/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-13 / end

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  91. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Typo in the parser section "Preprocessing the input stream" -> "explicit ignored" should be "explicitly ignored".
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  122. # [05:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: unless it's an area i'm in the middle of editing, it's best to send that kind of feedback to the bug system by just pasting the offending text and saying "typo" in the feedback box
  123. # [05:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: just as quick as IRC, but I won't lose track of it :-)
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  148. # [07:45] <Von_Davidicus> Hello, all.
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  160. # [07:56] <annevk> oh hey, it's Friday the 13th
  161. # [07:57] <Von_Davidicus> Hello, annevk. May I get your opinion as to the accuracy of a statement I wanted to put into an essay?
  162. # [07:57] <jwalden> friday, friday, gotta get down on friday
  163. # [07:57] <annevk> where is Neil deGrasse Tyson to point out Thursday the 12th is just as rare
  164. # [07:58] <annevk> jwalden: heh
  165. # [07:58] <Von_Davidicus> The statement is: "XHTML 2.0 was virtually booed off the web."
  166. # [07:58] <annevk> Von_Davidicus: XHTML 2.0 got some attention, but was mostly not adopted because it was not backwards compatible, and the breaking changes didn't bring enough benefit to be worth the enormous transition cost
  167. # [07:59] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, okay. From what I read, it was virtually rejected en masse.
  168. # [07:59] <Von_Davidicus> So basically, my statement is way off base?
  169. # [07:59] <annevk> in the end people were pretty opposed, in the beginning even Hixie cheered that effort on
  170. # [08:01] <annevk> see e.g. http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1042630901&count=1
  171. # [08:02] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: what do you mean by "virtually" in that sentence?
  172. # [08:02] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: really it wasn't that xhtml2 was rejected, so much as it had no adoption
  173. # [08:03] <Hixie> annevk: i was supportive of the xhtml2 wg even as it was being shut down
  174. # [08:03] <annevk> :)
  175. # [08:03] <Hixie> annevk: i just didn't think what they were doing was being adopted (or had much chance of being adopted) :-)
  176. # [08:04] <Von_Davidicus> I know there was a lot of what XHTML2 that I was looking forward to. <li><a...><img...> condensed into <li>? Yes please.
  177. # [08:06] <Von_Davidicus> And what I meant by "virtually" was that there were some dissenting voices, the concept remained, but the majority of the developers gave xHTML 2.0 the thumbs-down.
  178. # [08:06] <annevk> oh, Chrome will be the second browser with <input type=date>
  179. # [08:06] <jwalden> yeah, see, that's not *really* a tangible benefit :-) a little cleaner looking, but it doesn't give any new functionality
  180. # [08:06] <annevk> only six years after Opera
  181. # [08:06] <Hixie> screw type=date
  182. # [08:06] <Hixie> where's type=color!
  183. # [08:06] <Hixie> and when will firefox do type=range!
  184. # [08:06] <Hixie> also i really want more browsers to do <meter>
  185. # [08:06] <jwalden> people adopt stuff that gives them functionality, but a bit of change half for change's sake just doesn't do much for people when it comes to brass tacks
  186. # [08:07] <annevk> Gecko is doing B2G instead of WF2
  187. # [08:07] <Hixie> also, why are browsers being so slow to implement <dialog>
  188. # [08:07] <Hixie> it's been in the spec for DAYS
  189. # [08:07] <annevk> ok now you're getting silly :p
  190. # [08:07] <Hixie> B2G?
  191. # [08:07] <jwalden> clearly dialog needs to be talked up more
  192. # [08:07] <annevk> https://wiki.mozilla.org/B2G
  193. # [08:08] <Hixie> <dialog> is gonna be awesome
  194. # [08:08] * jwalden isn't sure what the current state for web forms is these days
  195. # [08:08] <jwalden> (in Gecko)
  196. # [08:08] <annevk> https://wiki.mozilla.org/B2G/FAQ is better actually
  197. # [08:08] <Hixie> annevk: ah, right
  198. # [08:08] <annevk> searching for your old XHTML 2.0 post I also found this one: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1180683614&order=1
  199. # [08:08] <annevk> a nice reminder of the old days
  200. # [08:09] <annevk> report a serious implementation issue, no progress for years
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  202. # [08:12] <annevk> "DOMException.code is deprecated per DOM4 spec." it isn't really...
