/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 07 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:06] <zewt> heh, gmail's gui editor has become next to unusable
  6. # [00:06] <zewt> delete one line of quotes, the entire block disappears
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  8. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Solution: stop using a gui editor.
  9. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Or use the gui editor in the way most people do, bottomquoting the entire preceding message.
  10. # [00:09] <zewt> that's too much of a pain in the ass with gmail, because if you don't send the mail in gui mode, it sends a horribly pre-wrapped 80-column mail
  11. # [00:10] <zewt> so i'd have to switch back and forth each time (or manually formatting-kill every time)
  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> pine.
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  14. # [00:13] <zewt> gross
  15. # [00:13] <zewt> i think i used that in highschool, heh
  16. # [00:13] <Hixie> that's what i use for all my e-mail. :-)
  17. # [00:13] <zewt> that must be why it takes you six months to reply to mail :P
  18. # [00:14] <Hixie> nah, it's the other way around
  19. # [00:14] <Hixie> it'd be longer with a gui editor
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  21. # [00:22] * TabAtkins just realized he doesn't have to match the grammar exactly with his parser; he just has to capture the same behavior.
  22. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Duh.
  23. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> In particular, the grammar goes through some contortions to express things like "selectors can be basically anything!" and to produce a good structure for error-recovery.
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  35. # [00:44] <Hixie> heycam|away: you should provide a spec subscription model for webidl like i have for html :-)
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  116. # [04:58] <tantek> from the archives: 5 years ago - "XML for Dummies" - http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/487522534/
  117. # [05:01] <zewt> who else is xml for?
  118. # [05:01] <zewt> (bam)
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  154. # [09:43] <annevk> oh yes
  155. # [09:43] <annevk> yay hober
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  158. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  159. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> One advantage to the previous D3E editors was that I didn't have to review so many changes...
  160. # [09:57] <annevk> I wish we'd be working on the UI Events spec already
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  163. # [10:36] <smaug____> annevk: how is that link relevant?
  164. # [10:36] <smaug____> I was talking about setAttributeNS
  165. # [10:38] <annevk> sure once you use that all bets are off
  166. # [10:39] <annevk> but for HTML you can just use setAttribute to modify existing namespaced attributes
  167. # [10:40] <smaug____> you can, but you don't have to
  168. # [10:40] <smaug____> which is a problem
  169. # [10:41] <smaug____> so if you use setAttributeNS and filter is for name, attribute handling gets trickier
  170. # [10:41] <smaug____> I think we should focus on non-namespaced attributes, and get them work better
  171. # [10:41] <smaug____> and in that case namespace is null, and localname == name
  172. # [10:41] <annevk> how would they work better?
  173. # [10:43] * smaug____ could point annevk to sicking's bugzilla comment :)
  174. # [10:44] <annevk> the scenario where you only care about non-namespaced attributes and yet lots of namespaced attributes are mutated seems pretty alien to me
  175. # [10:45] <annevk> and especially combined with the fact that'd you use the same attribute name in the non-namespace and a namespace
  176. # [10:46] <annevk> xlink:value doesn't exist btw
  177. # [10:46] <smaug____> xlink:href does
  178. # [10:46] <Ms2ger> xlink :(
  179. # [10:46] <smaug____> indeed
  180. # [10:47] <annevk> smaug____: yeah and when used in a non-namespaced context such as HTML it'll be prefixed
  181. # [10:47] <annevk> and then you can filter href, xlink:href and it's all cool
  182. # [10:48] <annevk> using your scheme observing link mutations in a HTML document that has some SVG becomes much harder
  183. # [10:48] <smaug____> annevk: why is it prefixed?
  184. # [10:48] <smaug____> if you use setAttributeNS
  185. # [10:48] <annevk> because it has to be to work in HTML
  186. # [10:48] <annevk> setAttributeNS doesn't change the prefix
  187. # [10:49] <smaug____> if you do htmlelement.setAttributeNS("xlinkns", "href", "http://foobar.com");
  188. # [10:50] <annevk> why optimize for unlikely scenarios?
  189. # [10:51] <smaug____> er
  190. # [10:51] <smaug____> optimize for the common scenario
  191. # [10:51] <smaug____> where attributes don't have namespace
  192. # [10:51] <annevk> right, and namespaced attributes have a fixed prefix
  193. # [10:52] <smaug____> namespaced attributes don't have a fixed prefix
  194. # [10:52] <smaug____> they have fixed prefix only for parsing purposes
  195. # [10:52] <smaug____> but you can create attributes also other ways
  196. # [10:53] <smaug____> and this API is about mutations, so it is expected that those other ways are used
  197. # [10:54] <annevk> setting an XLink attribute on an HTML element seems highly unlikely
  198. # [10:54] <smaug____> yes
  199. # [10:54] <smaug____> but setting it on an svg element isn't that unlikely
  200. # [10:54] <annevk> right, and there you want to observe it...
