/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 03 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <Hixie> how do you even refernece this httpbis beast
  4. # [00:02] <TabAtkins_> in verse
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  11. # [00:18] <jamesr__> TabAtkins_, how do i make a new CSSRule to stick in this list?
  12. # [00:19] <TabAtkins_> That's an excellent question.
  13. # [00:19] <jamesr__> lawl "To parse a CSS rule ..."
  14. # [00:19] <jamesr__> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/cssom/raw-file/tip/Overview.html/#parse-a-css-rule
  15. # [00:20] <jamesr__> ok i'm pretty sure i inserted a rule but nothing happened
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  17. # [00:21] <TabAtkins_> Just insert a <style> and set its textContent.
  18. # [00:21] <TabAtkins_> Fuck all the rest.
  19. # [00:22] <TabAtkins_> Every part of the CSSOM is horrible.
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  23. # [00:36] <Hixie> zewt: why https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16157 ?
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  26. # [00:42] <Hixie> "I'm not talking about any kind of lock-in" coming from someone pushing a DRM scheme is rather hard to swallow
  27. # [00:47] <zewt> Hixie: because the failure cases is too exceptional, and will lead to too much buggy code
  28. # [00:47] <zewt> also, are
  29. # [00:48] <zewt> also, most of the time there's nothing sane you can do in response to that exception anyway, except to manually remove the unpaired surrogates and try again
  30. # [00:50] <Hixie> you should never hit that exception unless you have a pretty fundamental design bug
  31. # [00:50] <Hixie> in the latter case you'll hit it relatively early in the design
  32. # [00:50] <Hixie> (if you're not unlucky)
  33. # [00:50] <zewt> it'll happen if the user pastes in an unpaired surrogate, or if you try to chop off the first 100 letters of user-entered text naively, etc
  34. # [00:50] <Hixie> the user can't paste in unpaired surrogates
  35. # [00:51] <Hixie> your latter point is an interesting one though
  36. # [00:51] <zewt> sure he can, at least in firefox last i tried it (maybe around 6 or 7)
  37. # [00:51] <Hixie> file a bug on firefox, that's a bug
  38. # [00:51] <zewt> but granted that's a rare case
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  42. # [00:57] <Hixie> hmmm
  43. # [00:57] <Hixie> Path and 2DRContext
  44. # [00:58] <Hixie> i don't want to duplicate all this material in both interface blocks
  45. # [00:58] <Hixie> [NoInterfaceObject] and foo implements bar; results in the same as just copying the idl in both places right?
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  47. # [00:59] <Hixie> i wonder if i should do an idl block for each related block of content, or if i should just have one big one imported twice
  48. # [00:59] <Hixie> i'm gonna reuse the transformation stuff for patterns, so probably at least some smaller-sized blocks would make sense...
  49. # [01:00] <Hixie> this is gonna be a pain to spec
  50. # [01:24] <Hixie> ok i failed to do canvas today. will try again monday. :-)
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  57. # [01:46] <Yuhong> annevk: When Opera has to reparse XML as text/html, I suggest the reparse be done with *scripting disabled*.
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  63. # [02:00] <Velmont> Yuhong: Why?
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  69. # [02:34] <Yuhong> XSS attacks.
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  75. # [02:41] <danielfilho> I can only receive the emails from whatwg mail list if I work for a w3c member organization? :(
  76. # [02:41] <danielfilho> oh, sorry. just found the other way :D
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  133. # [07:23] <[tm]> jgraham: will get it set up but please remind me later if I forget
  134. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I think I can probably set up a commit hook that will cause a push to github too every time somebody pushes to dvcs.w3.org
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  161. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> zewt: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html redirects to http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-video-element.html now
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  163. # [09:11] <GPHemsley> What's the story with WebVTT? Is it being actively maintained?
  164. # [09:12] <GPHemsley> And how is the language content tagged? I don't seen any @lang equivalents.
