/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-03-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 27 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:27] <sicking> annevk: it might depend on if it's a tablet or cellphone
  10. # [00:27] <sicking> annevk: since tablets are usually held in landscape mode, but cellphones in portrait mode
  11. # [00:27] <sicking> annevk: i only tried safari on iphone vs. "browser" on android tablet
  12. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> annevk: What are the display-related bits?
  13. # [00:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1423 gives Internal Error.
  14. # [00:30] <Hixie> what did you do?!
  15. # [00:31] <gsnedders> No idea.
  16. # [00:31] <Hixie> that's impressive!
  17. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: Really, I just pressed save. :P
  18. # [00:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://pastebin.com/AMWc0HKw
  19. # [00:32] <Hixie> likely story
  20. # [00:33] <Hixie> wtf
  21. # [00:34] <Hixie> brb will fix
  22. # [00:36] <zewt> sicking: fwiw, i very often hold my phone landscape (keyboard is much easier to use that way and switching back and forth is laggy on android)
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  25. # [00:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: looks like an apache bug. your test was just too long.
  26. # [00:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'm trying an alternative approach.
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  30. # [00:42] <jarek> why <text> element was introduced in SVG? How is that better than using HTML via foreignObject?
  31. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> jarek: That was *years* ago.
  32. # [00:42] <jarek> is it possible that text will become obsolete just like SVG fonts?
  33. # [00:42] <jarek> TabAtkins: 1999, right?
  34. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Sometime around then, yeah.
  35. # [00:43] <heycam> no I think we will keep <text> in SVG, because it is far more convenient to include a line of text than going to a <foreignObject>
  36. # [00:44] <heycam> I mean it's a shame that <foreignObject> is required to include HTML
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  38. # [00:44] <heycam> but I think it will be difficult at this point to allow HTML in SVG more directly than via <foreignObject>
  39. # [00:44] <jarek> yeah, SVG feels so decoupled from HTML
  40. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> I think we should keep trying!
  41. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> <svg><g><p>Some text!</p></g></svg> would be nice.
  42. # [00:45] <heycam> it sure would! I worry that the html parser is what stops us improving things like this
  43. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Not necessarily. It's still *possible* to change the HTML parser for high-value causes.
  44. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> We're doing it as part of Web Components, frex.
  45. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> To handle <template>.
  46. # [00:45] <heycam> oh really, huh
  47. # [00:46] <heycam> ok well I will keep that in mind
  48. # [00:46] <annevk> TabAtkins: the ::cover stuff or whatever it ends up being
  49. # [00:46] <annevk> TabAtkins: hober knows more
  50. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> So you can do things like <template><tr>...</tr></template> without that getting fixed up.
  51. # [00:46] <heycam> I see
  52. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: Okay. I'm in the process of writing an updated Display spec, so I'd like to see if I need to add anything else.
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  54. # [00:49] <Hixie> gsnedders: ok, fixed
  55. # [00:50] <Hixie> as a bonus i finally made the live dom viewer not document.write() it's url
  56. # [00:50] <Hixie> so now it should work on all the browsers with those annoying xss filters
  57. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> *Thank you*
  58. # [00:55] <zewt> ugh, ArrayBufferView constructors make a copy when passed another view, and only actually create a *view* when passed an ArrayBuffer? what horrible, mind-shattering drugs were they on?
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  62. # [00:57] <annevk> TabAtkins: well I guess the idea is to having something that covers both <dialog> and fullscreen
  63. # [00:57] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm not sure what that is though
  64. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, me neither.
  65. # [00:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: we should get hober and have lunch
  66. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Sounds good.
  67. # [00:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: figure out what needs to happen for these three specs to work together
  68. # [00:58] <Hixie> hober: you around?