  203. # [08:12] <annevk> I guess a little bit
  204. # [08:12] <annevk> oh well
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  206. # [08:19] <Von_Davidicus> Question: Do you think XHTML 2.0 would have gained more traction if IE hadn't been so slow in adopting XHTML in general?
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  208. # [08:21] <jwalden> more, I think yes
  209. # [08:22] <jwalden> much more? less likely
  210. # [08:24] <Von_Davidicus> I've read that it would have helped if XHTML2.0 had a different name. I mean, WML got somewhere.
  211. # [08:25] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: WML didn't get much of anywhere except on devices that didn't already support HTML (so where there was no backcompat issue)
  212. # [08:26] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: and when compat with HTML became an issue, it died
  213. # [08:27] <Hixie> XHTML2's main problem was that it was trying to replace something with a massive installed base, without offering a commensurate advantage
  214. # [08:27] <Hixie> if XHTML2 had been amazing, it could have overcome its backcompat issue
  215. # [08:27] * Joins: dirkpennings (~dirkpenni@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl)
  216. # [08:27] <Hixie> but it barely did anything more than HTML4
  217. # [08:28] <Hixie> so there really was no incentive to use it at all
  218. # [08:28] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, and Hixie... you mentioned in your blog you'd never found a use for the style="" attribute. I DID have one, though circumstances changed and it was removed.
  219. # [08:29] <Hixie> what was it?
  220. # [08:29] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  221. # [08:30] <Von_Davidicus> I had a page demonstrating all named colours--specifically, a table with the name, the hex, rgb, and hsl codes, AND a cell at the end of the row with the colour in question as a background. Since those were the only elements in the entire WEBSITE that used those styles, I decided it was better to simply use the style="" attribute than to go through creating 100+ rules, one for each of those table cells.
  222. # [08:32] <Von_Davidicus> Later on, though, I did a webpage on that same website describing CSS values--along with a list of CSS colour names. Now that I had two elements on the website using each styling, I decided to move the contents of the style="" attributes over to a stylesheet.
  223. # [08:32] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-147-216.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: HTTP/1.1 404 JohnAlbin Not Found)
  224. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> the many problems with XHTML2 start with the fact that from its TOC you can't even tell what new features it might be adding
  225. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> instead you see the word "Module" about 75 times
  226. # [08:35] <Von_Davidicus> *Nods.*
  227. # [08:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: you should tell Jeff about that
  228. # [08:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: he seems to think we should modularize again
  229. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> then when you explore those modules you start to see that it's all the same stuff that was in HTML4, except now it has Modules
  230. # [08:36] <Von_Davidicus> What was the whole idea behind Modularizing?
  231. # [08:37] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  232. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> then once you've wasted a bunch of time doing that exploration you get to realizing what Hixie said about "no commensurate advantage"
  233. # [08:38] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  234. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> Von_Davidicus: ask the people who were in the XHTML WG
  235. # [08:38] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: sounds like what you had was a graphic, not something that HTML would be really best used for
  236. # [08:38] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  237. # [08:38] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: consider, how would you read it to someone on the phone?
  238. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: I've tried at least to make it clear to the team that modularization is not a priority to the actual implementors the spec is intended for
  239. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> and that it even causes problems for end users
  240. # [08:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  241. # [08:42] <Von_Davidicus> Good question, Hixie, but it was more a spreadsheet than anything, and the last cell in that table was simply a sample of the colour. May I send you a link to the page in question?
  242. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> witness the case of Microdata, where because of the way it's split out, you have the HTML5 spec specifying conformance restraints but needing to do it while pretending that Microdata doesn't exist, and the separate W3C Microdata spec needing to override that with the actual constraints
  243. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> but many people read just the constraints in the HTML5 spec but don't see the ones in the Microdata spec
  244. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> there have been several validator bugs filed about this already
  245. # [08:44] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: i'm familiar with the kind of page you mean, it's ok
  246. # [08:44] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: i think something like svg might be more appropriate for those though
  247. # [08:46] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  248. # [08:47] <Von_Davidicus> Not really. I wanted as many browsers as possible to be able to read the website, and older versions of Internet Exploder tend to get their knickers in a knot when SVG is involved.
