/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 09 00:00:02 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:18] <Hixie> how does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#path-objects (incomplete) look to people so far?
  14. # [00:18] <Hixie> Philip`: your opinion in particular would be most welcome
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  27. # [01:04] <Hixie> ok i give up
  28. # [01:04] <Hixie> wtf should the directionality of a Path object be?
  29. # [01:04] <Hixie> ltr or rtl?
  30. # [01:04] <Hixie> or based on something, and if so, what?
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  32. # [01:05] <Hixie> the "obvious" answer is to base it on the element passed to the Path constructor, if any, or else the root element of the Document of the Window on which the constructor was called, if any, or else ltr
  33. # [01:05] <Hixie> but that seems like a quite complicated answer
  34. # [01:07] <heycam> how does directionality matter?
  35. # [01:07] <heycam> oh for the text layout
  36. # [01:07] <heycam> methods
  37. # [01:07] <heycam> I would say take the direction property of the element passed in
  38. # [01:07] <heycam> and ltr otherwise
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  41. # [01:08] <heycam> but maybe looking at root element, or the canvas element, makes sense as a fallback...
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  43. # [01:08] <Hixie> there's no "canvas element" unless one was passed in
  44. # [01:09] <heycam> ah right
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  48. # [01:09] <Hixie> (otherwise i'd always use it, which is what hte old methods do)
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  52. # [01:12] <Hixie> ok now about half of the text layout algorithm is just working out the default direction to use.
  53. # [01:13] <Hixie> that's just silly.
  54. # [01:14] <Hixie> i wonder if i shouldn't instead use direction:auto...
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  71. # [02:02] <Hixie> hm no you wouldn't want direction:auto
  72. # [02:02] <Hixie> cos then you wouldn't know where you text would end up
  73. # [02:02] <StoneCypher> in a pile
  74. # [02:03] <StoneCypher> on the floor
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  78. # [02:27] <kennyluck_> Hixie, I think in general bidi people want an extra argument to override it's directionality and the default behavior should be the result of applying the first-strong algorithm to the string like how window.alert works.
  79. # [02:27] <Hixie> no, that makes no sense as a default behaviour
  80. # [02:28] <StoneCypher> why
  81. # [02:28] <Hixie> at least not combined with textAlign=start or end
  82. # [02:28] <Hixie> because you wouldn't be able to predict where the text would end up
  83. # [02:28] <StoneCypher> oh. see, i dont' know what textAlign does.
  84. # [02:28] <StoneCypher> which is sad because i'm in the middle of writing internationalization software.
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  87. # [02:30] <kennyluck_> Hixie, in any case I am not a bidi expert and you might want to send a mail to public-i18n-bidi. Aharon would probably give you more useful information.
  88. # [02:30] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure what the spec says now is the right thing for it to say, modulo maybe adding a direction override at some point
  89. # [02:30] <Hixie> but that can wait
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  114. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> interesting case of ruby
  115. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/culture/news/20120308-OYT1T01125.htm
  116. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> uses <rb>
  117. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> though it doesn't really need to
  118. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> anyway, I don't think anybody is ever going to be able to know how that's supposed to be pronounced
  119. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> without the ruby I mean
  120. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> even native speakers
  121. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> 鬼 means demon
  122. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> which is almost always pronounced "oni" as far as I know
  123. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> but he's using it as "keen" (キーン)
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  128. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> oh, it's "ki" in some words I guess
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  193. # [07:08] <glob> .
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  200. # [07:31] <rahaman> Hi all, I need some clarification on border attributes for a <td> element, this is the relevant email I sent to the mailing list http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/034993.html..
  201. # [07:32] <rahaman> can some one please spend 5 mins to help me with this ?
  202. # [07:33] <Hixie> sounds like a bug in webkit
  203. # [07:33] <Hixie> the spec in question would be the CSS spec, though, not the HTML spec
  204. # [07:34] <Hixie> (also, so that my comments aren't completely useless to you :-), know that you can simplify your DOCTYPE to just <!DOCTYPE HTML>)
  205. # [07:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: surely the rendering section is relevant
  206. # [07:35] <Hixie> not in this case, as far as i can tell
  207. # [07:35] <zcorpan> oh
  208. # [07:35] <Hixie> oh... wait...
  209. # [07:35] <Hixie> maybe it is...
  210. # [07:36] <Hixie> the border-width is ending up zero in webkit
  211. # [07:36] <Hixie> interesting
  212. # [07:36] <Hixie> wonder what the rendering section says about that...
  213. # [07:37] <rahaman> hixie: yeah i have debugged the relevant code in WebKit..
  214. # [07:38] <Hixie> this does seem like a webkit bug, but zcorpan is right, it's a default rendering rules bug
  215. # [07:38] <rahaman> if i dont mention border-width explicitly, the border-width is coming as zero for <td> because of some code we have written in webkit...
  216. # [07:38] <rahaman> n when I discussed about whay those part of the code is thr in #webkit, we could not find out the reason as this is old code..
  217. # [07:40] <rahaman> so me & Kling decided to discuss this here to get a clear idea of the expected behavior in such cases...
  218. # [07:41] <rahaman> hixie: I did not understand this "but zcorpan is right, it's a default rendering rules bug " :( can u pls elaborate a bit?
