/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 12 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  36. # [02:22] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
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  104. # [06:39] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
  105. # [06:39] <rniwa> or is there anyone else familiar with Callback in Web IDL?
  106. # [06:39] <heycam> rniwa, hey
  107. # [06:40] <rniwa> heycam: hi
  108. # [06:40] <rniwa> heycam: do you know Callback?
  109. # [06:40] <heycam> rniwa, yeah
  110. # [06:41] <rniwa> heycam: so I thought I can turn http://rniwa.com/editing/undomanager.html#dom-domtransaction into a dictionary
  111. # [06:41] <rniwa> heycam: but it isn't so simple
  112. # [06:41] <rniwa> heycam: because they're callback functions, they can't be GC'ed like other objects :(
  113. # [06:41] <heycam> rniwa, oh I see, since it's got Functions
  114. # [06:41] <rniwa> heycam: yeah...
  115. # [06:42] <heycam> rniwa, so what I did when removing [Callback] from the spec was to replace it with two things
  116. # [06:42] <heycam> rniwa, one was the "callback Foo = returntype (args);" syntax
  117. # [06:42] <heycam> that's just for single functions
  118. # [06:42] <rniwa> heycam: kind of embarrassing story but I didn't realize that it won't work 'til I started to implement it
  119. # [06:42] <heycam> and the other is "callback interface Something { attribute whatever; void somefunction(); }"
  120. # [06:43] <heycam> so I think you want the latter
  121. # [06:43] <rniwa> heycam: right.
  122. # [06:43] <rniwa> heycam: yeah, so I do want the latter
  123. # [06:43] <rniwa> heycam: but then I can't really get rid of the interface
  124. # [06:43] <rniwa> heycam: i.e. can't just do document.undoManager.transact({ executeAutomatic: function () {
  125. # [06:43] <rniwa> this.executeAutomatic = function () { alert('foo'); }
  126. # [06:43] <rniwa> alert('bar');
  127. # [06:43] <rniwa> }, undo: function () { alert('baz'); } }); // alerts 'bar'
  128. # [06:43] <heycam> rniwa, no you can do that
  129. # [06:43] <rniwa> heycam: really/
  130. # [06:43] <rniwa> heycam: does it support implicit instantiation?
  131. # [06:44] <heycam> rniwa, yeah, for callback interfaces when it comes to convert the JS value into the "callback interface" value, it'll just inspect the properties on the JS Object for the attributes/methods
  132. # [06:44] <rniwa> heycam: okay.
  133. # [06:44] <heycam> rniwa, it should keep a reference to the JS Object ltself, not make a copy or anything, too
  134. # [06:44] <rniwa> heycam: maybe it's just that webkit's binding code doesn't support it then :\
  135. # [06:45] <rniwa> heycam: right, that'll defeat the point of using callback interface
  136. # [06:45] <heycam> rniwa, there are rules in the spec about how attributes are read/written and operations are invoked on "user objects", which are JS objects that implement callback interfaces
  137. # [06:45] <rniwa> heycam: yeah, I was just reading that section
  138. # [06:45] <heycam> rniwa, hmm, so you *want* to make a copy of the properties on the object passed in?
  139. # [06:45] <rniwa> heycam: no
  140. # [06:45] <rniwa> heycam: I do want to keep the original object
  141. # [06:46] <rniwa> heycam: but... not all functions need to be present on the object
  142. # [06:46] <rniwa> heycam: that's what makes it much more complicated
  143. # [06:46] <rniwa> heycam: DOMTransaction has 5 properties but any one of them can be omitted :(
  144. # [06:46] <heycam> rniwa, ok -- at least the rules should convert the undefined you get from getting the properties into the null
  145. # [06:47] <rniwa> heycam: ah, ok
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  147. # [06:47] <heycam> rniwa, I guess you're concerned about the fact that dictionaries let you specify default values for their members
  148. # [06:47] <heycam> or know whether they are omitted or not
  149. # [06:47] <heycam> oh hang on
  150. # [06:48] <heycam> so currently you have them written as "attribute Function? …"
  151. # [06:48] <rniwa> heycam: well, my problem is more of the fact this is very unusual interface obejct
  152. # [06:48] <rniwa> heycam: yeah, i think that's incorrect
  153. # [06:48] <heycam> actually that might be more correct :)
  154. # [06:48] <rniwa> heycam: but I couldn't find a way to right optional interface methods :(
  155. # [06:48] <heycam> if you want to allow the author to omit them
  156. # [06:48] <rniwa> s/right/write
  157. # [06:48] <rniwa> heycam: oh
  158. # [06:49] <heycam> but that's interesting I hadn't thought of that difference before
  159. # [06:50] <rniwa> heycam: anyway, my concern is that there are no other web standards that use objects like this
  160. # [06:50] <rniwa> heycam: and i was wondering if there were a better way.
  161. # [06:50] <heycam> yeah I am not sure if I have seen someone use "callback interface" yet
  162. # [06:51] <rniwa> e.g. because they're callback functions that then get called much later when user-initiated undo/redo are involved
  163. # [06:51] <heycam> NodeFilter if rewritten with Web IDL would use it, iirc
  164. # [06:51] <rniwa> they have to be kept alive during normal GC cycles
  165. # [06:52] <heycam> still, if you had a dictionary with say some Node members, then they could have references kept to them by the DOM method, so I think it's the same thing here even though they're Functions
  166. # [06:52] <heycam> actually I'm not sure if any APIs *do* keep references to Node dictionary members like that
  167. # [06:55] <heycam> rniwa, anyway I think the strong reference to the Functions that get passed in here would just be part of the semantics of whatever function accepts the DOMTransaction objects
  168. # [06:55] <heycam> rniwa, so probably the bindings code itself doesn't need to worry about it
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  170. # [06:57] <rniwa> heycam: hm... possible.
  171. # [06:57] <rniwa> heycam: at least in webkit, we don't support Function type yet
  172. # [06:57] <heycam> s/strong reference/keeping of the strong reference/
  173. # [06:57] <heycam> ok
  174. # [06:58] <rniwa> heycam: so that'll be an interesting journey :(
  175. # [06:58] <heycam> s/:(/:)/ :)
  176. # [07:04] <rniwa> heycam: thanks for the clarification
  177. # [07:04] * rniwa goes back on hacking
  178. # [07:04] <heycam> rniwa, no problem
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  181. # [07:11] <rniwa> heycam: I guess I'll have to add Callback keyword?
  182. # [07:11] <ruby_on_tails> can anyone tell me why the canvas renders and then vanishes here http://thecodeplayer.com/walkthrough/ps3 (hit view code). but if i take the first 2 lines of the draw() out of it, it works fine
  183. # [07:11] <heycam> rniwa, yes I think you should write it as "callback interface DOMTransaction { … }"
  184. # [07:11] <heycam> rniwa, without the [NoInterfaceObject], since callback interfaces imply that
  185. # [07:11] <rniwa> heycam: right.
