/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 02 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [01:21] <heycam> Hixie, on HTMLCanvasElement the "_callback" argument can now be named just "callback" (argument identifiers don't need to be escaped when they're any of the names at http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#prod-ArgumentNameKeyword)
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  44. # [02:13] <zewt> wow, nobody in webgl understands how web specs work *at all*
  45. # [02:13] <zewt> "I think that we should mandate that as soon as a feature becomes available without prefix, support for the prefix should be dropped."
  46. # [02:13] <zewt> as if specs can force browsers to do things
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  95. # [08:21] <boblet> can anyone give me an example showing the difference between s and del elements, where content that would be appropriate for one is not for the other? I’d like to check I understand the difference…
  96. # [08:34] <zcorpan> doesn't the spec have examples?
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  102. # [08:57] <boblet> zcorpan: the spec uses an old price being replaced by a new price for s, and completed todo items, closed bugs, replaced words, and a removed table column for del. However I’m not sure why del wouldn’t be appropriate for the old price, or s for e.g. replaced words
  103. # [08:59] <boblet> for example, if an online newspaper misquoted someone, they’d want to show both the incorrect text (for context) and the new text. semantically it seems like s and ins, but I’d probably use del and ins to use @datetime on del
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  105. # [09:01] <zcorpan> s+ins seems bogus
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  108. # [09:05] <zcorpan> if you fixed a misquote, it seems like a deletion and addition, so del+ins (if you want to keep the misquoted text, otherwise just remove the misquoted text altogether)
  109. # [09:05] <zcorpan> (and don't use ins in that case)
  110. # [09:05] <boblet> zcorpan: s seems possible for a misquote under “no longer accurate”, but I’m also iffy about it. The only examples of s are obsolete prices (with new sale price) and sold out events. I’m wondering what other content would be appropriate for s
  111. # [09:07] <zcorpan> a misquote wasn't accurate to begin with :-)
  112. # [09:08] <boblet> :) any other examples you can think of?
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  115. # [09:09] <zcorpan> *shrug*
  116. # [09:10] <boblet> zcorpan: thanks
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  118. # [09:16] <annevk> false descriptions
  119. # [09:16] <annevk> he's a <s>piece of work</s> nice guy
  120. # [09:16] <annevk> or some such
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  123. # [09:20] <zcorpan> name changes, maybe
  124. # [09:20] <zcorpan> <h1>Introducing <s>Crap</s> <s>Dirt</s> Dash</h1>
  125. # [09:21] <annevk> hsivonen: did you just write "when they" as "one day"?
  126. # [09:22] <annevk> hsivonen: because otherwise I'm not sure what you wrote
  127. # [09:24] <hsivonen> annevk: yes. speech recognition for the lose
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  129. # [09:25] <annevk> oh, if it was all dictated that's quite good then I guess
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  131. # [09:26] <zcorpan> annevk: did you get anywhere with big5?
  132. # [09:27] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-90-17.dynamic.t-2.net)
  133. # [09:27] <annevk> I haven't done much during the weekend, I have some kind of headache I can't seem to get rid of
  134. # [09:28] <zcorpan> :-/
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  136. # [09:29] <zcorpan> hmm
  137. # [09:29] <zcorpan> Simons-MacBook-Pro:Dotnetdotcom zcorpan$ grep -aFic "big5" web200904
  138. # [09:29] <zcorpan> 8882
  139. # [09:29] <annevk> it occurs in content too, but that's a lot higher
  140. # [09:31] <annevk> actually it's not
  141. # [09:31] <zcorpan> do you want the subset with pages that contain "big5"?
  142. # [09:31] <annevk> if I search for big5 through the data you gave me I get 8511
  143. # [09:32] <zcorpan> oh
  144. # [09:34] <annevk> hmm, but if I do the same grep I get 5780
  145. # [09:34] <zcorpan> that's weird. does the i flag not work with F?