  219. # [07:41] <zcorpan> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#tables
  220. # [07:41] <zcorpan> that specifies the expected behavior
  221. # [07:41] <zcorpan> webkit does something different
  222. # [07:42] <zcorpan> i'd recommend writing tests against that, see that it passes other browsers (it it doesn't, maybe the spec is still wrong), and then implement it :-)
  223. # [07:42] <zcorpan> and share the tests :-)
  224. # [07:43] <zcorpan> (this can be checked with javascript so you could use http://w3c-test.org/resources/testharness.js )
  225. # [07:43] <Hixie> webkit seems to have some default rule for border-width even when there's no border attribute
  226. # [07:43] <Hixie> which contradicts the section zcorpan cited
  227. # [07:44] <Hixie> (sorry, would have explained earlier but ran into a bug with the status annotation script!)
  228. # [07:44] <rahaman> ok sure thanks zcorpan & Hixie for your time...
  229. # [07:44] <Hixie> (in case anyone got 500s changing annotations recently, that should be fixed now...)
  230. # [07:44] <zcorpan> np
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  241. # [08:14] <zcorpan> hah, making <source> void ended up in "positive effects" of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/issue-179_no_change
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  248. # [08:29] <hsivonen> has Chrome removed UI for character encoding?
  249. # [08:30] <hsivonen> I don't find the UI in Chrome 19 dev on Linux
  250. # [08:32] <hsivonen> annevk: is Chrome supposed to support iso-2022-jp?
  251. # [08:32] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  252. # [08:33] <hsivonen> nevermind
  253. # [08:34] <hsivonen> what should I read to learn key differences and similarities of iso-2022-jp and shift_jis?
  254. # [08:35] <hsivonen> on the level of how they handle incoming bytes
  255. # [08:36] * hsivonen studies http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#legacy-multi-octet-japanese-encodings
  256. # [08:37] <hsivonen> is there a trick that's equivalent with multiplying by 188 that can be performed in the ALU?
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  261. # [08:56] <annevk> hsivonen: what do you mean with ALU?
  262. # [08:59] <hsivonen> annevk: arithmetic-logic unit
  263. # [09:00] <hsivonen> annevk: the part of the CPU that evaluates +, -, ==, <=, &, |, etc. but not *, / or %
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  265. # [09:01] <annevk> decoding on the CPU? sounds like fun
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  267. # [09:01] <hsivonen> annevk: all the "multiplications" in UTF-8 are powers of two, so they can be implemented as shifts instead of multiplications
  268. # [09:02] <hsivonen> annevk: so you can do UTF-8 within the ALU without using multiplications
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  276. # [09:11] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah I know, I wasn't sure whether I should use shifts in a specification
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  278. # [09:13] <hsivonen> annevk: Using shifts makes it more obvious what the reasonable implementation would be
  279. # [09:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: see if there's an obvious pattern here http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1370
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  281. # [09:15] <zcorpan> the last two bits are always 0
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  283. # [09:15] <annevk> hsivonen: that's certainly true
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  289. # [09:33] <annevk> hsivonen: I guess I can change that later again
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  294. # [09:49] <annevk> hmm FocusEvent?!
  295. # [09:50] <annevk> guess I have to properly review DOM 3 Events again at one point...
  296. # [09:52] <annevk> didn't know Iceweasel was still a thing
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  298. # [09:54] <hsivonen> annevk: AFAIK, the copyright licensing of the Firefox icon has changed since the disagreement with Debian, but Mozilla still hasn't given Debian a trademark license
  299. # [09:55] <hsivonen> (I might be wrong about the part after "but" and I realize that Debian folks will recognize the way I formulated the after-"but" part as being part of the problem)
  300. # [09:56] <hsivonen> annevk: Mark Pilgrim always remembered to point this out before he went 410
  301. # [10:03] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no)
  302. # [10:08] <charlvn> i wasn't aware that anything changed with the debian ice* situation, afaik that is still all that debian ships with
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  304. # [10:10] <annevk> hsivonen: yes, made me think of him too again when I saw it
  305. # [10:10] <annevk> hsivonen: colleague of mine apparently uses that version of Gecko
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  307. # [10:15] <hsivonen> annevk: it's worth noting that Iceweasel in Debian Stable has an ancient Gecko
  308. # [10:16] <hsivonen> charlvn: from the POV of what Debian ships, nothing has changed
  309. # [10:16] <hsivonen> charlvn: but the icon *copyright* licensing objection is now moot
  310. # [10:17] <hsivonen> charlvn: of course, the copyright licensing of the icon doesn't matter unless you are trademark licensed, too
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  321. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I updated to validator datatype code today to support having a space in place of the T for the time microsyntax.
  322. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> I made some other changes that I now realize you might not have wanted made, so I'd like to ask you about those
  323. # [10:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what other changes?
  324. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: you pinged me the other day
  325. # [10:44] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com)
  326. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I changed the milliseconds checking so that it requires 1, 2, or 3 digits instead of just one or more
  327. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> but then I remembered you might have outstanding feedback on that
  328. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> waiting to hear back from Hixie
  329. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> if that's the case I'll back the code out
  330. # [10:46] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, http://validator.w3.org/checklink?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Fdump%2Frefs.html&hide_type=all&recursive=on&depth=&check=Check claims that http://dvcs.w3 urls redirect to https://dvcs.w3 ones, but that doesn't seem to happen in my browser
  331. # [10:46] <Ms2ger> Do you happen to know anything about that? :)
  332. # [10:46] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i first read "validator doctype code ..."