  186. # [07:12] <rniwa> heycam: I think it was me reading some very old version of WebIDL spec
  187. # [07:12] <heycam> rniwa, yeah the callback stuff changed in the last couple of months
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  195. # [07:59] <espadrine> ]
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  211. # [08:56] <Hixie> does overflow affect descendants that are position:fixed?
  212. # [08:56] <Hixie> per spec?
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  217. # [09:07] <zcorpan> is a position:fixed element a 'block container box'?
  218. # [09:07] <Hixie> probably
  219. # [09:08] <zcorpan> then afaict the spec says "yes" (can't find anything that calls it out explicitly), but all my browsers disagree
  220. # [09:08] <Hixie> chrome 19 clips 'em
  221. # [09:09] <Hixie> and it regresses a thing i'm doing :-)
  222. # [09:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: ^ maybe css should change if all the browsers agree on this
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  225. # [09:22] <annevk> oh, interface can be used as argument name again too now
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  227. # [09:25] <annevk> heycam|away: event handler stuff looks okay now I guess
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  229. # [09:44] <annevk> heycam|away: I thought callback interface meant the interface is exposed?
  230. # [09:44] <annevk> heycam|away: oh wait, only if there's constants I guess
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  259. # [11:00] <niloy> If I put an event handler on 'scroll' event, how can I determine if the scroll was 'horizontal' or 'vertical'?
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  265. # [11:16] <annevk> is there a bug on upgrading HTML to the new callback syntax?
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  281. # [12:06] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#utf-16
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  283. # [12:07] <annevk> guess I could have done some more arithmetic shifting instead of * 0x400 ...
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  302. # [13:37] <Philip`> ruby_on_tails: I don't see any problem in that demo
  303. # [13:38] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: did you hit the play button ?
  304. # [13:39] <annevk> how would you say bitwise or in prose?
  305. # [13:40] <Philip`> ruby_on_tails: No, but if I do then I don't any problem with the moving orange circle at the end of it
  306. # [13:40] <annevk> is 'Let <var title>byte2</var> be <var>code point</var> bitwise or 0x00FF' understandable?
  307. # [13:40] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: doesnt the typing become very slow after setinterval is defined ?
  308. # [13:40] <ruby_on_tails> and the output starts to flicker
  309. # [13:43] <Philip`> ruby_on_tails: I'd guess that problem is because setInterval won't call draw until 33ms after reloading the code, and the code-replaying thing is probably updating and reloading the code after not much more than 33ms, so it doesn't get much of a chance to render before resetting
  310. # [13:44] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: the actual problem that i am facing is not with the render but with the stacking of the set intervals, the iframe is given a new js code which has a set interval every 33ms, all those setintervals stack up and slow down the entire thing
  311. # [13:44] <Philip`> annevk: Maybe write it as "OR" to distinguish it more clearly from normal prose?
  312. # [13:45] <Philip`> ruby_on_tails: Oh, I suppose that sounds possible, since you're never clearing the intervals
  313. # [13:45] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: the code that you see is supposed to come from users of the site who may not use clearintervals all the time
  314. # [13:46] <ruby_on_tails> so currently i am thinking of going from 1-99999 and clear everything between 2 iframe injections ? thats the only solution i have got
  315. # [13:48] <Philip`> Could you run the code inside an iframe, and make it restart with a fresh document after each code change?
  316. # [13:48] <Philip`> like what http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ does
  317. # [13:49] <Philip`> (iframe.contentWindow.document.open(); iframe.contentWindow.document.write(...); iframe.contentWindow.document.close(); etc)
  318. # [13:51] <annevk> Philip`: thanks
  319. # [13:52] <Philip`> Alternatively, add a setInterval wrapper (var oldSI = window.setInterval; var intervals = []; window.setInterval = function(...) { var i = oldSI(...); intervals.push(i); return i; } etc) so you can tell what to explicitly clear
  320. # [13:53] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#utf-16-encoder
  321. # [13:53] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: its curretly refreshing the iframe on the right
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  324. # [13:54] <annevk> I guess I should also define "decode utf-8" for the utf-8 only formats
  325. # [13:55] <annevk> (besides decoding as utf-8 it also skips a BOM if there is one)
  326. # [13:55] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: the setinterval keeps running even after the iframe refreshes
  327. # [13:56] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: what is that setinterval wrapper ? could explain a bit ?
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  329. # [13:56] <annevk> "utf-8 decode" works better
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  331. # [14:00] <annevk> is it code point-based formats
  332. # [14:00] <annevk> or code-point-based
  333. # [14:00] <annevk> or code point based
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  335. # [14:01] <Philip`> ruby_on_tails: The timers seem to stop in e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cscript%3EsetInterval%28function%28%29{alert%281%29}%2C%204000%29%3C%2Fscript%3E whenever I change the code (e.g. change "1" to "2", and it no longer alerts 1)
  336. # [14:01] <annevk> nm for now
  337. # [14:01] <Philip`> annevk: code[hypen]point[en dash]based, I think
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  339. # [14:02] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: am not sure if i get it
  340. # [14:03] <Philip`> s/hypen/hyphen/
  341. # [14:03] <Philip`> (Also I don't know if that's a real convention or if I'm just imagining it)
  342. # [14:04] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#utf-8-decode
  343. # [14:09] <Philip`> annevk: What if the stream is shorter than three bytes?
  344. # [14:10] <annevk> then there's no match?
  345. # [14:10] <annevk> you think that should be more explicit?
  346. # [14:11] <annevk> is it also unclear in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#decode ?
  347. # [14:11] <annevk> because I've been wondering about whether or not it was
  348. # [14:11] <Philip`> "the first three bytes" seems like an undefined concept in that case
  349. # [14:11] <Philip`> The expected behaviour is obvious, so I guess it depends on how pedantically correct you want to be
  350. # [14:12] <ruby_on_tails> Philip`: sorry you are watching the wrong link, this is the one which gets very slow http://thecodeplayer.com/walkthrough/ps6
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  352. # [14:13] <Philip`> In #decode: "the offset given the in the cell in the" - too many "the"s
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  355. # [14:15] <Philip`> "if the first bytes of stream match all the bytes given" sounds alright to me, since the meaning is clear and it's not being invalidly specific about how many bytes to examine from stream
  356. # [14:16] <annevk> made some clarification, thanks
  357. # [14:18] <Philip`> "Let byte2 be code point bitwise OR 0x00FF." - shouldn't that be AND?
  358. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan, annevk - fyi http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-html5-diff-20120315/ is alive
  359. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> symlink won't be updated til Thursday
  360. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ I mean
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  362. # [14:21] <annevk> Philip`: yes
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  367. # [14:26] <annevk> also fixed btw
  368. # [14:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: cool
  369. # [14:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: any chance we can finally claim http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ this update?
