/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 06 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <annevk> you should use partial interface A { };
  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> i am going to have multiple interfaces implement B
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> so i can't do that
  6. # [00:02] <annevk> I think the answer is yes, but I'm also not sure :)
  7. # [00:02] <annevk> heycam: ^^
  8. # [00:02] <heycam> Hixie, annevk, yep that's equivalent
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> ok thanks
  10. # [00:05] <Hixie> heycam: can i have an 'implements' statement before the interface is declared?
  11. # [00:05] <heycam> Hixie, yes there's not really any ordering of definitions
  12. # [00:06] <Hixie> awesome
  13. # [00:10] <Hixie> ok, step one. extract the transformation methods and ensure everything still makes sense.
  14. # [00:10] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.103.235) (Quit: othermaciej)
  15. # [00:10] <Hixie> done.
  16. # [00:12] <annevk> is someone on ietf-http-wg actually proposing to replace the single request model of http-aes with two requests?
  17. # [00:12] <annevk> I should probably stop reading that thread
  18. # [00:15] <Hixie> looks like i was dropped off the cc list
  19. # [00:16] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2012JanMar/0815.html is that one
  20. # [00:17] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2012JanMar/0816.html is one that seems to forget about not complicating the APIs
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  22. # [00:19] <Hixie> oh i saw those e-mails
  23. # [00:19] <Hixie> didn't even realise they were talking about the same thing
  24. # [00:20] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  25. # [00:22] <Hixie> definitely didn't receive all the e-mails on that thread though
  26. # [00:24] <Hixie> in particular, looks like i didn't receive phk's e-mail...
  27. # [00:24] <Hixie> ah, it was marked spam
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  29. # [00:25] <Hixie> looks like he doesn't understand the situation i described though
  30. # [00:25] <Hixie> oh well
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  37. # [00:52] <Hixie> when we talk about converting text + a font specification to a specific set of drawing instructions, what's the term for that?
  38. # [00:52] <Hixie> rasterisation?
  39. # [00:53] <Hixie> i don't mean rendering, since it might not actually be shown, just turned into a path for further manipulation
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  41. # [00:54] <Philip`> Rasterization would be converting to pixels
  42. # [00:54] <gsnedders> Vectorization?
  43. # [00:55] <gsnedders> But fonts are already vectors.
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  45. # [00:55] <gsnedders> Well, except when they're bitmapped fonts.
  46. # [00:56] <Hixie> assume for the sake of this conversation that we can ignore bitmap fonts
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  50. # [01:02] <TabAtkins_> Hm, I know the word, but it's not coming to mind right now.
  51. # [01:02] <TabAtkins_> Layout?
  52. # [01:03] <heycam> outlining
  53. # [01:03] <heycam> I think that's the term used in tools like Illustrator that take a text object and converts it to paths
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  56. # [01:04] <Hixie> outlining might work, though that tends to imply "not filled in", which it could be
  57. # [01:05] <Dashiva> "Font rasterization is the process of converting text from a vector description (as found in scalable fonts such as TrueType fonts) to a raster or bitmap description."
  58. # [01:05] <TabAtkins_> Dashiva: Right, but that's not what Hixie wants.
  59. # [01:05] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-ftvafcwegmxlbcrg)
  60. # [01:06] <TabAtkins_> He means doing the shaping, spacing, etc. necessary to get the final glyph vectors for the text, so you can then manipulate the vectors.
  61. # [01:06] <Hixie> (also, any ideas what Element should be used to determine the available fonts when you do some sort of font whateverthewordis on a Path object?)
  62. # [01:06] <heycam> the process of taking an input string, font selection, and coming up with a list of glyphs and their positions is probably just "layout"
  63. # [01:06] <Hixie> (should Path objects just be created with a Canvas owner for this purpose?)
  64. # [01:06] <dbaron> you shouldn't assume that that's the path implementations go through
  65. # [01:07] <dbaron> for example, they might rasterize each glyph of the font for the correct size and then blit the rasters
  66. # [01:07] <Hixie> heycam: dbaron we're talking about Path objects, where there's no rendering
  67. # [01:07] <Hixie> er
  68. # [01:07] <Hixie> dbaron ^
  69. # [01:07] <Hixie> (my original question was "when we talk about converting text + a font specification to a specific set of drawing instructions, what's the term for that?")