  249. # [08:47] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  250. # [08:49] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: ah, well, if the use case is "support IE", then I agree there's plenty of reasons to use style=""
  251. # [08:49] <Hixie> and <table> for layout, for that matter
  252. # [08:49] <Hixie> especially older IEs
  253. # [08:49] <Hixie> :-)
  254. # [08:49] <Hixie> i was asking more on a theoretical level
  255. # [08:49] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  256. # [08:49] <Von_Davidicus> Well, in this case, I use <table> for a spreadsheet-style webpage.
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  260. # [09:00] <zcorpan> argh... why do spec editors feel the urge to "deprecate" stuff instead of jumping directly to the desired outcome and remove altogether directly
  261. # [09:00] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.77.18)
  262. # [09:04] <smaug____> what is wrong with deprecation?
  263. # [09:04] <smaug____> it is a strong hint that the stuff will go away at point
  264. # [09:04] <zcorpan> it doesn't work on the web
  265. # [09:04] <zcorpan> authors don't care if things are deprecated
  266. # [09:04] <zcorpan> they use what works
  267. # [09:04] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  268. # [09:06] <Hixie> yeah if you can't remove it straight away, you'll probably never remove it
  269. # [09:07] <zcorpan> right
  270. # [09:08] * Joins: nesta_ (~nesta_@37.Red-81-36-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  271. # [09:08] <Von_Davidicus> Who uses <font> these days?
  272. # [09:08] <nesta_> good morning! :)
  273. # [09:08] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  274. # [09:08] <Ms2ger> jwalden, the status of WF2 is that volkmar works on B2G instead
  275. # [09:09] <jwalden> plausible
  276. # [09:09] <jwalden> I had thought there was one or so other person looking at it, tho
  277. # [09:10] <Von_Davidicus> Question: Should one still test websites in the Lynx browser?
  278. # [09:10] <Ms2ger> And K9O isn't going to help
  279. # [09:11] <jwalden> Von_Davidicus: depends on your target audience
  280. # [09:11] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: annevk)
  281. # [09:11] * jwalden has occasionally found it useful to browse sites with lynx
  282. # [09:11] * Quits: schnoomac (~schnoodle@melbourne.99cluster.com) (Quit: schnoomac)
  283. # [09:11] <jwalden> but anyone who uses lynx to browse is a bit of an edge case, for most sites
  284. # [09:12] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  285. # [09:13] <zcorpan> Von_Davidicus: of 8915 front pages from the top 10,000 sites, i see 1850 pages using a <font> tag
  286. # [09:13] <zcorpan> data set http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/04/html5-accessibility-chops-data-for-the-masses/ $ grep -aPihrc "<font\s" .
  287. # [09:14] <zcorpan> so more than 20%
  288. # [09:14] <Von_Davidicus> Target: Mostly farmers, some of whom might be using browsers old enough that CSS support is dodgy.
  289. # [09:14] <zcorpan> that's more than pages using the html5 doctype in this data set
  290. # [09:16] * Quits: dydz (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydz)
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  292. # [09:16] <Von_Davidicus> I created a webpage for my dad's business, and I tested it in Lynx.
  293. # [09:16] * Joins: dydz (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
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  300. # [09:28] <annevk> zcorpan: you mean the BlobBuilder stuff?
  301. # [09:28] <annevk> zcorpan: I don't get that either, just nuke it from the draft alright
  302. # [09:29] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYDCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  303. # [09:29] <annevk> if it turns out we absolutely must support BlobBuilder we can always add it back in
  304. # [09:29] <Von_Davidicus> Sorry, what is BlobBuilder?
  305. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> Something that will die a painful death soon enough
  306. # [09:30] <smaug____> hopefully not painful
  307. # [09:31] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah, but i recall seeing the same behavior before (dunno what it was about then)
  308. # [09:32] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  309. # [09:34] <annevk> zcorpan: init*Event() perhaps
  310. # [09:34] <annevk> zcorpan: Travis thought we should deprecate it first...