  370. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> ah
  371. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> I'll talk with plh about it
  372. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> certainly would make sense
  373. # [14:29] <annevk> thanks
  374. # [14:33] <annevk> HTML callback bug is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15358 btw
  375. # [14:33] <annevk> filed it myself
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  380. # [14:55] <annevk> I cleaned up some HTML bugs
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  383. # [14:57] <annevk> why does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/RequestAnimationFrame/Overview.html not use partial Window?
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  386. # [15:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: nice
  387. # [15:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what about changes to html that happen between that and whatever ends up on w3.org/TR/html5 (like Path, and if stuff get reverted)
  388. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: that?
  389. # [15:06] * Quits: Bass10 (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  390. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> you mean http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ ?
  391. # [15:09] <zcorpan> that being http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-html5-diff-20120315/
  392. # [15:09] * Quits: danielfilho (~daniel@187.31.77.7) (Quit: </html>)
  393. # [15:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: e.g. if http+aes gets reverted, it should be moved in the changelog in html5-diff
  394. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> hmm
  395. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> yeah
  396. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> I guess will quietly push any updates to the TR version if needed
  397. # [15:11] <zcorpan> currently the Path addition is missing
  398. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> if you make the change I will push it to TR
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  400. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hmm I see that pubrules apparently requires a link to a mailing list
  401. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> it doesn't matter what it says
  402. # [15:20] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html.diff?r1=1.181;r2=1.182 (need to rebuild Overview.html or monkeypatch)
  403. # [15:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok, i'll make it say to *not* use the mailing list :-)
  404. # [15:20] * Joins: malydok (~marek@moma.t16.ds.pwr.wroc.pl)
  405. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> e.g., it could say, "There's a _public-html-comments mailing list_ but the appropriate forum for comments is s W3C Bugzilla
  406. # [15:20] <annevk> I can do make at some point
  407. # [15:20] <annevk> just tell me when you're done editing and I'll generate a new WD
  408. # [15:21] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  409. # [15:21] <annevk> takes less than a minute
  410. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it wants both a mailto: link for the list address as well as a link to the archives
  411. # [15:22] <zcorpan> (<a href="mailto:public-html-comments@w3.org">public-html-comments@w3.org</a>,
  412. # [15:22] <zcorpan> a mailing list with a
  413. # [15:22] <zcorpan> <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/" title="Archive for HTML comments mailing-list">public
  414. # [15:22] <zcorpan> archive</a>, is no longer used for tracking comments.)
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  416. # [15:22] <zcorpan> sounds good?
  417. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> yah
  418. # [15:23] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html.diff?r1=1.182;r2=1.183
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  421. # [15:36] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1382 i don't understand what opera and gecko are doing here
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  424. # [15:36] <zcorpan> chrome makes more sense
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  429. # [15:54] <wirepair> what... exactly is the point of the http+aes scheme? http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/iana.html#http-aes-scheme
  430. # [15:55] <wirepair> i've read it a few times and i just can't seem to wrap my head around *why* you'd want to put encryption keys in a url.
  431. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: please go ahead and re-make the diffs doc
  432. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> and check in the updated Overview.html
  433. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> if we have more changes later we can just do it again as needed
  434. # [15:57] <annevk> done
  435. # [15:59] <zcorpan> oh, so opera and gecko just apply the "can't break around images" for the purpose of calculating the minimum width, but after that they are fine with breaking around images
  436. # [16:01] <zcorpan> and ie in compat view matches opera/gecko
  437. # [16:01] <zcorpan> ie non-compat quirks doesn't have this quirk
  438. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
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  444. # [16:13] <zcorpan> ah, excellent, the Automatic table layout algo in css21 is non-normative
  445. # [16:13] <zcorpan> i recall someone from mozilla having written a spec for table layout, but can't find it right now
  446. # [16:13] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  447. # [16:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: Go speak to dbaron
  448. # [16:14] <jgraham> He will explain table layout to you from memory
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  450. # [16:15] * zcorpan finds http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/
  451. # [16:17] <zcorpan> http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/#inline-intrinsic-min
  452. # [16:17] <zcorpan> excellent, what i want is a TODO :-)
  453. # [16:19] <smaug____> so, the spec should refer to dbaron's brains?
  454. # [16:19] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  455. # [16:20] <jgraham> Well ideally dbaron should serialize the content of his brain to some more durable format
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  458. # [16:21] <smaug____> but hey, it would be just a living standard
  459. # [16:23] <jgraham> The problem with living standards is that it's hard to clone their host body and init the clone's brain with the original data. We need the serialization for that.
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  468. # [16:38] <annevk> haha
  469. # [16:38] <annevk> taking living standard to a whole new level
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  508. # [18:21] <Hixie> Philip`, or anyone else: any opinions on ellipse apis before i spec this proposal? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas#Ellipses
  509. # [18:21] <Hixie> i'm not 100% happy with making it take x and y radii arguments because that means you have to do a rotation to get a rotated ellipse
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  512. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> You could have it take two foci instead of a center and radius.
  513. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> That's still just one extra argument over a circle.
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  515. # [18:23] <Hixie> so basically have ellipseArc and ellipseArcTo rather than arc and arcTo?
  516. # [18:24] <Hixie> rather than just overloading them i mean
  517. # [18:24] * AryehGregor isn't familiar enough with canvas to say what API makes the most sense
  518. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> Overloading on the number of arguments of a method that already takes five or six numeric arguments seems kind of confusing, though.
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  521. # [18:27] <Hixie> (if i take foci don't i still need a semi-major axis distance?)
  522. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  523. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I think you need one more parameter in that case, you're right. You can have two different ellipses with the same foci.
  524. # [18:29] <Hixie> only two?
  525. # [18:30] <Hixie> surely i can have an infinite number
  526. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Well, yes, of course.
  527. # [18:30] <Hixie> since two foci doesn't give you any data on the semi-minor axis
  528. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> I just meant that given two foci, there exist two distinct ellipses with those foci.
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  530. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> There are actually more than two, but two is enough to make my suggestion bad.
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  532. # [18:32] <Hixie> i tried looking at the CG reference to see how they do it
  533. # [18:32] <Hixie> but of course that's the api that canvas was copied from
  534. # [18:33] <Hixie> so they don't
  535. # [18:33] <Hixie> same as us -_-
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  537. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> "I'm at capacity (arguably over capacity) already."
  538. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> Arguably?
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  542. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: who said that?
  543. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> Hixie
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  560. # [19:05] * Ms2ger wonders how to get dragonfly to open
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  569. # [19:15] <jgraham> Ms2ger: At what stage are you having a problem?
