/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 20 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:07] <Hixie> heycam: why are dictionary types not distinguishable?
  5. # [00:08] <Hixie> heycam: is there no type checking beyond "is an Object" for dictionary arguments? i.e. no checking that fields are present?
  6. # [00:17] <aklein> smaug____: not surprising...WebKit doesn't treat document fragments nearly atomically enough, I'm hacking on that this week
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  8. # [00:18] <heycam> Hixie, that's right
  9. # [00:18] <Hixie> :-(
  10. # [00:18] <aklein> smaug____: I suspect that replaceChild may also be handled differently
  11. # [00:19] <smaug____> ok
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  25. # [00:51] <zewt> reading the indexeddb spec makes me :|
  26. # [00:52] <zewt> If these steps are running asynchronously, return the created transaction and queue up the remaining steps.
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  57. # [01:54] <zewt> do browsers ever actually encode *to* legacy encodings? (eg. does the encoding spec actually need to spec all that)
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  62. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> No. No they don't.
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  64. # [02:07] * smaug____ had forgotten how horrible insertAdjacentHTML is
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  72. # [02:27] <sicking> smaug____: horrible in what way?
  73. # [02:28] <sicking> hmm.. shouldn't it throw HIERARCHY_ERROR rather than NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED?
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  75. # [02:31] <sicking> oh, and it's case insensitive :(
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  81. # [03:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins, zewt: form submission?
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  87. # [04:03] <zewt> Hixie: tested that, but broken HTTP caching decided to break the test
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  89. # [04:04] <zewt> (apparently it's 2012 and apache still doesn't include the content-type as part of etag generation, or at least that seems like the likely culprit)
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  91. # [04:09] <zewt> jesus. amazon spamming tons of requests in background tabs I havn't touched in days
  92. # [04:10] <zewt> always nice when high-profile sites set nice, low standards for everyone else to meet
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  102. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
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  125. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> amazing. http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2012/03/20/debugging-maps-google-maps
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  127. # [07:02] <heycam> who knows how Selection and Ranges work?
  128. # [07:03] <heycam> wondering if my usage of range.setStart/setEnd is correct: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1527442
  129. # [07:03] <heycam> I thought that would select the "e" from "hello ", but when I try in Firefox and Chrome I get the "there" selected
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  131. # [07:04] <heycam> same thing if I translate it to html instead of svg, so I guess I am not understanding how ranges/selection work
  132. # [07:06] <heycam> oh, since I've selected the <text> element, my indexes are child node indexes, not character offsets
  133. # [07:06] <heycam> what a straightforward API ;)
  134. # [07:07] <heycam> today's instalment of rubber duck / teddy bear debugging brought to you by heycam
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  138. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> heh
  139. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> heycam: I think AryehGregor
  140. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> and rniwa some
  141. # [07:16] <heycam> yeah
  142. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> and maybe also Ms2ger
  143. # [07:16] <heycam> oh well, problem solved
  144. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> that's a nice phrase to hear
  145. # [07:16] <heycam> ga
  146. # [07:16] <heycam> *ha
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  183. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: can you point me at the JS code that does the "Loading slowly?" popup
  184. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> hmm
  185. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> I can't add it myself to the Overview.html pages
  186. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> *page
  187. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> ah wait
  188. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> yeah I can now
  189. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie: this is in the context of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16442
  190. # [09:11] <Ms2ger> Morning Mike
  191. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: hej
  192. # [09:13] <Ms2ger> I was looking for a component to dump https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14600 into earlier
  193. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> hmm
  194. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> no brilliant ideas from me
  195. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> I can create a new component if we need one
  196. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> "Orphaned"
  197. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> "Friendless"
  198. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> "Unwelcome"
  199. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> "Unappreciated"
  200. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> Oh, I like "unwelcome"
  201. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> OK, now we need to decide on which WG
  202. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> WebApps?
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  205. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> Web Platform (other)?
  206. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> OK
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  208. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: OK, added
  209. # [09:26] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  210. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> with Description, "Features for which we have no specs whose editors are willing to give them a home."
  211. # [09:28] <Ms2ger> :)
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  213. # [09:31] * MikeSmith steps away for a bit
  214. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> See you
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  217. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> Also, I've only owned the spec for Range/Selection, that doesn't mean I know anything about it
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  225. # [10:06] <annevk> zewt: both URLs and form submission need encode
  226. # [10:07] <annevk> zewt: e.g. create a page containing <meta charset=gbk><a href=?&euro;>test</a> and see what it points to
  227. # [10:07] <annevk> might not be the most interoperable example, but you get the idea
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  232. # [10:16] <kennyluck> Why not just "Proprietary" :p
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  235. # [10:26] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah Hallvord is a bit scary
  236. # [10:26] <jgraham> Not to mention Google Maps
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  238. # [10:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you could add a noindex meta to the single-page version
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  240. # [10:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe the april date will be accurate after all...
  241. # [10:40] <jgraham> We should rewrite the charter so we can only publish on April 1st
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  250. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hadn't consider noindex yet
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  252. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> will try to set up the JS thing now
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  254. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham, zcorpan : btw, I'm sure who "a colleague who has often enough beaten me to the goal post in analysis if we happened to look at the same issue" is
  255. # [11:20] <jgraham> You are?
  256. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> s/sure/curious/
  257. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> I meant
  258. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> no idea why that came out "sure"
  259. # [11:26] <hasather> MikeSmith: Kåre Byberg
  260. # [11:27] <jgraham> Yeah, not that surprising if you are familiar with the people involved
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  262. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> hasather: thanks
  263. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> I don't think I ever met Kåre
  264. # [11:31] <hasather> MikeSmith: started working after you left I think (and he works from home)
  265. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> ah
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  267. # [11:34] <annevk> lol pub is deferred again
  268. # [11:34] <annevk> circus is in town
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  296. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> OK fwiw I added the fugly "Too slow? Try reading the multipage copy of the spec instead" thing to the W3C version of the single-page spec
  297. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html
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  304. # [13:23] <smaug____> hmm, perhaps I wasn't connected
  305. # [13:23] <smaug____> krijn: you said at some point that you may not be able to log this channel for long
  306. # [13:24] <smaug____> krijn: there is now a backup http://logbot.glob.com.au/
  307. # [13:26] <kennyluck> yay!
  308. # [13:29] <charlvn> smaug____: cool, is that a custom implementation?
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  310. # [13:30] <smaug____> charlvn: of what? I don't know
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  312. # [13:30] <smaug____> I don't maintain it
  313. # [13:31] <annevk> smaug____: so when you insert a DocumentFragment that fragment always gets a single record too right?