  146. # [09:36] <annevk> I think my Python script might be wrong somehow
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  148. # [09:37] <zcorpan> grep -aPc "[bB][iI][gG]5" web200904
  149. # [09:37] <zcorpan> 8892
  150. # [09:37] <zcorpan> grep -aFizHZ "big5" web200904 > big5-all.txt resulted in a 91MB file
  151. # [09:38] <annevk> yeah my Python script must be wrong
  152. # [09:39] <annevk> though how exactly...
  153. # [09:39] <annevk> bytes = open("big5.txt", "rb").read()
  154. # [09:39] <annevk> find = b"big5"
  155. # [09:39] <annevk> found = b""
  156. # [09:39] <annevk> c = 0
  157. # [09:39] <annevk> for b in bytes:
  158. # [09:39] <annevk> if b.lower() in find:
  159. # [09:39] <annevk> found += b.lower()
  160. # [09:39] <annevk> else:
  161. # [09:39] <annevk> if found == find:
  162. # [09:39] <annevk> c +=1
  163. # [09:39] <annevk> found = b""
  164. # [09:39] <annevk> print c
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  166. # [09:39] * zcorpan is uploading it zipped (18MB) over 3G
  167. # [09:40] <annevk> why are you on 3G?
  168. # [09:40] <zcorpan> on the train
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  170. # [09:46] <annevk> with the script above I get more results than you
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  172. # [09:46] <annevk> 11k
  173. # [09:47] <annevk> zcorpan: is the grep thing just substring matches or are there other conditions?
  174. # [09:48] <zcorpan> your script seems to miss a count in e.g. "big55"
  175. # [09:48] <zcorpan> should be just substring
  176. # [09:49] <annevk> then I would get even higher numbers
  177. # [09:49] * zcorpan switching trains
  178. # [09:49] <annevk> running it on the 29MiB file gives 11k results
  179. # [09:49] <annevk> oh well
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  183. # [09:54] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Apr/0010.html
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  186. # [09:57] <annevk> my MacBook crashed hard
  187. # [09:57] <annevk> lots of pretty colored lines on the screen
  188. # [09:57] <zcorpan> annevk: textedit finds 11669 "big5"s in big5.txt
  189. # [09:57] <zcorpan> annevk: and 15564 in big5-all.txt
  190. # [09:58] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe the grep count counts "lines"
  191. # [09:58] <annevk> that's the same amount I found
  192. # [09:58] <annevk> exact
  193. # [09:59] <annevk> great, so my scripts are not entirely buggy
  194. # [09:59] <zcorpan> it's buggy for the input i gave :-)
  195. # [10:00] <annevk> hence "not entirely"
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  198. # [10:03] <annevk> the problem is that I haven't really found a way to analyze the data properly
  199. # [10:03] <annevk> there's about a 1000 files in what you gave me
  200. # [10:04] <annevk> and over 600000 potential code points in the PUA / HKSCS range
  201. # [10:05] <annevk> so far I thought of writing a tokenizer to strip out the HTTP related bits and store the HTML bits each in one file
  202. # [10:05] <annevk> then maybe have some statistics on a per file basis and study a couple of them
  203. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: "There really are spoons."
  204. # [10:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did I sent more misdictated email?
  205. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no, see the reply
  206. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> from Pat Hayes
  207. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> to the www-tag message you cited
  208. # [10:11] <hsivonen> I see
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  210. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> bz implementing ruby support?
  211. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=256274
  212. # [10:13] <annevk> www-tag is top of my list of lists I am considering to unsubscribe from
  213. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> oh, maybe he's just merging existing patches to the tip
  214. # [10:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks like it. it has been on his list of things to do
  215. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> ok
  216. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> good to see
  217. # [10:15] <annevk> original patch seems to be from Hajime Shiozawa
  218. # [10:16] <zcorpan> annevk: simon.html5.org/dump/big5-all.txt.zip
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  220. # [10:17] <hsivonen> annevk: IIRC, the original needed some additional attention from bz
  221. # [10:23] <annevk> thanks zcorpan, even more data I don't know what to do with :p
  222. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> is the list of encoding names in the Encodings spec the complete list that the spec will contain?
