/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 26 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [01:27] <zewt> can the world stop pretending that big endian is still a thing
  24. # [01:27] <zewt> optimizing for little endian is: perfectly okay
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  87. # [06:44] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#hit-regions opinions?
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  96. # [07:14] <Hixie> zewt: network byte order is big-endian...
  97. # [07:19] <Hixie> hober: in case the chairs did give you the extension you asked for, addHitRegion() is in now. r7029.
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  133. # [10:33] * hsivonen wonders what kind of hoops one would have to jump through to obtain a big-endian device that has a WebGL-enabled Presto build on it
  134. # [10:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Buy a TV, I think.
  135. # [10:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders: but which TV?
  136. # [10:36] * Joins: [[zz]] (~q@182.53.55.94)
  137. # [10:37] <karlcow> hsivonen: http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2011/01/19/
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  139. # [10:38] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I'm unsure whether we can disclose information about our partner's hardware.
  140. # [10:38] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok. that's what I expected
  141. # [10:39] <gsnedders> Though if we ship with Typed Arrays, it's black-box observable anyway.
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  143. # [10:39] <hsivonen> so telling a Web developer to test BE is basically telling them to go buy a TV and it's up to them to figure out which one
  144. # [10:39] <hsivonen> yeah, that'll work
  145. # [10:39] <karlcow> there is also http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2012/03/19_2/
  146. # [10:40] <gsnedders> Apparently there are BE MIPS phones coming soon.
  147. # [10:40] <karlcow> "Opera TV browser with WebGL™ support are now available for MIPS-based DTVs, set-top boxes and other digital home devices."
  148. # [10:41] <hsivonen> I wonder how many months it will take Opera to decide to make ArrayBuffers on BE systems behave to scripts as if they were LE and burn cycles for byteswapped copies when passed to the GPU...
  149. # [10:42] <hsivonen> I don't see any realistic way to stop Web authors from publishing code that assumes that ArrayBuffers are LE
  150. # [10:44] <gsnedders> hsivonen: More practically, I wonder if we could get out a copy of mobile emulator running within QEMU
  151. # [10:44] <gsnedders> But likely that requires someone to care.
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  153. # [10:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Perhaps a more telling sign is nobody has reported a bug yet down to WebGL and endianness
  154. # [10:54] <jgraham> I thought there were MIPS tablets shipping in China (probably without presto though). Perhaps some of those are BE?
  155. # [10:54] <gsnedders> I believe (almost?) all LE.
  156. # [10:59] <jgraham> Anyway, the advice to test on BE systems is clearly bogus and makes quite a good indicator for whether someone has thought enough about the problem
  157. # [11:00] <gsnedders> Does anyone have a nice, simple TC that gives big/little endian as a result?
  158. # [11:03] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I presume I can say fine that to my knowledge only one major TV OEM still produces BE hardware.
  159. # [11:05] <gsnedders> (And as far as I'm aware, we currently do not ship mobile on any BE hardware)
  160. # [11:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah. It's worrying that the Khronos WG didn't have a mechanism for stopping blatant non-Web-safeness like this
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  162. # [11:12] <gsnedders> hsivonen: As far as I can tell, apart from some talk from TC39 when it was talked about moving the spec there, nobody within the Khronos WG saw it as an issue.
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  171. # [11:36] <nonge> the spec says about favicon.ico: "user agents may instead attempt to fetch and use an icon with the absolute URL obtained by resolving the URL "/favicon.ico" against the document's address" … I'm not sure: when the document has the url <example.com/foo/bar.html>, should the UA look for <example.com/foo/favicon.ico> or <example.com/favicon.ico>?
  172. # [11:37] <gsnedders> nonge: resolving /favicon.ico against http://example.com/foo/bar.html results in http://example.com/favicon.ico
  173. # [11:38] <nonge> gsnedders, ah great. thank you
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  194. # [13:03] <annevk> zcorpan: you can also look for self[x]
  195. # [13:03] <annevk> zcorpan: and frames[x]
  196. # [13:04] <annevk> zcorpan: but I think the more problematic part is when people do var x = test.innerHTML or some such where "test" is a reference to the element in question
  197. # [13:04] <annevk> zcorpan: see e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cscript%20id%3Dx%3Ew(x)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  198. # [13:06] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't think self[id] and frames[id] is more common than window[id] for lookup of non-framed elements
  199. # [13:06] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't know how to search for x without getting 99% noise :-)
  200. # [13:06] <annevk> but that is what people will likely use :/
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  202. # [13:07] <zcorpan> yeah
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  240. # [15:30] <GPHemsley> FYI: Filed Mozilla bug 739203; if Mozilla has implemented the HTML5 parser correctly, it may be a spec bug
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  242. # [15:33] <zewt> Hixie: the format of ip packets isn't really relevant; big endian cpus shouldn't be a serious consideration in api design today
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  246. # [15:34] <zewt> (and any new binary-format protocols should also be little-endian)
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  253. # [15:38] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: why would it be a spec bug? the color of tags in view source is entirely a UI thing
  254. # [15:38] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: I said *may*; if the parser algorithm is involved, there's a possibility
  255. # [15:38] <GPHemsley> that's all
  256. # [15:38] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: though i think this is a known bug. (dunno if it was actually filed in bugzilla though)
  257. # [15:39] <GPHemsley> well, it is now :)
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  259. # [15:39] <zcorpan> hsivonen mentions it in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/view-source/
  260. # [15:44] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: thanks, but it was a duplicate
  261. # [15:45] <hsivonen> coloring the script end tag is considerably harder than coloring other tags
  262. # [15:45] <GPHemsley> ah, ok
  263. # [15:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the tooltip for "<a class=foohref="foo">" has probably cause three times
  264. # [15:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: one per line, though, right?