  314. # [13:31] <krijn> smaug____: nice!
  315. # [13:32] <smaug____> I just knew that glob had logs for some moznet channels and when krijn mentioned that he may not be able keep the logs working here, I asked glob ..
  316. # [13:32] <smaug____> annevk: yes
  317. # [13:32] <smaug____> annevk: nodes are removed from it
  318. # [13:33] <annevk> I guess DocumentFragment needs a whole special path
  319. # [13:33] <smaug____> probably yes
  320. # [13:33] <smaug____> that is what I have in implementation
  321. # [13:33] <smaug____> like there is special thingie for innerHTML
  322. # [13:34] <smaug____> and textContent
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  332. # [13:38] <annevk> hmm
  333. # [13:39] * Parts: kaustubh (~silverroo@144.187.36.11)
  334. # [13:39] <annevk> so concept-node-insert needs to queue that if node is a DocumentFragment
  335. # [13:39] <annevk> and it should probably use word different from append to move nodes around
  336. # [13:40] <annevk> then pre-insert/insert/remove need a flag to suppress record queuing
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  338. # [13:40] <annevk> and then replace/replace all need to use that
  339. # [13:41] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  340. # [13:41] <annevk> and queue their own stuff
  341. # [13:41] <smaug____> in the implementation I have "MutationBatch" stack object around the document fragment insertion
  342. # [13:41] <smaug____> the batch ends up creating just one record per observer
  343. # [13:42] <annevk> and replace/replace all also need to take special care again of DocumentFragment
  344. # [13:42] <smaug____> er, there is one batch for removal, and one for adding nodes to the new parent
  345. # [13:42] <annevk> I thought you wanted them combined for replace?
  346. # [13:42] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16373
  347. # [13:42] <smaug____> ah, that can't be done in general cas
  348. # [13:42] <smaug____> e
  349. # [13:42] <smaug____> invalid but
  350. # [13:43] <smaug____> bug even
  351. # [13:43] <annevk> hmm
  352. # [13:43] <annevk> why can it not be done?
  353. # [13:43] <smaug____> because previousSibling/nextSibling could be wrong
  354. # [13:43] <smaug____> er, hmm
  355. # [13:43] <smaug____> am I wrong here.
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  357. # [13:44] <annevk> not sure why they would be wrong
  358. # [13:45] <smaug____> nm, I was thinking different case, when one is inserting a node which has already parent
  359. # [13:45] <smaug____> that needs to create two records
  360. # [13:45] <annevk> yes
  361. # [13:47] <annevk> okay, lets try to make these edits one by one
  362. # [13:48] <annevk> already feeling pain
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  364. # [13:49] <smaug____> annevk: sorry
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  366. # [13:51] <smaug____> after writing some tests for MutationObserver, if feels pretty neat API (if I dare to say that :) ) , and fast.
  367. # [13:51] <annevk> smaug____: so if you remove everything from a DF, what are previous and nextsibling?
  368. # [13:51] <annevk> null?
  369. # [13:52] <smaug____> yes
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  371. # [13:56] <Workmon> Hey annevk, you worked on CSSOM before. Do you know if element.style.foo is supposed to support !important as part of a value?
  372. # [13:57] <annevk> that was not entirely clear I remember
  373. # [13:57] <annevk> we were not sure whether setting it should map to style.setProperty or not
  374. # [13:57] <annevk> and how
  375. # [13:59] <Workmon> I was surprised to find that .style is overriden by author !important rules
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  382. # [14:11] <zcorpan> .style is also author-level, just higher specificity
  383. # [14:14] <annevk> so nobody missed thus far that the spec does not describe MutationRecord queing of attributeNamespace?
  384. # [14:15] <smaug____> annevk: :)
  385. # [14:15] <smaug____> hey, spec reviewing is hard
  386. # [14:15] <annevk> turns out
  387. # [14:15] <zcorpan> so you wouldn't get notified about namespaced attributes?
  388. # [14:15] <smaug____> per spec
  389. # [14:16] <zcorpan> that's a feature! :-P
  390. # [14:16] <smaug____> implementations do support it
  391. # [14:19] <annevk> ah nice, it's not too hard
  392. # [14:19] <annevk> there's no namespace-based filtering
  393. # [14:20] <annevk> it just needs to be set on the object
  394. # [14:20] <annevk> piece of cake
  395. # [14:20] <smaug____> I was thinking to add support for prefix:localName filters
  396. # [14:20] <smaug____> but not sure if that is important enough
  397. # [14:26] <annevk> given that people want to deprecate everything but name/value attributes, lets not
  398. # [14:27] <zcorpan> can you currently filter for localName or qualifiedName?
  399. # [14:27] <annevk> qualified
  400. # [14:27] <zcorpan> ok
  401. # [14:28] <annevk> attribute's name is the new qualified name
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  405. # [14:38] <annevk> ugh
  406. # [14:39] <annevk> maybe I should unsubscribe from the w3c process thingie
  407. # [14:42] <annevk> anyway
  408. # [14:42] <annevk> can pre-insert and insert be merged?
  409. # [14:42] <annevk> and pre-remove / remove
  410. # [14:42] <annevk> i guess it's kind of nice for replace
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  414. # [14:56] <annevk> pre-insert does not need suppress
  415. # [14:56] <annevk> not sure why I thought it did
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  417. # [14:59] <charlvn> smaug____: ah ok, sorry was in a meeting just now
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  421. # [15:16] <smaug____> does webkit have anything similar to gecko's window.dump() ?
  422. # [15:17] <hsivonen> smaug____: console.log() maybe?
  423. # [15:17] <smaug____> nope, that is annoying
  424. # [15:18] <charlvn> never used window.dump but why is that less annoying than console.log ?
  425. # [15:19] <smaug____> charlvn: because it prints out to the terminal (if a pref is enabled)
  426. # [15:19] <smaug____> it is easier to process that data
  427. # [15:19] <charlvn> ah i see, ok
  428. # [15:20] <charlvn> i like firebug's handling of that (it allows you to neatly expand objects, etc) but that is only handy for certain types of debugging
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  430. # [15:20] <annevk> man complex mutations to mutation algorithms are complex
  431. # [15:21] <smaug____> aren't they
  432. # [15:21] <smaug____> implementing that all isn't quite trivial either
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  436. # [15:30] <annevk> ok I checked something in
  437. # [15:30] <annevk> see e.g. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-replace-all
  438. # [15:31] <annevk> the only thing that might be wrong is transient observers because I still have no clue
  439. # [15:31] <annevk> (did not bother getting a clue either)
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  441. # [15:32] <smaug____> I'll review after lunc
  442. # [15:32] <smaug____> h
  443. # [15:34] <annevk> hmm food
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  445. # [15:36] <annevk> is innerHTML defined in terms of http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-replace-all yet?
