/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-22 / end

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  189. # [08:09] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11960#c19 - i wonder what demos and tests
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  194. # [08:22] <Ms3ger> zcorpan: http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/performance/irishspring/
  195. # [08:25] <zcorpan> <!-- The sounds -- oh the wonderful sounds! -->
  196. # [08:25] <zcorpan> i love firefox's source highlighting
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  201. # [08:30] <heycam> Copyright �
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  210. # [09:00] <niloy> browser is rendering an empty div with 50% width with 0 computed width, anyway to fix it? http://jsfiddle.net/hKtWM/
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  225. # [10:13] <annevk> "The first highlight is that this is a trinity of technologies which exists in a state of symbiosis."
  226. # [10:14] <annevk> why do people not right straightforward text for change proposals? http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Cjones/ISSUE-195
  227. # [10:14] <annevk> you'd think they're written to convince people, not bore them
  228. # [10:16] <annevk> oh wow
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  230. # [10:16] <annevk> ISSUE-195 does not consider the security issues at all
  231. # [10:16] <annevk> and makes the attack surface surprisingly larger
  232. # [10:16] <annevk> well nobody will implement that
  233. # [10:16] <jgraham> annevk: The only people still reading public-html have a very high boredom threshold
  234. # [10:17] <jgraham> So it's not really surprising if they themselves write boring proposals
  235. # [10:17] <annevk> ISSUE-195 compares the security implications with XHR, which works completely differently from form submission
  236. # [10:18] <annevk> this does show that nobody of interest is following public-html, indeed
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  240. # [10:30] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11960#c19 bah
  241. # [10:34] <zcorpan> annevk: we have e.g. TextTrack which doesn't have anything to do with Text node
  242. # [10:36] <zcorpan> String seems to not make sense for one of encode/decode
  243. # [10:36] <annevk> yeah mkay
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  245. # [10:37] <annevk> I argued for just having Encoder/Decoder
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  247. # [10:37] <zcorpan> that wfm
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  249. # [10:46] <jgraham> annevk: I lost the thread of that conversation
  250. # [10:46] <jgraham> I object if you want to have encoder/decoder objects even for the non-streaming case
  251. # [10:46] <jgraham> The non-streaming case should be String.prototype.encode(encoding) and ArrayBuffer[View].prototype.decode(encoding)
  252. # [10:47] <zcorpan> niloy: which browser?
  253. # [10:47] <annevk> jgraham: why offer two APIs that do almost the same thing?
  254. # [10:48] <jgraham> Having to create encoder objects for the simple case is crasy-overhead
  255. # [10:48] <jgraham> *crazy
  256. # [10:48] <annevk> given how often you need it, it seems not that much overhead to me
  257. # [10:48] <jgraham> No need to sell out the common case because of the rare case
  258. # [10:49] <annevk> both are pretty rare I think
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  260. # [10:50] <jgraham> Well not on the web I need to encode/decode quite often. And I have never needed to use a streaming decoder. And I would be horrified at such a java-like API
  261. # [10:50] <jgraham> Having to construct an object to call one method on it, once is just nasty
  262. # [10:51] <jgraham> That means the code is 50% boilerplate!
  263. # [10:52] <Velmont> jgraham: js is not python, -- don't think you'd do encode/decode as much as in Python (which is every second line there :P)
  264. # [10:52] <annevk> really? I never encode/decode in Python
  265. # [10:52] <jgraham> It's not every second line, but it is quite often at IO boundaries
  266. # [10:53] <jgraham> The web platform so far has done that automatically
  267. # [10:53] <jgraham> But increasingly it won't
  268. # [10:53] <jgraham> as people send stuff over binary websockets, for example
  269. # [10:54] <Velmont> annevk: have to decode everything you take in, -- and encode everything you output.
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  271. # [10:58] <annevk> Velmont: I guess I always use the default of open()
  272. # [10:59] <Velmont> in.decode('utf-8') <do text processing> out.encode('utf-8')
  273. # [10:59] <Velmont> annevk: Maybe you don't manipulate the text you read in?