  265. # [15:46] <hsivonen> per line in the tooltip that is
  266. # [15:46] <zcorpan> oh, it's several errors
  267. # [15:47] <hsivonen> anyway, I opted to color the script end tag wrong in order to get the patch landed some time
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  269. # [15:47] <hsivonen> turns out people pay attention to it :-(
  270. # [15:47] <GPHemsley> :)
  271. # [15:49] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: So why is it hard to color?
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  273. # [15:51] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: the tokenizer doesn't go through enough state transitions to have transitions where the color scheme has color transitions, IIRC
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  275. # [15:52] <hsivonen> could be fixed by adding more states to the tokenizer and making the syntax highlighter remember the run that covers "script" in case that run ends up participating in an end tag
  276. # [15:52] <hsivonen> or I suppose it could be fixed by some kind of post-processing hack
  277. # [15:53] <hsivonen> might actually be easier to do a post-processing hack
  278. # [15:53] <zcorpan> that's my first throught :-)
  279. # [15:53] <hsivonen> better not touch *those* tokenizer states
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  297. # [15:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: known that view source doesn't work for data: url pages?
  298. # [15:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: huh? it's supposed to work
  299. # [15:57] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: WFM
  300. # [15:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: WFM
  301. # [15:57] <zcorpan> 13.0a1 (2012-03-07)
  302. # [15:57] <zcorpan> data:text/html,foobar
  303. # [15:58] <zcorpan> view source is empty for me :-(
  304. # [15:58] * zcorpan updates firefox
  305. # [15:58] <hsivonen> I don't have an Aurora build here, so I can't test 13.
  306. # [15:59] <zcorpan> same with 14.0a1 (2012-03-25)
  307. # [15:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you have an external editor set?
  308. # [15:59] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: I'm running Aurora 13, and it works
  309. # [15:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no
  310. # [15:59] <GPHemsley> although the title bar lists "data:..." as the URL o_0
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  312. # [16:00] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: to avoid putting huge data: URLs there
  313. # [16:00] <GPHemsley> I suppose... but surely there's a happy medium?
  314. # [16:01] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: It doesn't do that for long http: URLs, does it?
  315. # [16:01] <hsivonen> GPHemsley: no
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  317. # [16:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hmm. that's weird. which OS is this?
  318. # [16:02] <zcorpan> Mac OS X 10.7.2
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  321. # [16:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: WFM on Mac
  322. # [16:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: sorry, I need more precise steps to reproduce
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  334. # [16:23] <annevk> so my mac says "Service Battery"
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  336. # [16:23] <annevk> does that mean I'll lose it for a long time?
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  338. # [16:25] <hsivonen> annevk: Air with built-in battery?
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  340. # [16:25] <annevk> Pro and no idea
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  342. # [16:26] <hsivonen> annevk: can't you buy a new battery for Pro without leaving it for servicing?
  343. # [16:27] <annevk> the help says "Service Battery: The battery isn’t functioning normally, and you may or may not notice a change in its behavior or the amount of charge it holds. Take your computer in for service. You can continue to use your battery before it’s checked without harming your computer."
  344. # [16:27] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  345. # [16:27] <annevk> and I think I might have Apple Care on it
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  347. # [16:28] <annevk> oh well, guess I'll go find out tomorrow
  348. # [16:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: 1. go to data:text/html,foobar 2. right click 3. view page source. ACTUAL RESULT: empty window
  349. # [16:31] <annevk> is that CSS3 logo a first? http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2012/03/26/html5-css-64bit
  350. # [16:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: woah. it shows up when i *click* in the view source
  351. # [16:31] <annevk> zcorpan: are you running Nightly?