  70. # [01:08] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.23.13)
  71. # [01:08] <Hixie> (in the context of drawing text to a Path object)
  72. # [01:08] <Philip`> Pathification
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  74. # [01:08] <dbaron> oops, I see I was disconnected for 7 minutes in the middle of the conversation
  75. # [01:08] <zewt> that's just pathological
  76. # [01:08] <Hixie> (or of rasterising to a canvas)
  77. # [01:08] <heycam> text-to-path might be more understandable than "outlining"
  78. # [01:08] <dbaron> stroking?
  79. # [01:08] <Hixie> right now i have "laid out (rasterized or outlined)"
  80. # [01:09] <Hixie> dbaron: sadly "stroking" in a canvas context is used for other meanings already
  81. # [01:10] <Hixie> hm, crap, i also need an Element to handle 'em' units, 'larger', 'smaller', 'ex' units, and 'rem', 'vh', and 'vw' units, and the other v unit, in the context of Paths
  82. # [01:10] <Hixie> i think i definitely have to make Path objects come from a specific canvas
  83. # [01:11] <Hixie> but that means using canvas.getContext('2d').createPath() rather than new Path(), which sucks
  84. # [01:11] <TabAtkins_> new Path({context: foo})
  85. # [01:11] <zewt> too bad rendering fonts as paths will lose grid alignment, so will look bad at font sizes used for normal text :|
  86. # [01:12] <zewt> font hinting is Really Important(tm)
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  88. # [01:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: then people will ask why they need to give one, at least the other way they just curse me but don't ask why :-)
  89. # [01:12] <TabAtkins_> If they dont' give one, measure off the root element.
  90. # [01:12] <Hixie> zewt: this will likely mostly be used for text-on-a-path, so it's not a big deal
  91. # [01:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: that would mean you don't get your @font-face fonts if you're a scoped canvas
  92. # [01:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: but maybe that's ok
  93. # [01:13] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Yeah, it's a simple answer, and as long as you provide a way to grab a Path with a <canvas> reference, it's easy to fix when it's important.
  94. # [01:14] <Hixie> yeah that might be the way to go
  95. # [01:14] <TabAtkins_> (Btw, an Element isn't necessary to handle the v* units, is it? Those are common to every element in the page.)
  96. # [01:15] <Hixie> yeah for those you need a Document, not an Element
  97. # [01:16] <Hixie> i can imply a Document more easily than an Element
  98. # [01:16] <Hixie> hm, i wonder if zewt's point above means that I should provide measureText() explicitly on paths
  99. # [01:16] <Hixie> i guess not really, since we don't give a coordinate for measureText() anyway
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  101. # [01:17] <Hixie> so it can't be taking hinting into account
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  103. # [01:18] <zewt> one other detail--if you're *animating* a text-in-a-path, you probably explicitly *don't* want hinting
  104. # [01:18] <zewt> since it'll probably make it jiggle around weirdly
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  120. # [02:34] <Hixie> man, i've been writing specs for over a decade now, i wish people would stop suggesting i don't know how to do my job :-P
  121. # [02:34] <zewt> noob
  122. # [02:34] <TabAtkins_> Maybe you should do your job better?
  123. # [02:34] <TabAtkins_> ^_^
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  125. # [02:36] <Hixie> i guess so
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  157. # [04:25] <zewt> pritchard's message sure suggests to me that the people designing "web intents" don't understand structured clone transfer at all (but I'll leave it to someone who knows and/or cares about web intents to explain that, in case there really is some weird special property of web intents that makes what he describes not completely wrong)
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  169. # [05:07] <Hixie> zewt: is he one of the ones designing it?
  170. # [05:07] <Hixie> looking at intents is next on my list after i finish all this canvas work
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  172. # [05:08] <zewt> don't think so (iirc editor list is all @google, though dvcs.w3.org is timing out for me at the moment)
  173. # [05:10] <Hixie> k
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  182. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> zewt: dvcs.w3.org still timing out for you?