  274. # [10:59] <jgraham> Maybe your programs aren't non-ascii-safe
  275. # [10:59] <Velmont> I at least gets loads of spurious exceptions if I don't do that, -- only for non-ascii stuff though. Which I do quite a lot of so :]
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  277. # [11:00] <jgraham> (it is sadly quite easy to be non-ascii-safe in Python 2. Fixing this is part of the point of Python 3)
  278. # [11:00] <annevk> yeah dunno really, I guess I mostly read ASCII stuff in, write bytes out
  279. # [11:00] <annevk> the last couple of weeks anyway
  280. # [11:00] <jgraham> Umm, missing a negative there
  281. # [11:00] <annevk> or use some kind of JSON serializer stuff
  282. # [11:02] <annevk> jgraham: but euh, I guess say so on the list
  283. # [11:02] <annevk> oh you did
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  286. # [11:05] <Velmont> Hmmm. Opera does <sup>text</sup> as an item when findNodes(".//text()")
  287. # [11:06] <Velmont> and that doesn't support bla.data
  288. # [11:06] <jgraham> Huh?
  289. # [11:07] <Velmont> jgraham: respec.js throws in Opera, -- the idb spec doesn't work because of it.
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  291. # [11:07] <Velmont> jgraham: Trying to find out why. -- And found it. -- But now I need to find out what that xpath thingy should do.
  292. # [11:08] <Velmont> Is <sup>bla</sup> a textNode? Or should it rather take only the "bla"?
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  294. # [11:08] <jgraham> Only the bla
  295. # [11:09] <Velmont> jgraham: So, bug then.
  296. # [11:09] <jgraham> I am pretty surprised if this is broken
  297. # [11:09] <jgraham> But it could be ofc
  298. # [11:10] <zcorpan> wasn't xpath supposed to be perfect? :-)
  299. # [11:10] <annevk> I think the problem in Opera is that it interprets the XPath specification literally
  300. # [11:11] <annevk> Velmont: try running document.normalize() before the XPath runs
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  302. # [11:12] <Velmont> annevk: Yes, not my code, it's respec.js that isn't working in Opera. Always irritated me but haven't looked at it until now.
  303. # [11:12] <Velmont> annevk: But I found such a reference now, yes.
  304. # [11:13] <Velmont> The others have ignored the xpath spec there, -- and Opera following gets all the problems for doing that :P
  305. # [11:14] <annevk> well the problem is the intersection of XPath and DOM really
  306. # [11:14] <annevk> DOM allows multiple Text nodes
  307. # [11:14] <annevk> XPath assumes a tree model that doesn't
  308. # [11:14] <annevk> everyone else was like lets modify XPath to suit the DOM and I guess jl tried the opposite
  309. # [11:18] <Velmont> annevk: OK, it was fixed in Opera next actually. I tried that already, but it was so slow that I thought it didn't work. But idb spec is always like that on this slow computer.
  310. # [11:19] <annevk> respec's lack of incremental display is annoying
  311. # [11:19] <annevk> well, I think respec in general is annoying
  312. # [11:20] <Velmont> It's very annoying. It should render to HTML and save that.
  313. # [11:20] <Velmont> So much faster.
  314. # [11:20] <annevk> it encourages the old-style DOM spec writing which is terrible
  315. # [11:20] <zcorpan> respec is responsible for that?
  316. # [11:21] <Velmont> What is difference between old and new? New is more algorithmic?
  317. # [11:22] <zcorpan> old has all these useless <dl>s
  318. # [11:26] <zcorpan> matjas, hasather: incorrect
  319. # [11:27] <zcorpan> name and nmchar aren't tokens :-)
  320. # [11:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not tokens in the HTML sense or not tokens in the general sense?
  321. # [11:32] <hasather> hsivonen: CSS
  322. # [11:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not tokens in CSS
  323. # [11:32] <hasather> zcorpan: could it be DIMENSION?
  324. # [11:32] <zcorpan> hasather: bingo
  325. # [11:33] <hasather> yatzy!
  326. # [11:33] <hsivonen> I wonder if 10 weeks from new Chrome has surpassed IE on StatCounter...
  327. # [11:36] <annevk> Velmont: yes and less <dl> with stuff like "Exceptions:" "none" etc.
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  332. # [11:52] <annevk> so aklein said this yesterday: "annevk: good morning. re your question yesterday about transient observers, they do need to be added everywhere you remove the children of the DocumentFragment (to each child of the fragment if the fragment has subtree observers)"
  333. # [11:52] <annevk> but that already happens
  334. # [11:52] <annevk> per the remove algorithm that is invoked for each child of the fragment
  335. # [11:53] <annevk> I could still do the simplification however
  336. # [11:59] <annevk> should warnings really be normative? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16418
  337. # [12:00] <zcorpan> annevk: why not?