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  457. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> annevk, yes
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  463. # [16:19] <hsivonen> too bad mpilgrim doesn't blog anymore. it would have been interesting to see his comments on Mozilla's latest codec direction
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  465. # [16:28] <annevk> sweet, so everything should be good
  466. # [16:28] <annevk> although I guess I should go through the spec again checking everything that invokes mutations
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  473. # [16:51] <zcorpan> annevk: why is it "node document" rather than "owner document"?
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  477. # [16:56] <smaug____> is jarred ever here?
  478. # [16:56] <smaug____> jarred nicholls
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  510. # [17:52] <zcorpan> should we add onfullscreen* event handlers?
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  512. # [17:57] <smaug____> dglazkov: I don't understand why templates need to be hacked in via components stuff?
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  531. # [18:21] <annevk> zcorpan: it's also XMLHttpRequest document
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  533. # [18:24] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't follow
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  535. # [18:26] <annevk> aklein: did you pay attention to transient observers when reviewing?
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  537. # [18:28] <annevk> zcorpan: that's mostly the reason
  538. # [18:28] <zcorpan> annevk: node document and XMLHttpRequest document seem to have different definitions
  539. # [18:28] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't see why that makes node document be called node document instead of owner document
  540. # [18:29] <zcorpan> but maybe i'm missing something
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  542. # [18:30] <annevk> they do?
  543. # [18:30] <annevk> both are x document where a given document is associated with x in some way
  544. # [18:30] <annevk> I don't really feel strongly about this, but that's the reason they are named similarly
  545. # [18:31] <zcorpan> ah, ok, i see what you mean
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  547. # [18:33] <zcorpan> i think that "node document" is still a weird name, and it's used in various specs (e.g. fullscreen)
  548. # [18:33] <zcorpan> maybe "XMLHttpRequest document" is also a weird name, but i don't have a better suggestion for that one
  549. # [18:35] <zcorpan> should i file a bug to rename node document?
  550. # [18:35] <annevk> I kind of like it personally and renaming it is going to be pain, but I suppose we could do it at some point
  551. # [18:36] <annevk> pain being make work, it's probably not that much effort overall
  552. # [18:36] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  553. # [18:37] <dglazkov> smaug____: does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html help a little bit?
  554. # [18:37] <smaug____> looking
  555. # [18:38] <smaug____> dglazkov: well, why not get one thing done first
  556. # [18:38] <smaug____> like shadow dom
  557. # [18:39] <dglazkov> smaug____: what's the harm in having multiple tracks?
  558. # [18:39] <smaug____> dglazkov: well, makes reviewing harder
  559. # [18:40] <smaug____> no idea what parts of web components are in which stability level
  560. # [18:40] <dglazkov> smaug____: how? you can review sequentially :)
  561. # [18:40] <smaug____> and why they are all under web components
  562. # [18:40] <dglazkov> smaug____: well, that's why in my update, I mention that shadow DOM is in the bug fix long tail mode. And that templates is just a first draft.
  563. # [18:41] <dglazkov> smaug____: that's what the explainer doc explains, hopefully
  564. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> Workmon: There was a discussion about !important in @style. I don't think we came to a firm conclusion (I can't find the discussion now) but I believe the consensus was not to allow it. (Or, perhaps, to allow it syntactically but have it do nothing.)
  565. # [18:41] <smaug____> but why aren't they just very much separate drafts?
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  567. # [18:42] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2012Mar/0076.html hmm
  568. # [18:42] <dglazkov> smaug____: that's why they are. I am not sure how much more separate they should be?
  569. # [18:42] <annevk> I wonder how to explain that CSS is not working that great...
  570. # [18:42] <annevk> maybe just not bother is better
  571. # [18:42] <smaug____> dglazkov: just remove the whole concept of "web components" :)
  572. # [18:43] <dglazkov> smaug____: no :)
  573. # [18:43] <smaug____> there are just separate proposals, which have little to do with each other
  574. # [18:44] <annevk> smaug____: that's the opposite argument others made a while back...
  575. # [18:44] <dglazkov> smaug____: sure. why is that bothering you?
  576. # [18:44] <annevk> smaug____: then people were complaining the whole picture was not clear
  577. # [18:44] <annevk> circles!
  578. # [18:44] <smaug____> annevk: the whole picture is still not at all clear
  579. # [18:44] <smaug____> I don't understand how templates are related to shadow dom
  580. # [18:45] <dglazkov> smaug____: they aren't related directly. If you'd read the explainer, you'd know that both templates and shadow DOM are used by custom elements
  581. # [18:45] <dglazkov> smaug____: they are building blocks
  582. # [18:46] <dglazkov> smaug____: spec-wise, it will start coming together nicely when the custom elements spec is in place
  583. # [18:46] <dglazkov> smaug____: I am ramping up to do that
  584. # [18:47] <smaug____> ok
  585. # [18:47] <dglazkov> smaug____: but first, I wrote a polyfill to try and play with what's already there: https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill
  586. # [18:47] <aklein> annevk: just got in, catching up on the scrollback now...
  587. # [18:47] <dglazkov> smaug____: it's essentially using the shadow DOM impl in WebKit and some minor js hackery to emulate templates
  588. # [18:48] <annevk> aklein: kk, there's no rush, I'll look at this again tomorrow if there's any need to follow up
  589. # [18:48] <dglazkov> smaug____: still working on that, but once it's solid, I'll try to write the whole thing as a spec draft
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  591. # [18:48] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
  592. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> rniwa, yes.
  593. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Dimitri's example shows off how annoying building the HTML for components is in pure JS. ^_^
  594. # [18:49] <rniwa> AryehGregor: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81661
  595. # [18:49] <rniwa> AryehGregor: for this bug, what's the correct behavior per spec?
  596. # [18:49] <rniwa> AryehGregor: or rather, where is this behavior spec'ed?
  597. # [18:49] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: the tab manager one? yep. That's crazy stuff
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  599. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> Yup. Btw, thanks for reformatting it to look like HTML. I had to do that myself earlier just to see what it was doing. ^_^
  600. # [18:49] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: that's this code by the way: https://github.com/dglazkov/Tabs
  601. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> rniwa, AFAIK, keypress isn't specced anywhere in reasonable detail. I guess here is technically where it's specced: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#event-type-keypress
  602. # [18:52] <dglazkov> before scoped styles, it was even more awful: https://github.com/dglazkov/Tabs/blob/c14c3e58a2cf0d0cce5aaa7d11ae48be1b25fbc3/tabs-control.js
  603. # [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yeah but that doesn't tell us anything :(
  604. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's the problem. :)
  605. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> There's no good spec for key or mouse events AFAIK, where "good" means "actually tells you exactly what to do".