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  187. # [06:11] <zewt> works now
  188. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> OK
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  246. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: https://bitbucket.org/pfalcon/validator/changeset/72665dd71762
  247. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> "Implements mock versions of servlet classes to feed data from command line to validating servlet."
  248. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> looks like that was written more than a year ago
  249. # [09:16] * MikeSmith now tries to remember who was asking for something like this a couple weeks back
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  253. # [09:21] <annevk> Hixie: tracing?
  254. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> scott_gonzalez: https://bitbucket.org/pfalcon/validator/changeset/72665dd71762
  255. # [09:22] <annevk> I think Adobe uses e.g. trace bitmap; so you could have traceFont or some such
  256. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> scott_gonzalez: related to http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120228#l-597
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  260. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> !summon zcorpan
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  302. # [11:47] <zcorpan> <input list> also has no reflecting idl attr
  303. # [11:49] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  304. # [11:49] <heycam> annevk, pong, though just about to go to bed
  305. # [11:49] <heycam> if it's just the list, I'll reply in the morning
  306. # [11:50] <annevk> yeah it was about the event handlerstuff
  307. # [11:50] <annevk> I have the feeling we're talking past each other
  308. # [11:50] <annevk> hopefully my latest list reply helps a bit
  309. # [11:50] <annevk> g'night
  310. # [11:52] <heycam> maybe, will take a fresh look in the sunlight :)
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  338. # [12:56] <zcorpan> Zarro Boogs!
  339. # [12:57] <zcorpan> annevk: please regen :-)
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  396. # [14:50] <annevk> a revert request against html5-diff?
  397. # [14:50] <annevk> you got to be fucking kidding me
  398. # [14:51] <jgraham> hahahahaha
  399. # [14:51] <zcorpan> what?
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  401. # [14:51] <jgraham> What was the objection? "Not enough DRM?"
  402. # [14:51] <jgraham> s/?"/"?/
  403. # [14:52] <jgraham> Oh no, it's our old friend longdesc
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  406. # [14:55] <zcorpan> shouldn't that be an objection on the *HTML5* spec to not say that longdesc is obsolete?
  407. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> good times
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  410. # [14:57] <zcorpan> annevk: have you got around to regen it btw?
  411. # [14:58] <zcorpan> i'm done fiddling with it now
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  413. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> zcorpan, annevk: in HTML4 the value of the dir attribute was case-insensitive, but the HTML spec currently makes it case-sensitive
  414. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> I think that was probably not intentional
  415. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> and validator.nu currently treats it case insensitively
  416. # [15:01] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#enumerated-attribute
  417. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> should I file a spec bug?
  418. # [15:01] <zcorpan> it's still case insensitive
  419. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> oh
  420. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> hah
  421. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> ok
  422. # [15:01] <annevk> zcorpan: I can do that now then; took a while to get all the terms in specification-data
  423. # [15:02] <zcorpan> annevk: k, cheers
  424. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I actually read that but when I read it, I read it as "ASCII case-sensitive" instead of "ASCII case-insensitive"
  425. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> which of course makes not sense
  426. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> I blame in on the Negra Modelo
  427. # [15:03] <zcorpan> btw, anyone know how "working group process [was] bypassed and circumvented"?
  428. # [15:08] <annevk> it seems Hixie made some kind of typo
  429. # [15:08] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-cva-checkvalidatity
  430. # [15:08] <annevk> not sure how to resolve that
  431. # [15:08] <annevk> I guess I will make the hyperlink match HTML for now
  432. # [15:08] <annevk> can you file a bug on HTML zcorpan so Hixie fixes that?