  338. # [12:01] <annevk> it seems confusing to have normative statements in call out boxes
  339. # [12:01] <annevk> to me they seem more like "pay special attention to" or "see also"
  340. # [12:04] <jgraham> Indeed, I don't see how a warning can be normative
  341. # [12:05] <jgraham> Although I guess allowing SHOULD level statements aimed at users in warnings makes some sense
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  345. # [12:08] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#plugins has should in a warning
  346. # [12:09] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/fetching-resources.html#encrypted-http-and-related-security-concerns too
  347. # [12:10] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element has a may
  348. # [12:11] <zcorpan> and a must not
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  350. # [12:12] <zcorpan> etc
  351. # [12:13] <zcorpan> though if people don't treat warnings as normative, i guess that's a problem
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  353. # [12:14] <annevk> Velmont: fixed your CORS stuff
  354. # [12:14] <annevk> Velmont: found another potential issue because of it :/
  355. # [12:14] <annevk> Velmont: the Access-Control-Allow-Origin syntax, but not going to fix that until HTTP is more stable
  356. # [12:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think warnings should, in general be statements of fact.
  357. # [12:15] <jgraham> Sometimes they seem to follow the fact/requirement to mitigate effect of fact pattern
  358. # [12:15] <jgraham> which is OK. Although it could be nice if the requirement was seperate from the warning
  359. # [12:15] <jgraham> But maybe that would be hard to read
  360. # [12:17] <annevk> i'm pretty happy the DOM spec does not have to deal with mutation events (for now)
  361. # [12:17] <annevk> (and hopefully forever)
  362. # [12:17] <annevk> sounds like that's complicated
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  364. # [12:26] <Velmont> annevk: is http unstable? :P
  365. # [12:31] <zcorpan> priorities: photoshop supports really awesome and complex things like content aware move, but doesn't do basic stuff like proper alpha in PNG8 or optimizing PNG
  366. # [12:32] <Velmont> I always get totally set out when trying Photoshop again coming from Gimp, -- it lacks LOADS of basic stuff.
  367. # [12:35] * jgraham has fallen into a parallel universe
  368. # [12:38] <jgraham> I don't use photoshop or GIMP much but when I did I was way more interested in non-destructive adjustment layers (super useful for photo editing) than PNG optimisation (useless for photo editing).
  369. # [12:38] <jgraham> So what is "basic" might depend on your task
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  371. # [12:39] <zcorpan> i meant basic in terms of impl complexity
  372. # [12:40] <annevk> Velmont: httpbis is
  373. # [12:40] <jgraham> Possibly. Doesn't seem the best metric to use since easy to implement might also mean "easy to make as a plugin or third-party tool")
  374. # [12:40] <Velmont> jgraham: Well, -- the stuff I'm talking about is making a precise selection. Gimp allows you to change your selection. So you can zoom in, fix the selection, - zoom out, zoom in on new place, fix selection. -- Photoshop doesn't allow that.
  375. # [12:40] <annevk> and they don't do living standard at the IETF so it's taking fricking ages before I can update stuff
  376. # [12:49] <zcorpan> https://twitter.com/#!/glazou/status/182787715337691137
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  393. # [13:24] <Velmont> jgraham: BTW, any comments on the new pull request change? https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/pull/1
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  398. # [13:30] <jgraham> Does github really not let you see squashed commits when doing review?
  399. # [13:30] <Velmont> jgraham: Yes
  400. # [13:31] <jgraham> It really doesn't
  401. # [13:31] <jgraham> ?
  402. # [13:31] <Velmont> https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/pull/1/files << just click diff
  403. # [13:31] <Velmont> jgraham: Yes it does
  404. # [13:31] <Velmont> (allow you to see it squashed)
  405. # [13:31] <Velmont> I just want to squash it later so that the history is all nice.