  201. # [10:57] <smaug____> so you can't use filters
  202. # [10:57] <smaug____> because namespaced aren't fixed
  203. # [10:57] <smaug____> er, namespaces
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  205. # [10:59] <smaug____> er, namespace prefixes :)
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  208. # [11:09] <annevk> only if there's no such attribute with the same local name and namespace yet
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  213. # [11:16] <annevk> hahaha
  214. # [11:17] <annevk> example.com is our number two most referenced URL
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  223. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> zewt++
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  235. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> The "bathtub" approach?
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  252. # [15:31] <zewt> postincrement me, will you
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  258. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> ++zewt
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  286. # [18:51] <wycats> I'm looking at the html5lib tokenizer tests, and they claim that tokenizing just plain "\u000B" is a parse error. The only place I can see reference to 000B is in the entity parsing algorithm. I don't see any reason for plain "\u000B" to enter the entity parsing algorithm. Why is it a parse error?
  287. # [18:51] <wycats> Hixie: ^
  288. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> I'm not sure if those parts of the tests are reliable
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  290. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> Ah, but it is a tree builder err
  291. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> or
  292. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> wycats, ^
  293. # [18:59] <wycats> Ms2ger: hm
  294. # [18:59] <wycats> where?
  295. # [18:59] <wycats> I couldn't find it
  296. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#the-initial-insertion-mode
  297. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Any non-space character before the doctype is a parse error
  298. # [19:00] <wycats> hm
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  300. # [19:00] <wycats> this complicates the order in which I am writing the parser
  301. # [19:01] <wycats> I have to get the tree builder involved now
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  303. # [19:01] <wycats> maybe I should just strip out parse errors from the tests for now?
  304. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> Well, AIUI, you can't write a standalone tokenizer
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  306. # [19:14] <Hixie> wycats: i assume you mean a string consisting of just a single U+000B?
  307. # [19:14] <Hixie> wycats: that's an error for multiple reasons, including lack of DOCTYPE
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  313. # [19:21] <Philip`> wycats: The html5lib tokenizer tests are meant to run without a tree constructor, including the parse errors
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  315. # [19:22] <wycats> Hixie: it shouldn't be a tokenizer error, though
  316. # [19:22] <wycats> but Ms2ger is correct
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  318. # [19:23] <Hixie> the spec doesn't distinguish between tokenizer errors and tree errors
  319. # [19:23] <wycats> on the other hand Philip` seems to be saying something different
  320. # [19:23] <Hixie> there's just parse errors
  321. # [19:23] <wycats> Hixie: I understand
  322. # [19:23] <wycats> my question is largely about the html5lib tests, and I would leave it at that except that Philip` seems to have some info about the tokenizer tests being designed to run without a tree constructor
  323. # [19:24] <Hixie> ah, i am not the right person to ask about those tests specifically :-)
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  326. # [19:27] <Philip`> wycats: "Preprocessing the input stream" says it's a parse error
  327. # [19:27] <wycats> Hixie: no problem
  328. # [19:27] <wycats> Philip`: lemme look
  329. # [19:27] <Philip`> (along with many other characters)
  330. # [19:27] <wycats> aha!
  331. # [19:28] <wycats> the same characters that are parse errors in a character reference
  332. # [19:28] <Philip`> and html5lib treats the input stream as part of the tokenizer
  333. # [19:28] <wycats> Philip`: cool
  334. # [19:28] <Philip`> hence it being in the tokenizer tests
  335. # [19:28] <wycats> Philip`: if you're interested, what I'm working on is a browser polyfill for the HTML5 parser
  336. # [19:28] <wycats> mostly just for fun
  337. # [19:29] <wycats> there's a node-based one, but it's pretty tied up with node's streaming semantics
  338. # [19:29] <wycats> and I'm trying to stick closer to the spec for now, just for educational purposes
  339. # [19:32] <Hixie> annevk: every member in HTML has to change somehow, because I currently check for infinity/nan myself for every member.
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  341. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Only I always have to point out to people that you do :)
  342. # [19:39] <Hixie> it's not clear to me that moving it to a different spec is going to make that better ;-)
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  344. # [19:39] <wycats> Philip`: so if I follow the preprocessing rules, that should be enough for the tests?