  352. # [16:31] <zcorpan> yeah
  353. # [16:32] <annevk> it works fine for me
  354. # [16:32] <annevk> Mac
  355. # [16:32] <zcorpan> very weird
  356. # [16:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: WFM
  357. # [16:33] <zcorpan> it also shows up if i do an exposé
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  359. # [16:34] <hsivonen> a painting bug maybe
  360. # [16:34] <hsivonen> (I tested on a 2009 Mac Mini with Nvidia something graphics)
  361. # [16:36] <zcorpan> i have a few months old macbook pro
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  385. # [17:31] <annevk> is "each X has the following request-associated concepts" correct English?
  386. # [17:34] <michel_v> is there a verb more precise than "to have" in this context?
  387. # [17:39] <annevk> not sure what you mean
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  390. # [17:51] <michel_v> annevk: I mean that I find the verb a little bit vague. but other than that, it looks correct to me (which won't help you much as I too am an english-as-a-second-language person)
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  410. # [18:59] <bhearsum> does anyone know if it's possible to do HTML5 validation from within python, possibly with http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ ?
  411. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Hi bhearsum
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  413. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> And no, I'm afraid not
  414. # [19:01] <bhearsum> damn :(
  415. # [19:01] <bhearsum> also, hi Ms2ger!
  416. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> Java? :)
  417. # [19:01] <bhearsum> heh
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  420. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> bhearsum: fwiw, validator.nu does at least have an HTTP interface you could use from within python
  421. # [19:04] <bhearsum> hmmm
  422. # [19:04] <bhearsum> that might be O.K. here, i generally try to avoid network dependencies in tests though
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  426. # [19:05] <bhearsum> thanks for the link MikeSmith
  427. # [19:06] * bhearsum finds http://htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/offline/index.html.en
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  430. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> bhearsum: curl --data-binary @foo.html -H "Content-Type: text/html" "http://validator.nu?out=gnu&level=error"
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  432. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> is an example of doing it from the command line
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  435. # [19:13] <bhearsum> thanks
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  441. # [19:33] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  442. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> Good night, hat guy
  443. # [19:33] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: hats for everyone!
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  450. # [19:46] <kennyluck> Good midnight.
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  459. # [20:08] <Hixie> anyone have any opinions on how to do pattern transformations?
  460. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> Quickly? :)
  461. # [20:08] <Hixie> the two ideas currently are either an SVGMatrix argument to createPattern(), or a setTransform() method on CanvasPattern that takes an SVGMatrix
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  480. # [21:05] <Hixie> ok since nobody seems to care, i'm going for the method that sets the matrix.
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  511. # [22:10] <annevk> home sweet home
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  524. # [22:21] <annevk> Hixie: so we are stuck with SVGMatrix?
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  526. # [22:22] <annevk> I was kind of hoping it would go away in favor of something CSS-y (non-existing though...)
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  528. # [22:23] <hober> i liked dino's 4x4 matrix proposal (to unify svgmatrix & other matrix needs in the platform)
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  533. # [22:23] <annevk> hober: yeah, maybe that
  534. # [22:24] <annevk> hober: maybe comment on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10132 ?
  535. # [22:26] <jamesr_> i think canvas just needs a 2x3 here
  536. # [22:26] <jamesr_> not 4x4
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  548. # [22:45] <annevk> jamesr_: hmm yeah, so maybe they should not be shared after all
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  562. # [23:14] <Sirisian|Work> hey there he is. Hey annevk :) Decided to tweet you when I thought you didn't use this channel >_>
  563. # [23:14] <Sirisian|Work> Just saw your tweet
  564. # [23:15] <annevk> i'm here usually around European time
  565. # [23:15] <annevk> daytime*
  566. # [23:16] <annevk> fwiw
  567. # [23:16] <annevk> it usually takes me a while to get to a bug report, unless I happen to be editing the spec or it's something important that needs addressing soonish
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  574. # [23:25] <jwalden> well, this is moderately surprising
  575. # [23:26] <jwalden> looks like only v8 implements the correct behavior for dateWhichIsInvalid.setSeconds(argumentWhichSideEffectsWhenConvertedToNumber)
  576. # [23:26] <jwalden> and none of the other engines do it right
  577. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> JS is weird.
  578. # [23:26] * jwalden would have expected Opera to get it right, since they rewrote from the spec
  579. # [23:26] <jwalden> well, this isn't much a case of JS being weird, as of engines just not following the spec steps
  580. # [23:27] <jwalden> behavior here is kind of arbitrary once you allow implicit conversions and such
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  585. # [23:31] <annevk> ooh, a JS bug in Opera
  586. # [23:32] <annevk> gsnedders will be pleased
  587. # [23:32] <annevk> or find out you're wrong :p
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  589. # [23:35] <annevk> "Q: Does window.orientation=0 mean landscape or portrait mode? A: Depends on the browser. Gotta love WebKit APIs" euh sicking does it depend on the flavor of WebKit?