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  225. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> I realize some of the ones you have there you haven't specced out yet, but I just mean is that the complete outline at least
  226. # [10:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: unless someone finds another encoding we need to add
  227. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> OK
  228. # [10:29] <annevk> MikeSmith: and it has been suggested to remove the remaining IBM encodings
  229. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> oh
  230. # [10:29] <annevk> as well as iso-2022-cn
  231. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> why?
  232. # [10:29] <annevk> stronger case for the latter
  233. # [10:29] <annevk> because not all browsers implement them
  234. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> OK
  235. # [10:30] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  237. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> so the criteria for what's included is that it's limited to the set of encodings that all browsers support, right?
  238. # [10:30] <annevk> zcorpan: seems you did not upload a complete file
  239. # [10:30] <annevk> zcorpan: it downloads 14MiB and does not recognize it as a zip file
  240. # [10:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: or something that's needed for compatibility
  241. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> OK
  242. # [10:32] <annevk> MikeSmith: and potentially something that's really useful, but "better than utf-8" has not been found yet to my knowledge :)
  243. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: so that's basically what I already told Richard but I think at some point he's going to ask you himself, and maybe ask about specific encodings
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  245. # [10:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: cool
  246. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: would publishing this as a deliverable of the i18n WG be an option?
  247. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> that would put it in the same case as the charmod spec
  248. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> does HTML5 normatively reference charmod? or do any other specs?
  249. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> I mean it would put it in the same status as charmod as far as W3C publication
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  252. # [10:39] <annevk> I thought i18n didn't do RECs?
  253. # [10:39] <annevk> but charmod is a REC
  254. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
  255. # [10:39] <annevk> so that might be okay
  256. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> I'm not so clear on status of charmod
  257. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> is it actually a REC?
  258. # [10:40] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod/ says so
  259. # [10:40] <annevk> a frequently violated REC
  260. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> yeah, I see it is
  261. # [10:42] <annevk> oh sweet
  262. # [10:42] <annevk> the original Prince of Persia code is going online
  263. # [10:42] <annevk> I hope someone makes that playable in a browser
  264. # [10:43] <zcorpan> annevk: try again
  265. # [10:43] <annevk> trying again
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  267. # [10:47] <annevk> I think it worked
  268. # [10:52] <annevk> it did and it seems I hit the bug zcorpan found in my script
  269. # [10:52] * annevk finds 15537 hits for big5
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  281. # [11:38] <annevk> in the larger dataset not every file uses correct HTTP line endings
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  284. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Breaking news: people violate HTTP
  285. # [11:40] <annevk> the problem is I need to change my simplistic tokenizer
  286. # [11:40] <jgraham> HTTP working group being treated for shock.
  287. # [11:40] <annevk> I guess I should eat 0D when followed by 0A and otherwise use 0A
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  289. # [11:41] <annevk> or not worry about the larger dataset for now
  290. # [11:41] * annevk does that
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  294. # [11:54] <annevk> only a third of the files defines HTTP level charset
  295. # [11:54] <annevk> of which a tenth is not big5/big5-hkscs
  296. # [11:55] <annevk> and of those 34 a couple are bogus, some utf-8, iso-8859-1, ms950, and x-ms950-hkscs
  297. # [11:56] <annevk> bogus is actually either the empty string or b"null"
  298. # [11:56] <annevk> (i.e. those bytes, no quotes)
  299. # [11:56] <annevk> oh, and one euc_kr
  300. # [11:56] <annevk> which is also bogus, as it should be euc-kr to be recognized
  301. # [11:57] <annevk> the way I search for charset is somewhat bogus too btw, but the cheat is justified for the dataset :)
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  306. # [12:10] <annevk> zcorpan: hmm
  307. # [12:11] <annevk> zcorpan: are we sure they give the raw data?
  308. # [12:13] <annevk> zcorpan: if I open a couple of test pages, decoding them as utf-8 gives better results :/
  309. # [12:14] <annevk> what's the dataset source again?