  333. # [10:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if your code matches the current spec on milliseconds, it's ok
  334. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  335. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so one other change I made had the effect of not reporting 1996-01-01T12:05Z as an error
  336. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> that is, second-less times in global-date-and-time strings
  337. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> but that one I now remember that you were still waiting on feedback from Hixie on
  338. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> iirc
  339. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: does not happen in my browser either
  340. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> so I have no idea why checklink is reporting that it does
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  342. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> it would be nice if it actually did, because if you try to push to http://dvcs.w3/.org it will fail
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  347. # [11:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16203#c2
  348. # [11:03] * MikeSmith looks
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  351. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: btw, I noticed you did a pusj to the testsuite on dvcs.w3.org but it didn't get pushed to github. Did you get any error message when you pushed?
  352. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: under WebAppSec product, right?
  353. # [11:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, just name it CSP I guess
  354. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> hai
  355. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I told you about it, no? :)
  356. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> oh
  357. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  358. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> so I fixed it after that
  359. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> sorry ..
  360. # [11:06] <annevk> so HTML / WebApps was 1-4 correct?
  361. # [11:06] <Ms2ger> :)
  362. # [11:06] <annevk> of May that is
  363. # [11:07] <annevk> splendid, looks like I'll miss Queen's Day again
  364. # [11:08] <jgraham> You have a whole holiday dedictaed to singing Bohemian Rhapsody?
  365. # [11:09] <annevk> what lame shit is this
  366. # [11:09] <annevk> Jiro Dreams of Sushi is not out in NL until May 31
  367. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: added
  368. # [11:17] <foolip> Hixie, thanks
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  372. # [11:24] <annevk> what is the simplest way to test encoders?
  373. # [11:25] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326D33.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  374. # [11:25] <annevk> using URL query strings might be an easy way...
  375. # [11:26] <jgraham> Yeah, that's a technique I used for shipping raw bytes around
  376. # [11:26] <annevk> ?{code points} -> ?{octets}
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  378. # [11:27] <jgraham> Either that or encode all the input data as specially constructed PNGs that you can read off a canvas
  379. # [11:27] <jgraham> (not a serious suggestion)
  380. # [11:27] <annevk> not sure how that helps with seeing how the euro character gets encoded in octets using the gbk encoding
  381. # [11:30] <jgraham> Ah, I was thinking about a different part of the problem. But sure, query strings. Form submission. There aren't that many places where encoder behaviour is exposed, right?
  382. # [11:31] <annevk> forms require submission, or is there some way to get the data from script?
  383. # [11:31] <annevk> there's not that many places and the less the better, but for testing...
  384. # [11:32] <jgraham> Well requiring submission isn't obviously a problem
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  387. # [11:40] <annevk> whoa
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  389. # [11:40] <annevk> in Gecko the character is stripped, in Opera it's encoded as two octets, and in Chrome/Safari it's one
  390. # [11:41] <annevk> and IE just gives the code point back...?!
  391. # [11:41] <annevk> not sure what that means
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  393. # [11:43] <zcorpan> it means content doesn't rely on either behavior and you can choose what's least insane
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  397. # [11:50] <jgraham> Alternative theory: it means that some content relies on each behaviour and you are screwed whatever you do
  398. # [11:51] <annevk> I also like that it's different between gbk and gb18030
  399. # [11:51] <annevk> well except in Opera, which uses what I think is the gb18030 mapping for gbk
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  406. # [12:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Was your summary of the DRM threads for some other forum than public-html itself?
  407. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: didn't finish it
  408. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> also I'm not caught up on the thread so there's probably been more requirements popping up in the mean time
  409. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw you saw my other question? about second-less times?
  410. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120309#l-336
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  412. # [12:18] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can you share your unfinished summary?
  413. # [12:19] * Joins: gwicke_ (~gabriel@46.115.21.36)
  414. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> I guess I could
  415. # [12:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the spec makes seconds optional, right?
  416. # [12:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and your code made them optional, too?
  417. # [12:22] <hsivonen> seems alright if so
  418. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  419. # [12:23] <zcorpan> what happened to the pdf version of the spec?
  420. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I asked because I had thought you had asked a long time back for Hixie to make them required and were waiting on a response
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  423. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> I had note in the microsyntaxes description about it
  424. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions#date-or-time
  425. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> "Note: The validator currently allows some values that the HTML specification prohibits; for example, it allows 1996-01-01T12:05:25 (a date and time with no time-zone information) and 12:05:25Z (a time with no date but with time-zone information)"
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  427. # [12:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: seems unlikely that I would have had asked for seconds to be mandatory
  428. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> dunno why I would have noted it then instead of just changing the code to match the spec
  429. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  430. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> oh
  431. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> hmm
  432. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> sorry, I misread my own note!
  433. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> sigh
  434. # [12:26] <hsivonen> :-)
  435. # [12:32] <zcorpan> "Font Awesome icons work great in buttons.
  436. # [12:32] <zcorpan> <a class="btn" href="#">
  437. # [12:32] <zcorpan> <i class="icon-refresh"></i> Refresh</a>" http://fortawesome.github.com/Font-Awesome/
  438. # [12:34] <hsivonen> is "fo*r*t" vs. "fo*n*t" some kind of kerning-related joke?
