. # [07:46] <smaug____> the situation is not good though
306. # [07:47] <smaug____> since IndexedDB isn't available everywhere yet
307. # [07:47] <smaug____> but UI thread shouldn't have sync data fetching APIs
308. # [07:48] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: thx for that, and good call on making a note along those lines.
309. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> oh hey paul_irish
310. # [07:49] <atdt> heyoo paul
311. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> yeah, I will take a shot at the wording and send a pull request
312. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: feel free to change it however you want of course
313. # [07:49] <paul_irish> awesome. atdt, hey ori
314. # [07:49] <paul_irish> certainly.
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316. # [07:52] <atdt> MikeSmith: http://paul.kinlan.me/we-need-to-kill-off-the-localstorage-api "LocalStorage has poor querying capabilities, terrible performance, small storage in many browsers, crazily inconsistent eventing and a nasty habit of locking."
317. # [07:52] <atdt> MikeSmith: i don't know the specifics, unfortunately
318. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
319. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> some of those are implementation shortcomings
320. # [07:52] <smaug____> but the main problem is the API itself
321. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> atdt: thanks for the link
322. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> didn't know Paul had written this up
323. # [07:53] <smaug____> MikeSmith: I assume you've seen this about sync XHR http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wer/archive/2011/08/03/why-you-should-use-xmlhttprequest-asynchronously.aspx
324. # [07:53] <smaug____> 8.4% is a huge number
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326. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> smaug____: had not seen that article
327. # [07:54] <paul_irish> also http://updates.html5rocks.com/2012/01/Getting-Rid-of-Synchronous-XHRs
328. # [07:55] <paul_irish> oh mike knows that one.
329. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: yeah, the bugs there
330. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> mandreel problem
331. # [07:55] <atdt> imho there's something of a missed opportunity with web workers.. most people see them as a source of complexity, suitable for crazy performance hacks
332. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> dunno if the mandreel devs have figured out how to deal with that yet
333. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> Jarred's comment
334. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> "sync XHR still works in Workers (where it belongs). Can you utilize workers and run Mandreel's processing in a worker, and post message notifications on UI updates?"
335. # [07:57] <atdt> but because workers can block without blocking the UI they can actually simplify code because they allow you to write synchronous code
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338. # [07:59] <atdt> smaug____, MikeSmith: regarding the <a> thing i brought up earlier, were you at all persuaded? and do you think this has a snowball's chance in hell if i bring it up on the mailing list? i'm not especially interested in philosophical discussions if they don't stand a chance of having an impact
339. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> atdt: no chance, imho :(
340. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> it's an interesting "what if" kind of idea
341. # [08:00] <smaug____> yeah
342. # [08:01] <smaug____> I don't see it important enough to change the behavior
343. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> the platform has a lot of suboptimal stuff we're stuck with
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345. # [08:02] <atdt> do you think it'd have a better chance if i had some hard data about how common bare <a> tags are?
346. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> atdt: I honestly don't think it would make any difference
347. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> but I think you might be surprised by the data you find
348. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> there probably is already some data out there
349. # [08:04] <atdt> MikeSmith: i'll look, for sheer curiosity if nothing else.
350. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> I mean in some reports
351. # [08:04] <smaug____> atdt: in your case, couldn't you just have <a href="http://foo.fi"></a> and style that a:empty:before { attr(href); }
352. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-hyperlinks/#a
353. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> 3,304,834 out of 3,307,397 a elements have href attributes
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356. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> atdt: so you're right and I'm wrong :)
357. # [08:06] <atdt> 2,563 don't -- but i would bet my liver that the vast majority of those have name attr
358. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, I'm surprised the number is that small
359. # [08:07] <atdt> well, keep in mind that the very fact that bare <a>s aren't really treated as links means that web devs have the habit of implementing dummy links as either <a href="#"> or <a href="javascript:void()">
360. # [08:09] <atdt> MikeSmith: i wonder if their data set is available
361. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: I was thinking about adding links on platform.html5.org to htmlplease, but it seems there are no IDs at htmlplease to link to :(
362. # [08:10] <paul_irish> we have permalinks!
363. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> atdt: I think their data was not publicly available
364. # [08:10] <paul_irish> search for something
365. # [08:10] <paul_irish> and there's a Link to This
366. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: ah, OK
367. # [08:10] <paul_irish> thing
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369. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
370. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> cool
371. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> I shall use that
372. # [08:13] <atdt> anyhow, thanks very much for the useful input, all. i think i'll try to find some more hard data and reassess.
373. # [08:14] <atdt> smaug____: just noticed your suggestion above. yeah, that might do the trick. i'll have to think about it
374. # [08:15] <smaug____> atdt: seems to work in Gecko and Opera
375. # [08:15] <smaug____> old Chrome has problems
376. # [08:15] <smaug____> but that is just an implementation bug
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378. # [08:17] <atdt> smaug____: i don't think i love that idea, because part of my point is precisely that "eponymous" URLs are part of the text flow of the document
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380. # [08:19] <atdt> it looks a bit weird to say "check out our website at <a href="http://gnu.org/"></a>". the style would be necessary for that to make any sense at all.
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382. # [08:30] <atdt> ok, i'm off -- thanks again for the input.
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390. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> smaug____, paul_irish: "As part of keeing things simple, localStorage has a synchronous API that runs on the main UI thread in browsers; as a consequence of that, a race condition can occur if a user has the same site open in multiple windows or tabs running as separate processes. For many applications, that’s never really a problem in practice. But it can cause data corruption—so applications where it’s important to try to ensure
391. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> absolutely no data corruption can occur should instead use a more robust storage mechanism such as IndexedDB."
392. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> man that's a lot of words
393. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> but dunno how to say it with fewer
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398. # [08:58] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: lets go with it
399. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: OK, thanks
400. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> just sent the pull request
401. # [08:59] <paul_irish> :) thank you!
402. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> cheers
403. # [08:59] <smaug____> MikeSmith: even worse problem is that since localStorage is stored in file system, using the API may cause the UI thread to hang if the data isn't in memory
404. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> really?
405. # [08:59] <smaug____> yes
406. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> I didn't know about that one
407. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> wow
408. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> that sucks even worse
409. # [09:00] <smaug____> of course browsers try cache the data in memory when possible
410. # [09:00] <smaug____> try to
411. # [09:00] <zcorpan> do cookies do that also?
412. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> I guess with cookies it's far less data
413. # [09:02] <zcorpan> does indexeddb have an equivalent to sessionStorage?
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420. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: I think http://html5please.com/#localstorage should take me down to the actual localstorage section/article
421. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> rather than the top of the page
422. # [09:10] <paul_irish> i agree with that
423. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> will raise an issue
424. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> especially that's harsh for mobile
425. # [09:11] <paul_irish> yeah file it.
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430. # [09:41] <hsivonen> heh. Hixie and I thought about the untrusted CDN case in *very* similar ways
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433. # [09:43] <annevk> zewt: Encoding spec should define the encoder for UTF-8
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477. # [11:52] * zcorpan adds status boxes to http://simon.html5.org/specs/quirks-mode
478. # [11:52] <zcorpan> maybe i should move it to dvcs.w3.org
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487. # [12:33] <izhak> What encoding is used by mozilla's nsString internally? Or there's no encoding there, just a 4byte sequense?
488. # [12:34] <izhak> And yet, what encoding is suggested to use by whatwg for internal needs? Say, when storing parsed tokens, for storing parsed tree and so on.
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490. # [12:35] <hsivonen> izhak: (potentially invalid) UTF-16
491. # [12:36] <hsivonen> izhak: that is, it's UTF-16 potentially containing unpaired surrogates
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493. # [12:36] <hsivonen> izhak: the whatwg doesn't suggest an internal encoding
494. # [12:37] <hsivonen> izhak: there's some confusing language in the whatwg HTML spec that tries to abstract over the reality of the DOM being UTF-16 potentially containing unpaired surrogates
495. # [12:37] <izhak> And I started to thought that I misunderstood that wchar_t typedef...