  310. # [12:15] <annevk> ah http://dotnetdotcom.org/
  311. # [12:17] <annevk> to be clear, in processing I only opened files with the "b" flag set
  312. # [12:21] <annevk> Philip`: know anything about that?
  313. # [12:23] <zcorpan> annevk: also for big5.txt ?
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  315. # [12:30] <annevk> zcorpan: you mean big5-all.txt?
  316. # [12:30] <annevk> zcorpan: this was on big5-.txt
  317. # [12:32] <annevk> big5.txt
  318. # [12:34] <annevk> I looked at the first 50 files
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  320. # [12:35] <annevk> lots have big5 in HTTP set
  321. # [12:35] <annevk> but no big5 in the actual data
  322. # [12:41] <zcorpan> annevk: i meant big5.txt. big5-all.txt was zipped so might have been tampered with by zipping or unzipping, was my thought
  323. # [12:43] <annevk> it seems sort of plausible they have done normalization given the zero byte delimited files
  324. # [12:44] <annevk> but it's clearly not great for this
  325. # [12:46] <annevk> I think I'll email the dotnetdotcom guys just to be sure
  326. # [12:46] <zcorpan> textwrangler can't open big5.txt, but has no problems opening utf-8 files with nulls
  327. # [12:49] <annevk> well, there's no encoding conversion going on locally
  328. # [12:49] <annevk> bytes = open("big5.txt", "rb").read()
  329. # [12:49] <annevk> and
  330. # [12:50] <annevk> newbytes = open("test-" + str(c) + "." + charset + ".html", "wb")
  331. # [12:50] <annevk> the rest is just iterating over, testing on, and writing bytes
  332. # [12:58] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  333. # [13:00] <annevk> emailed dotdot
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  335. # [13:21] <annevk> zcorpan: so yeah e.g. the euc_kr file which has big5 in <meta>, has EF BF BD as byte sequence which is UTF-8 for FFFD and is nothing in either other encoding
  336. # [13:22] <zcorpan> annevk: ok :(
  337. # [13:22] <annevk> and it has the same sequences in big5.txt as it has in my split out files
  338. # [13:22] <annevk> when I use a hex editor
  339. # [13:22] <zcorpan> too bad
  340. # [13:23] <annevk> I could prolly write a custom utf-8 decoder to find out why big5.txt cannot be opened in TextWrangler, but I'm not sure that's worth it
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  347. # [13:52] <annevk> zcorpan: you could maybe quickly verify to be a 100% sure by checking some utf-16 data in the set
  348. # [13:52] <annevk> zcorpan: as additional sanity check
  349. # [13:54] <Philip`> The dotbot data can't contain any UTF-16 pages since it can't represent 0x00 bytes
  350. # [13:54] <annevk> doh
  351. # [13:55] * Philip` never tried looking to see what they actually do with 0x00 bytes (maybe reject that page, or drop those bytes, or truncate, or whatever)
  352. # [13:55] <annevk> windows-1252 data with octets over > 0x7F works too
  353. # [13:57] <zcorpan> grep -aPc "^Content-Type\s*:\s*text/html\s*;\s*charset\s*=\s*[\"']?utf-16" web200904
  354. # [13:57] <zcorpan> 0
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  356. # [14:02] <zcorpan> annevk: you could see what you find in http://webcrawl.s3.amazonaws.com/web.short.gz
  357. # [14:03] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe grep screws things up
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  359. # [14:05] <annevk> no
  360. # [14:05] <annevk> search for windows-1252
  361. # [14:05] <annevk> first octet sequence I find in that document is C3 96
  362. # [14:05] <annevk> it's a German document, and in UTF-8 that is Ö
  363. # [14:06] <annevk> and that is followed by sterreich so I think it is indeed normalized :(
  364. # [14:06] * Philip` notes that grep can screw things up if you don't run it with LANG=C
  365. # [14:06] <annevk> I'm just looking through the file zcorpan pointed out in a hex editor
  366. # [14:06] <annevk> nothing grep can screw up here
  367. # [14:07] <annevk> so sad panda face
  368. # [14:07] <annevk> big sad panda face
  369. # [14:08] <zcorpan> so i guess you need to go shopping for a different data set, or do a crawl yourself
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  372. # [14:11] <jgraham> Probably wouldn't be that hard to do a custom crawl that just got the kind of data you want (i.e. rejected any pages that aren't the encoding you care about without storing them)
  373. # [14:13] <Philip`> Depends if by "crawl" you mean actually parsing pages and following links and trying to get a not disasterously biased dataset, or just downloading random pages from lists on dmoz.org or wherever
  374. # [14:14] <jgraham> Well the extent that you need to actually parse pages to do it is rather limited
  375. # [14:14] <jgraham> You just need to find things that look like URLs
  376. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> Doesn't the dotbot data give you the URLs as well?