  311. # [09:34] <annevk> so much nonsense
  312. # [09:39] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-4.1450hg.fc15 [XULRunner 10.0.1/20120216115618])
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  317. # [09:45] <volkmar> Ms2ger: i might have some minions this summer to do forms stuff
  318. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2efjw7RN61rrf1eeo1_1280.jpg
  319. # [09:56] * Von_Davidicus chuckles
  320. # [09:57] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, question: Will HTML5 bring back <marquee> and <blink>? * :D Ducks bricks. :D *
  321. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> Both are specified in the HTML spec
  322. # [09:59] <Von_Davidicus> seriously?
  323. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> Yes
  324. # [10:00] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, my goodness, there it is. TLTAAAW...
  325. # [10:01] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, sorry, I should explain that abbreviation. It stands for "The Looney Tunes Are Alive And Well"; it's a phrase some of my friends and I use when we try to make what we think is an utterly ridiculous statement--and discover it's perfectly true.
  326. # [10:07] <zcorpan> https://twitter.com/AskDotCom/status/190521773945667584 LOL
  327. # [10:15] * Joins: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDB9B0C.dip.t-dialin.net)
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  332. # [11:22] <annevk> zcorpan: seems kind of a weird reply
  333. # [11:22] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@p6567c3.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-36726: SIGTERM received; exit)
  334. # [11:23] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-243-157-97.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  335. # [11:25] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326EE5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  336. # [11:33] <zcorpan> "If a type that is not one of DOMString [WebIDL], ArrayBuffer [TypedArrays], or Blob is used as a blobParts member, the user agent MUST throw an InvalidStateError." http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#dfn-Blob
  337. # [11:33] <zcorpan> doesn't webidl throw TypeError already in that case?
  338. # [11:33] <zcorpan> or convert?
  339. # [11:34] * Quits: Von_Davidicus (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196) (Quit: Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs.)
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  342. # [11:37] * Ms2ger sighs
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  346. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, converts to DOMString, yes
  347. # [11:46] * Ms2ger sends email
  348. # [11:46] <zcorpan> i filed a bug
  349. # [11:47] <Ms2ger> wfm
  350. # [11:47] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16721
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  352. # [11:51] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@p6567c3.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  353. # [11:51] <annevk> also, should we reconsider that constructor in light of ES6 changes?
  354. # [11:51] <annevk> a signature of (options, data...) prolly makes more sense
  355. # [11:52] <zcorpan> maybe, but not right now :-)
  356. # [11:54] <hsivonen> sigh. I'm looking at script data escaped less than sign state :-(
  357. # [11:54] <hsivonen> I didn't want to look here again
  358. # [11:55] <zcorpan> why are you looking at it?
  359. # [11:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: crash in View Source
  360. # [11:56] <zcorpan> ah
  361. # [11:56] <hsivonen> you are in a maze of state transitions all alike
  362. # [11:56] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1004:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  365. # [11:58] <zcorpan> you are likely to be eaten by the W3C grue
  366. # [11:59] <hsivonen> smaug____ is going to have fun reviewing this
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  369. # [12:04] <annevk> hsivonen: pointer to patch?
  370. # [12:04] * annevk is curious
  371. # [12:05] <zcorpan> so do i understand correctly that new Blob("foo") is equivalent to new Blob(["f", "o", "o"]) per webidl?
  372. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> What makes you think that?
  373. # [12:06] <zcorpan> or is it equivalent to new Blob(["foo"])?
  374. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> It throws a TypeError
  375. # [12:07] <zcorpan> ah
  376. # [12:07] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-sequence
  377. # [12:08] <zcorpan> ok
  378. # [12:08] <zcorpan> cheers
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  380. # [12:09] <zcorpan> new Blob(window) doesn't throw though, since it supports indexed properties :-)
  381. # [12:10] <hsivonen> annevk: patch not ready yet
  382. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, and it will append "[object Window]", "[object Window]", "[object Window]", ... ?