  345. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> I think the fact that WebIDL used to allow passing through NaN/Infinity, but you caught it somewhere between WebIDL and your algorithms made it particularly hard
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  350. # [19:52] <Philip`> wycats: Yeah, preprocessing plus tokenizing should be enough for the tests
  351. # [19:53] <Philip`> though if you don't closely follow the spec then number/position of parse errors may change
  352. # [19:54] <Philip`> (I think validator.nu doesn't match parse errors precisely)
  353. # [19:54] <wycats> Philip`: my setup should guarantee the proper position of the parse errors
  354. # [19:54] <wycats> here's an example of a state definition: https://gist.github.com/2330820
  355. # [19:55] <wycats> token is the current token, next is the character that was just consumed
  356. # [19:55] <wycats> tokens is the token stream
  357. # [19:55] <wycats> errorState emits a parse error and switches states
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  359. # [19:55] <wycats> as you can see, it's pretty close to the spec text, so the parse error positions should be exact
  360. # [19:57] <wycats> Philip`: is it expected to get two parse errors for character references containing the illegal characters?
  361. # [19:57] <wycats> once due to the preprocessing and once due to http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tokenization.html#tokenizing-character-references
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  363. # [19:58] <Hixie> sweet kittens did you really just reference the TR/ page version of the spec
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  366. # [20:16] <zewt> awooga awooga
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  407. # [22:08] <Philip`> wycats: I'm not quite sure what case you meant
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  424. # [23:00] <annevk> Hixie: yeah have these generic rules at the top of the spec that are only overridden for canvas
  425. # [23:01] <annevk> Hixie: the new double aligns with those restrictions in throwing for Nan/Infinity
  426. # [23:01] <annevk> s/yeah/you/ ...
  427. # [23:01] <Hixie> yup
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  437. # [23:21] <wycats> Philip`: ahh... the case I was looking at was &#..., which won't be invalid in the preprocessing phase
  438. # [23:21] <wycats> because it's just a number there
  439. # [23:22] <annevk> wycats: what are you writing the parser in?
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  442. # [23:26] <Philip`> wycats: Indeed
  443. # [23:29] <wycats> annevk: JS
  444. # [23:30] <wycats> so far I'm probably 70% done with the tokenizer
  445. # [23:30] <wycats> I'm missing doctype, script, and entities in attribute values
  446. # [23:30] <wycats> annevk: specifically, browser-friendly JS
  447. # [23:31] <wycats> there's something written in node, but it makes heavy use of Node's streaming stuff
  448. # [23:31] <wycats> I also wanted the code to somewhat resemble the spec for pedagogical reasons
  449. # [23:31] <annevk> wycats: did you have a look at flanagan's code?
  450. # [23:31] <wycats> annevk: I googled hard and didn't find anything
  451. # [23:31] <wycats> link please
  452. # [23:32] <annevk> wycats: http://www.davidflanagan.com/2011/10/html-parsing-wi.html
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  454. # [23:32] <annevk> wycats: https://github.com/andreasgal/dom.js/blob/master/src/impl/HTMLParser.js
  455. # [23:33] <wycats> I hope my code will not end up to be 250k
  456. # [23:33] <wycats> but unknown
  457. # [23:33] <wycats> maybe it will
  458. # [23:33] <annevk> probably a lot of it is the named character references
  459. # [23:33] <wycats> hm bigger problem
  460. # [23:33] <wycats> it seems to heavily use ES5 features
  461. # [23:34] <wycats> https://github.com/andreasgal/dom.js/blob/master/src/impl/HTMLParser.js#L155
  462. # [23:34] <wycats> half the point of what I'm doing is as a polyfill for browsers without HTML5 parsers
  463. # [23:34] <wycats> so I can't use new features
  464. # [23:34] <annevk> kk
  465. # [23:34] <wycats> :/
  466. # [23:34] <wycats> too bad
  467. # [23:34] <annevk> anyway, you might be able to borrow some
  468. # [23:34] <gsnedders> How are you getting the original HTML to reparse?
  469. # [23:35] <wycats> gsnedders: it's for things like innerHTML
  470. # [23:35] <wycats> where you have the string already
  471. # [23:35] <wycats> and you want a document fragment
  472. # [23:35] <wycats> if all goes well, I'll also be able to prototype the context-free parser stuff
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  474. # [23:35] <wycats> the stuff from the <template> discussion
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The end :)