  377. # [14:14] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yes, but many urls are probably dead by now
  378. # [14:14] <zcorpan> http://s3.amazonaws.com/alexa-static/top-1m.csv.zip might be a useful starting point
  379. # [14:15] <annevk> what is that?
  380. # [14:15] <zcorpan> alexa's top 1 million sites
  381. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Sounds like Alexa's top 1 million pages
  382. # [14:15] <annevk> is there a way to get all the URLs from the dotbot pages who have big5 somewhere?
  383. # [14:15] <zcorpan> it'll only give you front pages
  384. # [14:16] <annevk> 'cause then I could just download the dotbot pages again
  385. # [14:16] <Philip`> jgraham: Most are relative URLs, so you need some way to resolve them properly, and it's quite possible the URLs include non-ASCII characters so you need to decode the pages first
  386. # [14:16] <annevk> and those that don't 404 and are still big5 would be useful
  387. # [14:17] <zcorpan> Philip`: can you think of a good way to do that?
  388. # [14:17] <Philip`> and you probably want to avoid following links like <script>..."<a href='"+url+"'>"... etc, so you can't just dumbly tokenise everything
  389. # [14:17] <jgraham> Philip`: Sure, decoding is necessary
  390. # [14:18] <jgraham> Philip`: But only picking absolute urls is fine because it biases you towards covering many different sites, not lots of data from the same site
  391. # [14:18] <Philip`> I guess the harder part is trying to avoid downloading a zillion pages from database-driven sites and no pages from anywhere else
  392. # [14:18] <jgraham> (which one also does by storing some sort of map of domain -> # pages and capping the number of pages per domain)
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  394. # [14:19] <Philip`> zcorpan: If you're finding the pages with grep -z, maybe you could add "-B2" so it prints the preceding two 'lines' (which includes the URL)?
  395. # [14:20] <zcorpan> ooh, clever
  396. # [14:20] <annevk> given the URL encoding stuff having everything in utf-8 makes perfect sense
  397. # [14:20] <annevk> although not necessarily for query parts, but maybe they do something special there too
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  402. # [14:35] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/big5-all-with-urls.txt.zip - i'll leave it to you to parse out the urls :-)
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  404. # [14:46] <annevk> ooh, that includes all the data?
  405. # [14:46] <annevk> hmm
  406. # [14:47] <annevk> guess that's not much of a problem
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  421. # [15:24] <davidb> oat
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  423. # [15:27] <Ms2ger> Morning
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  429. # [15:35] <mattwest> What is everybody's thoughts about using the <article> element to wrap the content of standard web page. For example something like an about page.
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  438. # [15:48] <annevk> alright so I make a string from start of file or 0A until I hit 00, append that to list of URLs and carry on...
  439. # [15:49] <annevk> zcorpan: can you actually make this one for the smaller big5.txt?