  69. # [00:58] <Hixie> hober, TabAtkins: i can do tomorrow or wednesday, i'm out thursday and friday
  70. # [00:59] <abarth> Hixie: What do you think about exposing parent.location.origin across origins? Specifically, letting a frame see the origin of all the frames that contain it
  71. # [01:00] <abarth> Hixie: There are folks that want to do different things depending on who contains them. They can use postMessage today to coordinate, but that requires the containers to run code in the parent to coordinate
  72. # [01:02] <Hixie> going up the chain seems safe
  73. # [01:02] <Hixie> going down seems dodgy, consider a case like a site bank.com where you configure what your bank is so you go to bank.com and it redirects you to your bank
  74. # [01:02] <Hixie> now i just have to iframe bank.com to find out the user's bank
  75. # [01:03] <Hixie> better example of that would be something like livejournal, which has per-user subdomains
  76. # [01:03] <Hixie> or a corp url redirector, where being able to read the origin would expose a lot of internal hostnames
  77. # [01:03] <abarth> yeah, you wouldn't want to expose the origin of random frames
  78. # [01:03] <Hixie> but going up seems fine, sure
  79. # [01:04] <Hixie> it'll be a pain to implement, i imagine
  80. # [01:04] <Hixie> i think it might be better to expose as location.parentOrigin
  81. # [01:04] <Hixie> than parent.location.origin
  82. # [01:04] <abarth> that's an interesting idea
  83. # [01:04] <Hixie> less likely to misimplemented, too
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  85. # [01:05] <dave_levin> abarth: It has the nice side benefit that one can now hide ones origin and iframe if you really want to
  86. # [01:05] <dave_levin> abarth: Using two iframes
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  88. # [01:06] <abarth> yeah. thanks for the gut check. I'll send an email to the list with more information about the use cases, etc
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  93. # [01:14] <zewt> i don't think there was ever any reason to have an ArrayBuffer type at all; could have just made objects return an Int8Array and not have a magical typeless object
  94. # [01:15] <zewt> welcome to the future, where we still have crappy apis being permanently glued to the platform without any real review
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  96. # [01:20] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, it's not like the WebGL people were trying to work in secret - they had a use case, so they came up with a solution, and people outside the community were aware of it but didn't bother commenting on it (other than saying "the ES guys have been looking into this for years, if you wait a few more years they might agree on something that might be suitable"), so they stuck with it, and a year later it was implemented everywhere
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  98. # [01:21] <zewt> clearly, something went wrong
  99. # [01:22] <kennyluck> It probably started to go wrong when Microsoft decided to make IE free.
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  102. # [01:24] <Philip`> I guess what went wrong is that the people who could have given useful comments didn't give comments promptly, so they missed the chance to fix it in time
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  104. # [01:24] <zewt> was it ever raised for review on whatwg/webapps?
  105. # [01:24] <zewt> (saying "we're doing this thing, subscribe to webgl-public if you want to talk about it" isn't good enough)
  106. # [01:25] <zewt> <- just frustrated that it has such seemingly obvious warts, it's become an infrastructural API, and now we're stuck with the warts forever
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  108. # [01:29] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/mid/4B217A6B.8070905@mozilla.com
  109. # [01:30] <Philip`> (People paid more attention to public-html back then)
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  112. # [01:41] <kennyluck> Philip`, did anything happen to public-html in the meanwhile?
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  114. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: It was infested by process trolls and taken over by noise.
  115. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> See: every single message about longdesc, ever.
  116. # [01:44] <kennyluck> Huh.
  117. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> The worst part is that I know the a11y people *mean* well, they just put blinders on when talking about certain topics.
  118. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> They have a mysterious and total blindness about the "longdesc is completely polluted and useless" studies, and insist on trying to either pretend that it's perfectly okay, or that it will be okay *this time* if they just give it a different name.
  119. # [01:48] <zewt> TabAtkins: everyone means well
  120. # [01:48] <zewt> (perhaps excluding DRM folk)
  121. # [01:48] <kennyluck> lol
  122. # [01:48] <zewt> (wasn't a joke, heh)
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  124. # [02:09] <zewt> Philip`: asking for commentary on WebGL isn't quite the same as asking for it on typed arrays, either
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  167. # [03:57] <miketaylr> abarth: do you know if anyone has tried to contact winktoolkit people?
  168. # [03:57] <miketaylr> i've worked with them in the past on some compat stuff
  169. # [03:58] <abarth> miketaylr: nope, i just saw the bug report today
  170. # [03:58] <miketaylr> k, i'll email the guy and at least point him to the discussion
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  192. # [05:49] <smaug____> volkmar: ping
  193. # [05:49] <smaug____> volkmar: could you ask someone managing moznet to allow more connections from the hotel
  194. # [05:52] <smaug____> or gavin or ehsan
  195. # [05:53] <ehsan> I don't have control over moznet
  196. # [05:53] <smaug____> ehsan: could you perhaps ping someone
  197. # [05:53] <ehsan> smaug____: I only know gavin
  198. # [05:53] <ehsan> don't know anybody else with the privs :/
  199. # [05:54] * smaug____ files a bug to fix the situation
  200. # [05:54] <ehsan> smaug____: fwiw, I can't get on moznet myself :(
  201. # [05:54] <smaug____> oh
  202. # [05:56] <volkmar> I will ask on #developers
  203. # [05:57] <gavin> I can't do that myself
  204. # [05:57] <gavin> file a server ops bug
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  206. # [05:59] <smaug____> volkmar: ehsan bug 739516
  207. # [05:59] <ehsan> smaug____: thanks
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  216. # [06:23] <zcorpan> annevk: don't you mean s/non-streaming/streaming/ ?