  406. # [13:32] <jgraham> Oh I see you can see the whole thing squashed or one commit at a time
  407. # [13:41] <jgraham> Velmont: Made some comments
  408. # [13:41] <Velmont> ook ^^ :-)
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  410. # [13:45] <annevk> meh
  411. # [13:45] <annevk> forgot hg pull
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  413. # [13:47] <annevk> ms2ger: we still have multiple heads
  414. # [13:47] <annevk> ms2ger: some silly WD draft is there, dunno how to remove it from heads
  415. # [13:47] <annevk> ms2ger: because my knowledge of version control is limited to making changes :p
  416. # [13:48] <Velmont> jgraham: Hmm. Any idea on a better name? Thought about legacy, - but it's actually an legacy_to_new mapping, and we're getting the new name gotten from the legacy name.
  417. # [13:51] <jgraham> Velmont: I would use legacy_code and dom4_type or something rather than overloading the code variable
  418. # [13:51] <jgraham> Dunno that I like the "4"
  419. # [13:52] <jgraham> dom_ls_I_mean_living_standard_not_load_and_save_type is a bit long to type though
  420. # [13:53] <jgraham> Maybe just code and type is enough?
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  422. # [13:54] <annevk> what does assert_throws look like today again?
  423. # [13:55] <Velmont> Hmmm. code is already NETWORK_ERR or NetworkError.
  424. # [13:55] <Velmont> I don't really want the tmp there at all, -- but I found no way to do it without it.
  425. # [13:56] <jgraham> Velmont: Right, that's what I'm saying. Can't you seperate out the two concepts entirely?
  426. # [13:57] <jgraham> Rather than having one variable that could be the old thing or could be the new thing
  427. # [13:57] <Velmont> I don't need the legacy mapping other than just getting the new one.
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  430. # [14:09] <annevk> ok I think I hit my public-html quota for the month
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  434. # [14:13] <Velmont> jgraham: if (newstyle_code !== undefined) code = newstyle_code;
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  436. # [14:15] <Ms3ger> annevk: those heads are fine
  437. # [14:15] <annevk> Ms3ger--
  438. # [14:15] <annevk> Ms3ger: it's annoying if I have to chose a head when merging (the -- was to fix your name btw)
  439. # [14:16] <Ms3ger> Remind me to look at closing them tonight?
  440. # [14:16] <annevk> sure
  441. # [14:17] <annevk> if I remember that is
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  445. # [14:27] <Velmont> Ms3ger, jgraham: Just pushed a new try at adressing your review. Admittedly not radically changed :P But still very open to good variable names.
  446. # [14:27] <Ms3ger> Velmont: haven't looked yet, I may be able to tonight or tomorrow
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  452. # [14:37] <annevk> removing the Issues section from DOM fwiw
  453. # [14:37] <annevk> I filed two bugs
  454. # [14:37] <annevk> likely both WONTFIX
  455. # [14:40] <Velmont> Bah bah. -- Anyone know why my test isn't working? http://test.s0.no/idb/extra/idbfactory_open-transaction-lifetime.htm -- IndexedDB, I'm getting the second onupgradeneeded event, but not the second onsuccess. Seems to maybe be a bug in Firefox.
  456. # [14:43] <smaug____> Velmont: trying to ping some moz IDB devs
  457. # [14:43] <smaug____> but bad time..
  458. # [14:44] <smaug____> it is quite early in California
  459. # [14:44] <Velmont> smaug____: But it might be a bug in my test, -- but I've used so much time that I can't see clearly anymore. :P
  460. # [14:44] <Velmont> smaug____: Pulling up the console logs some debug information.
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  463. # [14:54] <Velmont> OMG, so my fault.
  464. # [14:54] <Velmont> I had written openrq2.success instead of openrq2.onsuccess. Typical "stared too long at this" bug.
  465. # [14:55] <Velmont> Beautiful, it runs as expected. PHew.
  466. # [15:05] <Velmont> Oh, instead of using lots of time loading the respec.js version of the spec; I found a great solution, -- just save the page as html, and it's instant loading in all browsers. :]
  467. # [15:06] <smaug____> annevk: so transient variable just flags some observers to be transient
  468. # [15:06] <smaug____> do you use transient variable somewhere?
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  470. # [15:10] <smaug____> annevk: I think I prefer transient observers over transient variable
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  474. # [15:14] <annevk> smaug____: I don't use it explicitly anywhere indeed
  475. # [15:15] <annevk> smaug____: I think I prefer the same
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  477. # [15:17] <smaug____> in my mind I still think observers and transient observers as a way to select a possibly expanding set of nodes, and listen mutations in that set
  478. # [15:18] <annevk> well that's what happens
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  483. # [15:34] <annevk> I wonder if the ES6 work around classes can make stuff like EventReceiver unneeded...