  433. # [15:09] <annevk> in particular "atity" should be replaced with "ity"
  434. # [15:09] <zcorpan> after fika
  435. # [15:09] <annevk> priorities :p
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  437. # [15:12] <annevk> beautiful: http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
  438. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> goed work brothermans
  439. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ^
  440. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> seriously
  441. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> (despite the revert request)
  442. # [15:15] * gwicke_ is now known as gwicke
  443. # [15:15] <annevk> yeah with API changes and everything
  444. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> beautiful document
  445. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> despite the "the faultfinder will find fault even in paradise" sour note mentioned earlier
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  447. # [15:21] <matjas> annevk, zcorpan: shouldn’t http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ mention `document.scripts` as well? (since `document.head` is mentioned)
  448. # [15:22] <matjas> or was that specced before?
  449. # [15:24] <matjas> also, the `input` event doesn’t seem to be mentioned
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  454. # [15:31] <annevk> matjas: file a bug :)
  455. # [15:33] <scott_gonzalez> Thanks MikeSmith, I've got someone trying it out now.
  456. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> scott_gonzalez: super
  457. # [15:34] <scott_gonzalez> His first comments were:
  458. # [15:34] <scott_gonzalez> No Maven config or anything, but it depends on some other library in the same nu.validator package, not part of the project
  459. # [15:34] <scott_gonzalez> Readme says nothing about compiling the project...
  460. # [15:34] <scott_gonzalez> Of course that's not related to your specific commit.
  461. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> that's not my commit, actually
  462. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> I just stumbled across that
  463. # [15:35] <scott_gonzalez> Oh, heh, I didn't even look at who the committer was :-)
  464. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> anyway, somebody with minimal Java chops should be able to figure out things from there
  465. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> and lack of anything related to Maven is a feature :)
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  469. # [15:44] <matjas> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16244
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  471. # [15:45] <annevk> thanks!
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  476. # [15:48] <zcorpan> matjas: scripts is documented in http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html
  477. # [15:49] <zcorpan> matjas: events aren't well covered, might need their own section. could you file a bug?
  478. # [15:49] <zcorpan> oh you did
  479. # [15:51] <zcorpan> thanks
  480. # [15:51] <matjas> thank you
  481. # [15:51] <matjas> nice work btw you guys!
  482. # [15:51] <matjas> also, should something like document.innerHTML (which got added, then moved to a separate spec, then removed from that spec) be mentioned?
  483. # [15:52] <annevk> don't think so, never got implemented
  484. # [15:52] <matjas> k
  485. # [15:52] <zcorpan> that's something for http://platform.html5.org/history/
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  488. # [15:56] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks
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  490. # [15:58] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks for the help with anolis
  491. # [15:59] <annevk> you should try it some day
  492. # [15:59] <annevk> ;)
  493. # [16:00] <zcorpan> yeah i'll try to get it running for the next publication
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  497. # [16:10] <annevk> hmm
  498. # [16:11] <annevk> WebKit is adding Number.toLocaleString() and such
  499. # [16:11] * gwicke_ is now known as gwicke_away
  500. # [16:11] <annevk> not really sure if that is great or not
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  503. # [16:24] <zcorpan> annevk: shouldn't the boilerplate be WD?
  504. # [16:25] <annevk> dunno are we done?
  505. # [16:25] <annevk> is there a pubdate?
  506. # [16:25] <annevk> s/we/you/
  507. # [16:25] <zcorpan> i'm done if i get to decide
  508. # [16:26] <zcorpan> "We are planning to prepare and publish the drafts during the week of March 5 and probably on Tue March 6."
  509. # [16:26] <zcorpan> CfC: Publish ten heartbeat drafts as WDs
  510. # [16:28] <annevk> okay
  511. # [16:28] <annevk> made ready for publishing today
  512. # [16:29] <zcorpan> thanks
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  515. # [16:31] <zcorpan> do we need to notify someone that it's ready, or something?
  516. # [16:32] <zcorpan> dang, forgot to update previous version links
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  518. # [16:34] <zcorpan> added
  519. # [16:35] <annevk> you can reply to the chairs
  520. # [16:35] <annevk> maybe that'll remind them about the publication date :p
  521. # [16:35] <zcorpan> heh, ok
  522. # [16:36] <zcorpan> can you regen again?
  523. # [16:36] <annevk> done
  524. # [16:36] <zcorpan> excellent
  525. # [16:36] <moo-_-> is there a list of all html5 attributes of all elements?