  165. # [09:15] <GPHemsley> For example, I wonder how the video in this post might be subtitled/tagged: http://hacks.mozilla.org/2012/02/mozillas-boot-to-gecko-the-web-is-the-platform/
  166. # [09:16] <GPHemsley> (The first video. It has interviews with many people in many different languages, and it is not graphically subtitled or translated.)
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  198. # [12:15] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#utf-8-decoder
  199. # [12:15] <annevk> as a replacement for
  200. # [12:15] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#utf-8
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  208. # [13:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: Still, specifying something like http+aes is probably done better somewhere where server people are as well as (a small number of) client people are.
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  217. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/ "this specification will not exit CR before 14 November 2010."
  218. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> That seems to have turned out to be correct
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  222. # [14:39] <annevk> haha
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  225. # [14:41] <annevk> "I want to do the simplest thing possible" "How about adding this other redundant thing too?" "..."
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  229. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> Is const in any ES spec already?
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  236. # [15:28] <Ms2ger> "This test ensures WebGL implementations correctly implement compressedTexImage2D and compressedTexSubImage2D."
  237. # [15:28] <Ms2ger> That's the only mention of "compressedTexSubImage2D" in the file
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  243. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> jgraham: as far as getting automatic mirroring set up, hg-git is giving me nothing but grief right now
  244. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> so I'm giving up for now and will try again later
  245. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> # hg push git+ssh://git@github.com:w3c/html-testsuite.git
  246. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> pushing to git+ssh://git@github.com:w3c/html-testsuite.git
  247. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> importing Hg objects into Git
  248. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> creating and sending data
  249. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> error: index-pack died of signal 11
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  251. # [15:55] <annevk> I wish browsers would implement :any-link or some such already
  252. # [15:55] <annevk> typing :link:hover, :visited:hover is anoying
  253. # [15:55] <zewt> annevk: the :before for "note" is really annoying in Firefox, since you can't select the entire note, btw
  254. # [15:56] <zewt> (in encoding, at least)
  255. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> Well, you can't select the generated content
  256. # [15:56] <zewt> right; firefox bug but annoying to be triggering it
  257. # [15:57] <annevk> .note is a pretty universal thing though
  258. # [15:57] <annevk> so if you want that changed we'd have to change it across all specs
  259. # [15:57] <zewt> annevk: "Pre-processing is required ..." might be nice to mention webidl's domstring->unicode conversion there as an example (since it'll probably be the most common preprocessor)
  260. # [15:57] <annevk> the most common is form submission I think
  261. # [15:57] <zewt> havn't noticed it before; maybe I really havn't tried to copy a note before
  262. # [15:58] <annevk> wherey ou use entities
  263. # [15:58] <zewt> annevk: i mean the most common case where other specs need to do that
  264. # [15:58] <annevk> ah mkay
  265. # [15:58] <zewt> (not the most commonly-triggered by users)
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  267. # [15:58] <annevk> hacking on an IRC logging service now
  268. # [15:58] <annevk> maybe email or file a bug?
  269. # [15:58] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  270. # [15:58] <zewt> hack a one-click bug filing thing into the IRC log :P
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  272. # [16:01] <zewt> heh what's this weird muddy blob on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/
  273. # [16:01] <zewt> it literally made me change tabs because my eyes went "there's something smeared on the monitor"
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  276. # [16:10] <annevk> zewt: we have a plan to allow people to plug web services into the bot
  277. # [16:10] <annevk> or to expose some kind of API for it you can talk to over HTTP
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  291. # [16:55] <annevk> zewt: actually, where pre-processing is mentioned it's something that most specs won't use
  292. # [16:56] <annevk> well I guess it doesn't really matter, but the intent was mostly about encodings that cannot represent the code points
  293. # [16:56] <zewt> don't follow
  294. # [16:57] <zewt> if you have a DOMString and you want to convert to UTF-8, WebIDL defines how to get Unicode out of it (including dealing with unpaired surrogates), and I assume the output of that is the input to the UTF-8 encoder
  295. # [16:57] <annevk> e.g. form submission to iso-8859-1 would require escaping characters not in the windows-1252 range
  296. # [16:58] <zewt> (plus recombining valid surrogates, of course, which people will want to do anyway)
  297. # [16:58] <annevk> yeah, that's noteworthy too, just something distinct from what I initially meant
  298. # [17:00] <zewt> that aside, it might be good to have a definition like "convert a DOMString to UTF-8" that just combines the two
  299. # [17:01] <zewt> (assuming that's the behavior that APIs standardize on; not sure if hixie's made a decision there yet)
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  301. # [17:03] <annevk> ah yeah
  302. # [17:03] <annevk> Web IDL has to do that then
  303. # [17:03] <annevk> not gonna make Encoding depend on much
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  305. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> "convert a DOMString to a sequence of Unicode characters" is just a forgiving utf-16 decoder, no?