  484. # [15:37] <smaug____> annevk: what you mean?
  485. # [15:37] <smaug____> EventTarget needs to be somewhere in the event target chain
  486. # [15:37] <smaug____> and I expect that EventTarget needs to be a host object because of that
  487. # [15:38] <smaug____> at least, I would prefer that
  488. # [15:41] <annevk> they have ideas about letting user objects inherit from host objects in some way
  489. # [15:41] <annevk> at least Alex Russell does
  490. # [15:41] <annevk> have to see how that goes I guess
  491. # [15:42] <annevk> anyway, got to go, my brother is about to present his CD
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  509. # [16:31] <EricPreisz> Quick question...my background is in game development and specifically optimization of 3D game engines(~10 years)...I'm interested in canvas and I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if there is an open source project that is specifically focused on an optimized renderer. I'd like to help out if I can.
  510. # [16:32] <jgraham> There are several projects that aim to build game libraries on top of 2D/3D canvas. But I don't know much about them
  511. # [16:33] <EricPreisz> No, I'm not looking to build libraries on top, I'm looking to build the render piece that would execute those libraries. Seems like there are a lot of HTML5 game libraries out there.
  512. # [16:34] <EricPreisz> If anything...I'd do it just to set benchmarks for what sort of performance we can expect to be implemented.
  513. # [16:35] <EricPreisz> I found this big list of HTML5 game engiens/libs. https://github.com/bebraw/jswiki/wiki/Game-Engines
  514. # [16:35] <jgraham> Hmm, maybe I am revealing my ignorance about graphics programming then :) What level were you expecting to work at? The actual browser implementations?
  515. # [16:35] <EricPreisz> Yea
  516. # [16:37] <jgraham> Oh well in that case there is http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/320/ or WebKit or Gecko to hack on. I think everyone is focused on making their implementations optimised since it has a big effect on some web sites
  517. # [16:37] <jgraham> I don't really know anything more sepcific than that
  518. # [16:37] * jgraham probably isn't the right person to help
  519. # [16:38] <EricPreisz> I've put a lot of time into the topic ;) (shameless plug:http://www.amazon.com/Video-Game-Optimization-Eric-Preisz/dp/1598634356)
  520. # [16:39] <EricPreisz> But yea, I would like to work on a library that any browser implementation could use.
  521. # [16:40] <EricPreisz> I know very little about writing a browser or browswer engine...but I do know a lot about rendering. Thanks for the answer though!
  522. # [16:40] <jgraham> Hmm, I am having difficulty imagining what such a library would look like. AFAIK there isn't much shared code in this area
  523. # [16:41] <jgraham> Even different WebKit consumers use different gfx libraries
  524. # [16:42] <jgraham> (hence the myth of "-webkit" means "same code" — but that's an aside)
  525. # [16:44] <EricPreisz> On my quick searches, that's what I'm finding as well. But I think that there would be some value in a consolidated renderer. There's a popular open source renderer for the game industry and it's used by a lot of people for prototyping...it's not really to a professional standard for rendering though.
  526. # [16:46] <Philip`> High-performance browser-based games will probably want to use WebGL instead of 2D canvas, and then I don't think the browser itself will have much influence on rendering performance (since it's basically just passing calls through to the system's graphics drivers)
  527. # [16:46] <Philip`> The more important part is probably the JS code that people write to run on top of the browsers, and the browsers' JS engines and other related APIs (typed arrays etc)
  528. # [16:49] <EricPreisz> How you pass calls to the graphics driver is where all the performance is. Passing data one call at a time is what makes graphics slow. I'm sure that JS will be a bottleneck too, but if you think of a resolution that is 800x600...that's 480,000 pixels...that's a lot of work. Graphics will be a big consumer of resources. There's no reason that canvas couldn't be as fast as WebGL...plus the
  529. # [16:49] <EricPreisz> audience of developers for canvas will probably be many times bigger than WebGL.
  530. # [16:50] <Philip`> WebGL *is* canvas :-)
  531. # [16:50] <Philip`> (though independent from the older 2D canvas context)
  532. # [16:51] <EricPreisz> Is the older 2D canvas going to go away?