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  528. # [16:44] <zcorpan> the spec has an index
  529. # [16:44] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#attributes-1
  530. # [16:44] <zcorpan> does not include obsolete attributes
  531. # [16:45] <moo-_-> zcorpan: thx
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  549. # [17:30] <zcorpan> annevk: fyi, i won't be online for the rest of the day today (in case html5-diff needs a change or anything)
  550. # [17:30] <annevk> k
  551. # [17:30] <annevk> i might be tonight; we'll see
  552. # [17:30] <zcorpan> k, see ya
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  559. # [17:48] <annevk> gb18030 error handling
  560. # [17:48] <annevk> aaaaargh
  561. # [17:49] <[tm]> eh? sabu arrested?
  562. # [17:49] <annevk> ?
  563. # [17:52] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@125.25.58.48.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net)
  564. # [17:55] <[tm]> man
  565. # [17:55] <[tm]> this is grim
  566. # [17:56] <[tm]> news reports saying he's been collaborating with the FBI since June
  567. # [17:56] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@188.168.76.82) (Remote host closed the connection)
  568. # [17:56] <[tm]> to incriminate everybody else
  569. # [17:57] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.45)
  570. # [17:57] <[tm]> dude apparently had kids
  571. # [17:57] <[tm]> and FBI used threat of taking his kiss away
  572. # [17:58] <[tm]> I hope none of this its true
  573. # [17:58] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  574. # [18:00] <[tm]> regardless, for every one sabu there are 100 more
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  578. # [18:03] <annevk> not sure if opening the CDM floodgates so we can experiment to see if an RF implementation is possible is really the right strategy here...
  579. # [18:03] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-jdllacvqrehuxfuv)
  580. # [18:04] <[tm]> will just inspire
  581. # [18:04] <[tm]> oofs
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  583. # [18:04] <[tm]> annevk: maybe those floodgates been already opened
  584. # [18:05] <[tm]> house on its way out the barn
  585. # [18:05] <[tm]> horse
  586. # [18:06] <Philip`> [tm]: I interpreted the "?" as meaning "I haven't got a clue who 'sabu' is, what on earth are you talking about?"
  587. # [18:07] <annevk> [tm]: there's plugins I guess
  588. # [18:08] <jgraham> I still haven't entirely grasped why it is not OK if a video requires a binary component called "Flash" that implements NPAPI, but is OK if it requires a binary component that isn't called "Flash" that implements some CDM API. But I haven't followed the discussion closely so maybe I shouldn't say anything at all
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  590. # [18:09] <annevk> TabAtkins_: actually, browsers are more or less required to follow the HTML rendering section
  591. # [18:10] <annevk> TabAtkins_: not sure what it says about <table> and bordercolor though
  592. # [18:11] <annevk> jgraham: presumably plugins not being part of some platforms or disabled by default
  593. # [18:11] <annevk> jgraham: so you need plugins'
  594. # [18:11] <annevk> and plugins prime is <video> plugins I guess
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  597. # [18:12] <jgraham> annevk: I still haven't grasped why it is not OK… well I just said that. But I don't see how requiring a binary API that is implemented some places is a win over requiring a binary API that is implemented nowhere
  598. # [18:14] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@60.183.206.3)
  599. # [18:14] <Philip`> Because it means the companies involved don't have to pay licensing fees to Adobe, while also saving the engineering effort of reimplementing the entire video API themselves?
  600. # [18:15] <annevk> and they can be on platforms that don't have Flash, but do have this
  601. # [18:15] <jgraham> Philip`: So it is an attempt to move the costs from the people profiting on video distribution to browser vendors?
  602. # [18:15] <jgraham> annevk: Do any such platforms exist?