  383. # [12:11] <zcorpan> yeah
  384. # [12:11] <zcorpan> i'm totally gonna test that case
  385. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> Do it! :)
  386. # [12:15] <zcorpan> seems you can also overwrite the toStrings on the windows
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  389. # [12:18] <annevk> zcorpan: if we don't change it now we can't change it in the future
  390. # [12:18] <annevk> and we'll make arv_afk sad
  391. # [12:19] <zcorpan> well, we don't support es6 today and i'm supposed to write tests for Blob today
  392. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> No more innerHTML? :(
  393. # [12:19] <zcorpan> not today
  394. # [12:20] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
  395. # [12:20] <zcorpan> the impl for that is finished (should match the spec as it is, roughly)
  396. # [12:21] <zcorpan> hint: gecko and webkit don't match the spec
  397. # [12:21] <zcorpan> for innerHTML in xml that is
  398. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> Unsurprising
  399. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> We've got someone rewriting our innerHTML implementation soon, though
  400. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: for XML?
  401. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I thought what was about to get rewritten is the innerHTML getter in the HTML mode
  402. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> Not clear from the bug
  403. # [12:24] * zcorpan was talking about the setter
  404. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: it's a perf bug basically and XML perf doesn't matter
  405. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> :)
  406. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, including the silly thing with the foo-- element you showed earlier?
  407. # [12:25] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: the context is doing badly on some benchmark
  408. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  409. # [12:26] * Ms2ger doesn't care about benchmarks much
  410. # [12:26] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: that too
  411. # [12:28] <zcorpan> but in particular, gecko and webkit don't pick up the prefix from the element when there's no ns decl
  412. # [12:28] <zcorpan> and gecko likes throwing weird exceptions and webkit likes returning null, or some such
  413. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> Oh, we do like our weird exceptions
  414. # [12:30] <annevk> zcorpan: you're gonna file bugs on 'endings' not being defined and such?
  415. # [12:43] <hsivonen> the annoying thing about test cases is that they show your patch isn't done yet
  416. # [12:46] <smaug____> hsivonen: whaaaat
  417. # [12:46] <smaug____> what should I review now
  418. # [12:47] <annevk> hsivonen: sounds like writing a standard without sufficient tests
  419. # [12:47] * smaug____ scrolls up
  420. # [12:47] <annevk> hsivonen: or a standard with tests, but none written by zcorpan
  421. # [12:47] <hsivonen> smaug____: an upcoming patch for a view source crash
  422. # [12:48] <Ms2ger> smaug____, EVERYTHING! ;)
  423. # [12:49] <smaug____> noooouuu
  424. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> Bah, who reviewed our Blob ctor?
  425. # [12:50] <smaug____> but shadow dom proposal yes
  426. # [12:50] * smaug____ doesn't remember if he reviewed that. perhaps not
  427. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> sicking
  428. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> That explains a lot
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  432. # [13:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: it doesn't even match the spec?
  433. # [13:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: I have the feeling sicking just guesses what the spec says and then instead of reading it, asks on the mailing list about it
  434. # [13:01] <Ms2ger> Not for new Blob(window), no :)
  435. # [13:01] <annevk> it's really weird
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  443. # [13:17] <hsivonen> annevk: in case you are still curious, it turned out to be a 3-line fix: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=614726&action=diff
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  445. # [13:27] <zcorpan> ok does the endings values in new Blob([], {endings: ... }) include the quotes or not?
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  447. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> '"transparent"' or "transparent"?
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  449. # [13:33] <zcorpan> yeah
  450. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> The former, per spec, I guess
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  452. # [13:37] <zcorpan> sigh, i'm not gonna get to writing tests with a spec like this
  453. # [13:38] <Ms2ger> Does WebIDL actually define to use the defaults for dictionaries?
  454. # [13:40] <zcorpan> when the argument is omitted, you mean?