  439. # [12:35] <zcorpan> hah, didn't even see that
  440. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I'm too lazy to download the package. Does the font use the PUA for stuff that's not in Unicode? what about for stuff that is in Unicode?
  441. # [12:43] <annevk> it uses code points such as 0xF083
  442. # [12:43] <hsivonen> does anyone want to guess when ICON FACEBOOK SIGN is going to appear in Emoji?
  443. # [12:44] <annevk> which is PUA
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  446. # [12:46] <jgraham> Do we already have ICON APPLE WITH SINGLE LEAF AND BITE REMOVED?
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  450. # [12:48] <annevk> hsivonen: I think it uses PUA for everything
  451. # [12:48] <annevk> which is not very awesome if you ask me
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  457. # [13:01] <zcorpan> annevk: wow i expected it to just use the ascii range or something
  458. # [13:01] <zcorpan> jgraham: there's a de facto PUA code point for that :-P
  459. # [13:02] <jgraham> zcorpan: I am somewhat ashamed to admit I know :)
  460. # [13:02] <matjas> 
  461. # [13:04] <matjas> woah, i didn’t know U+F8FF can also represent the Windows logo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Use_(Unicode)#Example_code_point_U.2BF8FF
  462. # [13:05] <matjas> also, “The ConScript Unicode Registry suggests it be used for the Klingon glyph "KLINGON MUMMIFICATION GLYPH." This is followed by e.g. Code2000.”
  463. # [13:10] * Quits: izhak (1000@188.168.203.136) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  464. # [13:18] <hsivonen> I wonder what the glyph that Ubuntu's Gnome Terminal uses for that code point represents
  465. # [13:18] <hsivonen> it's like a short minus sign with an acute accent and a mirrored other tilted line below
  466. # [13:20] * hsivonen can imagine an epic debate about whether Ubuntu should ship Tengwar or Klingon support in that range
  467. # [13:21] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  468. # [13:22] <zcorpan> woah, i didn't know margins of the root element don't collapse
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  475. # [13:37] <annevk> via Marcos: http://omfgdogs.com/
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  480. # [13:54] * zcorpan also learns http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1374
  481. # [13:56] <annevk> seems every browser but Gecko agrees
  482. # [13:56] <annevk> on the same height
  483. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> Then everyone is wrong, obviously :)
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  492. # [14:11] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  493. # [14:12] <zcorpan> hmm. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1375 isn't covered properly
  494. # [14:16] <Ms2ger> Need body too?
  495. # [14:17] <zcorpan> no; the quirks spec would currently render it as http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1376
  496. # [14:18] <zcorpan> so i need to substract the margin/padding/border of the body when the root element is the containing block
  497. # [14:18] <zcorpan> another day
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  504. # [14:43] <StoneCypher> uh
  505. # [14:44] <StoneCypher> someone just told me html5 discarded all control over what tags may go inside what others
  506. # [14:44] <StoneCypher> so <h1> would now be legal inside <span> and so on
  507. # [14:44] <StoneCypher> i went to find the html5 doctype as a counter, but apparently there isn't one
  508. # [14:44] <StoneCypher> is he correct?
  509. # [14:44] <Ms2ger> That's nonsense
  510. # [14:44] <StoneCypher> okay so
  511. # [14:44] <StoneCypher> where do i find a standard to defend that
  512. # [14:44] <StoneCypher> because he's the ban-happiest troll op in history
  513. # [14:45] <Ms2ger> See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#element-definitions
  514. # [14:45] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Mar/att-0007/AB_List_of_Concerns-20120306.htm
  515. # [14:45] <annevk> might be worthy of a review
  516. # [14:45] <hsivonen> StoneCypher: maybe it's not worth debating with ban-happy trolls
  517. # [14:45] <StoneCypher> unfortunately he also bans if you disengage
  518. # [14:45] <annevk> (the contents, not the Word-generated source code)
  519. # [14:45] <StoneCypher> and since freenode doesn't give a damn about abuse, there's sort of no option
  520. # [14:45] <Ms2ger> Concerns about?
  521. # [14:46] <StoneCypher> Ms2ger: is <h1> now valid inside <span>
  522. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> No
  523. # [14:46] <annevk> it's not?
  524. # [14:46] <annevk> oh maybe just inside <a>
  525. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-span-element
  526. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> Content model:
  527. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> Phrasing content.
  528. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> Phrasing content is the text of the document, as well as elements that mark up that text at the intra-paragraph level. Runs of phrasing content form paragraphs.