  440. # [15:49] <annevk> zcorpan: I think that contained more accurate data, this includes stuff such as big5.gif
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  449. # [16:03] <zewt> Web Application Store Community Group Launched
  450. # [16:03] <zewt>
  451. # [16:03] <zewt> april fool's was yesterday, guys
  452. # [16:04] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
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  454. # [16:04] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/big5-with-urls.txt.zip
  455. # [16:04] <zcorpan> LANG=C grep -aEizB2 "(content(-type[[:space:]]*:|=[[:space:]]*[\"']?)[[:space:]]*text/html[[:space:]]*;|<meta[[:space:]])[[:space:]]*charset[[:space:]]*=[[:space:]]*[\"']?(big5|cn-big5|csbig5|x-x-big5|big5-hkscs)" web200904 > big5-with-urls.txt
  456. # [16:05] <zewt> i just died a little in my mouth
  457. # [16:06] <annevk> one internet awarded to zcorpan
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  459. # [16:07] <zewt> as soon as grep seriously expects me to say [[:anything:]], it's time to switch to perlre
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  461. # [16:07] <zewt> it's near the top of the ridiculous-syntax list
  462. # [16:07] <zcorpan> -z doesn't work with -P :(
  463. # [16:08] <zewt> i'd write a real script first, heh
  464. # [16:08] <zewt> anyway off to work
  465. # [16:08] <zcorpan> this was simpler
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  495. # [16:52] <annevk> zcorpan: I'll have to look up HTML rendering for that
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  497. # [16:53] <annevk> zcorpan: prolly 18px
  498. # [16:53] <zcorpan> annevk: the quiz is on twitter :-P
  499. # [16:53] <annevk> root margin doesn't collapse iirc
  500. # [16:54] * Ms2ger thinks the best part of http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-tables-algorithms/Overview.src.htm is that it was written in MS Word
  501. # [16:55] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: LOL
  502. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered)">
  503. # [16:56] <annevk> kind of insane that the return value of urllib2.urlopen() does not expose response codes
  504. # [16:56] <annevk> there might be a reason to have XMLHttpRequest in Python after all
  505. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> You should talk to lckl luke
  506. # [16:57] <jgraham> annevk: The built in urllib is kind of icky
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  510. # [16:57] <jgraham> You probably want to use httplib2 or requests instead
  511. # [16:58] <annevk> I'm using urllib2
  512. # [16:58] <jgraham> Well, like I said, that's your first problem
  513. # [16:59] <jgraham> (I mean it's not *unusable*, it's just that both the above mentioned libs are *better*)
  514. # [16:59] <annevk> isn't urllib2 the one written by Joe Gregorio and now finally included by Python?
  515. # [16:59] <jgraham> Not in any version of python I know about at least
  516. # [16:59] <jgraham> httplib2 is the one he wrote
  517. # [17:00] <annevk> so what is urllib2 then?
  518. # [17:00] <jgraham> Part of the standard library
  519. # [17:00] <annevk> hmm okay
  520. # [17:00] <annevk> stuff is confusing
  521. # [17:01] <jgraham> That partially relplaces urllib, which is also part of the standard library
  522. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> We need a urllib5, I guess
  523. # [17:01] <jgraham> Not python's finest moment
  524. # [17:01] <jgraham> Anyway, all the cool kids are using requests these days
  525. # [17:02] <jgraham> http://docs.python-requests.org/en/latest/index.html
  526. # [17:02] <jgraham> Although httplib2 is a fine choice also
  527. # [17:03] <annevk> not helping reduce my headache
  528. # [17:03] <annevk> but requests does look nice
  529. # [17:03] <jgraham> "pip install requests" -> no more headache
  530. # [17:03] <jgraham> (not medical advice)
  531. # [17:05] <annevk> ooh
  532. # [17:05] <annevk> but I can use the undocumented getcode() method too
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  539. # [17:19] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1442
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  546. # [17:37] <annevk> this new strategy works btw
  547. # [17:38] <annevk> it'll take a while to get all the data downloaded, but I have some big5 pages now
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  549. # [17:43] <karlcow> "You might be intrigued by the existence of two separate URL modules in Python - urllib and urllib2. Even more intriguing: they are not alternatives for each other. " — http://www.hacksparrow.com/python-difference-between-urllib-and-urllib2.html
  550. # [17:44] <karlcow> the support for Web standards in python std lib is kind of subpar in general
  551. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Well, it's kind of subpar in browsers too
  552. # [17:44] <annevk> but then standards such as URL are subpar too
  553. # [17:45] <karlcow> and then if you thought there were not enough choices http://pypi.python.org/pypi/urllib3/
  554. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> "The Interwebs: We're Subpar"
  555. # [17:45] <karlcow> ;)
  556. # [17:45] <karlcow> Ms2ger: hmm nice tag line :)
  557. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Maybe something for MikeSmith's platform page :)
  558. # [17:46] <karlcow> http://urllib3.readthedocs.org/
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  560. # [17:47] <karlcow> https://github.com/shazow/urllib3
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  576. # [18:15] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  577. # [18:17] <jgraham> dglazkov: 33% -> FAIL
  578. # [18:18] <dglazkov> good evening, jgraham?