  455. # [13:41] <Ms2ger> Yes
  456. # [13:41] <Ms2ger> It would be silly to use the default when the argument is present, no? :)
  457. # [13:42] <zcorpan> the property can still be omitted
  458. # [13:42] <zcorpan> new Blob([], {})
  459. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> Ah, no
  460. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> When the *property* is omitted, I can't read
  461. # [13:43] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-dictionary-member-default-value
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  463. # [13:45] <zcorpan> i guess webidl should treat omitted dictionary the same as an empty dictionary
  464. # [13:45] <zcorpan> to not have all specs need to say that
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  466. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> "the value the dictionary member is to be considered to have when not present"
  467. # [13:50] <Ms2ger> That could come straight out of a CSS spec
  468. # [13:51] <zcorpan> heh
  469. # [14:00] <zcorpan> "If an invalid key is used or if the dictionary argument is invalid, user agents MUST throw an InvalidStateError."
  470. # [14:00] <zcorpan> aargh
  471. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> Yeah :/
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  476. # [14:21] * zcorpan wonders how to test endings:"native"
  477. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> confirm("Are you on Windows?");
  478. # [14:23] <zcorpan> i guess newlines will always either be one or two chars, so i can test for that
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  481. # [14:48] <zcorpan> hmm so what should happen for {endings:"bogus"}
  482. # [14:49] <zcorpan> webidl only says to use the default value when the key is not present
  483. # [14:49] * Ms2ger goes for throwing
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  485. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> "If S is not one of E’s enumeration values, then throw a TypeError."
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  487. # [14:51] <zcorpan> values aren't necessarily enumerated
  488. # [14:51] <zcorpan> e.g. type can be anything
  489. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> endings should be an enum, I guess
  490. # [14:52] <Ms2ger> So, is there a way to get the value of endings out again?
  491. # [14:52] <zcorpan> not directly
  492. # [14:53] <zcorpan> making endings enum might be a good idea
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  498. # [15:07] <smaug____> someone should write a good article about MutationObserver
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  500. # [15:07] * smaug____ is obviously trying to delegate some work.
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  512. # [15:27] * zcorpan decides to go with var isWin = navigator.platform.substr(0, 3) == 'Win'; to test native endings
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  514. # [15:41] <zcorpan> what's an example of a platform array object?
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  518. # [15:51] <annevk> smaug____: preferably one that can serve as introduction in the specification
  519. # [15:52] <annevk> hsivonen: code looks daunting
  520. # [15:52] <annevk> zcorpan: oh you found normative requirements around "endings", nice
  521. # [15:52] <zcorpan> does <select> support indexed properties?
  522. # [15:53] <zcorpan> it has getter Element item(unsigned long index); but i can't find that it says "supports indexed properties"
  523. # [15:54] <annevk> might be a bug then per IDL "getter" requirements
  524. # [15:55] <zcorpan> oh, the magic phrase is "determine the value of an indexed property"
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  526. # [15:57] <zcorpan> hmm, no, the idl getter and long is enough
  527. # [15:58] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-indexed-property-getter
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  531. # [16:07] <zcorpan> heycam|away: you know if anything uses webidl "platform array object"?
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  535. # [16:16] <annevk> zcorpan: fwiw, I often use "<code>stringvalue</code>" in specs, is that confusing?
  536. # [16:16] <annevk> though not entirely consistently if it's both a name and a potential string value
  537. # [16:16] <annevk> like say utf-8
  538. # [16:17] <annevk> that's unquoted
  539. # [16:17] <zcorpan> i think that's fine; file-api had <dfn>"native"</dfn>
  540. # [16:18] <annevk> oh
  541. # [16:18] <zcorpan> and "a DOMString which can take the values "transparent" or "native""
  542. # [16:18] <annevk> when spec writers don't pay attention to details it gets messy
  543. # [16:19] <annevk> anyway, back tonight
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  546. # [16:33] <zcorpan> hmm. should new Blob() take ArrayBuffer or ArrayBufferView?
  547. # [16:33] <zcorpan> the latter, right?
  548. # [16:36] <zcorpan> man this is probably a record on bugs for a single feature for a day
  549. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Blame Typed Arrays for that :)
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  603. # [18:44] <charlvn> what's going on with this page - http://www.whattf.org/mailing-list - it's being returned as text/plain
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  606. # [18:57] <Hixie> whattf?
  607. # [18:57] <Hixie> try whatwg :-)
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  609. # [19:10] <gsnedders> Oh I bet I know what caused my Gmail account to get suspended again. I logged in from Windows… Or at least that's the only thing different about last night.