  529. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> a (if it contains only phrasing content)
  530. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> abbr
  531. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> area (if it is a descendant of a map element)
  532. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> audio
  533. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> b
  534. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> bdi
  535. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> bdo
  536. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> br
  537. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> button
  538. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> canvas
  539. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> cite
  540. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> code
  541. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> command
  542. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> data
  543. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> datalist
  544. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> del (if it contains only phrasing content)
  545. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> dfn
  546. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> em
  547. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> embed
  548. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> i
  549. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> iframe
  550. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> img
  551. # [14:47] <annevk> dude
  552. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> input
  553. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> ins (if it contains only phrasing content)
  554. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> kbd
  555. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> keygen
  556. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> label
  557. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> link (if the itemprop attribute is present)
  558. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> map (if it contains only phrasing content)
  559. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> mark
  560. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> math
  561. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> meta (if the itemprop attribute is present)
  562. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> meter
  563. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> noscript
  564. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> object
  565. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> output
  566. # [14:48] <tomasf> haha
  567. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> progress
  568. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> q
  569. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> ruby
  570. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> s
  571. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> samp
  572. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> script
  573. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> select
  574. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> small
  575. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> span
  576. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> strong
  577. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> sub
  578. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> sup
  579. # [14:48] <beverloo> :-)
  580. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> svg
  581. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> textarea
  582. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> time
  583. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> u
  584. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> var
  585. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> video
  586. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> wbr
  587. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> Text
  588. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> Woops
  589. # [14:49] * Ms2ger blames Hixie
  590. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> That totally doesn't look like it will be newline-separated when you paste it
  591. # [14:50] <StoneCypher> Ms2ger: thank you for the assist
  592. # [14:50] <jgraham> Oh, just admit that you are trying to catch up with Hixie in the stats
  593. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> jgraham, ssh
  594. # [14:50] <annevk> has to catch up with you first
  595. # [14:50] <annevk> I think Hixie is writing more than me
  596. # [14:51] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: hij1nx)
  597. # [14:51] * Ms2ger goes for zewt first
  598. # [14:52] <Ms2ger> "Hixie's faithful follower, AryehGregor, ..."
  599. # [14:53] <annevk> are you going to copy & paste a bunch of nonsense again? might have to get paul_irish for a ban :p
  600. # [14:54] * ChanServ sets mode: +o annevk
  601. # [14:54] <Ms2ger> Who needs paul_irish for that? :)
  602. # [14:54] <@annevk> mwaha
  603. # [14:54] <@annevk> fear
  604. # [14:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: x = x + x + {...188 times}
  605. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> Make that {...47 times} and add << 2?
  606. # [14:57] <Philip`> Or I suppose 256*x - 64*x - 4*x
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  608. # [14:59] <Philip`> but an integer multiply in Core i7 apparently has latency of about 3 cycles (and can do one per cycle), so x*188 is probably faster than any longer expression
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  610. # [15:03] <Dashiva> Better write a test to find out
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  614. # [15:10] <hsivonen> the standard box model is the first item on http://www.impressivewebs.com/css-the-bad-parts/ ...
  615. # [15:10] * StoneCypher doesn't actually think the box model is a bad thing
  616. # [15:11] * StoneCypher thinks most of people's horror towards the box model is vestigal memory of broken browsers
  617. # [15:13] <woef> I think it's because people over-use width declarations in their css.
  618. # [15:14] <Philip`> (Looks like GCC actually generates effectively "((x + x << 1) << 4 - x) << 2" on i586, and an imul instruction on i686+)
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  626. # [15:55] <Dashiva> Philip`: Cool
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  629. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: don't see zcorpan around but we're publishing next Thursday so need the date on the diffs doc switched to the 15th
  630. # [16:07] <@annevk> can do
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  633. # [16:09] <@annevk> MikeSmith: done
  634. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> tak
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  638. # [16:14] <hsivonen> sucks for roc's vacation for all this DRM and video "context" stuff to come up right now. :-(
  639. # [16:14] <roc> hmm?
  640. # [16:14] <roc> what video "context" stuff?
  641. # [16:15] <hsivonen> roc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0315.html
  642. # [16:16] <roc> sigh
  643. # [16:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well now you told him about it, it sucks
  644. # [16:16] <jgraham> :)
  645. # [16:16] <hsivonen> roc: sorry, from your posts to public-html, it looked like you were reading it already
  646. # [16:17] <roc> I'm working today actually
  647. # [16:17] <jgraham> Europe turned out to be more boring than you expected?
  648. # [16:18] <roc> yeah, I need a holiday from my holiday
  649. # [16:18] <roc> actually I just wanted to check out the Paris office.
  650. # [16:18] * Quits: woef (~woef@91.183.84.141) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  651. # [16:18] <volkmar> roc: our best office ;)
  652. # [16:18] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@12.14.132.2)
  653. # [16:18] <roc> you wish :-)
  654. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> You've got glazou nearby ;)
  655. # [16:19] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.29.21.241) (Remote host closed the connection)
  656. # [16:21] <roc> yeah, he came in and we had a good chat
  657. # [16:21] <roc> you should come in too so we can talk
  658. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> No thanks, bz has got me lot of review comments I need to fix
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  661. # [16:22] <roc> foiled again!
  662. # [16:22] <jgraham> Surely meeting Ms2ger isn't actually possible?
  663. # [16:22] <volkmar> feels like it
  664. # [16:22] <volkmar> I tried a few times
  665. # [16:23] <jgraham> Dude is either an AI or lives under a volcano. In belgium.
  666. # [16:23] <StoneCypher> the two are not mutually exclusive
  667. # [16:23] <StoneCypher> an ai like that might want to be near geothermal power
  668. # [16:24] <roc> jgraham: yeah, so far. But I live in hope.
  669. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> I hear NZ has nice volcanoes...
  670. # [16:26] <roc> yeah
  671. # [16:26] <roc> that's why I live there.
  672. # [16:26] <Ms2ger> As good a reason as any
  673. # [16:26] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@12.14.132.2) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  674. # [16:26] <roc> it's been weeks since I've seen a volcano, and it's starting to get to me
  675. # [16:27] <jgraham> You know, there are other types of mountain that are less likely to kill you?