496. # [12:38] <izhak> *to think
497. # [12:38] <hsivonen> wchar_t is full of FAIL
498. # [12:38] <izhak> yeah
499. # [12:38] <hsivonen> PRUnichar is wchar_t on Windows where wchar_t is 16 bits
500. # [12:38] <hsivonen> PRUnichar is not wchar_t on Linux/GCC
501. # [12:38] <izhak> I would be just happy to see utf-8 in there
502. # [12:38] <hsivonen> PRUnichar is always 16 bits
503. # [12:39] <hsivonen> wchar_t is whatever (16 bits on Windows, 32 in glibc)
504. # [12:39] <izhak> I wouldn't say that PRUnichar does better than wchar_t :) in general
505. # [12:39] <hsivonen> well, at least PRUnichar has a stable meaning in terms of number of bits
506. # [12:40] <hsivonen> makes it superior to wchar_t in my book
507. # [12:41] <izhak> But why utf-16, only to make character wise traversal more efficient and convinient?
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509. # [12:41] <annevk> zcorpan: using some kind of repo would be nice at least for history
510. # [12:41] <annevk> zcorpan: and backups
511. # [12:41] <hsivonen> izhak: because in the late nineties, people weren't enlightened about the virtues of UTF-8
512. # [12:41] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
513. # [12:42] <annevk> man
514. # [12:42] <annevk> I just realized last night that if UTF-16 was not there, surrogates would not have been there either
515. # [12:42] <annevk> it was a nice dream
516. # [12:43] <zcorpan> annevk: btw html-diffs needs updating again
517. # [12:44] <izhak> hsivonen: clear, thanks.
518. # [12:44] <annevk> zcorpan: isn't that your job now?
519. # [12:44] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah, though i don't have anolis set up yet
520. # [12:45] <annevk> if you update the source I can generate
521. # [12:45] <zcorpan> ok, cool
522. # [12:49] <annevk> agreed :)
523. # [12:49] <asmodai> Anyone know which BNF form the w3.org typically uses (like in the XML spec)?
524. # [12:49] <annevk> avoid-BNF
525. # [12:49] <hsivonen> IIRC, XML has its own flavor
526. # [12:49] <zcorpan> i can use xspec xref now, right?
527. # [12:49] <annevk> yes
528. # [12:49] * hsivonen wants rectangular selections in Eclipse
529. # [12:49] <zcorpan> k
530. # [12:50] <annevk> XML has its own BNF, lots of specs avoid BNF, if you really want to use BNF, you should use ABNF I think as standardized in some RFC
531. # [12:50] <hsivonen> ooh. alt+shift+a
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533. # [12:58] <asmodai> annevk / hsivonen: Thanks. Was just seeing if this was a defined BNF or not.
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537. # [13:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what's alt+shift+a?
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539. # [13:14] <zcorpan> oh, eclipse
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555. # [13:52] <hsivonen> unfortunately, http://dbaron.org/log/2006-08#e20060818a is still relevant today
556. # [13:54] <hsivonen> it's still sad that companies whose devices "don't try to support browsing the web at large" get to buy attention of the W3C
557. # [14:01] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.168.203.113)
558. # [14:01] <jgraham> Well has the W3C process changed substantially in the past 5.5 years?
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560. # [14:18] <annevk> Community Groups were added to work around it
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592. # [15:24] <bga> strict typed js and s-expr instead html is pretty popular idea
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594. # [15:25] <jgraham> By "pretty popular" you mean "lots of people talk about it, no one does it"?
595. # [15:25] <jgraham> (for small values of "lots")
596. # [15:25] <bga> lots of ppl
597. # [15:26] <bga> s-expr has native macroses
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599. # [15:26] <bga> good for temlpating
600. # [15:26] <bga> *templating
601. # [15:26] <jgraham> Well some people write templating languages in lisp, yes
602. # [15:27] <jgraham> I'm not sure that's the same thing
603. # [15:27] <bga> sorry. away
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623. # [16:03] <zcorpan> annevk: how do i fix https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14319 ?