  533. # [16:51] <jgraham> No
  534. # [16:51] <charlvn> this i a really awesome job: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/239/
  535. # [16:51] <Philip`> No, though people who care significantly about performance might migrate to JS libraries that are built on top of WebGL
  536. # [16:51] <EricPreisz> From what I understand, they both render to a canvas, no? I'm not sure if they both share a graphics device or not.
  537. # [16:52] <charlvn> (not like i am going to apply, am perfectly happy with my current job, but if that was not the case)
  538. # [16:52] <jgraham> charlvn: I can say with great confidence that it is indeed an awesome job
  539. # [16:53] <Philip`> Some implementations of the 2D context are software renderers (via Cairo, Skia, etc), but I think newer implementations do hardware acceleration (via Direct2D, custom libraries built on top of OpenGL, etc)
  540. # [16:53] <zcorpan> EricPreisz: ask emoller@opera.com (our game developer guy)
  541. # [16:55] <EricPreisz> Oh...small world...Erik actually reviewed my book on his real time rendering site...Thanks!
  542. # [16:55] <EricPreisz> I had no clue.
  543. # [16:56] <zcorpan> cool
  544. # [17:01] <zcorpan> EricPreisz: i think opera wants more gfx developers -- if this is something you want to work with, maybe apply for the job (and reference Simon Pieters and I'll get a candy if you get the job) :-)
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  546. # [17:04] <EricPreisz> Hrm...that's tempting...I've been sucked into a business role for the past couple of years...I'm getting rusty. ;) I run a game engine company now and one of our biggest issues is a great browser solution for our engines. We did the plug-in thing starting back in '06 and we stopped in '09....
  547. # [17:04] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  548. # [17:08] <jgraham> Well, at risk of turning this into #opera-jobs, we are always looking for top-quality developers and gfx is obviously a big growth area for browsers these days
  549. # [17:09] <EricPreisz> Oh...ops...I confused Erik Moller w/ Tomas Moller & Eric Haines...the authors of Real Time Rendering...I don't think I've met Erik M before...
  550. # [17:09] <jgraham> Heh
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  569. # [18:05] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  570. # [18:09] <Philip`> Good morning, dglazkov!
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  583. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> So I guess now I should start on rewriting all my transforms reftests to meet CSSWG guidelines.
  584. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> That's about . . . 345 files.
  585. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
  586. # [18:35] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  587. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> I wish I could just do Gecko hacking instead.
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  597. # [18:48] * AryehGregor hates unnecessarily complicated tests
  598. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> I'm responsible for quite a few complicated tests myself, but not unnecessarily so.
  599. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> They just test a lot.
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  602. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Yay, CKEditor doesn't use element.all anymore
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  605. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Wait, so CSSWG tests need to be under the BSD *3*-clause license?
  606. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  607. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> That's okay.
  608. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> It's the four-clause license that's evil.
  609. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> Yep
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  612. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, so what are some more bugs I should fix when I have time?
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  614. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> Are you interested in canvas? :)
  615. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> Because Philip` doesn't seem to feel like updating his tests
  616. # [19:13] * Philip` gets distracted too easily :-(
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  618. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> No, I'm not really interested in graphics stuff.
  619. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> DOM stuff is more fun.
  620. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> A test suite for DOM4? ^.^
  621. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> I was thinking more like Gecko bugs. A test suite for DOM4 would be pretty awesome, though.
  622. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll ask to work on that once I'm done with transforms.
  623. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> That way I won't have to deal with the CSSWG more than necessary. \o/
  624. # [19:20] <zcorpan> hmm, seems like webkit doesn't pollute the global scope in xhtml
  625. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> Hmm
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  627. # [19:21] <niloy> I have a div with some checkbox, I want to close the div when user clicks outside the div, so I have put tabindex -1 on it and set focus on it, then attached a blur event which closes the div, the problem is blur is called even when user clicks on checkboxes inside the div, anyway to fix this in FF? chromes seems to handle it nicely
  628. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, bug 578632 makes me think it's probably worthwhile to review the HTMLCollection implementations and namedItem("foo") / ["foo"], in case that's something you feel like doing
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  635. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, I was thinking of Gecko hacking, for the moment.
  636. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> Hmm, you know . . .
  637. # [19:27] * AryehGregor looks back at his contract
  638. # [19:28] <AryehGregor> Actually, how about I try doing an editing patch or two?
  639. # [19:28] <jgraham> Oooh, I know this one
  640. # [19:29] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Down that path lies madness
  641. # [19:29] <AryehGregor> So everyone says!