  306. # [17:06] <zewt> yep
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  308. # [17:12] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I ignored all the hg push git+ssh stuff
  309. # [17:12] <jgraham> And just used hg gexport
  310. # [17:12] <jgraham> and git push
  311. # [17:13] <jgraham> hg bookmark -fr default master
  312. # [17:13] <jgraham> hg gexport
  313. # [17:13] <jgraham> git push [repo name]
  314. # [17:13] <[tm]> jgraham: I know nothing about that but will try out later
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  316. # [17:14] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Did you just typo the word "typo" in a bug about a typo?
  317. # [17:14] <[tm]> hg-git is a fail man
  318. # [17:14] <jgraham> [tm]: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2011/02/10/git-conversion-of-mozilla-central.html is what I followed
  319. # [17:15] <jgraham> More or less
  320. # [17:15] <[tm]> jgraham: thanks
  321. # [17:16] <[tm]> and thanks doublec i assume
  322. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> jgraham, obviously intentionnaly
  323. # [17:16] <jgraham> (see also the followup post on the workflow to commit patches; I guess this makes using pull requests a bit difficult
  324. # [17:16] <jgraham> )
  325. # [17:17] * Ms2ger grumbles about WebGL
  326. # [17:18] <jgraham> http://blog.mozilla.com/halfire/2012/03/02/dvcs-survey-summary/ is also mildly interesting in that it suggests that the Mozilla folks might have to work on a solution for this
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  331. # [17:56] <[tm]> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/011210/record-wishes.gif
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  352. # [18:47] <Hixie> "Our business wouldn't be viable at all without regional restrictions" o_O
  353. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> That sounds like DRM
  354. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> (Yet another reason to send public-html straight to /dev/null)
  355. # [18:52] <wilhelm> I've done some work recently for a Scandiavian music streaming company. They have separate deals with the record companies for each country they have customers in. And they launch to one country at the time.
  356. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> Are you even allowed to tell us that? ;)
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  358. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> Hi sicking
  359. # [18:54] <wilhelm> Most of the above should be public knowledge. (c:
  360. # [18:54] <wilhelm> It's puzzling to see how the entire entertainment industry seems to work like that.
  361. # [18:56] <Hixie> from talking with Mark about this it sounds to me like NetFlix actually _wants_ the movie/tv industry to do licenses like this
  362. # [18:56] <jgraham> Well presumably it is mostly, but not entirely, a historical artifact
  363. # [18:57] <jgraham> But it might be a good thing for the industry because it means that you can vary the prices somewhat
  364. # [18:57] <jgraham> rather than having to have a uniform global price
  365. # [18:58] <wilhelm> There seems to be a ~20% difference between Swedish and Norwegian subscription fees in this particular case.
  366. # [19:02] <zewt> well, because markets will bear higher prices in different regions, so they want tech to help them do that
  367. # [19:03] <zewt> (i've been there, and while I "get" it, I sure as hell don't expect the open Web to assist it)
  368. # [19:04] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.13.244.getinternet.no)
  369. # [19:04] <zewt> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005HWAOOI http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00329NVYS US: $51 JP: $545 o_O
  370. # [19:05] <zewt> (to take the most extreme example I'm aware of)
  371. # [19:05] <wilhelm> Indeed.