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  623. # [19:25] <charlvn> Hixie: yeah it's been a very long time since i last looked at that site - not sure who is running / maintaining it
  624. # [19:26] <charlvn> the domain is registered by an Elika Etemad
  625. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> That would be fantasai from the CSSWG.
  626. # [19:26] <charlvn> ah
  627. # [19:27] <charlvn> strange that i recognise fantasai and not her real name :)
  628. # [19:27] <Hixie> gsnedders: send me an e-mail to ianh@google.com and i'll poke around again
  629. # [19:28] <charlvn> talking about whatwg.org - the one block looks a little bit strange in firefox 11 on ubuntu 11.10 http://i.imgur.com/Odmex.png
  630. # [19:28] <charlvn> in chromium it's perfect http://i.imgur.com/zKaw9.png
  631. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Different line-wrapping.
  632. # [19:29] <charlvn> yeah
  633. # [19:29] <smaug____> different font
  634. # [19:29] <charlvn> not that it really matters or anything, just something i noticed
  635. # [19:30] <kbrosnan> different fonts have different widths
  636. # [19:30] <kbrosnan> the one ubuntu chooses for the default font causes extra wrapping
  637. # [19:32] <kbrosnan> you can try using something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_fonts which has similar metrics to the MS core fonts
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  641. # [19:36] <tantek> well this is an funny snapshot: http://www.whattf.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
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  644. # [19:37] <charlvn> 7 July 2008 - nice
  645. # [19:38] <charlvn> ok i'm off - bbl
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  661. # [19:55] <annevk> inbox explosion
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  665. # [20:04] <annevk> kennyluck: online?
  666. # [20:05] <annevk> hmm, it seems to be 3AM in Tokyo
  667. # [20:06] <kennyluck> annevk, I am no longer in Tokyo, but what's up?
  668. # [20:07] <annevk> oh okay
  669. # [20:07] <annevk> kennyluck: wondering about a summary of the mailing list discussion since running it all through Google Translate would be cumbersome
  670. # [20:07] <annevk> where are you now?
  671. # [20:09] <kennyluck> annevk, I am in Beijing now. So, the mailing list discussion… I don't think there's any good progress, besides two Taiwanese friends of mine suggest that merging big5-hkscs into big5 is not a good idea.
  672. # [20:10] <annevk> btw, does anyone know if Gecko/WebKit have open bugs on fixing the way they represent characters in URL that cannot be expressed in a certain encoding?
  673. # [20:10] <annevk> kennyluck: k, but no data?
  674. # [20:10] <annevk> kennyluck: I saw something about a lang= attribute too
  675. # [20:11] <annevk> kennyluck: what's their solution when using Chrome?
  676. # [20:11] <kennyluck> I somehow come to think there's not likely to be more big5-hkscs than big5-uao in Taiwan for a very simple reason: big5-hkscs doesn't support Japanese well, and that was a main use case why people want to extend big5 at all.
  677. # [20:12] <kennyluck> annevk, nothing to scientific but I start to collect a list of those that are best decoded as big5-hkscs or big5-uao → http://www.w3.org/html/ig/zh/wiki/Big5#big5-uao
  678. # [20:12] <kennyluck> in terms of data
  679. # [20:12] <kennyluck> foolip is working on something that'll be more systematic.
  680. # [20:12] <annevk> yeah, the question is more I guess how much extended big5 there is in Taiwan to begin with
  681. # [20:13] <annevk> I've seen threads on people having to override Chrome because it does not do hkscs, I've seen no such thing about uao
  682. # [20:13] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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  684. # [20:14] <kennyluck> annevk, for the @lang thing. A guy suggested that we might want to pick either big5-hkscs or big5-uao based on the @lang attribute, and I was replying and said it wasn't really help much because the in the list of urls foolip collected, there's only about 10% that has @lang specified.
  685. # [20:15] <annevk> kk
  686. # [20:15] <kennyluck> I think this idea is just not worthy.
  687. # [20:15] <annevk> which idea?
  688. # [20:16] <kennyluck> The lang idea.
  689. # [20:16] <kennyluck> annevk, by the way, I noticed that HK people use big5-uao too, specifically for Japanese content. I collected two examples in the link above.