  642. # [19:31] <jgraham> But you're not going to let the suspiciously-human-looking bones littering the path put you off?
  643. # [19:31] <smaug____> AryehGregor: you look at your contract what you should be doing o_O
  644. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> smaug____, ?
  645. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> My contract says various things. And I've spoken with my manager-person too.
  646. # [19:32] * smaug____ has managed to do whatever he does for 6 years without looking what the contract says :)
  647. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> So I'm pretty sure I'm good.
  648. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> They seem not to care too much as long as I'm doing Gecko-y stuff.
  649. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> You're a contractor?
  650. # [19:32] <smaug____> yes
  651. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> smaug____, does your contract say something about reviewing already? :)
  652. # [19:33] <smaug____> Ms2ger: might be
  653. # [19:33] <smaug____> AryehGregor: just because some silly bureaucracy issues
  654. # [19:34] <smaug____> I would be an employee if I lived in Sweden
  655. # [19:35] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: i know, you could drop some quirks :-)
  656. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> Where do you live?
  657. # [19:35] <jgraham> Mozilla disagree with Monty Python about the merits of Finland?
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  680. # [20:47] <annevk> aklein: my idea was to just say "A transient registered observer is a specific registered observer." and let the rest flow from how it's used
  681. # [20:48] <annevk> aklein: I'm also going to rename it to transient registered observer to make the relationship more clear (and set it more apart from just "observer" which is a property of it)
  682. # [20:49] <annevk> ideally we have a different name that does not have "observer" in it for "registered observer" but I have not been able to think of anything :/
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  688. # [20:55] <smaug____> annevk: what problem are you trying to solve ?
  689. # [20:56] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  690. # [20:56] <annevk> "the chairs have decided to defer the publication from Tuesday March 27th to Thursday March 29th" mwahahaha
  691. # [20:56] <annevk> smaug____: we have a concept called "registered observer" that consists of among other things an "observer"
  692. # [20:57] <annevk> smaug____: I'd rather they are named somewhat more distinct
  693. # [20:57] <annevk> have*
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  695. # [21:14] <annevk> zcorpan: seems you were right
  696. # [21:14] <annevk> maybe we should start a pool on the publication date
  697. # [21:14] <annevk> I'll put 10 down for next month
  698. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> I bet we can publish DOM4 earlier
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  702. # [21:29] <annevk> smaug____: aklein: I now inlined the appending and removed the transient variable: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-remove
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  711. # [22:18] <sicking> annevk: i believe the only way we can get rid of the global namespace polluter is to change the spec. I don't believe I can convince IE otherwise
  712. # [22:19] <sicking> annevk: OTOH, I haven't been successful in convincing hixie to change the spec, so here we are :(
  713. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> sicking, and Hixie won't change the spec before IE drops it
  714. # [22:19] <sicking> Ms2ger: your guess is as good as mine
  715. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> Well, he said so in the bug, didn't he?
  716. # [22:20] <sicking> not exactly that no
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  718. # [22:24] <annevk> sicking: is there a bug report on WebKit?
  719. # [22:24] <annevk> did anyone file one on Opera?
  720. # [22:24] <annevk> I can't find one
  721. # [22:24] <annevk> my opinion has always been we should align with Gecko here, but I never actually followed through to see if we had a bug report and everything, it only comes up every so often
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  724. # [22:25] <Ms2ger> Former Gecko, I suppose you mean
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  726. # [22:26] <annevk> I guess I should have included the pedantic note I was thinking of in my had about excluding today...
  727. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> :)
  728. # [22:27] <annevk> head even*
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  730. # [22:28] <Hixie> sicking: which bug is this? i'm usually all about doing what the implementors are doing.
  731. # [22:28] <sicking> Hixie: yup, you were here too
  732. # [22:28] <Hixie> k :-)
  733. # [22:28] <sicking> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11960
  734. # [22:28] <sicking> Hixie: except you went with the implementations that does something that's IMO much worse for the web
  735. # [22:29] <sicking> i.e. much more likely to create buggy pages
  736. # [22:29] <jgraham> FWIW I think the global scope polluter is evil, but I would be against us removing it in Opera
  737. # [22:29] <jgraham> Because it would hurt compat
  738. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> jgraham, how about making it quirks-only?