  579. # [18:18] <jgraham> Ooh, much better :)
  580. # [18:19] <dglazkov> moderately crappy evening, jgraham!
  581. # [18:19] * dglazkov aims to please
  582. # [18:19] <jgraham> :)
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  584. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> Reasonable afternoon, dglazkov
  585. # [18:23] <dglazkov> reasonable indeed! The cafe downstairs is serving sardines and seaweed salad for breakfast. <3
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  590. # [18:30] <jgraham> Oh, is today at google btought to you by the letter "s"?
  591. # [18:30] <jgraham> *brought
  592. # [18:30] <jgraham> Which number is it?
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  604. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: so apparently i18n WG was chartered to do RECs when charmod was published, but not any longer
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  609. # [18:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: makes sense
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  622. # [19:25] <dglazkov> jgraham: number 1, of course! :)
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  649. # [20:17] <dglazkov> http://infrequently.org/2012/04/bedrock/
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  671. # [20:43] <tantek> slightlyoff - LOL at "Fault tollerence" [sic] - http://infrequently.org/12/eclipsecon/#23
  672. # [20:44] <tantek> (found linked from your bedrock article that dglazkov dropped into the channel)
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  686. # [21:00] <annevk> dglazkov: looks like the same message as earlier
  687. # [21:03] <annevk> dglazkov: it would be more interesting once someone outlined how say <textarea> would be implemented using these low-level primitives, including styling, text selection, etc.
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  698. # [21:21] <dglazkov> annevk: yup
  699. # [21:22] <dglazkov> annevk: textarea is already pretty much done that way in WebKit -- just the long tail of one-off reconciliation tweaks remain.
  700. # [21:23] <dglazkov> annevk: a similar experiment for me is implementing innerHTML.
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  703. # [21:31] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/csspubquiz
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  705. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> Semantic markup and twitter? Fascinating combination
  706. # [21:39] <zcorpan> all my quizzes so far are actual things i've stumbled upon, all but one in relation to the quirks spec
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  776. # [23:04] <Hixie> someone asks if there's an equivalent of me but for JS -- who should I send them to for JS feedback?
  777. # [23:05] <gsnedders> There isn't.
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  779. # [23:05] <gsnedders> es-discuss if you want a mailing list
  780. # [23:05] <Ms2ger> You?
  781. # [23:05] <Hixie> es-discuss@ what domain again? mozilla.org?
  782. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah
  783. # [23:05] <Hixie> thanks
  784. # [23:05] <gsnedders> If you want private feedback, join ECMA and TC39.
  785. # [23:09] <Hixie> anyone have an opinion on http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-January/034489.html ?
  786. # [23:10] <Ms2ger> I don't know anything about it, so I default to assuming dbaron is right
  787. # [23:11] <Hixie> yeah me too :-)
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  798. # [23:31] <rubys1> Brendan is the closest thing to a BDFL for JS
  799. # [23:32] <gsnedders> Still a long way from it, though
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  801. # [23:33] <rubys1> Hixie: got a minute? Apparently your proposal <http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120328#l-1010> wasn't as controversial as I would have expected.