  603. # [18:16] <Philip`> jgraham: That seems a possible hypothesis
  604. # [18:16] <annevk> jgraham: well Windows 8 seems to be sort of like that
  605. # [18:16] <annevk> jgraham: with plugins disabled by default
  606. # [18:17] <annevk> jgraham: Apple seemed interested as well, so you can add iOS to that
  607. # [18:19] <Philip`> Also everyone complains about Flash being crashy, which is presumably caused largely by it being very large and requiring lots of low-level platform integration, so it'd be a more technically robust design if you put a minimal amount of code behind a minimal binary API (providing just the encryption support and nothing else)
  608. # [18:19] <[tm]> sabu is sabu
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  611. # [18:22] <Philip`> Also you might want a site that provides both DRMed and unrestricted videos (e.g. Youtube with a subset of videos having special restrictions), and not want to support two totally independent video APIs, so you'd either use <video> plus an optional DRM component (so non-DRM-supporting browsers could still play most of the videos) or you'd use a totally custom plugin-based video API (so those browsers would be locked out entirely)
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  613. # [18:27] <dglazkov> good morning, hatwg!
  614. # [18:27] <dglazkov> man, hat wg
  615. # [18:27] <dglazkov> that does sound much more fan
  616. # [18:28] <dglazkov> fan->fun
  617. # [18:28] <dglazkov> I type sad.
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  623. # [18:35] <[tm]> we're clearly months away from getting any resolution i
  624. # [18:35] <[tm]> on this
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  651. # [19:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: If the CDM wants to do its own decoding, own painting, virtualization detection, screen recorder detection, etc., it won't be less low-level than Flash or easier to intergrate than an NPAPI plug-in
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  674. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> What's the use-case for http(s)+aes?
  675. # [21:07] * AryehGregor is actually surprised by how intelligent and amicable most of this DRM thread is
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  677. # [21:08] <othermaciej> I think it only addresses the use case that people sort of claim to care about but which is not the primary motivation
  678. # [21:08] <othermaciej> yes, it seems pretty thoughtful and polite for such a controversial topic
  679. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Someone from Google said YouTube is interested in it.
  680. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Or at least in ClearKey, which is apparently more or less equivalent.
  681. # [21:09] <Yuhong> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3606623
  682. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> http(s)+aes seems like it only serves the DRM use-case if the key part of the URL isn't exposed to the user, or something like that.
  683. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> But authors can't rely on the browser to do that.
  684. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Specifically, if the restriction is implemented in open-source code, even if all browsers ship with it (unlikely), it will only be a matter of time before someone writes a patched version.
  685. # [21:11] <othermaciej> ClearKey is not sufficiently specified for me to understand exactly what it does
  686. # [21:11] <othermaciej> but if it's meant to support key rotation, then http(a)+aes is not equivalent
  687. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> If the goal is to stop the user from getting a copy of the video, the best solution that's implementable in open-source seems like site-specific obfuscation of the underlying HTML and transport, like using transparent divs to block "Save As" and using one-time URLs so that grabbing the URL from the source won't help.
  688. # [21:11] <othermaciej> likewise if it's required for encryption to be inside the container instead of outside
  689. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> YouTube already does this, I think.
  690. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> Anything further seems unlikely to be implementable in open-source software. On the other hand, if you make it moderately inconvenient to extract the video from the site, it should be no problem, as long as a) it's at least as inconvenient as using BitTorrent, and b) the content is already available on BitTorrent.
  691. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Then again, that's being rational, and the content owners are not necessarily being rational here.
  692. # [21:17] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
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  700. # [21:37] <jgraham> Oh, look at that. Someone ported SQLite to javascript (via Emscripten)
  701. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Someone already ported Linux to JavaScript, and since then I've ceased to be amazed at any such feat.
  702. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Once you have a full OS and compiler running on an x86 emulator, the rest is all details.
  703. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> (although I realize that this SQLite port is probably not running in a VM, the point holds)
  704. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> s/VM/emulator/
  705. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> s!VM/emulator!a VM/an emulator!
  706. # [21:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Right, the linux port was clever but useless
  707. # [21:40] <jgraham> But people might actaully run webapps backed with SQLite
  708. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Assuming there's a suitable storage layer.
  709. # [21:40] <jgraham> Yeah, fair point
  710. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Which is a bit dicey right know AFAICT.