  676. # [16:27] <jgraham> s/,//
  677. # [16:27] <roc> yeah, but what a way to go
  678. # [16:28] <roc> anyway, the Auckland volcanic field is dormant. Sadly.
  679. # [16:28] <charlvn> or just buy a lava lamp instead
  680. # [16:28] <roc> chances of a deadly eruption in my lifetime are insignificant.
  681. # [16:28] <charlvn> much safer
  682. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> Wouldn't really be in your lifetime, I guess
  683. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> Maybe at the end of your lifetime
  684. # [16:29] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: bye)
  685. # [16:32] <roc> The geologists claim they'd detect it in time to evacuate, although the behavior of the Auckland field is not completely understood, since the most recent eruption (Rangitoto) was quite anomalous
  686. # [16:33] <roc> you don't want to get me started talking about volcanoes, honestly
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  690. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> Not even if it distracts you from public-html? :)
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  693. # [16:42] <roc> I say that for your sake, not for mine
  694. # [16:45] <roc> hsivonen: thanks for fighting the good fight on public-html
  695. # [16:45] <jgraham> Well talk enough about Volcanos and you will make me slightly less unhappy I don't live in NZ
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  698. # [16:47] <hsivonen> roc: I hope the effort results in a less bad outcome
  699. # [16:48] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYYKMMMCCLXIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  700. # [16:48] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  701. # [16:48] * jgraham would also like to express his appreciation for all the people who have the enery to engage with the DRM thread
  702. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> Same, with s/the DRM thread/the HTMLWG/
  703. # [16:49] <jgraham> and s/enery/energy/
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  709. # [17:07] <smaug____> Ms2ger: well, HTMLWG in general isn't that depressing, but the DRM discussion is
  710. # [17:08] <Lachy> doesn't seem like we'll be able to get any sort of outcome, so long as they continue to withold the requirements for a usable CDM, and refuse to discuss essential implementation details.
  711. # [17:08] <smaug____> yeah
  712. # [17:10] <Lachy> nor while we're forced to discuss only with service providers, rather than the rights holders demanding DRM for their content.
  713. # [17:11] <Lachy> since, no matter what alternative technical solution (other than 3rd party CDMs) we could come up with for offering protection, we'll have no idea if it'll be acceptable to the rights holders.
  714. # [17:12] <Lachy> No idea what minimum level of obfuscation and disabling of certain features (e.g. Save As, etc.) would be acceptable
  715. # [17:17] <AryehGregor> Lachy, are you assuming the criteria are actually being set by technical people, rather than the DRM systems being concocted to make management or shareholders happy without any particular technical requirements at all?
  716. # [17:18] <AryehGregor> Maybe you're right, but I'm not so confident.
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  739. # [18:08] <kennyluck_> In CSS, in what situation would some contents be clipped to the content edge, besides 'background-clip: content-box'?
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  741. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> In IE9?
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  745. # [18:12] <kennyluck_> Ms2ger, in the theory of the standards.
  746. # [18:13] <kennyluck_> I am reading CSS3 B&B and I don't quite understand why it defines the radii of the content edges.
  747. # [18:13] <kennyluck_> besides, well, for replaced elements.
  748. # [18:14] <roc> yeah, those :-)
  749. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> I'd suggest TabAtkins_, if he isn't at sxsw
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  754. # [18:31] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  755. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> Morning Glazkov
  756. # [18:35] <dglazkov> Hey, Ms2ger
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  758. # [18:40] <dglazkov> annevk: got a sec?
  759. # [18:41] <annevk> yeah
  760. # [18:41] <annevk> many secs
  761. # [18:42] <dglazkov> annevk: have you heard suggestions of adding selector methods to DocumentFragment before?
  762. # [18:42] <dglazkov> as in documentFragment.querySelector()?
  763. # [18:42] <annevk> I think that's already done
  764. # [18:42] <dglazkov> oh?
  765. # [18:42] <dglazkov> cool
  766. # [18:42] <dglazkov> where?
  767. # [18:42] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/#nodeselector
  768. # [18:43] <annevk> or http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/#interface-definitions for v2
  769. # [18:43] <dglazkov> weee
  770. # [18:43] <dglazkov> that's great
  771. # [18:44] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  772. # [18:45] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  775. # [18:46] <dglazkov> btw, this back-referencing is impossible to follow. Unless you know this spec exists, it's unknowable. I wonder if Selectors API should be a dependency in DOM4, and then the "implements" should be in DOM4 spec.
  776. # [18:46] <annevk> you knew about querySelector...
  777. # [18:47] <annevk> maybe querySelector should be defined in the DOM itself, but I dunno
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  779. # [18:48] <annevk> is "Decode and encode" a reasonable section name for a section defining the "decode" and "encode" algorithms specification must use?
  780. # [18:48] <annevk> maybe not must, but would typically use
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  782. # [18:49] <dglazkov> what else could it be called? :) sounds good to me.
  783. # [18:49] <annevk> k thanks, was wondering whether it lacked a word or something
  784. # [18:50] <dglazkov> add a word "Awesome". that word always makes everything sounds better.