624. # [16:04] <annevk> wontfix?
625. # [16:04] <annevk> doesn't seem overly important
626. # [16:05] <annevk> or maybe change HTML5 to HTML in the abstract
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628. # [16:05] <annevk> that's prolly best
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630. # [16:06] <annevk> I guess everyone is just ignoring Charles Pritchard now otherwise the notion that WebKit can be bought would have generated some traffic I suppose
631. # [16:07] <annevk> cf http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0494.html
632. # [16:08] <nisci> what does the 'wg' in whatwg stand for?
633. # [16:08] <annevk> Working Group
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635. # [16:10] <zcorpan> i thought this document was about describing the w3c html5 spec, so the references should maybe go there
636. # [16:10] <annevk> it's mostly about giving a rough overview over how HTML changed since HTML4
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638. # [16:11] <annevk> I'm sure someone will change the reference before publishing though
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640. # [16:11] <annevk> plh is good at that
641. # [16:12] <zcorpan> if we want the spec to describe the whatwg spec, there are several things that should be changed, i think
642. # [16:12] <annevk> do we have to be so granular?
643. # [16:13] <zcorpan> well currently it aims to accurately describe the w3c spec, but the references go to whatwg, which is a bit weird
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645. # [16:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: see /topic :p
646. # [16:14] <annevk> changing the references is a bit of a hassle
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648. # [16:14] <annevk> I think Ms2ger is planning on something to change that, but it might take a while
649. # [16:15] <annevk> I wouldn't worry too much about it
650. # [16:15] <zcorpan> maybe i should just cover both specs in cases where they disagree
651. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> You could always add a [HTML5] to spec-data
652. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> It might even exist already
653. # [16:18] <zcorpan> where is spec-data?
654. # [16:18] <Ms2ger> Bitbucket
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657. # [16:19] <zcorpan> seems it doesn't exist
658. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/specification-data/
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662. # [16:21] <annevk> see also http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Anolis
663. # [16:23] * zcorpan meant that [HTML5] doesn't exist
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668. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> Yeah
669. # [16:39] <jgraham> HTML5 doesn't exist? Better keep that one a secret
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674. # [17:07] <annevk> can someone check the WHATWG blog for that comment?
675. # [17:07] <annevk> nobody has done it yet...
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681. # [17:17] <nisci> wow, this is really great -- thanks for the suggestion!
682. # [17:17] <nisci> oops, wrong chanel
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696. # [17:55] <annevk> hmm
697. # [17:56] <annevk> so MutationObserver objects are scoped by browsing contexts that can reach each other
698. # [17:56] <annevk> this dependency game is annoying
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703. # [18:02] <annevk> man
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705. # [18:09] <annevk> so you have a list
706. # [18:09] <annevk> at some point the mutation observer thing happens
707. # [18:09] <annevk> you go through the list
708. # [18:09] <annevk> and for each item where the record queue is non-empty, you invoke the callback
709. # [18:09] <jgraham> ["eggs", "yoghurt", "milk"]
710. # [18:10] <annevk> the problem is the scope of the list
711. # [18:10] <annevk> the DOM has no notion of scripts or browsing contexts
712. # [18:11] <jgraham> Wrong kind of list it seems :(
713. # [18:11] <annevk> Each scripting-environment has an associated list of MutationObserver objects maybe?
714. # [18:11] <annevk> and then a note that says the scripting-environment needs to carefully define the context and when to invoke "notify" or whatever we call it
715. # [18:12] <annevk> I guess that can work
716. # [18:14] <annevk> jgraham: I like your list better :)
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719. # [18:26] <annevk> hmm
720. # [18:26] <annevk> still not dealing with transient observers
721. # [18:26] <annevk> and aklein is away
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724. # [18:32] <kennyluck> "Thou shalt not refer to the WHATWG version of HTML."
725. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> s/HATWG/3C/
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727. # [18:32] <annevk> I guess another problem might be garbage collection
728. # [18:33] <annevk> I loathe garbage collection
729. # [18:33] <annevk> also the non-virtual kind
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731. # [18:45] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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734. # [18:51] <ksweeney> good morning!
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752. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> "Should "just work" assuming the methods on EventTarget.prototype are generic and flexible enough to work on any object."
753. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> That sounds awful
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756. # [19:42] <annevk> aklein: so steps 1-4 could be substeps of step 1 of the new invoke algorithm, and step 2 would be to invoke them again if any of the mutationobserver objects has a non-empty record queue
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758. # [19:42] <annevk> aklein: that would address that problem, right?
759. # [19:44] <annevk> aklein: still need to know what to do with transient observers
760. # [19:44] <aklein> annevk: that sounds right (and also handles the case of new observers being added during invokation)
761. # [19:44] <aklein> annevk: let me look at the code real quick...
762. # [19:46] <aklein> annevk: as for transient:
763. # [19:46] <Velmont> Mozilla announces HTML5-based phone - http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/484288/989987e3efcc1fc7/ - The article will open up in 7 days, but thought it'd be interesting for you to read it now :]
764. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> Oh, did we?
765. # [19:47] <aklein> annevk: between steps 3 & 4, remove all transient registrations
766. # [19:47] <aklein> annevk: for the observer you're about to call, that is
767. # [19:48] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Only copied the title
768. # [19:48] <annevk> aklein: that sounds surprisingly easy
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770. # [19:48] <annevk> ok I'll write up some next text as it seems this Junta game will delay our dinner plans a little longer :)
771. # [19:48] <annevk> new text* doh
772. # [19:48] <Velmont> lol
773. # [19:49] <aklein> annevk: yeah, it's actually pretty simple. the idea is that since the observer is about to get a chance to run, it no longer needs those transient observers (it can go add new observations wherever it cares to)
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776. # [19:57] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/c6ad9b7a9dff
777. # [19:59] <annevk> Ms2ger: "just work" lalala
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779. # [20:00] <annevk> just add some electricity to the water and it'll just work
780. # [20:00] <annevk> or something
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784. # [20:06] <annevk> aklein: fyi http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-mo-invoke
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786. # [20:07] <aklein> annevk: looks good!
787. # [20:08] <annevk> good good
788. # [20:08] <annevk> now Hixie needs to make a change and then we should figure out setting innerHTML / textContent
789. # [20:08] <aklein> the discussion of simplifying that stuff sort of died out
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791. # [20:09] <annevk> I can see how treating "remove all" and "insert DF" completely separate is somewhat easier, but combining them does not seem that much harder
792. # [20:10] <annevk> especially as this will only be invoked when the DocumentFragment can be inserted without issue (so you don't need to run the complex insertion steps)
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794. # [20:12] * Philip` wonders if there's a good explanation somewhere of why B2G is better than Android plus a web browser
795. # [20:12] <aklein> the trouble is that "remove all" can trigger synchronous events, so more DOM mutation code can run before we get around to the "insert DF" part
796. # [20:13] <annevk> well ideally we get rid of mutation events
797. # [20:13] <aklein> even leaving aside mutation events, there's blur
798. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> Wasn't the idea to batch such changes up into one listener?
799. # [20:13] <annevk> oh blur, didn't we have something for that?
800. # [20:14] <annevk> "The methods are not generic, as WebIDL clearly says." thank god
801. # [20:14] <aklein> I guess that technically happens _before_ the removal
802. # [20:14] <aklein> so maybe I shouldn't have to worry about blur...
803. # [20:15] <annevk> i hope not
804. # [20:16] <annevk> I think ryosuke had something else, but I forgot
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806. # [20:16] <annevk> <iframe> unload maybe?
807. # [20:16] <annevk> hmm
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817. # [20:27] <Hixie> annevk, aklein: so calling a callback is itself a microtask...