  690. # [20:17] <annevk> good times
  691. # [20:18] <annevk> evolving big5 without coordination was such a stupid idea
  692. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> s/without coordination/
  693. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> s/evolving//
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  697. # [20:21] <kennyluck> It's easier to collect big5-uao content: for example the sequence \x92\xd4 is 実 in big5-uao, a rather common Kanji, and 琔 in big5-hkscs, which is a rather uncommon Chinese character I can't pronouce. So if you Google 琔, you get those big5-uao pages, and that's because Google decodes content as big5-hkscs.
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  699. # [20:22] <kennyluck> Well, a bunch of pages that actually use the char 琔, but a little bit that uses 実.
  700. # [20:22] <kennyluck> I haven't found a way to get big5-hkscs specific pages so I am waiting for foolip's work :p
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  705. # [20:28] <annevk> I think foolip is looking at .tw pages only
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  708. # [20:29] <annevk> pretty awesome he's helping out, he had a nice strategy for getting more content to study
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  714. # [20:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: emailed, thx
  715. # [20:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: (and now you know my uni email :P)
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  721. # [21:02] <annevk> zewt: you're not answering my question
  722. # [21:03] <annevk> zewt: my question was if there's anything that does not deal with CRLF
  723. # [21:03] <annevk> zewt: obviously the answer is not going to be Notepad, because that's all it deals with
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  734. # [21:39] <annevk> in a """ Python block \n still works?
  735. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Yes.
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  740. # [22:00] <annevk> ah shit
  741. # [22:00] <annevk> forgot to explain in my email why I limited things to 0x10000
  742. # [22:00] <annevk> btw, I tested some of the alternatives and none were really faster
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  744. # [22:01] <annevk> the problem is in the amount of data (just over a million iterations), not the individual aspects
  745. # [22:02] <annevk> oh sweet, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/att-0039/test-x-mac-cyrillic.html run directly
  746. # [22:02] <annevk> XSS galore
  747. # [22:02] <annevk> (I didn't attempt to do anything nasty though)
  748. # [22:04] <annevk> email itself: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0039.html
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  751. # [22:12] <zewt> annevk: um, you don't want to be writing CRLF in *nix, heh
  752. # [22:13] <zewt> a great way to irritate users (who, being the weirdos running linux on a desktop, are even more likely to notice and complain about it)
  753. # [22:14] <annevk> dunno if I ever noticed that really
  754. # [22:14] <annevk> maybe my software was too evolved; I mean, dealing with CR, LF, and CRLF is a major hassle
  755. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> Eww, CRLFs
  756. # [22:18] <zewt> anyone know off-hand if {a:1, a:2} is guaranteed in JS to be {a:2} (and never a:1)?
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  759. # [22:19] <annevk> zewt: per Web ECMAScript handmade dictionaries are ordered I think
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  761. # [22:21] <zewt> i mean, the second duplicate 'a' always clobbers the first
  762. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> Yes, it does
  763. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> See http://es5.github.com/#x11.1.5
  764. # [22:22] <zewt> (not terribly important, just affects how I answer someone's question)
  765. # [22:22] <annevk> oh sweet, the tests when hosted on lists.w3.org are all screwed because of some default charset setting
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  767. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Chaaaaaaaaaarseeeeeeeeets
  768. # [22:23] <zewt> as a random gruntly aside, MongoDB by design depends on the order of dictionaries, which makes me unhappy
  769. # [22:23] <annevk> I don't understand why languages don't have ordered dictionaries by default
  770. # [22:23] <annevk> I think Python might have something now, but no convenient syntax
  771. # [22:24] <zewt> well, it seems like optimizing for it would compete with optimizing for fast lookups
  772. # [22:24] <zewt> python has ordereddict i think, but without a builtin syntax it's cumbersome
  773. # [22:26] <annevk> heh ordered dict support used html5lib as argument http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0372/ it's in Python 2.7; I have 2.6
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  784. # [22:59] <annevk> welcome https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/4/13/180 o_O
  785. # [22:59] <annevk> via mpt
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  787. # [23:00] <zewt> where's that troll stench coming from
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The end :)