  711. # [21:40] <jgraham> I guess that will be IndexedDb
  712. # [21:41] <jgraham> Which will be sort of ironic
  713. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Which requires user prompting currently to do anything, and (unlike SQLite) is asynchronous. Unless you want your SQLite library to only be accessible from workers.
  714. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> (maybe SQLite can be used asynchronously too, I dunno)
  715. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> (I guess you could always make the JS wrapper layer for SQLite asynchronous even if SQLite itself normally isn't)
  716. # [21:42] <jgraham> Right. You could have something like the WebSQL API but backed by javascript backed by IndexedDb
  717. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Right. With another abstraction layer implementing IndexedDB on top of local storage for browsers that don't support it.
  718. # [21:43] <jgraham> Heh
  719. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> And then another one that falls back to Flash cookies or something.
  720. # [21:43] <Philip`> Would you end up using any of SQLite beyond its SQL parser/optimiser?
  721. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Philip`, of course. You'd use IndexedDB by storing the entire SQLite database as one big database entry. Or alternatively, by storing each page as a separate database entry in a flat table.
  722. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Probably per-page makes more sense.
  723. # [21:44] <jgraham> Maybe you could also make the backend one of these virtual-filesystem APIs that people have started developing
  724. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> I mean, abstraction layers are no fun if you don't reimplement the same abstractions at multiple levels so that you get all the inefficiency but none of the convenience.
  725. # [21:44] <jgraham> Although I guess they will take longer before they are universially avaliable
  726. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> That's why you have a polyfill that falls back to IndexedDB, then localStorage, then Flash cookies, then synchronous XHR to a server back-end that stores user-specific data based on an id.
  727. # [21:45] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  728. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> I mean, if you could rely on the availability of basic functionality, it would hardly be proper web development.
  729. # [21:48] <jgraham> Blame Microsoft/Google for not making it possible/easy to upgrade the default browsers on their respective OSes?
  730. # [21:50] <jgraham> (it wouldn't be the whole story ofc but it would get you some of the way there)
  731. # [21:50] <Yuhong> "This section discusses this issue, providing various elements of comparison and what it would take to allow authors to actually use OBJECT instead of IFRAME. "
  732. # [21:50] <Yuhong> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-frames-970331.html
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  734. # [22:04] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the point of http+aes is to enable someone to store private content on a CDN that is trusted not to vandalise data but isn't trusted not to passively copy data
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  752. # [23:06] <rniwa> annevk: yt?
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  765. # [23:53] <Hixie> what's a good term for the path that the canvas 2d context has?
  766. # [23:53] <Hixie> ideas so far:
  767. # [23:53] <Hixie> implicit path
  768. # [23:53] <Hixie> global path
  769. # [23:53] <Hixie> default path
  770. # [23:54] <Hixie> context path
  771. # [23:54] <Hixie> default context path
  772. # [23:54] <Hixie> legacy path
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  774. # [23:55] <Hixie> i'll go with "Default path" i think
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  777. # [23:57] <Hixie> heycam: fwiw, i just narrowly avoided an interesting webidl problem
  778. # [23:58] <heycam> Hixie, yeah?
  779. # [23:58] <Hixie> heycam: some code relies on the order of arc() and arcTo() on the canvas API
  780. # [23:58] <heycam> Hixie, the order when enumerating properties on the canvas context object?
  781. # [23:58] <Hixie> heycam: and i was safe only because in splitting the api, those two methods ended up in the same interface
  782. # [23:58] <Hixie> heycam: yeah
  783. # [23:58] <Hixie> heycam: it's possible that one day the relative order of methods in two different interfaces both imported into another interface will matter
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  785. # [23:59] <zewt> "shoot the programmer in the head"
  786. # [23:59] <heycam> Hixie, well currently the order is not significant at all according to the spec
  787. # [23:59] <Hixie> heycam: ah. well then. i have news for you :-)
  788. # [23:59] <heycam> Hixie, i.e. order of interface importing or declarations does not impact property enumeration order
  789. # [23:59] <Hixie> heycam: see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=623437 and its dupes
  790. # Session Close: Wed Mar 07 00:00:00 2012

The end :)