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  591. # [23:38] <gsnedders> jwalden: Partly depends if it changed between the final public draft of ES5 and the final spec, and regardless assumes we implemented all the built-ins correctly, which there certainly have been bugs like this before.
  592. # [23:39] <gsnedders> jwalden: Also implies neither our testsuite, your testsuite, nor test262 tests it. :P
  593. # [23:39] <jwalden> yup
  594. # [23:39] <jwalden> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=732779 is what triggered my discovery, fwiw
  595. # [23:40] <gsnedders> I was amused of the case of [[Put]]/[[Set]] on primitives and wrapping in strict. Found it, filed bugs, then someone else independently found it and filed bugs as well as emailing es5-discuss two days after.
  596. # [23:41] <jwalden> that bug's old, for us :-\
  597. # [23:41] <gsnedders> Yeah, you eventually found the dupe that I had missed.
  598. # [23:41] <jwalden> and drags in gnarly JSAPI public-API considerations
  599. # [23:41] <gsnedders> Certainly nobody else knew of it.
  600. # [23:41] <gsnedders> And V8 had the opposite bug!
  601. # [23:41] <gsnedders> It didn't wrap in strict or non-strict.
  602. # [23:42] <jwalden> oh, it's had about four or five dups or so, it's known...ish
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  604. # [23:42] <jwalden> among the JS programmerati
  605. # [23:42] <gsnedders> I meant in other JS engines.
  606. # [23:42] <jwalden> ah
  607. # [23:44] <Hixie> annevk: i have no opinion on svgmatrix vs other matrix solutions
  608. # [23:44] <Hixie> annevk: i'm just using what i have
  609. # [23:44] <gsnedders> jwalden: Slightly unrelated, but any interest in making your jstests runner work better with other engines?
  610. # [23:44] <annevk> that's fair enough I guess, but I'm afraid we're locking ourselves down
  611. # [23:44] <annevk> but maybe we're already past that
  612. # [23:45] <annevk> nobody has picked up that ball thus far
  613. # [23:45] <jwalden> gsnedders: somewhat; I have at least one large task on my plate to complete before I could do any of that, tho
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  615. # [23:45] <jwalden> at least if I'm volunteering my own time :-)
  616. # [23:46] <jwalden> plausibly it's a [good first bug] sort of thing
  617. # [23:46] <jwalden> although in a different sense from most of the JS first-bugs
  618. # [23:47] <Sirisian|Work> annevk, well the multiple monitor is kind of important. It's a problem that's plaguing many implementations since as soon as the screen loses focus you can't watch video. This is seen as a security concern so if my recommendation is added in a non-normative format then I can submit bugs to get all the browsers to implement it quickly allowing javascript to do something that not even a plugin like flash can do.
  619. # [23:47] <gsnedders> What we currently have makes it hard for us to stay up-to-date with the tests, which is awkward.
  620. # [23:48] <gsnedders> Might try and see if I can get permission to do such a thing (seeming it is technically contributing to moz, even if you are the ones who gain the least), but given I have exams coming up, I dunno about time.
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  622. # [23:50] <Hixie> aw man, i don't remember how cvs works any more
  623. # [23:50] <Hixie> how do i do a revert in cvs?
  624. # [23:51] <Hixie> i need to revert a file back to revision 1.126
  625. # [23:51] <gsnedders> Locally or on server?
  626. # [23:51] <Hixie> server. but nevermind, the google has given me the anwer.
  627. # [23:53] <annevk> Sirisian|Work: if it's a security issue you should file bugs regardless of what any spec says
  628. # [23:53] <Hixie> cvs update -j 1.132 -j 1.126 Overview.html
  629. # [23:53] <Hixie> does that look right?
  630. # [23:53] <Hixie> 1.132 is the current rev
  631. # [23:53] <annevk> Sirisian|Work: multi-monitor support is somewhat low on my priority list though
  632. # [23:53] <Sirisian|Work> you have 3 bugs. :\
  633. # [23:54] <Sirisian|Work> Or do you mean there's more discussion about bigger changes to the spec?
  634. # [23:55] <annevk> well, I'm still waiting for the CSS WG to figure out the display related bits
  635. # [23:55] <annevk> which are also important for <dialog>
  636. # [23:55] <annevk> so far it seems to be going nowhere though :/
  637. # [23:55] <annevk> but then I'm not subscribed to www-style so maybe
  638. # [23:56] <Sirisian|Work> Though that is a good suggestion. I think I'll submit bugs as a solution to the perceived security problem in the other browser's implementations. I have to leave work atm. Thanks for looking into it. :)
  639. # [23:57] <kennyluck> css3-box is not going anywhere so you need a CSS Skip-This Box Module Level 3 or something?
  640. # [23:58] <annevk> somebody else's problem until I'm through with waiting
  641. # [23:59] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@pool-71-184-234-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
  642. # Session Close: Tue Mar 27 00:00:01 2012

The end :)