  785. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> WebDecode
  786. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> XEncode
  787. # [18:52] <smaug____> yeah, you need "Web" somewhere there
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  789. # [18:52] <dglazkov> WebAwesome
  790. # [18:53] <annevk> but this spec is the opposite of awesome :)
  791. # [18:53] <annevk> encodings are a big legacy mess
  792. # [18:53] <dglazkov> :)
  793. # [18:54] <rniwa> annevk: can we push back on region's spec not to use node list?
  794. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> Sure
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  796. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> Regions' OM stuff should be ignored at this point, aiui
  797. # [18:55] <annevk> rniwa: so we want Node[] instead?
  798. # [18:55] <rniwa> annevk: yeah
  799. # [18:55] <annevk> is that used somewhere already?
  800. # [18:55] <rniwa> annevk: the problem is that as it's currently spec'ed
  801. # [18:55] <rniwa> annevk: we'll have to do the layout whenever the list is accessed :(
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  804. # [18:55] <rniwa> annevk: because the list of elements that belong to the same named flow can change due to style resolution
  805. # [18:55] <annevk> good times
  806. # [18:56] <annevk> you can make it a static NodeList though
  807. # [18:56] <rniwa> annevk: it makes very little sense for it to be dynamic node list
  808. # [18:56] <rniwa> annevk: right.
  809. # [18:56] <rniwa> annevk: that'll be fine with me
  810. # [18:56] <annevk> that's what selectors-api has
  811. # [18:56] <rniwa> annevk: but dynamic node list makes very little sense and will hurt performance
  812. # [18:56] <rniwa> annevk: you mean static nodelist?
  813. # [18:56] <annevk> yeah
  814. # [18:57] <annevk> you just say in the spec return a static list of elements as determined at x (i suppose)
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  816. # [18:57] <rniwa> annevk: apparently i've been kicked out of www-style for some mail deamon issue
  817. # [18:57] <rniwa> don't know why :(
  818. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> File a bug
  819. # [18:58] <annevk> i left voluntarily, can't help you there
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  821. # [18:58] <rniwa> annevk: also, nobody knows me in www-style
  822. # [18:58] <rniwa> annevk: ok
  823. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> That's where Regions issues live
  824. # [18:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: yeah, I guess I should.
  825. # [18:58] <annevk> rniwa: could ask hober to help you out maybe or TabAtkins_
  826. # [18:58] <rniwa> annevk: okay
  827. # [18:58] <rniwa> TabAtkins_, hober: yt?
  828. # [18:58] <hober> yo
  829. # [18:59] <hober> we've already pushed back on the regions om stuff, but if you'd like i can do more of that
  830. # [19:00] <rniwa> hober: can we not add another live node list?
  831. # [19:00] <rniwa> hober: it makes very little sense there
  832. # [19:00] <hober> especially when you consider that regions won't (always) be made up of elements
  833. # [19:01] <hober> there won't be nodes to make up your node list
  834. # [19:02] <rniwa> hober: yeah...
  835. # [19:02] <rniwa> hober: i'm fine with static node list
  836. # [19:03] <rniwa> hober: but live node list is really bad because it needs to be updated/invalidated possibly on every style recalc :(
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  839. # [19:07] <rniwa> Ms2ger, annevk, hober: filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16286
  840. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> Ta
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  847. # [19:30] <annevk> okay you guys
  848. # [19:30] <annevk> win
  849. # [19:31] <annevk> i will rename octet to byte
  850. # [19:31] <annevk> meh
  851. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> Why?
  852. # [19:31] <annevk> (reason: byte order mark)
  853. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> Could call it OOM :)
  854. # [19:32] <bga> interesting
  855. # [19:32] <bga> http://pastehtml.com/view/bqsiaej5b.html
  856. # [19:32] <annevk> I thought we were against neologisms?
  857. # [19:32] <bga> i can observe real css values diring animation
  858. # [19:32] <bga> is it standard?
  859. # [19:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: but you like octet?
  860. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> I don't mind it
  861. # [19:33] <annevk> bga: what do you mean observe?
  862. # [19:34] <bga> hover <a>
  863. # [19:34] <bga> opacity changes lively
  864. # [19:34] <annevk> oh hmm
  865. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> I don't mind byte much either
  866. # [19:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: octet sounds nicer to me, but it's kind of an uphill battle I reckon
  867. # [19:42] <annevk> the only problem is some legacy files...
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  869. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Sounds like the web
  870. # [19:46] <annevk> done
  871. # [19:46] <annevk> also renamed the files
  872. # [19:46] <annevk> please report any links that link to the old stuff
  873. # [19:47] <annevk> violating Cool URIs don't change like it's '99
  874. # [19:49] * Philip` dislikes octet, since he's never heard anybody use it in the real world, so it just makes the standards world seem more foreign to the developers who have to interact with it
  875. # [19:51] <Philip`> (and everybody understands that a byte is 8 bits, and anybody on a bizarre architecture where it's not 8 bits will know that they're on a bizarre architecture and will know to be careful when anyone else talks about bytes)
  876. # [19:52] <annevk> I nevertheless just added a sentence for those with bizarre architectures
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  894. # [20:46] <annevk> teehee, someone reviewing XHR
  895. # [20:46] <annevk> been a while
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  897. # [20:48] <smaug____> annevk: kyle?
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  899. # [20:48] <smaug____> oh, no
  900. # [20:49] <Ms2ger> Heh, it's weird Glenn
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  902. # [20:59] <annevk> whoa
  903. # [20:59] <annevk> Nøgne Ø has sake too
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  905. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> http://html5.clearboth.org/spec.html < wut
  906. # [21:06] <annevk> partial translation to Korean?