  739. # [22:30] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Or making it quirks-only
  740. # [22:30] <Ms2ger> Boo
  741. # [22:30] <Hixie> sicking: i think what i wrote in comment 15 is reasonable. (in particular, i think you would ask no less of me if you were in microsoft's position and they in yours.)
  742. # [22:30] <jgraham> Yeah, it sucks, but so does breaking sites
  743. # [22:31] <roc> why would sites that aren't broken in Gecko break in Opera?
  744. # [22:31] <jgraham> roc: Sites are broken in gecko
  745. # [22:31] <Ms2ger> Google and Microsoft-sponsored demos are, mostly
  746. # [22:31] <sicking> Hixie: I just disagee with you. But now much I could do here beyond that. Reaching out to MS is clearly not fruitful if they are aware of the discussion
  747. # [22:32] <roc> what sites? This is not the breakage I've seen in any of the broken demos I've looked at
  748. # [22:32] <jgraham> Maybe, but people seem to think that demos are something other than marketing fluff carefully designed to break other browsers
  749. # [22:32] <sicking> Hixie: it's too long ago that I don't remember if webkit folks are aware of the issue. I imagine that I had talked to them at the time yes
  750. # [22:32] <jgraham> (note: I'm not actually cynical enough to think that all demos are like that)
  751. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> Of course not, Mozilla's aren't :)
  752. # [22:33] <Hixie> sicking: IE isn't the only browser here, it might well be easier to convince opera and webkit
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  754. # [22:33] <Hixie> sicking: i'm not sure what you disagree with me on here, my opinion on the matter really isn't a driving factor here.
  755. # [22:33] <sicking> Hixie: anne was aware of the issue as he commented in the bug. I strongly suspect webkit was too
  756. # [22:33] <sicking> Hixie: that's the part i disagree with you about
  757. # [22:34] <Hixie> sicking: you disagree with my opinion that my opinion isn't a driving factor? :-)
  758. # [22:34] <sicking> Hixie: changing the spec would likely have changed both webkit and IE in the long term
  759. # [22:34] <sicking> Hixie: yes
  760. # [22:34] <Hixie> if my opinion was a driving factor we'd have removed the misfeature entirely
  761. # [22:34] <annevk> me being aware of it doesn't mean you should not file a bug on Opera btw
  762. # [22:34] <Hixie> i hate this namespace polution crap
  763. # [22:34] <sicking> Hixie: and yet the spec isn't changed
  764. # [22:35] <sicking> Hixie: so i don't know what factual basis you have for that statement
  765. # [22:35] <Hixie> like i said, the spec isn't driven by my opinion here
  766. # [22:35] <sicking> annevk: yeah, point taken
  767. # [22:35] <sicking> Hixie: like i said, i disagree
  768. # [22:35] <sicking> Hixie: well.. i disagree that you changing the spec wouldn't have changed the landscape here
  769. # [22:35] <Hixie> you disagree on with me about what my opinion is? o_O
  770. # [22:36] <sicking> Hixie: sorry, i put it poorly
  771. # [22:36] <sicking> Hixie: you seem to be of the opinion that changing the spec wouldn't have changed implementations. I disagree with that assertion
  772. # [22:36] <annevk> might Gecko still revert that change?
  773. # [22:37] <sicking> annevk: i imagine that if we can get word from google and opera that they will change, that we'd revert yes
  774. # [22:37] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
  775. # [22:37] <annevk> ok, I'll file a bug on Opera
  776. # [22:37] <Hixie> sicking: ah, well, you could be right on that, sure. i don't think it's likely though. in my experience if a browser vendor says "we won't do that, it's too much of a compat cost" then me changing the spec anyway just leads to them dismissing the entire spec more.
  777. # [22:37] <sicking> annevk: ideally also from safari
  778. # [22:37] <annevk> see what happens
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  780. # [22:43] <annevk> filed a bug on Opera
  781. # [22:43] <annevk> ref is CORE-45289
  782. # [22:44] <annevk> is there one on WebKit?
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  810. # [23:33] <Hixie> i keep writing "hit region list" as "region hit list"
  811. # [23:33] <Hixie> not the same thing.
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  819. # [23:49] <Hixie> woot, hit addHitRegion() is now almost entirely specced. The only parts missing are the parts that make it useful.
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  825. # Session Close: Fri Mar 23 00:00:02 2012

The end :)