  372. # [19:06] <jgraham> wilhelm: Well there also ahppens to be a ~20% difference between 1NOK and 1SEK, so that example isn't entirely helpful
  373. # [19:07] <zewt> (note--the extreme example is that entire genre; that particular example is not even slightly an isolated case)
  374. # [19:08] <wilhelm> jgraham: The Danish price is 50% lower, for some reason. (c:
  375. # [19:08] <zewt> it's sort of funny how Canadian prices still tend to be higher than USD prices, even though the CAD is above the USD now
  376. # [19:09] <wilhelm> I fully agree with Hixie's response to the proposal. But I am worried what those companies will do if the proposal is shot down.
  377. # [19:10] <jgraham> wilhelm: Well I don't know which scandinvian music service you are working for, but spotify at least seems to be 99 DNK|NOK|SEK or 9.99 GBP|USD
  378. # [19:11] <jgraham> Which is a huge variation in price (almost 100% between USD and NOK), but clearly set by marketing
  379. # [19:11] <zewt> gbp and usd aren't even close to 1:1, either
  380. # [19:12] <jgraham> Nope
  381. # [19:12] <zewt> that's enough of a difference to encourage people in britain to proxy through the US (or it would if it wasn't a fairly small amount of money to begin with)
  382. # [19:14] <jgraham> I guess that proxying isn't going to improve the quality of service, or likely work with mobile devices
  383. # [19:14] <jgraham> Although maybe the same people who will break the ToS by using a proxy have all rooted their phones
  384. # [19:14] <zewt> it encourages people to find a way
  385. # [19:15] <jgraham> Maybe
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  387. # [19:15] <zewt> just as people in japan are (much more strongly) encouraged to re-import anime from the US, since it's ridiculously cheaper
  388. # [19:15] <zewt> (which is why DVD/BD region locks exist)
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  390. # [19:16] <jgraham> I am not the best person to talk here since I don't even do the view-iPlayer-via-a-UK-proxy thing even though it is rather common (and I would happily pay the BBC substantial money every year to be allowed to do so, but apparently they only want my money if I also bought an iPad)
  391. # [19:17] <zewt> i don't think anyone in here is disagreeing about anything, anyway :)
  392. # [19:17] <jgraham> s/to do so/to watch their content/
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  394. # [19:18] <jgraham> Probably not, I just want to rant about the stupid "you can watch some iPlayer content from Sweden, but only on the iPad" policy
  395. # [19:22] <zewt> i expect every single "you can only watch this in *random weird configuration*" spawns from some publisher/distributor contract somewhere
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  421. # [20:56] <Philip`> "I am worried what those companies will do if the proposal is shot down" - clearly the best approach to achieve the desired result is to pretend to be enthusiastic about the proposal, and then sabotage it by making it as complex and unwieldy as possible and slowing down the development as much as possible
  422. # [20:56] <Philip`> The first step is to ensure progress can only be made during fortnightly telecons
  423. # [20:57] * Joins: yuhong (~chatzilla@76.178.171.153)
  424. # [20:58] <zewt> ... and really, what worse could they do than closing the web platform, which is implied by any kind of DRM, heh
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  426. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Philip`, pff, they're way better at accomplishing that than we would ever be
  427. # [21:01] <yuhong> Funny Picture: How to tell HTML(4) from HTML5:
  428. # [21:01] <yuhong> http://geekmontage.com/funny-picture-how-to-tell-html-from-html5/
  429. # [21:01] <yuhong> Now, think about how would you tell HTML6 from HTML5.
  430. # [21:03] <yuhong> Not to mention what if the client thinks a browser support "HTML5" but don't support for example <BDI> even though the browser claims to support "HTML5".