  217. # [06:23] <zcorpan> oh wait
  218. # [06:26] <zcorpan> annevk: didn't we agree on having the non-streaming api on string/arraybuffer?
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  224. # [07:01] <zewt> zcorpan: no reason to do that
  225. # [07:01] <zewt> i mean, there's no benefit to having separate streaming and non-streaming apis
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  227. # [07:03] <zewt> turning new TextEncoding('foo').encode(s) into s.encode('foo') is really not much of a win for having more API
  228. # [07:03] <zewt> s/Encoding/Encoder/
  229. # [07:04] <zewt> bed
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  239. # [07:29] <zcorpan> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16524 is about recent canvas stuff
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  241. # [07:35] <Sirisian> He might not be awake
  242. # [07:36] <Sirisian> If Hixie is then I forgot to ask him about this: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11517
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  254. # [08:04] <zcorpan> so apparently there's no spec anywhere saying how percentage heights work inside tables
  255. # [08:04] <zcorpan> yay!
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  290. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2012Mar/0070.html
  291. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> [[
  292. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> RFC format: There is ongoing developing some tooling and workflow which will allow us
  293. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> to generate versions of our internet drafts and RFCs which have HTML and
  294. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> PDF alternatives.
  295. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> ]]
  296. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> to generate HTML versions
  297. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> I wonder how that's different from the generated HTML that tools.ietf.org already has
  298. # [10:23] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@161.212.140.88.rev.sfr.net)
  299. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> and I wonder in which decade it might actually happen that the sources are maintained in HTML and the plain-text generated from that
  300. # [10:23] * Joins: mattwest (~mattwest@host81-149-171-23.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  301. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> readability WTF
  302. # [10:24] <annevk> still no update on whether Unicode is okay huh?
  303. # [10:24] <annevk> IETF is hilarious
  304. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> there's still a few years left in this decade
  305. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> this is like the meeting of the Ents man
  306. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> I don't mean this particular message
  307. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> large irony here about multiple nit-picking editorial bugs filed against HTML spec and other W3C specs about "readability" issues
  308. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> as Jesus said, "wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye, and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye"
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  311. # [10:55] <Velmont> Hmmm. Having all the other tests reside inside one test that only does setup seems to be a quite nice way to do tests.
  312. # [10:56] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  313. # [10:56] <Velmont> Looking at http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebStorage/tests/submissions/Infraware/storage_local_key.html -- seems a nice way to do it.
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  315. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-montenegro-httpbis-speed-mobility-00
  316. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> see the parts where is says "Same SPDY" and the parts where is doesn't
  317. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> e.g., "It would maintain the integrity of the layered architecture."
  318. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> implication being that SPDY does not "maintain the integrity of the layered architecture"
  319. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> also, see the one about "Protect our precious bodily fluids."
  320. # [11:06] <annevk> layered architecture sounds painful
  321. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> wow, it took 6 people to write this draft
  322. # [11:08] <hsivonen> just what everyone needed: SDPY getting the Web Socket treament at the IETF
  323. # [11:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: to write an introduction to the topic you mean
  324. # [11:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: section 2 is non-existent, and 3 and 4 are boilerplate :)
  325. # [11:09] <annevk> nice tweet hsivonen
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  327. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> it's not a spec... it's not a requirements document... it's...
  328. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> mini-manifesto?
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  332. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> is this mostly intended as implicit criticism of SPDY or what?
  333. # [11:11] <zcorpan> Velmont: i think you're supposed to use setup(func) and ideally let the script produce the same amount of tests even if the setup fails
  334. # [11:12] <Velmont> zcorpan: Yes, that's what I've been doing a few times before. But it's not always easy to make small unit tests fail like that.
  335. # [11:12] <Velmont> zcorpan: Quite often the error condition is also "timed out" which is quite slow.
  336. # [11:13] <hsivonen> any word from Apple or Opera about SPDY?
  337. # [11:14] <zcorpan> Velmont: i don't see how a wrapper test helps with timed out :-)
  338. # [11:15] <Velmont> zcorpan: Well, -- the first test will most probably fail, -- but the rest 20 tests will then never actually get created, -- so it will help not having all of those time out.