  606. # [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: alright, I'm gonna start a thread on public-webapps then
  607. # [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yeah
  608. # [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: we need that.
  609. # [18:52] <rniwa> AryehGregor: UA behaviors don't agree at all in this area
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  616. # [19:21] <dglazkov> smaug____: reminder -- review shadow DOM spec! :P
  617. # [19:22] <smaug____> I should I should!
  618. # [19:22] <smaug____> please give me some more hours per day
  619. # [19:22] <zcorpan> just neglect sleep
  620. # [19:23] <smaug____> aklein: ping
  621. # [19:25] <aklein> smaug____: pong
  622. # [19:25] <dglazkov> aklein: can you give smaug____ more hours per day?
  623. # [19:26] <smaug____> aklein: about delivery order
  624. # [19:26] <rniwa> TabAtkins: what do you feel if I proposed to add "auto" value to direction property?
  625. # [19:26] <smaug____> aklein: I kind of like what you proposed
  626. # [19:27] <smaug____> but the problem is that it adds a special case for microtask handling
  627. # [19:27] <smaug____> kind of
  628. # [19:27] <smaug____> handling a callback should be a microtask
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  632. # [19:29] <aklein> smaug____: and you say "should be" because it avoids special-casing?
  633. # [19:29] <smaug____> well, I don't like special cases. I prefer consistency
  634. # [19:32] <smaug____> aklein: is there some case where the original behavior is really bad ?
  635. # [19:32] <aklein> I'm trying to recall exactly where the special-casing of mutation callbacks came from
  636. # [19:32] <aklein> the first thing that comes to mind is a sense of "fairness", sort of round-robin scheduling of callbacks
  637. # [19:32] <smaug____> aklein: native calling JS is a microtask
  638. # [19:33] <smaug____> so if there are observers A and B, and A's callback is called, end of microtask is when the callback has just been handled
  639. # [19:33] <smaug____> the new behavior kind of make end of microtask to be after B's callback
  640. # [19:35] <aklein> I think the issue is that you're thinking about the mutation observer invocation as the only thing that might happen at end of microtask
  641. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> rniwa: What would it do?
  642. # [19:35] <aklein> but really the whole algorithm is just one thing that runs at the end of microtask
  643. # [19:36] <aklein> and should be thought of handling the case when it is called from within a callback invoked by itself
  644. # [19:37] <smaug____> that is one way to think about it. But it isn't consistent how microtask works elsewhere
  645. # [19:38] <smaug____> ok, html spec has that inconsistent behavior
  646. # [19:38] <smaug____> aklein: I don't care too much about this though
  647. # [19:39] <smaug____> I care a tiny bit more about case-sensitiveness of filter values ;)
  648. # [19:40] <smaug____> ah, HTML spec is buggy here
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  650. # [19:41] <smaug____> or do I need to read DOM4...
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  654. # [19:48] <rniwa> TabAtkins: it would behave like dir="auto"
  655. # [19:49] <rniwa> TabAtkins: right now, dir=auto is a weird beast that doesn't have a css equivalent
  656. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> rniwa: Ah, kk.
  657. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> We don't really like 'direction', though.
  658. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> I'm not opposed to it, but 'direction' was a mistake.
  659. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> And it's possible that the CSSWG will object to further extending it.
  660. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> But perhaps not.
  661. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> I dunno.
  662. # [19:55] <zcorpan> i suspect that browsers that implement dir="" by mapping it to 'direction' today would want to use a css value when implementing dir=auto
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  664. # [20:05] <rniwa> zcorpan: right.
  665. # [20:05] <rniwa> zcorpan: right now, we have lots of code that deals with dir=auto :(
  666. # [20:05] <rniwa> zcorpan: because the computed value still needs to be left/right
  667. # [20:06] <zcorpan> ugh
  668. # [20:06] <rniwa> and we need to sort of re-implement style resolution mechanism just for dir=auto
  669. # [20:06] <rniwa> direction supports inherit, etc...
  670. # [20:06] <rniwa> it's really annoying from implementor's point of view
  671. # [20:07] <zcorpan> in that case i think we should add auto as a css value and drop the complexity
  672. # [20:08] <zcorpan> even if the css wg doesn't want to spec it :-P
  673. # [20:08] <zcorpan> but that's just imho
  674. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Sure, that's all a good argument.
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  677. # [20:12] <rniwa> zcorpan, TabAtkins: okay.
  678. # [20:12] <rniwa> i guess we can prefix and add -webkit-auto for now
  679. # [20:12] <zcorpan> nooooooo :-)
  680. # [20:12] <zcorpan> call it auto :-)
  681. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Call it -o-auto
  682. # [20:12] <rniwa> Ms2ger: LOL
  683. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> Or -proprietary-do-not-ever-use-this-in-production-code-auto
  684. # [20:13] <gsnedders> Nah, implement -webkit-webkit-auto. All the cool kids use -webkit- prefixes.
  685. # [20:14] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I think direciton: auto will be useful.
  686. # [20:14] <rniwa> Ms2ger: since browsers already support dir=auto pretty well (so not much according to bidi experts but reasonably well)
  687. # [20:14] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it's probably fine to just add auto
  688. # [20:15] <rniwa> zcorpan: can someone add that to CSS3 writing mode spec?
  689. # [20:15] <rniwa> i'm more than happy to file a bug but..
  690. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> Yeah, suggest it on the list, the Cabal^WWG will get to it in 2035
  691. # [20:16] <rniwa> Ms2ger: unfortunately i've been kicked out of www-style due to some mail deamon issue
  692. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> I heard
  693. # [20:16] <rniwa> and i'm reluctant to go through all the troubles to get back on it :(
  694. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, can't you fix that?
  695. # [20:18] <rniwa> filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16456
  696. # [20:21] <zcorpan> rniwa: thanks. i don't know who the someone is, though :-)
  697. # [20:25] <rniwa> zcorpan: seems like it's fantasai
  698. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Yes, fantasai is the one to bug about Writing Modes.
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  713. # [21:13] <smaug____> aklein: finally I found the bug which caused failures in your or rafaels testTreeMirror.html
  714. # [21:13] <smaug____> aklein: now both test.html and testTreeMirror.html pass
  715. # [21:13] * Joins: Hixie (~ianh@trivini.no)
  716. # [21:13] <smaug____> (except I have the change to make filtering case-sensitive)
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  719. # [21:18] <annevk> does the spec say attribute filtering is case-insensitive, because I would definitely consider that a bug?