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  914. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> Hmm, should Attr be an EventTarget?
  915. # [21:50] <annevk> ew no
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  917. # [21:55] <smaug____> please no
  918. # [21:55] <annevk> someone willing to raise that to "over my dead body"?
  919. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> Apparently not
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  921. # [21:58] <smaug____> Ms2ger: I think only gecko has event listeners on Attr
  922. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> Even better
  923. # [21:59] <smaug____> and that is just because attrnodes happen to be nodes, and all nodes are eventtargets in gecko
  924. # [21:59] <smaug____> though, have tested this for ages
  925. # [22:00] <Ms2ger> How's the MutationObserver work going?
  926. # [22:00] <smaug____> coming :)
  927. # [22:01] <smaug____> annevk: btw, do you know if someone is implementing MutationObservers Presto
  928. # [22:01] <annevk> not yet
  929. # [22:01] <annevk> but it's being planned for
  930. # [22:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: how is removing Attr nodes going?
  931. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> Nothing much happening
  932. # [22:02] <smaug____> Ms2ger: are you waiting for something ?
  933. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> Time
  934. # [22:03] <smaug____> the thing that no one has
  935. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> Get me a minion? :)
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  940. # [22:08] <jamesr_> Ms2ger, does "weird Glenn" = the Glenn that isn't zewt?
  941. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> Yes
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  944. # [22:11] <zewt> (hi)
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  946. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Hi, smart Glenn
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  948. # [22:15] <jamesr_> zewt, tbh sometimes you're weird too, but you definitely aren't "weird Glenn"
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  950. # [22:15] <zewt> well, i *am* on a spec irc channel
  951. # [22:16] <smaug____> "CDM APIs are not that complex" eh. CDM API needs to be pretty close to NPAPI to have the functionality netflix&co want
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  961. # [22:48] <annevk> zewt: other glenn is too
  962. # [22:48] <annevk> zewt: just different channel
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  972. # [23:06] <annevk> new WebApps charter: http://www.w3.org/2012/03/webapps-proposed-charter.html
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  975. # [23:11] <oal> Compression is not in the websocket spec yet, right?
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  981. # [23:21] <Hixie> oal: not yet
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  984. # [23:24] <oal> Hixie: too bad. I found something from 2010 that said it was targeted for Websockets 2, when can we expect to see that?
  985. # [23:24] <oal> I just hope the websockets spec moves faster than ... ehm, some of the other web specs
  986. # [23:25] <astearns> jgraham: how often does testharness.js change?
  987. # [23:25] <Hixie> oal: the ietf took over the spec after that plan was made
  988. # [23:26] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|afk
  989. # [23:27] <oal> So they no longer have any concrete plans for it?
  990. # [23:27] <Hixie> dunno, i stopped following that work a while back
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  992. # [23:29] <jgraham> astearns: define "change"?
  993. # [23:30] <astearns> when I add the file to the WebKit repository, how often am I going to have to update it?
  994. # [23:31] <astearns> and should I expect changes that will require me to modify tests that were based on an older version?
  995. # [23:31] <jgraham> There are probably custers of changes ever week or two
  996. # [23:31] <jgraham> But it should remain backwards-compatible
  997. # [23:31] <jgraham> At least, the API won't change
  998. # [23:32] <jgraham> If a test method is wrong it might be updated
  999. # [23:32] <astearns> where's the best place to discuss/monitor changes?
  1000. # [23:32] <jgraham> e.g. there is a plan to update assert_throws to more closely match DOM4
  1001. # [23:33] <jgraham> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/resources has a feed or https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js
  1002. # [23:34] <astearns> ok - thanks!
  1003. # [23:34] * Quits: jcarbaugh (~jcarbaugh@12.43.172.10)
  1004. # [23:34] <jgraham> Discussion on public-test-infra mailing list or the html/webapps testing lists
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  1007. # [23:41] <annevk> what is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2012JanMar/0019.html about?
  1008. # [23:41] * annevk is confused
  1009. # [23:43] <astearns> fantasia is taking on additional personas?
  1010. # [23:43] <astearns> *fantasai
  1011. # [23:44] <smaug____> strange
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  1015. # [23:46] <pablof> annevk, jgraham: fyi https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-March/019879.html
  1016. # [23:47] <astearns> (that's why I was asking about testharness.js)
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  1019. # [23:48] * pablof doesn't believe in reading the backlog
  1020. # [23:48] <pablof> :P
  1021. # [23:49] * jgraham thinks that looks excellent :)
  1022. # [23:49] <jgraham> Also that it is sleep time CET
  1023. # [23:50] <smaug____> can't be. EET is still awake
  1024. # [23:53] <annevk> pablof: looks nice
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  1029. # [23:58] <annevk> so the email above is some kind of spam?
  1030. # [23:59] <annevk> anyone from the W3C awake?
  1031. # [23:59] * Joins: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  1032. # [23:59] <annevk> also appeared here now: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2012JanMar/0152.html
  1033. # [23:59] <annevk> MikeSmith: kennyluck_ ^^
  1034. # [23:59] <annevk> [tm]: ^^
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  1036. # Session Close: Sat Mar 10 00:00:00 2012

The end :)