  570. # [19:15] <Ms2ger> Figured it out, the menu item was hidden three levels deep
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  572. # [19:16] <jgraham> That's the problem I have too
  573. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, are you using the live dom viewer, and do you mind if I overwrite the test? :)
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  575. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, you can always overwrite the stuff I upload to Live DOM Viewer.
  576. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> Of course, I might overwrite what you upload too. :)
  577. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> If only I managed to :)
  578. # [19:19] * Ms2ger curses IE's XSS protection
  579. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> They're wrong anyway, so *shrug*
  580. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> That's part of why upload/download is so much more useful.
  581. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> All to yourself again :)
  582. # [19:19] <Hixie> looks like a lot of other apis do only x/y-aligned ellipses too
  583. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> Am I alone in finding Win8 hard to shut down?
  584. # [19:21] * AryehGregor just powers off the VM instead of sending a shutdown signal
  585. # [19:21] <Philip`> Shutting down is an obsolete concept
  586. # [19:27] <jgraham> Ms2ger: According to the interweb, everyone finds it hard to shut down
  587. # [19:27] <Ms2ger> Good
  588. # [19:27] <jgraham> Or at least enough people that there are supposedly youtube video tutorials on it
  589. # [19:27] * Ms2ger is in favour of Microsoft shipping crap
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  604. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, what's the rationale for this? It causes any quotes in test names or results to be backslash-escaped. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/resources/rev/b2e673a7d8c7
  605. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> XML :/
  606. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> And the fact that it uses innerHTML
  607. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> More specifically?
  608. # [20:02] * Ms2ger tries to remember the test
  609. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> If the problem is bad characters sneaking into test names, escape_html could entity-escape them.
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  611. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> format_value (and the part you copied into format_string) escapes in JS fashion, with backslashes, and in particular escapes innocuous stuff like quotes.
  612. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> I now have stuff like: Fail getComputedStyle(div).transformOrigin with \"transform: rotate(43deg); transform-origin: left 10px bottom -10px\", set via setAttribute() assert_approx_equals: Value of X part (actual: \"40px 15px\", expected: \"50px 25px\") expected 50 +/- 0.05 but got 40
  613. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> Yeah :/
  614. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Document-createProcessingInstruction.xhtml was the one, I think
  615. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> That test should call format_value() itself on valid[i][0], valid[i][1], etc.
  616. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> That will add quotes and nice things like that too.
  617. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> You don't want to call it on the whole test name.
  618. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> OK
  619. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> Can I revert your testharness changes?
  620. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Sure thing
  621. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> Okay, thanks.
  622. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Well
  623. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Hmm, I guess
  624. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Yes, go ahead
  625. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  626. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> Is there a convenient hg equivalent to git revert -n?
  627. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> hg backout?
  628. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> That creates a commit.
  629. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> Well, yes
  630. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> git revert -n doesn't create a commit.
  631. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> What does it do then?
  632. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> It just applies the diff.
  633. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> I wound up doing hg diff -r 6 -r 4 | patch.
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  635. # [20:15] <AryehGregor> Which conflicted because some context didn't match, but close enough.
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  642. # [20:20] <rniwa> AryehGregor: hi AryehGregor
  643. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> rniwa, hi!
  644. # [20:20] <rniwa> AryehGregor: did you see my email about nested transactions in undo manger?
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  646. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> rniwa, yes.
  647. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> execCommand() should never be called recursively anyway now, because that will fire extra events.
  648. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> There were a few places where my spec said to do that, and I'm in the middle of fixing them.
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  667. # [20:42] <StoneCypher> is it possible to control <td> border miters?
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  679. # [21:02] <Hixie> heycam|away: can webidl distingush (five doubles and a boolean) from (six doubles), when it comes to overloading method ?
  680. # [21:02] <Hixie> methods, even
  681. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> Doesn't look like it
  682. # [21:04] <Hixie> crap
  683. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Why not?
  684. # [21:04] <Hixie> that's unfortunate
  685. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Also: why in heaven's name would you want such a confusing overload?
  686. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Wouldn't a separate method be a lot clearer?
  687. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> Because we can!
  688. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> Well, we can't
  689. # [21:05] <Hixie> it'd be pretty clear, in this case, in practice
  690. # [21:05] <Hixie> but anyway. lunch.
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  695. # [21:27] <rniwa> AryehGregor: ah, ok. great.
  696. # [21:27] <rniwa> AryehGregor: so just prohibit the nested transaction as wel?
  697. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> rniwa, I guess.
  698. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> I'm not familiar enough with UndoManager to understand the implications, TBH.
  699. # [21:35] <rniwa> sicking: ping
  700. # [21:35] <rniwa> AryehGregor: so the implication is simple
  701. # [21:35] <rniwa> AryehGregor: nobody is allowed to add new transaction while someone else's running a transaction
  702. # [21:35] <rniwa> AryehGregor: it might get a little tricky when there are cross-origin iframes
  703. # [21:36] <rniwa> AryehGregor: because the you sort of leak the information that a transaction is in progress
  704. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Right, but I don't remember the use-cases etc. well enough to know what effect that would have in practice.
  705. # [21:36] <rniwa> but I don't think that's a big of deal
  706. # [21:36] <rniwa> ehsan: yt?
  707. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Do cross-origin iframes share the same undo manager as their host page? That seems a little surprising.
  708. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> There's already information leak there, then, right?
  709. # [21:36] <rniwa> AryehGregor: no
  710. # [21:36] <ehsan> rniwa: yeah
  711. # [21:36] <rniwa> AryehGregor: there should be undo manager per document
  712. # [21:36] <rniwa> AryehGregor: but that's also tricky for webkit & ie
  713. # [21:37] <rniwa> AryehGregor: because undo stack shared across the entire page at the moment
  714. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Then you're already leaking information. E.g., you can take some action in the outer page, wait a while, and see if execCommand("undo") reverses it. If it doesn't, the user must have taken some action in the iframe that got reversed.
  715. # [21:38] <rniwa> AryehGregor: right.
  716. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Actually, that means the outer page can use undo/redo to modify the DOM of the inner page. That seems like it might be "interesting" from a security perspective.
  717. # [21:38] <rniwa> AryehGregor: while i'm not going to talk about specifics, there's a bug about it.
  718. # [21:38] <rniwa> AryehGregor: it's extremely tricky
  719. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> What's this "unrestricted float" thing in WebIDL?
  720. # [21:38] <rniwa> to say the least
  721. # [21:39] <rniwa> ehsan: do you think prohibiting nested transaction is the way to go?
  722. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16075
  723. # [21:39] <ehsan> rniwa: I still have not caught up with the thread
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  725. # [21:39] <rniwa> ehsan: ok
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  727. # [21:40] <rniwa> ehsan, AryehGregor: I just want to make sure the API behaves sane
  728. # [21:40] <ehsan> rniwa: I'll look at the thread later today
  729. # [21:40] <rniwa> ehsan, AryehGregor: on somewhat related note, DOMTransaction interface needs to be a callback interface
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  732. # [21:40] <rniwa> and there are a quite few interesting stuff going on with respect to GC
  733. # [21:40] <rniwa> because they need to be kept alive until undo/redo are done
  734. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, is there a bug on HTML to use it?