818. # [20:28] <Hixie> annevk, aklein: i suppose i don't fire any observers if i'm already busy firing the observers?
819. # [20:29] <aklein> Hixie: exactly
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821. # [20:30] <Hixie> k
822. # [20:31] <Hixie> so i invoke the observers after a script runs, unless it's an observer. Then after doing that, I do it again if there's new observers?
823. # [20:31] <Hixie> or what?
824. # [20:32] <aklein> Hixie: annevk changed that algorithm to re-invoke itself, so you should only have to call that algorithm once
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854. # [21:32] * jwalden belatedly high-fives rniwa as another Fedora user
855. # [21:32] <rniwa> jwalden: hehe, hi
856. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> Ubuntu, anybody? :)
857. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Right here!
858. # [21:32] * jwalden is still on 14, keeps not finding the time to back up fully before updating to 15
859. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> (Well, Gubuntu, but still.)
860. # [21:33] <jwalden> at the rate I'm going I might just wait to 16, but I really probably shouldn't do that :-)
861. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> (Or Goobuntu, I think.)
862. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> I read that as "* jwalden is still 14"
863. # [21:33] * Ms2ger high-... fours TabAtkins
864. # [21:33] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
865. # [21:33] <jwalden> "I know you are but what am I"
866. # [21:33] <jwalden> and I could even be right! :-P
867. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> "I'm filing the bug as I type against W3C's HTML5, so we can get the opinion of the DOM people as well."
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871. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> Heh.
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880. # [22:07] <Hixie> aklein: k
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882. # [22:15] <kennyluck> Heh. I wanted to quote that line too.
883. # [22:16] * TabAtkins wonders why random lines from my emails are quotable.
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886. # [22:21] <Hixie> annevk5: yt?
887. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, because the DOM people are in WebApps :)
888. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> True, but the relevant ones follow the list sufficiently well.
889. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> I'M TRYING TO BE CROSS-DISCIPLINARY.
890. # [22:23] <Hixie> the relevant ones probably have public-html filtered to /dev/null...
891. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> But then I talk about it in here, so it's all good again.
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899. # [22:48] <annevk> Hixie: am now
900. # [22:48] <annevk> Hixie: we went to get some food finally
901. # [22:48] <annevk> but back now
902. # [22:49] <jgraham> Philip`: I assume that the value proposition of all-apps-as-webapps over a simple webbrowser is that instead of having to remember the url for every app you want to run you can visit a single page that will conveniently let you search for apps and, if you find one you like, store a link to it locally so it is convenient to find in the future
903. # [22:50] <Velmont> I still haven't bothered to do the rain dance required to follow public-html.
904. # [22:50] <annevk> you can email chaals, but the question is whether you really want to read the email
905. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> You think you'll get away with a rain dance?
906. # [22:51] <Velmont> annevk: Yes, I keep getting told I really don't want to subscribe anyway. So I'm stuck in the limbo.
907. # [22:51] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.60.137) (Quit: nn)
908. # [22:51] <Velmont> Lots of dance methaphors here.
909. # [22:52] <annevk> Dance Dance Dance is an okay read
910. # [22:54] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
911. # [22:54] <jgraham> Pretty good, but not his best work
912. # [22:54] <jgraham> One of the early ones to be translated iirc?
913. # [22:55] <jgraham> Velmont: You could read my public-html mail if you like
914. # [22:55] <annevk> "I’d loved and been loved, but I had nothing to show. It was a singularly plain, featureless landscape. I felt like I was in a video game. A surrogate Pacman, crunching blindly through a labyrinth of dotted lines. The only certainty was my death."
915. # [22:55] <Velmont> Don't say too much stuff that require googling, the internet here is pretty darn slow, and I'm sharing it with annevk.