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  722. # [21:23] <smaug____> annevk: no
  723. # [21:23] <smaug____> annevk: that is a bug in webkit
  724. # [21:23] <smaug____> well, I say it is a bug, aklein disagrees :)
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  726. # [21:26] <annevk> interesting
  727. # [21:26] <annevk> well as long as nobody files a bug on the spec, it's a bug in WebKit
  728. # [21:26] <annevk> but DOM APIs are generally case-sensitive, with a couple of exceptions
  729. # [21:27] <smaug____> exactly
  730. # [21:27] <annevk> so it seems better to stick to that here
  731. # [21:27] <smaug____> and old DOMAttrModified requires case sensitive filtering (in the listener)
  732. # [21:28] <annevk> does the case-insensitiveness depend on the node's namespace?
  733. # [21:28] <annevk> though even it seems wrong
  734. # [21:29] <smaug____> annevk: it depends on ownerdocument, I believe
  735. # [21:29] <annevk> e.g. if you have <html:p TEST="" test=""/> you would not be able to distinguish between the two attributes
  736. # [21:29] <smaug____> in HTML doc, case-insensitive
  737. # [21:29] <smaug____> it doesn't really make sense to me
  738. # [21:29] <annevk> is there an open bug in WebKit on that?
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  740. # [21:30] <smaug____> haven't filed
  741. # [21:30] <annevk> if you do, let me know, I'll add my +1
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  750. # [22:04] <aklein> back from lunch, I see that the case sensitivity issue has been mostly settled :)
  751. # [22:05] <aklein> annevk: but I wanted to clarify how WebKit's impl works, because I think there's a misunderstanding
  752. # [22:05] <aklein> it's only case-insensitive if the element with the attribute is an HTML element in an HTML document
  753. # [22:05] <aklein> if it's an XML document, then the filter is case-sensitive
  754. # [22:06] <aklein> anyway, just wanted to throw that out there, I don't think I care enough to argue much further (and it's easy to "fix" in webkit, the implementation is clearly easier if it's always case-sensitive)
  755. # [22:08] <annevk> I would personally prefer if we do not introduce more of it given that HTML actually generates a case-sensitive DOM
  756. # [22:09] <annevk> the parser actively lowercases names when creating nodes and attributes
  757. # [22:09] <annevk> that setAttribute() and such behave similarly is a legacy aspect of our predecessors not really knowing what they were doing :pdf
  758. # [22:10] <annevk> oops, meant :p there
  759. # [22:10] <aklein> ok, that's was smaug____'s argument as well, so I'll defer to y'all.
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  762. # [22:12] <rniwa> aklein, annevk: I support making it case sensitive
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  764. # [22:12] <rniwa> it's cheaper to compare that way :)
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  766. # [22:13] <annevk> making rniwa's day by nanosecond perf improvements; yay
  767. # [22:13] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, I don't like case insensitive comparison period.
  768. # [22:13] <rniwa> it's confusing and has surprising effects
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  772. # [22:16] <rafaelw_> annevk: so my concern is that webdevs will do observe(node, { attributeFilter: 'HREF' ])
  773. # [22:16] <rafaelw_> and never get any indication why that does nothing.
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  775. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> We can always warn about that :)
  776. # [22:16] <rafaelw_> which is especially confusion because they would have markup that has <A HREF='FOO'>
  777. # [22:17] <rafaelw_> or do anchor.setAttribute('FOO', 'bar');
  778. # [22:17] <rafaelw_> and anchor.getAttribute('FOO') // returns 'bar'
  779. # [22:17] <annevk> rafaelw_: I thought you argued earlier those kind of developers would use a library
  780. # [22:17] <annevk> rafaelw_: we cannot both have this be a low-level and high-level API at the same time
  781. # [22:17] <rafaelw_> and node.matchesSelector('[HREF]')
  782. # [22:17] <rafaelw_> and that will work.
  783. # [22:17] <rafaelw_> meaning, everything else they do seems to work, but this doesn.t
  784. # [22:18] <rafaelw_> ms2ger, i don't see how we'll warn.
  785. # [22:18] <rafaelw_> annevk: i don't think the library can do anything.
  786. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> In the console when you call observe?
  787. # [22:18] <annevk> a library can lowercase
  788. # [22:19] <rniwa> rafaelw_: but attributeFilter isn't a selector list, right?
  789. # [22:19] <rafaelw_> ok, then by that logic, why not just either lowercase all attributes in attributeFilter or throw an error if there are upper case?
  790. # [22:19] <annevk> I think it's unfortunate we made querySelector case-insensitive
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  792. # [22:19] <rniwa> annevk: yeah
  793. # [22:19] <annevk> I think that was mostly because we had not figured out the new world HTML DOM
  794. # [22:20] <annevk> (which is the same as the "XML DOM" plus some quirks)
  795. # [22:20] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: what if you want to observe 'viewBox' on <svg> in an html doc?
  796. # [22:21] <annevk> zcorpan: if we do it we'd do isHTMLDocument && ele.namespaceURI == HTMLNS
  797. # [22:21] <zcorpan> annevk: ah yeah
  798. # [22:21] <rniwa> annevk, zcorpan, rafaelw_: we could do case-insensitive comparison for html attributes inside a html document
  799. # [22:22] <rniwa> but i'd rather not
  800. # [22:22] <rniwa> it complicates the api
  801. # [22:22] <rniwa> given that all attribute names and element names are converted into lower-case equivalent, i don't see why case-insensitive comparison is useful today.
  802. # [22:23] <zcorpan> case-sensitive sounds good to me, everyone uses lowercase anyway
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  804. # [22:23] <annevk> and there's actually problems with some of the case-insensitive stuff today
  805. # [22:23] <annevk> while the HTML parser only does ASCII
  806. # [22:24] <annevk> setAttribute also lowercases characters outside ASCII
  807. # [22:24] <annevk> similarly Selectors are not doing ASCII case-insensitive
  808. # [22:24] <zcorpan> maybe if somebody uses data-fooBar=baz and then observes 'data-fooBar', that won't work and might be confusing
  809. # [22:24] <annevk> I think we can still fix that however
  810. # [22:24] <rafaelw_> annevk: so i'd likely handle this exactly as you suggest in the library: lower-case the attributes.
  811. # [22:25] <rafaelw_> this will have the effect of simply not supporting SVG documents or elements.
  812. # [22:25] <zcorpan> annevk: that seems like bugs in setAttribute and selectors
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  814. # [22:26] <rafaelw_> ms2ger: warning at observe() doesn't work.
  815. # [22:26] <rafaelw_> at that point, you don't know what elements will ultimatley have mutations.