  735. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, not AFAIK.
  736. # [21:41] <rniwa> ehsan, AryehGregor: however, they might be pruned earlier if undoManager gets destroyed...
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  746. # [22:04] <smaug____> rniwa: just curious, does the undomanager thingie define how much needs to be kept in undo/redo stacks ?
  747. # [22:04] <rniwa> smaug____: it does not.
  748. # [22:05] <smaug____> undo can use quite some memory
  749. # [22:05] <rniwa> smaug____: right.
  750. # [22:05] <rniwa> smaug____: so we should probably add some limit to it
  751. # [22:05] <smaug____> yeah
  752. # [22:05] <rniwa> smaug____: but then... should we modify the page of undo stack pruning?
  753. # [22:05] <rniwa> notify*
  754. # [22:05] <smaug____> I think gecko has some limit
  755. # [22:05] <smaug____> ehsan might remember what that is
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  757. # [22:07] <ehsan> smaug____: I don't think we impose a limit in fact
  758. # [22:07] <smaug____> there is max transaction count
  759. # [22:08] <ehsan> smaug____: well we set it to -1, which means don't care
  760. # [22:08] <smaug____> bah :)
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  763. # [22:08] <ehsan> smaug____: I don't see the point in imposing a limit...
  764. # [22:09] <ehsan> web pages can already do stupid stuff if they wanna burn memory
  765. # [22:09] <smaug____> and do
  766. # [22:09] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-149-19.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  767. # [22:09] <rniwa> ehsan: I think chromium has a limit
  768. # [22:09] <smaug____> like irccloud
  769. # [22:09] <ehsan> and we don't need operations which are in an order of the length of the stack
  770. # [22:09] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  771. # [22:09] <ehsan> rniwa: then I would suggest that they should lift it ;)
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  773. # [22:09] <ehsan> smaug____: or, (sigh), gmail
  774. # [22:09] <Yuhong> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1137740632&count=1
  775. # [22:10] <smaug____> ehsan: oh, even that
  776. # [22:10] <Yuhong> "The HTML5 spec says that if you use another DOCTYPE, UAs can switch to quirks mode, in which case all bets are off. I'm not even going to try to specify quirks mode parsing. Hopefully, by making the DOCTYPE short and memorable, it will encourage authors to use it more."
  777. # [22:10] <smaug____> and sure, google reader too
  778. # [22:10] <Yuhong> From Hixie.
  779. # [22:10] <ehsan> jee, those like buttons?
  780. # [22:10] <smaug____> google web devs clearly don't have the right tools the find leaks
  781. # [22:10] <ehsan> don't get me started ;)
  782. # [22:10] <smaug____> "leaks"
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  784. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> Oh hey, karl heard about me
  785. # [22:11] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.88.25)
  786. # [22:11] <Yuhong> Two years before X-UA-Compatible was created.
  787. # [22:11] <smaug____> s/the/to/
  788. # [22:11] <rniwa> smaug____, ehsan: i think webkit currently keeps undo stack for a page as long as the page is there
  789. # [22:11] <rniwa> so we need to change that before lifting the limit
  790. # [22:12] <rniwa> e.g. prune entries in the undo stack for a frame when the frame is destroyed, etc...
  791. # [22:12] <ehsan> rniwa: when you say frame, what do you mean? iframes? or rendering objects?
  792. # [22:12] <rniwa> ehsan: i mean DOM frames
  793. # [22:13] <smaug____> undo should be per document
  794. # [22:13] <rniwa> smaug____: it is not for webkit and msie
  795. # [22:13] <smaug____> but it should be :)
  796. # [22:13] <rniwa> smaug____: well, maybe.
  797. # [22:13] <ehsan> rniwa: I think smaug____ is right here, I don't know why they should have anything to do with frames
  798. # [22:14] <rniwa> smaug____: but gecko/opera also uses different undo stack for each text form controls
  799. # [22:14] <smaug____> undomanager is something new anyway, so better to make a good API
  800. # [22:14] <rniwa> whereas webkit and msie don't
  801. # [22:14] <ehsan> rniwa: that's sort of a by-product of gecko's editor
  802. # [22:14] <ehsan> no good reason ;)
  803. # [22:14] <rniwa> smaug____: well but it change the user-initiated undo behavior
  804. # [22:14] <smaug____> rniwa: sure. I actually think there should be several undomanagers
  805. # [22:14] <ehsan> although that seems intuitive to me as a user...
  806. # [22:15] <ehsan> (that = treating each text control as a separate undo host)
  807. # [22:15] <smaug____> yeah
  808. # [22:15] <rniwa> don't think we want to change the behavior here though
  809. # [22:16] * smaug____ doesn't know what behavior chrome has
  810. # [22:16] <ehsan> which behavior?
  811. # [22:16] <rniwa> that text form controls share the same undo manager
  812. # [22:16] <rniwa> smaug____: chrome=webkit here
  813. # [22:16] <rniwa> ehsan: also, we don't provide any mechanisms to merge undo managers
  814. # [22:17] <rniwa> so this would mean that websites can never have a page that shares the same undo managers amongst text from controls
  815. # [22:17] <rniwa> which might be desirable in spreadsheet apps
  816. # [22:17] <ehsan> rniwa: so in webkit, if you have two text fields, type foo in one of them and go to the other and do cmd+z, foo gets deleted from the first box?
  817. # [22:17] <rniwa> ehsan: right.
  818. # [22:17] <ehsan> rniwa: wow
  819. # [22:17] <smaug____> ugh
  820. # [22:17] <smaug____> sounds bizarre
  821. # [22:17] <ehsan> that sounds broken
  822. # [22:17] * ehsan tries it to see for himself
  823. # [22:17] <rniwa> ehsan: but it's useful when you're filling up forms
  824. # [22:17] <rniwa> ehsan: and want to do undo a bunch
  825. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, yt?
  826. # [22:18] <smaug____> rniwa: so you need to remember which field you have filled in which order...
  827. # [22:18] <smaug____> before undoing
  828. # [22:18] <smaug____> strange
  829. # [22:19] <rniwa> smaug____: i mean, people normally fills in forms from top-down
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  831. # [22:19] <rniwa> smaug____: anyway i'm not about to argue about why we do this
  832. # [22:19] <smaug____> web apps could just move focus to previous field or something like that if field is emptied using undo
  833. # [22:19] <smaug____> rniwa: is that some ancient behavior in webkit?
  834. # [22:19] <rniwa> smaug____: right.