916. # [22:55] <annevk> jgraham: not sure, I reckon that would have been Norwegian Wood, but I'm not sure
917. # [22:56] <jgraham> annevk is a walking mine of Murakami facts
918. # [22:57] <bga> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://johnbender.us/2012/02/29/faster-javascript-through-category-theory/
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920. # [22:58] <jgraham> Wikipedia says that "Pinball, 1973" and "Hear the Wind Sing" were first to be translated, but I have never read them
921. # [22:58] <annevk> those are his first two books
922. # [22:58] <jgraham> Then "A Wild Sheep Chase" and "Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World"
923. # [22:58] <annevk> if I remember I'll bring them next time I go to Sweden, whenever that is
924. # [22:59] <jgraham> Then "Dance Dance Dance"
925. # [22:59] <jgraham> Norwegian Wood was written earlier but translated later
926. # [22:59] <jgraham> annevk: That would be totally excellent
927. # [22:59] <annevk> yeah I was about to say, interesting
928. # [23:00] <Velmont> I should read one of his books.
929. # [23:00] <jgraham> s/one/all/
930. # [23:00] <Velmont> jgraham: Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
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932. # [23:01] <annevk> Hixie: in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16142 your comment regarding GC got trimmed
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937. # [23:01] <jgraham> Velmont: Well I probably wouldn't start with Dance Dance Dance.
938. # [23:02] <Velmont> jgraham: Nope. Maybe Norwegian Wood, since that is so well known? Or is there a better one to start at?
939. # [23:02] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYYYMKDCCLXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
940. # [23:03] <jgraham> Norwegian Wood is a fine choice. I think I read The Wind Up Bird Chronicle first. Or perhaps Kafka on the Shore
941. # [23:04] <annevk> I want to read Kafka on the Shore again, read it in Dutch initially
942. # [23:06] <jgraham> Well if you ever make it to Lkpg you are welcome to borrow my copy
943. # [23:07] <Velmont> I want to go to Lkpg too.
944. # [23:08] <Velmont> Never been much in Sweden.
945. # [23:08] <Hixie> annevk: actually it didn't, i never wrote anything and apparently forgot to delete it :-)
946. # [23:08] <Hixie> annevk: never wrote anything after what you see, i mean
947. # [23:09] <jgraham> Velmont: Well I'm sure you would be quite welcome if you could find a half decent excuse :)
948. # [23:09] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-150-157-88.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120216081259])
949. # [23:10] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
950. # [23:10] <annevk> heh
951. # [23:12] <Velmont> jgraham: annevk suggested working on the XHR testsuite. :] No real reason to do it there, but could classify as half-decent.
952. # [23:13] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
953. # [23:14] <annevk> reason might be waste: http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/12/waste
954. # [23:14] <annevk> cf Dance Dance Dance
955. # [23:15] <jgraham> Velmont: Or come over and give an opera:talk on something
956. # [23:17] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
957. # [23:19] <Hixie> css people might want to review my naive TextMetrics proposal at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas#TextMetrics
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960. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ping www-style?
961. # [23:20] <Hixie> i never get any useful feedback when i do that
962. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Well, I can't give very useful feedback - text isn't my thing.
963. # [23:21] <Hixie> (and if i get any feedback at all, it's usually along the lines of "oh, we should provide that, let us write a spec and reference that" and then i never heard back)
964. # [23:21] <Hixie> s/heard/hear/
965. # [23:22] <gsnedders> Velmont: I started with Kafka on the Shore (jgraham's copy thereof!), which I loved.
966. # [23:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm not a text expert, but you seem to have a copy-paste error on "// distance from textBaseline to hanging baseline"
967. # [23:23] <othermaciej> seems copied a few times where it does not apply
968. # [23:23] <Hixie> oops
969. # [23:23] <Hixie> fixed, thanks
970. # [23:24] <othermaciej> also you define many things as distances relative to textBaseline but the textBaseline property itself is not there
971. # [23:25] <othermaciej> (maybe it's 0 by definition in your model?)