  816. # [22:26] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah I haven't had time to research that and file the appropriate bugs yet
  817. # [22:26] <annevk> maybe tomorrow
  818. # [22:26] <rafaelw_> a document can be mixed with XML and html elements.
  819. # [22:26] <annevk> because it really stinks
  820. # [22:27] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: we can easily support svg by checking the namespace of the element
  821. # [22:27] <rafaelw_> support *in what*?
  822. # [22:27] <annevk> if this turns out to be a common source of problems, I think we can still make it insensitive then
  823. # [22:27] <annevk> and otherwise libraries can just lowercase, because all attributes will be lowercase anyway
  824. # [22:28] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: observe(node, { attributeFilter: 'HREF' ])
  825. # [22:28] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: if we decide to go for case-insensitive there
  826. # [22:29] <rafaelw_> annevk: expect XML elements, right?
  827. # [22:29] <rafaelw_> s/expect/except/
  828. # [22:29] <rafaelw_> zcorpan: I don't understand what you are proposing.
  829. # [22:30] <zcorpan> hold on lemme read the spec
  830. # [22:31] <rniwa> odd. i thought qualified attribute names preserve the case but apparently not :(
  831. # [22:31] <rniwa> at least on webkit & firefox
  832. # [22:31] <Hixie> if someone calls addHitRegion() with arguments that make no sense, what exception should we throw?
  833. # [22:31] <Hixie> a new one?
  834. # [22:31] <annevk> rafaelw_: yeah, I guess it would not work for SVG or some such, so you probably need to use a map
  835. # [22:31] <Hixie> i don't see one for "your arguments are illogical"
  836. # [22:31] <rniwa> all attributes on html elements are turned into lower-case equivalents
  837. # [22:31] * Hixie considers creating a new SpockUnhappyException
  838. # [22:31] <rafaelw_> "use a map"?
  839. # [22:31] <annevk> viewbox->viewBox
  840. # [22:32] <Hixie> or rather, SpockUnimpressedError
  841. # [22:32] <annevk> :)
  842. # [22:32] <Hixie> annevk: any suggestions?
  843. # [22:32] <Hixie> NotSupportedError?
  844. # [22:32] <annevk> I think minting a cool new one is fine
  845. # [22:32] <annevk> but yeah, NotSupportedError works
  846. # [22:32] <Ms2ger> Could use SyntaxError
  847. # [22:33] <Hixie> SyntaxError seems wrong since there's no syntax here really
  848. # [22:33] <Hixie> it's the semantics that are wrong
  849. # [22:34] <Hixie> i'll use NotSupportedError unless you mint me a better one
  850. # [22:34] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@adsl-99-176-4-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: annevk)
  851. # [22:36] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-mutationobserver-observe if target is in the html namespace and target's node document is an html document, ascii-lowercase the attributeFilter names
  852. # [22:37] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@kotnet-146.kulnet.kuleuven.be) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  853. # [22:38] <Hixie> heycam: why does the algorithm for converting a JS value to an IDL dictionary not take into account default values?
  854. # [22:39] <rafaelw_> zcorpan: and what do you do if the observation is configured with subtree: true?
  855. # [22:40] <rafaelw_> i.e. you directly observe the root of an HTML document that contains some SVG elements?
  856. # [22:40] <rafaelw_> (and use subtree observation)
  857. # [22:40] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: ah, that wouldn't work, would it. it'd need to lowercase in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-mo-queue-attributes instead
  858. # [22:41] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: but then i think it is better to always be case-sensitive
  859. # [22:41] <rafaelw_> correct. that's more or less the behavior currrently in webkit.
  860. # [22:48] <rafaelw_> i don't really understand this idea that HTML is generally case-sensitive. what developer-visible behavior would suggest that?
  861. # [22:50] <Hixie> XML, the DOM, and CSS are generally case-sensitive, HTML isn't
  862. # [22:50] <Hixie> URLs, too
  863. # [22:50] <Hixie> (are case-sensitive)
  864. # [22:51] <Hixie> (HTML is a mess though)
  865. # [22:51] <rafaelw_> Hixie, right. Not sure if you're following the Mutation Observers discussion. The question is whether attributeFilter should match case-insensitively against HTML elements in HTML documents.
  866. # [22:51] <Hixie> oh, the element names are case-sensitive, sure
  867. # [22:51] <Hixie> they're always lowercase, specifically
  868. # [22:51] <Hixie> but that's not HTML
  869. # [22:51] <Hixie> that's the DOM
  870. # [22:52] <rafaelw_> the issue is attribute names
  871. # [22:52] <Hixie> same with attribute names
  872. # [22:52] <Hixie> HTML attribute names are always lowercase, SVG's are mixed
  873. # [22:52] <Hixie> they're all case-sensitive though in the DOM
  874. # [22:53] <Hixie> i don't see why you'd be case-insensitive there, that's not HTML
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  877. # [22:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: getAttribute, setAttribute, removeAttribute, hasAttribute all case-fold to lowercase for html elements in html docs
  878. # [22:57] <rafaelw_> I understand that's how the DOM is spec'd. It seems to me that the behavior of HTML appears to case-insensitive.
  879. # [22:58] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah but they're wacked
  880. # [22:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: that's a different argument :-)
  881. # [22:58] <rafaelw_> hixie: what's not wacked?
  882. # [22:58] <Hixie> rafaelw_: there are apis that are historically case-insensitive, i'll grant you
  883. # [22:58] <rafaelw_> i.e. if i'm a web-developer, what API would suggest to me that HTML APIS are case-sensitive
  884. # [22:58] <Hixie> the main reason i wouldn't go there as a spec author is that it is a huge pain to maintain apis that are sometimes case-sensitive
  885. # [22:58] <Hixie> people like zcorpan find bugs in those apis for months
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  887. # [22:59] <zcorpan> why does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-element-getelementsbytagname seems confused about localName and qualifiedName
  888. # [22:59] <zcorpan> er
  889. # [22:59] <Hixie> case in point ^
  890. # [22:59] <zcorpan> s/why does//
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  893. # [23:05] <rafaelw_> Hixie: getElementsByTagName is your example to my question above?
  894. # [23:06] <Hixie> no, it's my example of zcorpan finding bugs for months in apis that try to be clever
  895. # [23:09] <rafaelw_> sorry if i'm being difficult. i'm trying to understand the objection to being case-insensitive in the common case (HTML elements in HTML document).
  896. # [23:09] <rafaelw_> I'm not clear if the argument is that it's bad behavior, if it's prone to produce bugs?