  339. # [11:15] <annevk> hsivonen: it's on our roadmap, though I suspect we might delay implementing if the IETF gets a go at it because we'd just lose a lot of time
  340. # [11:15] <hsivonen> gotta love it when a user with Firefox issues has 15 add-ons
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  342. # [11:15] <Velmont> zcorpan: Well, -- not really a big problemo, -- but I'm always looking at different ways of writing the tests.
  343. # [11:15] <hsivonen> I guess I'm going to install those add-ons in a VM...
  344. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> e.g., does "Any HTTP 2.0 proposal should leverage the reliable transport and not attempt to replicate functions generally accepted as addressed by other layers." there because they see SPDY as replicating functions of other layers?
  345. # [11:16] <hsivonen> annevk: yay IETF for delays
  346. # [11:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: could have something to do with SPDY blending the TLS and HTTP layers
  347. # [11:17] <annevk> i was like "hurray" when I saw the HTTP 2.0 stuff come by
  348. # [11:17] <zcorpan> Velmont: not creating the other tests probably confuses spartan. i'm not sure but i think the framework doesn't wait for tests to time out if the setup fails
  349. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  350. # [11:18] <annevk> then made a little dance for being only tangentially involved in network standards
  351. # [11:18] <hsivonen> also, part of why SPDY works so well is that the TCP is a leaky abstraction, so multiplexing in SPDY is more efficient that letting IP multiplex multiple TCP connections
  352. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> I see
  353. # [11:19] <hsivonen> but AFAICT, SPDY does use TCP for "reliable transport"
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  359. # [11:42] <zcorpan> iirc timj said he had tried to argue in Kronos that exposing endianness differences wouldn't work on the Web, but he was alone in the group to think so
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  361. # [11:45] <annevk> :(
  362. # [11:45] <annevk> I have the impression he's often the sole sane voice there
  363. # [11:46] <annevk> I wonder how many years of experience the other people in that group have with browsers
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  365. # [11:55] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Hey, -- for testharness.js; I'm translating old NETWORK_ERR etc from the testcases to NetworkError. And then check if the implementation threw a newstyle DOMException (by checking if it has a type), if so: check that type == NetworkError, and code = 27. -- If old-style, only check for the code.
  366. # [11:56] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Is the approach fine? https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/pull/1
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  369. # [11:57] <Velmont> hrmf
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  372. # [12:08] <hsivonen> aargh. what's the deal with bank sites having bad HTML
  373. # [12:08] <hsivonen> 86 blank lines before the doctype. looking good.
  374. # [12:09] <hsivonen> very long meta keywords. check
  375. # [12:09] <hsivonen> coverage: global
  376. # [12:09] <hsivonen> money well allocated to SEO instead of reasonable HTML
  377. # [12:10] <hsivonen> ancient Netscape 4.x window resize fix
  378. # [12:10] <hsivonen> an empty script
  379. # [12:20] <hsivonen> cool. Hixie has actually explained what I need to do to fix this bank: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-February/034869.html
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  390. # [13:11] <annevk> two more decoders to go
  391. # [13:11] <annevk> actually, make that 3
  392. # [13:11] <annevk> big5, big5-hkscs, and gbk
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  397. # [13:15] * zcorpan wonders if it's reasonable to not support the unitless length quirk in calc()
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  401. # [13:16] <zcorpan> seems mozilla already does that
  402. # [13:17] <zcorpan> webkit also
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  404. # [13:21] <zcorpan> which makes sense, since calc can use numbers e.g. 2 * 5px
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  409. # [13:36] <zcorpan> fixed
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  414. # [13:54] * MikeSmith wonders what encoding the #entmoot channel uses
  415. # [13:54] <zcorpan> hmm, my fix was wrong
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  418. # [13:59] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I thought Entish was a non-written language (since if it was written then it could be read too hastily, and also trees don't have hands), so it's probably something like a very-low-frequency Vorbis encoding
  419. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> heh
  420. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> that explains the humming
  421. # [14:01] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  422. # [14:02] <Philip`> Oh, Wikipedia says I'm wrong - they adopted Quenya later, so presumably it'd be written in standard tengwar
  423. # [14:06] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-63-53.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: HTTP/1.1 404 JohnAlbin Not Found)
  424. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> Philip`: so there is yet hope
  425. # [14:08] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  426. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> can somebody look at http://platform.html5.org/ in Chrome for me and tell me if rendering of the list in the Legend section is borked?