  835. # [22:19] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah
  836. # [22:19] <ehsan> this seems very bizzare to me...
  837. # [22:20] <rniwa> smaug____, ehsan: anyway, i don't think we can change this behavior
  838. # [22:20] <ehsan> although, it is a UX question
  839. # [22:20] <rniwa> because of legacy apps that depend on this particular behavior
  840. # [22:20] <smaug____> ( yeah, sounds like breaking all sorts of basic UX rules )
  841. # [22:20] <rniwa> right, it's a UX issue
  842. # [22:20] <ehsan> it might be sane in the case of forms, but we can't assume that all two text fields in the same page belong to the same form!
  843. # [22:20] <rniwa> we try to follow the platform convention whenever possible
  844. # [22:20] <rniwa> ehsan: right, that's why we want undoScope :)
  845. # [22:20] <ehsan> rniwa: well, here, platform convention is basically webkit's behavior :(
  846. # [22:20] <ehsan> so that's a logical loop ;)
  847. # [22:24] <rniwa> ehsan: as i said, IE does this too
  848. # [22:24] <ehsan> well yeah
  849. # [22:24] <ehsan> but we should see if this happens with the windows text control for example
  850. # [22:25] <ehsan> since that would be the real platform convention
  851. # [22:26] <rniwa> ehsan: yeah, but i can't find an app that have multiple form controls in a document
  852. # [22:26] <rniwa> most of examples i can find are modal dialogs
  853. # [22:26] <rniwa> and they, of course, behave differently
  854. # [22:27] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.250.56) (Quit: nn)
  855. # [22:27] <ehsan> rniwa: I have one here in fact, gimme a sec
  856. # [22:27] * ehsan waits for his windows box to boot up
  857. # [22:30] <ehsan> rniwa: ok, on native windows, each text field has its own undo stack
  858. # [22:30] <rniwa> ehsan: yeah, because they're separate windows
  859. # [22:30] <ehsan> correct
  860. # [22:30] <ehsan> (several OS level windows, that is)_
  861. # [22:30] <rniwa> ehsan: right.
  862. # [22:31] <rniwa> but i can't think of any windows app that has forms in the same page/document
  863. # [22:31] <rniwa> i can't think of such an ui
  864. # [22:31] <rniwa> anywhere
  865. # [22:31] <ehsan> so webkit doesn't adhere to platform conventions on windows ;)
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  867. # [22:31] <rniwa> ehsan: it adheres to the platform in the sense that msie is the only windows app that have such an UI
  868. # [22:31] <rniwa> ehsan: and we match msie
  869. # [22:31] <ehsan> rniwa: thing like office automation apps have lots of such forms
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  871. # [22:32] <rniwa> ehsan: that's an interesting point
  872. # [22:32] <rniwa> ehsan: what do they do?
  873. # [22:32] <ehsan> separate undo stacks
  874. # [22:32] <rniwa> ok
  875. # [22:32] <ehsan> honestly, I've never noticed an app do something differently
  876. # [22:32] <rniwa> odd
  877. # [22:32] <ehsan> I don't use IE and webkit that much personally
  878. # [22:32] <rniwa> ehsan: we'll have to ask microsoft why do they do that way on msie
  879. # [22:32] <ehsan> but my eyeballs nearly popped out when I saw this today ;)
  880. # [22:33] <smaug____> rniwa: I could imagine the IE behavior could be some ancient thingie
  881. # [22:33] <smaug____> from IE3 or such
  882. # [22:33] <rniwa> smaug____: posible.
  883. # [22:34] <smaug____> and behavior in web browsers at that time didn't need to have any reasoning :)
  884. # [22:34] <ehsan> rniwa: take this as an example: http://www.bing.com/search?q=test&go=&qs=n&form=QBLH&filt=all&pq=test&sc=8-4&sp=-1&;sk=
  885. # [22:34] <ehsan> rniwa: edit something in the first text box
  886. # [22:34] <ehsan> then scroll down
  887. # [22:35] <ehsan> focus the other text box at the end of the page
  888. # [22:35] <ehsan> and do Cmd+X
  889. # [22:35] <ehsan> *Z
  890. # [22:35] <ehsan> no observable behavior
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  892. # [22:35] <ehsan> and the edit in the first box suddenly gets unddone
  893. # [22:35] <ehsan> how can that be the desired UX? ;)
  894. # [22:35] <rniwa> ehsan: as I said, I'm not going to make a UX argument here
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  896. # [22:35] <ehsan> :)
  897. # [22:36] <rniwa> ehsan: all I know is that that's the behavior we chose to implement
  898. # [22:36] <ehsan> yeah ok fair enough
  899. # [22:36] <rniwa> and there might be some backward compatibility issues if we were to change it
  900. # [22:36] <ehsan> well implementations already have different behaviors here
  901. # [22:36] <ehsan> so I would decide that we should determine what the *correct* thing to do is
  902. # [22:37] <ehsan> and then adopt that
  903. # [22:37] <ehsan> and it _is_ a UX question
  904. # [22:37] <ehsan> so don't take my argument as a UX decision :)
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  906. # [22:38] <rniwa> ehsan: yeah.
  907. # [22:38] <rniwa> ehsan: we'll need to ask MS & Apple first though
  908. # [22:38] <rniwa> i don't even know if they can change the behavior
  909. # [22:38] <ehsan> sadface
  910. # [22:38] <rniwa> if they have compat. issues, etc... then we can't converge it anyway
  911. # [22:38] <ehsan> yeah
  912. # [22:39] <rniwa> we should probably bring it up on public-webapps or so
  913. # [22:39] <rniwa> or directly email our friendly ms/apple folks :)
  914. # [22:39] <ehsan> fwiw, I would be fine with changing gecko if someone has a compelling argument for the alternate behavior
  915. # [22:39] <ehsan> yep
  916. # [22:39] <rniwa> ehsan: you guys are lucky in that gecko isn't a part of some OS framework :)
  917. # [22:40] <rniwa> trident & webkit suffer a lot from their being part of OS frameworks :(
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  919. # [22:40] <ehsan> rniwa: it will be soon! ;)
  920. # [22:40] <smaug____> walled garden behavior doesn't apply here ;)
  921. # [22:40] <ehsan> rniwa: but I don't see why that is a concern
  922. # [22:40] <jdaggett> jprmc, joe: mtg?