  897. # [23:10] <Hixie> i don't really object, as spec writer you do what you think is best :-)
  898. # [23:10] <Hixie> i'm just saying that from one spec writer to another, your life will be easier if you make it case-sensitive
  899. # [23:10] <rafaelw_> Ok. I get that. I'm fine having my life be more difficult if it results in a better API. that seems like my job.
  900. # [23:10] <Hixie> the underlying infrastructure is case-sensitive, so any case-insensitive logic has to be layered on top of that
  901. # [23:11] <rafaelw_> it's already implemented in webkit. it's possible there are bugs, but the implementation seems simple enough (and doesn't have a perf cost in the common case).
  902. # [23:12] <zcorpan> this should be pretty simple to get right i think
  903. # [23:12] <smaug____> I don't see any reason for case-insensitive filters
  904. # [23:12] <smaug____> this is new API
  905. # [23:12] <smaug____> and even with the old mutation events one needs to use case-sensitive comparisons
  906. # [23:13] <rafaelw_> the reason is that it'll be surprising that it's *not* case sensitive. it will silently fail.
  907. # [23:13] <smaug____> (when filtering attributes in DOMAttrModified listener)
  908. # [23:13] <smaug____> why would anyone use uppercase attr names as filters when dealing with HTML doc?
  909. # [23:14] <smaug____> it the API clearly says that it is not case sensitive
  910. # [23:14] <zcorpan> smaug____: they might use an attribute data-fooBar="" in the markup and observe for "data-fooBar"
  911. # [23:14] <smaug____> DOMAttrModified isn't case-insensitive
  912. # [23:15] <smaug____> zcorpan: that is just a bug
  913. # [23:15] <Hixie> is anyone arguing that the api should be case-insensitive for svg?
  914. # [23:15] <Hixie> or mathml?
  915. # [23:15] <rafaelw_> nope.
  916. # [23:15] <Hixie> if not, why not? it seems like most arguments for html would apply to those too
  917. # [23:16] <Hixie> (other than consistency with the wacked api entry points)
  918. # [23:16] <zcorpan> smaug____: still, it's probably a surprise to an author who does it and doesn't know the details of html/dom case sensitivity
  919. # [23:16] <Hixie> (but they're already inconsistent with others)
  920. # [23:16] <rafaelw_> can we just stop for a second.
  921. # [23:16] <rafaelw_> every keeps saying "wacked" API.
  922. # [23:16] <rniwa> rafaelw_, smaug____, zcorpan: my expectation is that anyone who's good enough to use new mutation observer api would know that all html attributes are converted into lowercase names
  923. # [23:16] <rafaelw_> can someone give me an example of NON-wacked api?
  924. # [23:16] <Hixie> on the web? is that a trick question? :-)
  925. # [23:16] <rniwa> and if they don't, then they're good enough to write tests to figure it out themselves
  926. # [23:17] <smaug____> rniwa: indeed
  927. # [23:17] <rafaelw_> i'm trying to make the point that webdevs expectation is that HTML DOM apis are case-insensitive.
  928. # [23:17] <smaug____> rafaelw_: they are not
  929. # [23:17] <rafaelw_> querySelector behaves to be
  930. # [23:17] <rafaelw_> setAttribute
  931. # [23:17] <smaug____> some APIs convert parameter to lowercase or uppercase
  932. # [23:17] <rafaelw_> hasAttribute
  933. # [23:17] <rniwa> i guess i've lived in pure XML world too long
  934. # [23:17] <Hixie> Element.namespaceURI, .prefix, .localName all return the internal case
  935. # [23:18] <smaug____> MutationObserver is a new API
  936. # [23:18] <Hixie> .className and getElementsByClassName() are case-sensitive
  937. # [23:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: nobody uses those
  938. # [23:18] <Hixie> speak for yourself
  939. # [23:18] <rniwa> smaug____, Hixie, zcorpan: i think it makes sense for it be case insensitive if we're going to support simple selectors in the future
  940. # [23:18] <rafaelw_> yes. but for all of those, the DOM has forced as case for the storage of the names
  941. # [23:18] <Hixie> setAttributeNS() seems to be case-sensitive too
  942. # [23:18] <zcorpan> no, i speak for web developers at large, not for myself or for you :-)
  943. # [23:18] <rafaelw_> so the effect appears to be that they are case-insensitive.
  944. # [23:18] <Hixie> rafaelw_: ?
  945. # [23:19] <rafaelw_> div = document.createElement('div');
  946. # [23:19] <zcorpan> className and getElementsByClassName are case-sensitive in selectors as well, so authors are used to that
  947. # [23:19] <Hixie> rafaelw_: createElementNS() doesn't lowercase anything
  948. # [23:19] <rafaelw_> div.tagName; // 'DIV"
  949. # [23:20] <rafaelw_> no one uses createElementNS
  950. # [23:20] <Hixie> rafaelw_: div.localName; // 'div'
  951. # [23:20] <rniwa> Hixie: btw, i've just realized that all attributes on an html element (even ones with namespace) will be have lowercase names.
  952. # [23:20] <Hixie> rafaelw_: no one uses mutation observers either
  953. # [23:20] <rniwa> Hixie: and i think that's rather unintuitive...
  954. # [23:20] <Hixie> rniwa: text/html HTML elements don't have namespaces
  955. # [23:20] <rafaelw_> I never knew there was a 'localName'
  956. # [23:21] <Hixie> rafaelw_: you asked for apis that aren't wacked. i'm letting you know that dom core has plenty of apis that are case-sensitive. whether you know about them or not doesn't change the api...
  957. # [23:21] * smaug____ uses localName all the time
  958. # [23:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: we could make localName preserve case precisely because nobody used it
  959. # [23:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: if people had used it, we would be forced to make it return uppercase
  960. # [23:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: and we did it because it's a better thing to do, right?
  961. # [23:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah
  962. # [23:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: i rest my case :-)
  963. # [23:21] <zcorpan> since otherwise it's not possible to get the real case of an element
  964. # [23:22] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  965. # [23:22] <Hixie> if we make mutation observers canonicalise case for filters of HTML elements, there'd be no way to catch changes to attributes that aren't lowercase
  966. # [23:22] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-jnyntdwactyegavy) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  967. # [23:23] <zcorpan> right
  968. # [23:23] <Hixie> anyway i think this is up to rafaelw_ to decide. there are arguments on both sides.
  969. # [23:23] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@80.232.109.46) (Quit: Leaving...)
  970. # [23:23] <Hixie> personally i think clever apis tend to cost more than they're worth on the long run
  971. # [23:24] <Hixie> but despite that i'm always making "clever" apis
  972. # [23:24] <smaug____> (why is it up to rafaelw_ to decide ? )
  973. # [23:24] <Hixie> smaug____: isn't he writing the spec?