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  430. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, looks good, but the green flag seems a little wider than the rest
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  433. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks
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  437. # [14:42] <annevk> I think I can probably describe all encodings using this index concept
  438. # [14:42] <annevk> except perhaps for gb18030 as it is silly
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  442. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: kindly please change the date on the diffs doc to March 29
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  445. # [15:04] <annevk> so things are going done before the end of the month?
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  447. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  448. # [15:05] <annevk> how about we change html5-diff after the rest is done?
  449. # [15:05] <annevk> ah nm
  450. # [15:05] <annevk> i'll just do it now
  451. # [15:06] <annevk> MikeSmith: done
  452. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> arigatou
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  459. # [15:16] <annevk> IANA is so crappy
  460. # [15:17] <annevk> http://www.iana.org/assignments/charset-reg/Big5-HKSCS has dead links
  461. # [15:17] <annevk> oh yeah, I should blame the group for maintaining that I guess, not "IANA"
  462. # [15:17] <annevk> otherwise someone might have a fit over the difference
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  474. # [15:36] <annevk> hmm forgot hkscs is layered on top of big5
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  477. # [15:36] <annevk> so big5-related stuff is pretty much a mess
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  480. # [15:43] <hsivonen> time flies. the xtranormal Web Socket video is from December 2010
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  482. # [15:45] <annevk> test
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  485. # [15:45] <annevk> hmm so my connection is flaky, but not that flaky
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  490. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> Velmont, your patch is on my todo list... I'll try to get to it tonight
  491. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> Sorry for the dealy
  492. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> delay, even
  493. # [15:50] <Velmont> :-)
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  497. # [15:55] <remysharp> should I be using a <progress> element to indicate file upload, even though I know the total size before the file is sent (this is the bit that's confusing me in the spec)?
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  500. # [16:00] <annevk> remysharp: yes
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  502. # [16:00] <annevk> remysharp: that would be a determinate progress
  503. # [16:01] <remysharp> annevk: would it be fair to say that meter could go up and down, whereas progress can only go up?
  504. # [16:01] <remysharp> so I could (as the spec suggests) use meter to track disk space available
  505. # [16:03] <annevk> disk measurement is not some task that the user waits for
  506. # [16:03] <annevk> progress is related to some kind of activity, meter is just measuring things
  507. # [16:04] <remysharp> so, that's kind of a yes to my up/down analogy :) -- just makes it a little easier for me to remember
  508. # [16:04] <remysharp> I think I just saw an example of meter being used to measure activity in a google group
  509. # [16:05] <remysharp> which sounds right by my understanding now
  510. # [16:06] <annevk> yeah, I might temporal activity
  511. # [16:06] <annevk> meant damnit
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  513. # [16:07] <remysharp> I liked my up/down thing - temporal reminds me of x-files for some reason :) (as requested, sense left at the door)
  514. # [16:08] <annevk> yeah dunno if up/down works in all cases, but it might
  515. # [16:08] <remysharp> I quietly suspect you're right
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  517. # [16:11] <annevk> yay Orange
  518. # [16:11] <annevk> (WHATWG list has context)
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  540. # [16:58] <annevk> hmm
  541. # [16:58] <annevk> both Opera and Chrome use surrogates for big5-hkscs
  542. # [16:58] <annevk> Gecko does not
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  559. # [17:37] <annevk> you'd think that iterating over 20000 code points is not that hard
  560. # [17:38] <annevk> I guess it's not in benchmarks and that's why everything is slow
  561. # [17:42] <annevk> in IE they do indeed appear identical mappings
  562. # [17:43] <annevk> I guess the next step is some intersection research
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  564. # [17:45] <gsnedders> annevk: Iterating over 20k codepoints is fairly quick. Doing stuff with them isn't.
  565. # [17:47] <annevk> good point
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  589. # [18:25] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  638. # [20:05] <hsivonen> is there a reference for Hixie's pre-IETF Web Sockets not having the problem with transparent proxies?
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  643. # [20:13] <Hixie> what's "the problem with transparent proxies"?
  644. # [20:14] <Hixie> (there could be several)
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  646. # [20:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: the proxy cache poisoning thing
  647. # [20:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: the one that was the big security thing at the IETF
  648. # [20:20] <Hixie> i'm not aware of a cache poisoning issue
  649. # [20:20] <Hixie> the thing that was a "big security thing at the IETF" as far as i can tell was a different thing for each person who thought there was a thing
  650. # [20:20] <Hixie> so that doesn't narrow it down for me :-)
  651. # [20:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg04744.html
  652. # [20:22] <Hixie> oh that's not necessarily cache poisoning. That's just the cross-protocol attack.