  923. # [22:40] <smaug____> this is about web API
  924. # [22:40] <ehsan> webkit can detect whether it's embedded in some apple OS thingy or not
  925. # [22:40] <ehsan> and can have different behaviors
  926. # [22:41] <rniwa> ehsan: i don't wanna do that.... there are a lot of dependencies internally in our codebase
  927. # [22:41] <ehsan> for example, gecko already does some things different for mail editing and regular web editing
  928. # [22:41] <rniwa> ehsan: and supporting two behaviors is just a nightmare
  929. # [22:41] <smaug____> that is implementation issue
  930. # [22:41] <smaug____> web api should be good
  931. # [22:41] <smaug____> and behavior in the web
  932. # [22:42] <rniwa> i tend to agree but there are practicality issue
  933. # [22:42] <ehsan> rniwa: I sympathize, but what I'm trying to say is that OS backwards compat is not a good argument
  934. # [22:42] <rniwa> s
  935. # [22:42] <ehsan> rniwa: web compat is, however
  936. # [22:42] <rniwa> well sure. but if nobody has a time to implement it, then our behavior won't change
  937. # [22:42] <ehsan> but I don't think this can affect web compat in any serious way
  938. # [22:42] <rniwa> i mean we can say that we can change the behavior
  939. # [22:42] <ehsan> yeah
  940. # [22:42] <rniwa> but if nobody will work on it, then it won't happen :(
  941. # [22:42] <ehsan> but that's a different issue :)
  942. # [22:42] <ehsan> I think we should spec the right thing
  943. # [22:43] <ehsan> and don't let arcane OS level requirements hold us down
  944. # [22:43] <ehsan> whether an engine implements a spec completely and when is a different issue
  945. # [22:43] <rniwa> anyway, this whole argument won't move forward unless we can get apple/msft people to be involved
  946. # [22:43] <ehsan> yeah, that we agree on :)
  947. # [22:43] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@ad008216.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Client Quit)
  948. # [22:43] <smaug____> yeah, we should always spec the "right" thing, unless it breaks the web badly
  949. # [22:44] <rniwa> ehsan, smaug____: quite frankly, i'm not even sure if we need to spec this
  950. # [22:44] <rniwa> it's an UI issue so it could be left to implementors
  951. # [22:44] <rniwa> we tend not to spec UI issues in web standards as far as I know
  952. # [22:44] <ehsan> rniwa: wouldn't it affect the default undoScope though?
  953. # [22:44] <rniwa> ehsan: not really.
  954. # [22:45] <rniwa> ehsan: it sort of does if user editing stuff inside input/textarea
  955. # [22:45] <rniwa> ehsan: but in that sense, gecko/opera's behavior is more problmatic
  956. # [22:45] <ehsan> how so?
  957. # [22:45] <rniwa> ehsan: because setting values to input/textarea would being to the undo manager of the document
  958. # [22:46] <rniwa> whereas editing text inside input/textarea belong to the magic undo manager gecko/opera have for text form contorls
  959. # [22:46] <ehsan> well that depends on how it is specced
  960. # [22:46] <rniwa> so unless we somehow bound input/textarea's value to that magic undo manager
  961. # [22:46] <ehsan> setting the value can also change the undo manager for the text box
  962. # [22:46] <ehsan> if there is one
  963. # [22:46] <rniwa> possible.
  964. # [22:46] <rniwa> but then you'll be exposing the internal undo manager...
  965. # [22:46] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  966. # [22:46] <ehsan> rniwa: please note that gecko doesn't really have a magic undo manager, it just creates one per input/textarea
  967. # [22:47] <ehsan> and one for the whole page if it has a contenteditable element
  968. # [22:47] <rniwa> ehsan: right. i'm just calling it "magic" because it's invisible to scirpts
  969. # [22:47] <ehsan> ok yeah
  970. # [22:47] <rniwa> but maybe "invisible" is a better term
  971. # [22:47] <ehsan> yep
  972. # [22:47] <smaug____> rniwa: I assume input/textarea will have a separate undomanager in the spec
  973. # [22:47] <rniwa> smaug____: it doesn't
  974. # [22:47] <ehsan> oh
  975. # [22:47] <ehsan> well
  976. # [22:47] <rniwa> smaug____: nowhere in my spec does it say that
  977. # [22:47] <ehsan> so this _is_ a spec issue, and not merely a UI issue
  978. # [22:47] <smaug____> rniwa: or that the spec describes what an undomanager is, and HTML spec defines that input/textarea has such
  979. # [22:48] <rniwa> smaug____: maybe.
  980. # [22:48] <rniwa> ehsan: sort of.
  981. # [22:48] <ehsan> yeah that makes sense to me
  982. # [22:48] <smaug____> also, should each contenteditable areas have own undomanager
  983. # [22:48] <smaug____> I think so
  984. # [22:48] <rniwa> ehsan: as it stands, value is tied to document's undo manager
  985. # [22:48] <rniwa> ehsan, smaug____: a bigger problem is with execCommand('undo')
  986. # [22:49] <smaug____> so, that is designMode document then
  987. # [22:49] <rniwa> ehsan, smaug____: that currently undoes actions inside textarea/input at least on webkit
  988. # [22:49] <rniwa> don't know what gecko/msie do
  989. # [22:49] <rniwa> smaug____: no
  990. # [22:49] <rniwa> smaug____: contenteditable and undo scope are separate
  991. # [22:50] <rniwa> smaug____: otherwise, you can't have multiple content editable regions that share the same undo manager
  992. # [22:50] <rniwa> smaug____: which is desirable for spreadsheet apps and others
  993. # [22:50] <ehsan> rniwa: I think gecko applies that command to the contenteditable stuff on the page and not the text box
  994. # [22:50] <ehsan> (not tested)
  995. # [22:50] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  996. # [22:50] <smaug____> ah, that is possible
  997. # [22:51] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@ANancy-256-1-49-6.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  998. # [22:52] <rniwa> ehsan: yeah gecko doesn't undo stuff inside text fields
  999. # [22:52] <ehsan> at least that is what the code intends to happen ;)
  1000. # [22:52] * rniwa tests msier
  1001. # [22:53] <rniwa> msie*
  1002. # [22:53] <smaug____> (and connection to dns server died ( )
  1003. # [22:53] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-21-55-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 13.0a1/20120312120456])
  1004. # [22:54] <rniwa> ehsan: msie does undo in text fields
  1005. # [22:54] <ehsan> :/
  1006. # [22:55] <ehsan> this stuff is a mess in general
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  1008. # [22:55] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYYKCCLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1009. # [22:55] <rniwa> ehsan: yup
  1010. # [22:56] <rniwa> ehsan: maybe we should standardize it :(
  1011. # [22:56] <rniwa> AryehGregor: what do you think, Aryeh?
  1012. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> About which?
  1013. # [22:56] * ehsan dies a little bit inside
  1014. # [22:56] <rniwa> AryehGregor: standariziging undo behavior
  1015. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> I'm in favor, of course!
  1016. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> Easy to say. :)
  1017. # [22:56] <rniwa> AryehGregor: right now, msie/webkit undo things inside text fields by execCommand('undo')
  1018. # [22:57] <rniwa> AryehGregor: but gecko (and presumably) and opera don't
  1019. # [22:57] <rniwa> AryehGregor, ehsan: but this behavior might be dependent by some legacy contents though
  1020. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> execCommand("undo") should behave exactly the same as hitting Ctrl-Z, IMO.