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  804. # [23:35] <Hixie> rubys1: sure, sup
  805. # [23:35] <rubys1> a few questions, and perhaps we can wrap this up quickly. Do you have any thoughts on what template would be used?
  806. # [23:36] * Hixie follows the link to work out what we're talking about
  807. # [23:36] <Hixie> template?
  808. # [23:36] <Hixie> you mean what boilerplate? as little as possible, i'd hope
  809. # [23:37] <rubys1> that's probably sufficient for my purposes right now. Making it look different than a WG draft was the spirit of the question. Sounds like that would be fine with you. Agreed?
  810. # [23:38] <Hixie> sure
  811. # [23:39] <Hixie> could even be more or less identical to the whatwg version
  812. # [23:39] <Hixie> though without the scripts, i guess
  813. # [23:39] <rubys1> Next question, would you want to keep this as is, or would you plan on changing it: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#is-this-html5? ?
  814. # [23:40] <Hixie> it would presumably have to be clarified a bit
  815. # [23:40] <rubys1> Last question:
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  817. # [23:42] <rubys1> when we last talked, I proposed http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext-hixie/, given what you are intending, is the following OK as a URL: http://dev.w3.org/html/spec-hixie/
  818. # [23:42] <rubys1> note html, not html5, not html-next, simply html.
  819. # [23:44] <Hixie> while that would be ideal in retrospect, i think it's probably best from a pragmatic position if we just leave all the html stuff and derivatives in the html5/ directory
  820. # [23:44] <Hixie> makes life easier when dealing with cvs tree fragments
  821. # [23:45] <Hixie> (spec-whatwg would probably be more in line with how the spec is described, too)
  822. # [23:45] <Hixie> (there's a number of specs in dev.w3.org/html5/... that are not what the w3c calls "html5" but fall under the buzzword "html5", e.g. websockets, iirc)
  823. # [23:46] <Hixie> (so i don't think it'd be especially controversial to keep using html5/...)
  824. # [23:46] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
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  827. # [23:48] <rubys1> I'm just gathering data at the moment. This may or may not be controversial; at the moment, I just want to know what is being proposed. In any case, I've got the answers I need to proceed. If you think of anything more, feel free to ping me.
  828. # [23:49] <Hixie> k
  829. # [23:49] <Hixie> rubys1: what would the purpose be of having a copy of the whatwg spec in dev.w3.org?
  830. # [23:49] <Hixie> rubys1: i don't have a problem doing it, but it does seem like it might be a bit confusing for people
  831. # [23:50] <Hixie> rubys1: (and we do have a lot of confusion surrounding this already, sadly)
  832. # [23:50] <rubys1> I thought it would be controversial because of exactly that reason. But since you proposed it, I followed through and asked around, and didn't find any pushback. In fact, some liked the idea.
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  834. # [23:52] <Hixie> rubys1: oh i wasn't so much proposing it as saying that i would be happy to do it if you thought it would address some need. i'm just unclear on what need it solves.
  835. # [23:52] <Ms2ger> Hixie, so... Creating a new StorageEvent does set e.key to the empty string in Chrome and Gecko
  836. # [23:53] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yeah, i figured that might change things. seems better to just keep things consistent though, long-term.
  837. # [23:53] <Ms2ger> Works for me, just wanted to make sure you're aware
  838. # [23:54] <Hixie> yeah, i was. thanks for checking though.
  839. # [23:54] <Hixie> i think this is only the second or so issue that's arisen from that huge patch heycam did way back when we added nullable annotations to html
  840. # [23:55] <Hixie> pretty impressively low rate of errors
  841. # [23:55] <Ms2ger> I wish I had such a rate for my own specs :)
  842. # [23:56] <Hixie> that's all heycam; my own changes of that nature have way more bugs :-)
  843. # [23:56] <Hixie> that's why i didn't want to do it in the first place :-)
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  848. # [23:57] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: speaking of spec bugs, do you consider http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1443 a spec bug?
  849. # Session Close: Tue Apr 03 00:00:00 2012

The end :)