972. # [23:25] <Hixie> textBaseline is a property on the context
973. # [23:25] <othermaciej> our text expert says "the definitions of the metrics look sane to me, i’m assuming “the text” and a CSS font are in the context somehow"
974. # [23:25] <Hixie> (that already exists)
975. # [23:25] <othermaciej> the property on the context is a string though
976. # [23:25] <Hixie> yeah
977. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Any clue who I would talk to about killing the restriction on webkit bugzilla that your passwords must be <= 16 character?
978. # [23:28] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: my guess is that this restriction exists only because we are using an old version of bugzilla, assuming it is fixed in newer bugzilla instances
979. # [23:28] <Hixie> why does canvas only do affine transforms?
980. # [23:28] <othermaciej> if so, the person to talk to is Lucas Forschler, but I am not sure how soon he'll be able to update us to a newer version
981. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Becaue that's what CSS transforms are?
982. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> And SVG?
983. # [23:28] <Hixie> but why?
984. # [23:28] <othermaciej> most 2D graphics systems only have affine transforms built in
985. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Shrug. They're simple.
986. # [23:28] <othermaciej> which non-affine transforms do you think it should do?
987. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> You can efficiently transform most curves if you stick to affine.
988. # [23:29] <Hixie> i dunno, there's a bug here saying we should allow non-affine transforms, and i was just wondering if it was just a matter of allowing it, or if there was some reason we were avoding it
989. # [23:29] <Hixie> avoiding
990. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> And can always represent the current transform with a 4x4 matrix.
991. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> Bezier curves can only be efficiently transformed if you restrict yourself to a limited set of transforms.
992. # [23:30] <othermaciej> affine transforms in 2D space can be represented with a 3x3 matrix
993. # [23:30] <othermaciej> (or 3x2 if you want to make it more compact)
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995. # [23:30] <othermaciej> does the bug say what other kinds of transforms should be supported?
996. # [23:31] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9235 is the bug
997. # [23:31] <othermaciej> "non-affine transform" doesn't define a specific thing
998. # [23:31] <Hixie> "perspective" is the term the guy uses
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1000. # [23:31] <othermaciej> ah
1001. # [23:31] <othermaciej> I don't think perspective projections make sense in an otherwise 2D API
1002. # [23:31] <othermaciej> you want 3D, use WebGL
1003. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> I don't really agree with that. But lemme see...
1004. # [23:32] <Hixie> i commented on the bug that if they wanted it they should get a us to implement it first
1005. # [23:32] <othermaciej> 3D perspective projections require more space to store, are slower to apply, and often aren't supported natively by the relevant 2D graphics APIs
1006. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> I think you need to convert your curves up into NURBS to get efficient perspective transforms.
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1008. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> But yeah, getting a UA to implement them first seems like a good thing to require.
1009. # [23:36] * gsnedders waits for nobody to implement it because it's non-standard
1010. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Just pay someone to put it in webkit.
1011. # [23:36] <othermaciej> I don't really see the point of adding them to the 2D API
1012. # [23:36] <annevk> oh, list of new canvas features keeps growing
1013. # [23:36] <othermaciej> you don't really want to be doing perspective transforms in software
1014. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Some types of 3d transforms are useful even within the limited canvas2d api. It's kinda sucky to require someone to go learn webgl for simple effects like that when they're not actually needing the power of it.
1015. # [23:37] <othermaciej> even for "2.5D" type effects you need more than just 3d transforms as such
1016. # [23:38] <othermaciej> they make sense in CSS transforms because the UA can compute intersections and occlusions and such
1017. # [23:38] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: 20k USD? :P
1018. # [23:38] <othermaciej> (and can also hardware accelerate everything)
1019. # [23:39] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
1020. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Wired straight to my bank account, yes.
1021. # [23:39] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@ip-91-9-179-93.dialup.ice.net) (Quit: annevk)
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1025. # [23:50] <jamesr__> gsnedders, TabAtkins: don't forget you need to bribe a webkit reviewer too
1026. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> jamesr__: Shhh!
1027. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> You'll cost me 20k!
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1030. # Session Close: Thu Mar 01 00:00:00 2012

The end :)