  1021. # [22:57] <rniwa> i mean being able to undo things in text fields seems like a useful API
  1022. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> To the extent feasible.
  1023. # [22:57] <rniwa> AryehGregor: that's what all browsers do
  1024. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Well, Gecko likes to throw if there's no editable content on the page.
  1025. # [22:57] <rniwa> AryehGregor: and the behavior is different between msie/webkit and gecko/opera
  1026. # [22:58] <rniwa> AryehGregor: because msie/webkit share the same undo manager across the entire page whereas gecko/opera have separate undo managers for each form text control
  1027. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  1028. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> Fun.
  1029. # [22:59] <smaug____> execCommand('undo') could use the most recently used undomanager in the page
  1030. # [22:59] * smaug____ lost some context...looking at logs
  1031. # [23:00] * ericc|afk is now known as ericc
  1032. # [23:00] <rniwa> smaug____: but the problem is that "the most recently used undomanager" is different depending on the browser :)
  1033. # [23:00] * ericc is now known as eric_carlson
  1034. # [23:01] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yeah....
  1035. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> What does Ctrl-Z do? Probably it picks the undo manager based on what's focused, right?
  1036. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> Why can't execCommand() do that?
  1037. # [23:01] <smaug____> rniwa: well, you need to just fix IE and webkit ;)
  1038. # [23:01] <rniwa> AryehGregor: no
  1039. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> :/
  1040. # [23:01] <rniwa> AryehGregor: it undoes the last editing action on the page
  1041. # [23:02] <rniwa> smaug____: the question is whether we can change our behavior or not.
  1042. # [23:02] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.13.244.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  1043. # [23:02] <rniwa> smaug____: also there might be a good reason MSIE/WebKit do it this way
  1044. # [23:02] <rniwa> i just don't know the history enough to give you any meaningful answer
  1045. # [23:03] <smaug____> rniwa: I haven't seen any gecko bug reports about its behavior
  1046. # [23:03] <rniwa> smaug____: intuitively, either behavior is fine.
  1047. # [23:03] <rniwa> user would just get used to it :)
  1048. # [23:03] <smaug____> and also, IE/webkit behavior just feels odd. But sure, if there is plenty of web content which relies on it ...
  1049. # [23:03] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.13.244.getinternet.no)
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  1051. # [23:04] <rniwa> smaug____, AryehGregor: my gut tells me there are quite few IE-specific contents that rely on this behavior
  1052. # [23:04] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.212.155.203)
  1053. # [23:04] <rniwa> anyway, it seems like the right strategy is to bring it up on public-webapps
  1054. # [23:04] <smaug____> yeah
  1055. # [23:08] <rniwa> smaug____, AryehGregor, ehsan: anyway, i've got to tell you that implementing undo manager spec turned out to be much harder than I had imagined :(
  1056. # [23:08] <rniwa> as i said there are very interesting GC implications
  1057. # [23:09] <smaug____> rniwa: what kinds of GC implications ?
  1058. # [23:09] <rniwa> and there are lots of edge cases, including the nested transactions, that we hadn't thought through well
  1059. # [23:09] <rniwa> smaug____: basically, it needs to be treated like event handlers
  1060. # [23:09] <rniwa> smaug____: because dom transaction objects can outlive script context :(
  1061. # [23:10] <smaug____> (I guess I should review the draft, and r- if it has only one undomanager per document. )
  1062. # [23:10] <rniwa> smaug____: it'll add undo manager on all elements that have undoScope content attribute :)
  1063. # [23:10] <rniwa> smaug____: or when undoScope DOM attribute is set true
  1064. # [23:10] <smaug____> rniwa: I'm not sure event listener behavior is spec'ed that clearly
  1065. # [23:11] <smaug____> in case the script context dies
  1066. # [23:11] <smaug____> in any case, I don't actually know how webkit does all the GCing
  1067. # [23:12] <rniwa> smaug____: that's why "interesting" :(
  1068. # [23:12] <smaug____> in Gecko undomanager would be just cycle collectable object, holding possibly some JS objects
  1069. # [23:13] <smaug____> a GC isn't enough for Gecko, it needs also a CC :)
  1070. # [23:13] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1071. # [23:14] <rniwa> smaug____: what's CC?
  1072. # [23:14] <smaug____> cycle collector
  1073. # [23:14] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@12.237.105.253)
  1074. # [23:14] <rniwa> huh
  1075. # [23:14] <rniwa> smaug____: what's cycle collector?
  1076. # [23:14] <rniwa> smaug____: does it collect objects with cycles in them?
  1077. # [23:14] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@50.59.76.58)
  1078. # [23:15] <smaug____> it is for reference counted objects
  1079. # [23:15] <rniwa> i see
  1080. # [23:15] <smaug____> CC and GC do in principle the same thing
  1081. # [23:16] <smaug____> GC handles live objects, CC tries to find to-be-deleted objects
  1082. # [23:16] <smaug____> kind of
  1083. # [23:18] <rniwa> i see.
  1084. # [23:18] * rniwa isn't familiar with gecko's GC
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  1086. # [23:19] <smaug____> Spidermonkey has GC, Gecko has CC
  1087. # [23:20] <gavin> CC is a solution to the problem caused by refcounted objects interacting with GCed objects and creating cycles
  1088. # [23:21] <smaug____> CC is also a solution for cycles which don't involve GCed objects at all.
  1089. # [23:21] <gavin> true
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  1091. # [23:24] <rniwa> smaug____, gavin: interesting
  1092. # [23:24] <rniwa> i don't think webkit has tht
  1093. # [23:24] <rniwa> that*
  1094. # [23:24] <rniwa> so we have to use clever tricks to avoid cycles :(
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  1096. # [23:28] <ehsan> rniwa: how well do they work in practice?
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  1098. # [23:32] <rniwa> ehsan: i don't know
  1099. # [23:32] <rniwa> i'm not an expert in that area
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  1102. # [23:37] <rniwa> ehsan: you should ask othermaciej :)
  1103. # [23:37] <rniwa> ehsan: we were just talking about callback interface yesterday
  1104. # [23:37] <rniwa> ehsan: he seemed knowledgable in this rea
  1105. # [23:37] <rniwa> area*
  1106. # [23:41] <othermaciej> rniwa: I actually don't understand how it historically works, but I think the general approach is to teach GC how to find relevant GC roots from the document so that there is no need to GC protect GC objects references from refcounted objects
  1107. # [23:42] <othermaciej> s/historically/currently/
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  1112. # [23:46] <rniwa> othermaciej: you mean reachable* functions?
  1113. # [23:47] <othermaciej> I don't know enough to relate it to code
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The end :)