  974. # [23:24] <Hixie> so i can certainly understand the attraction here
  975. # [23:24] <smaug____> no
  976. # [23:24] <Hixie> smaug____: oh. who is?
  977. # [23:25] <zcorpan> it's part of dom4
  978. # [23:25] <rniwa> Hixie: i think aklein wrote some draft and then annevk merged it into dom 4
  979. # [23:25] <Hixie> well imho it's up to whoever is writing the spec, whoever that is :-)
  980. # [23:25] <rniwa> Hixie: AryehGregor and annevk's call then :)
  981. # [23:25] <Hixie> (and then up to the implementors to decide if that makes sense, of course)
  982. # [23:25] <rniwa> also Ms2ger's
  983. # [23:26] <Hixie> should be one person's call as far as the spec goes
  984. # [23:26] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@80.232.109.46)
  985. # [23:26] <Hixie> having co-editors means blame gets split, which reduces accountability
  986. # [23:29] * Joins: smaug_____ (~chatzilla@GGYYYKMMMCXXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  987. # [23:29] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-21-19-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  988. # [23:29] <smaug_____> nice, this laptop suddenly decided to ask PUK
  989. # [23:30] <smaug_____> Hixie: anne has been updating the spec, and aklein wrote some of it, and I designed large part of it with rafaelw_ and aklein
  990. # [23:32] <rafaelw_> i don't really care to die on this hill. it just seems like it's convenient for us and makes life harder for webdevs.
  991. # [23:32] <rafaelw_> i'm fine letting anne make the call.
  992. # [23:34] <rafaelw_> FWIW, for libraries (like mutation observers), if the behavior is always case-sensitive, then the sane thing to do is to simply lower-case the attributeFilter if the doc is HTML
  993. # [23:34] <rafaelw_> which will fail to handle the case of SVG or MATHML elements in an HTML document.
  994. # [23:35] <zcorpan> rafaelw_: yeah that's a good argument to let browsers do the case folding
  995. # [23:36] <Hixie> rafaelw_: honestly i don't understand why any authors would ever pass in uppercase attribute names here
  996. # [23:36] <Hixie> rafaelw_: (why would a library wrap this api? is the api not usable directly?)
  997. # [23:37] <smaug_____> if one really needs to handle attrs case-insentively, it is always possible to filter records in the callback
  998. # [23:37] <rafaelw_> my experience of webdevs is that they think that all of HTML is case-insensitive.
  999. # [23:37] <smaug_____> insensitively
  1000. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> That is my experience as a webdev.
  1001. # [23:37] <Hixie> we should transition them away from that viewpoint, since that viewpoint doesn't match reality and will just cause them bugs
  1002. # [23:38] <rafaelw_> hixie: http://code.google.com/p/mutation-summary/
  1003. # [23:40] <Hixie> rafaelw_: do you lowercase the inputs in that api?
  1004. # [23:40] <rafaelw_> smaug: to do that, you'd have to take the input attributeFilter, wrap it, and output an attributeFilter that had every permutation of lower-vs-upper-case.
  1005. # [23:40] <rafaelw_> not yet. i'm saying, i'll probably make that change if we make this one.
  1006. # [23:41] <Hixie> lame
  1007. # [23:41] <Hixie> :-P
  1008. # [23:41] <rafaelw_> i think our leverage to "push" webdevs to do anything next to nothing.
  1009. # [23:42] <smaug_____> rafaelw_: why. JS filter could work just like your C++ filter
  1010. # [23:42] <smaug_____> keep too lists, case-sensitive and lowercase
  1011. # [23:42] <smaug_____> attributes in HTML are lowercase
  1012. # [23:43] <smaug_____> so filtering would be fast
  1013. # [23:43] <rniwa> +1 to Hixie's idea of transitioning them to the new view point
  1014. # [23:44] <rafaelw_> smaug: that's true, actually.
  1015. # [23:44] <rafaelw_> that would probably work.
  1016. # [23:44] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-20-207-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  1017. # [23:45] <rniwa> btw, i think changing the spec later to support insensitive comparison is a fairly safe change to make
  1018. # [23:45] <rniwa> so if enough people complain when this api becomes more widely known
  1019. # [23:45] <rniwa> then we should be able to change
  1020. # [23:47] <smaug____> rafaelw_: btw, do you remember if the spec for innerHTML has been updated to support MutationObserver
  1021. # [23:47] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-114-30.dynamic.hinet.net)
  1022. # [23:48] <rniwa> smaug____: it doesn't support now?
  1023. # [23:48] * Quits: smaug_____ (~chatzilla@GGYYYKMMMCXXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1024. # [23:48] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@155.Red-79-149-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  1025. # [23:48] <smaug____> rniwa: the batching part might need some tweaking
  1026. # [23:49] <smaug____> I mean that all the removed nodes end up to .removedNodes, and new nodes to .addedNodes
  1027. # [23:49] <aklein> smaug____: looks like it uses "replace all"
  1028. # [23:49] <aklein> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#innerhtml
  1029. # [23:49] * Joins: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org)
  1030. # [23:49] <rniwa> smaug____: that sounds reasonable to me.
  1031. # [23:49] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  1032. # [23:50] <aklein> smaug____: so it should work
  1033. # [23:50] <rniwa> smaug____: why do we want a different behavior here?
  1034. # [23:50] <smaug____> aklein: ah, good. (replace all was broken in DOM4 still yesterday :) )
  1035. # [23:51] <smaug____> rniwa: what different behavior
  1036. # [23:52] * Quits: nesta_ (~nesta_@155.Red-79-149-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1037. # [23:54] <rniwa> smaug____: so i just got confused by your question.
  1038. # [23:54] <rniwa>
  1039. # [23:54] <rniwa> smaug____: i thought you were proposing to do something special for innerHTML
  1040. # [23:54] <rniwa> smaug____: as it's not the case, we're on the same page here
  1041. # [23:54] <smaug____> good :)
  1042. # [23:57] * Joins: cullenjennings (~fluffy@nat/cisco/x-rcepkryifekegidd)
  1043. # [23:57] <rafaelw_> smaug:
  1044. # [23:58] <rniwa> smaug____, Hixie: odd, i thought there was a way to obtain a fully qualified name of a html element but i can't find any api for that :\
  1045. # [23:58] <rafaelw_> hixie: annevk: ok. i yield. smaug_'s suggestion is a good one. i'll just support this at the library level.
  1046. # [23:59] * Joins: FACEFOX (~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
  1047. # Session Close: Wed Mar 21 00:00:00 2012

The end :)