  653. # [20:22] <Hixie> my version of the protocol wasn't vulnerable to that because my protocol required sending what looked like two requests, the first one well-formed, and the second one noise
  654. # [20:23] <Hixie> and only if the two requests were treated as a single request by the proxy, and sent to the server together, and then the entire response sent back together as well, would the client send any more bytes
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  656. # [20:25] <Hixie> (i never really understood why people were so suddenly concerned by that attack; by the time adam put out that paper, the issue had long been resolved in the spec)
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  662. # [20:38] <hsivonen> oh. Chrome has migrated about:foo to chrome://foo vanity URLs
  663. # [20:38] <hsivonen> like Opera
  664. # [20:38] <hsivonen> except chrome: means something totally different in Gecko-based browsers
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  670. # [20:51] <jwalden> that's probably better, actually; about:* has weird security properties, would be better if the privileged stuff that lived under there in Gecko were instead under a completely different protocol that were flat-out off-limits
  671. # [20:52] <jwalden> whether about:* could ever be made only the safe stuff in Gecko, tho, dunno
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  685. # [21:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: is 'image-rendering' gone?
  686. # [21:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12044#c2)
  687. # [21:52] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  688. # [22:01] <annevk> hsivonen: Hixie: I think the reason people were concerned is because nobody shipped or implemented the latest version of Hixie's spec, which was published just before the fork happened
  689. # [22:13] <Hixie> at least safari did
  690. # [22:14] <Hixie> but seems like implementing what i wrote would have been better than disabling it ;-)
  691. # [22:14] <Hixie> anyway that's history
  692. # [22:14] <Hixie> lunch!
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  696. # [22:17] <annevk> no disagreement there
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  699. # [22:22] <karlcow> http://inkdroid.org/journal/2012/03/27/cc0-and-git-for-data/
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  702. # [22:26] <hober> Any comments on or suggestions for http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-200 before I send it in?
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  704. # [22:32] <annevk> if we are going to revisit where <legend> can be used, we should use it for <details> and <figure> again...
  705. # [22:33] <annevk> "In fact, the author conformance restriction on <legend> *helps* authors to avoid butting heads with <fieldset>'s (unchangeable) weirdness." I think we can still make this better by describing the <fieldset> behavior in terms of some new CSS concept
  706. # [22:33] <annevk> but it looks more like UI design these days has no need for <fieldset>
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  709. # [22:37] <hober> I'll add a note suggesting that those interested could propose 'some new CSS concept' to www-style; thanks
  710. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Punted to level 4.
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  714. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Are we generally against the init*Event functions?
  715. # [22:48] <smaug____> TabAtkins: yes
  716. # [22:48] <smaug____> in general
  717. # [22:48] <smaug____> not sure if there are some special cases
  718. # [22:48] <smaug____> (I think there aren't)
  719. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> What's the replacement?
  720. # [22:50] <kennyluck> constructors?
  721. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought.
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  729. # [23:30] <jgraham> Yeah init*Event shouldn't be used in new features
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  731. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> kk. The question came up regarding initTransitionEvent
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  734. # [23:38] <jgraham> TabAtkins: In unrelated news you now have me wondering about the biochemistry of the female reproductive system
  735. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> ...
  736. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> How?
  737. # [23:39] <jgraham> http://twitter.com/#!/tabatkins/status/184523386486128641
  738. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Ah, yes.
  739. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> The female reproductive system is slightly acidic.
  740. # [23:39] <jgraham> Ah
  741. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Thus at least part of the taste.
  742. # [23:39] <jgraham> Oh, that's quite famous isn't it
  743. # [23:40] <jgraham> The acidity, not the taste
  744. # [23:40] <jgraham> Although probably that too
  745. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> I dunno if acid snatches are famous.
  746. # [23:42] <jgraham> I was under the vauge impression -- and this is very much not my specialist area -- that people who tried to closely monitor their reproductive cycle for one reason or the other took pH into account
  747. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Oh, right. Yes.
  748. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> That does vary across the cycle.
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  752. # [23:58] <jgraham> Help, I have been on the internet too long. I see http://browserquest.mozilla.org/ and think of http://mozillaquest.com/
  753. # [23:59] <jgraham> (I assume one isn't supposed to think of that?!)
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  755. # Session Close: Wed Mar 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)