  431. # [21:05] <yuhong> Not to mention what if the client thinks a browser support "HTML5" but don't support for example <BDI> even though it is part of "HTML5'.
  432. # [21:08] <yuhong> Eventually IE8 will become obsolete and all browsers will support "HTML5".
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  453. # [23:01] <kennyluck> heh. When the TR/ spec is newer than the dev.w3.org one, which do you link to?
  454. # [23:01] <Ms2ger> dev
  455. # [23:01] <kennyluck> I am taking about the DeviceOrientation Event spec → http://www.w3.org/TR/orientation-event/
  456. # [23:02] <kennyluck> I don't understand how could this happen.
  457. # [23:03] <Ms2ger> You make the last edit to dev on Friday
  458. # [23:03] <Ms2ger> Publication happens next Tuesday
  459. # [23:03] <Ms2ger> TR/ has the publication data
  460. # [23:03] <Ms2ger> date, even
  461. # [23:03] <kennyluck> ah, makes sense.
  462. # [23:05] <kennyluck> (though it doesn't quite explain why the TR orientation-event is 1 December 2011 and the dev is http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html)
  463. # [23:06] <kennyluck> 12 July 2011
  464. # [23:06] <Ms2ger> Heh
  465. # [23:06] <Ms2ger> Incompetence?
  466. # [23:07] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@80.232.109.46)
  467. # [23:09] <kennyluck> I guess I can no longer trust the pub date on a TR document. Perhaps that wasn't put on by the editor...
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  469. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> s/the pub date on//
  470. # [23:10] <annevk> kennyluck: sometimes the PR team forgets
  471. # [23:10] <annevk> kennyluck: also sometimes the webmaster is delayed and they go with the original date anyway, sometime the webmaster forgets but updates the date
  472. # [23:10] <annevk> kennyluck: there's not much consistency in publishing
  473. # [23:10] <annevk> kennyluck: apart from it taking a long time
  474. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> But it not being as bad as the IETF
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  476. # [23:12] <kennyluck> annevk, I don't think the webmaster should change the the date. That seems wrong. But anyway.
  477. # [23:12] <annevk> or the Chair will do it
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  479. # [23:13] <annevk> e.g. for http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/ I think the date I put on was January 10
  480. # [23:14] <kennyluck> 7 days huh? It's 5 months different for orientation-event → http://www.w3.org/TR/orientation-event/
  481. # [23:16] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html shows that's more a problem of the editor's not doing their job
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  485. # [23:17] <Ms2ger> <a href="#ref-domevents" shape=rect>
  486. # [23:18] <fr00d> Hello
  487. # [23:19] <fr00d> I'd like to setup my own validator of validator.w3.org. I'd like to know if I really need libxml 2.7.7 like I thin it's mentioned in "check" perl script?
  488. # [23:20] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@154-93.80-90.static-ip.oleane.fr)
  489. # [23:20] <annevk> this is the right channel for questions about http://about.validator.nu/
  490. # [23:20] <annevk> well, I guess MikeSmith might be able to help with validator.w3.org
  491. # [23:20] <sicking> Ms2ger: hey there, you pinged
  492. # [23:20] <annevk> but I think he's still asleep
  493. # [23:20] <Ms2ger> sicking, so about RangeException :)
  494. # [23:21] <sicking> Ms2ger: i already reviewed that patch
  495. # [23:21] <Ms2ger> And the new patch?
  496. # [23:21] <sicking> arg
  497. # [23:21] <Ms2ger> How dare these people, writing patches!
  498. # [23:23] <sicking> Ms2ger: well.. it's really annoying to spend time reviewing a cleanup patch and then have to redo it
  499. # [23:23] <sicking> Ms2ger: i have no idea what has changed since the last patch
  500. # [23:25] <Ms2ger> sicking, fixed tabs and split out the raises stuff, apparently
  501. # [23:26] <Ms2ger> No rereview necessary, indeed
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  507. # Session Close: Sun Mar 04 00:00:00 2012

The end :)