/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 17 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [01:03] <Hixie> !summon abarth
  33. # [01:03] <Hixie> anyone got IE10?
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  35. # [01:04] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1470
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  155. # [07:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: super awesome
  156. # [08:00] <annevk> mpt: http://www.mpt.net.nz/ :(
  157. # [08:00] <annevk> mpt: I was still subscribed
  158. # [08:01] <annevk> mpt: but not for "My Positive Thoughts" by "Mat"
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  166. # [08:28] <annevk> hmm
  167. # [08:28] <annevk> so Gecko simply does not have a iso-2022-kr encoder?!
  168. # [08:28] <annevk> <!doctype html><meta charset=iso-2022-kr><a href="http://dump.testsuite.org/url/query-dump.php?q=test&#x3066;">test</a><script>var a = document.getElementsByTagName("a")[0]; alert(a.search) </script>
  169. # [08:28] <annevk> yields utf-8
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  171. # [08:29] <annevk> Gecko: ?q=test%E3%81%A6 Opera/Chrome: ?%1B$)Cq=test%0E*F%0F
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  174. # [08:32] <annevk> well, I'm going to define one anyway, objections can go into bugzilla
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  181. # [08:58] <annevk> teehee http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#iso-2022-kr-encoder
  182. # [08:58] <annevk> guess I'll write a blog post about big5 now and call it a week :p
  183. # [08:59] <annevk> or maybe address some of those bugs / work on sniffing...
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  191. # [09:55] <nesta_> good morning :)
  192. # [09:56] <annevk> morning
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  201. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3Dutf-8%2C%3C%21doctype%2520html%3E%250D%250A%3Ctitle%3E%3C%252Ftitle%3E%250D%250A%3Cinput%2520type%253Dimage%2520value%253Dfoo%2520alt%253Dbar%3E&showsource=yes
  202. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> round 3
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  205. # [10:32] <annevk> it would be awesome if after "Attribute value not allowed on element input at this point" you had ", because type is image"
  206. # [10:33] <annevk> is that feasible?
  207. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> no
  208. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> unfortunately
  209. # [10:33] <annevk> okay, how about highlighting the value attribute line in the overview below?
  210. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> oh
  211. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> that's a good idea
  212. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> that's doable
  213. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> very good idea
  214. # [10:34] <annevk> pretty awesome you put some much into this validator man
  215. # [10:34] <annevk> authors are gonna like it
  216. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> well one part's that not so awesome about it is we've had this bug open for more than 3 years now
  217. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> or rather, I think it was at least 3 years ago that people started filing bugs about this
  218. # [10:36] <annevk> Encoding standard has been bugging me for about four years now I think :)
  219. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, it's nice to get some of this stuff done
  220. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> I should have fixed this a long time ago
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  226. # [10:56] <jgraham> So I'm behind. What's the latest state of callbacks in WebIDL (e.g. for event handler attributes)
  227. # [10:56] <jgraham> HTML defines interface Function with [Callback=FunctionOnly]
  228. # [10:57] <jgraham> But FunctionOnly doesn't seem to be defined in WebIDL
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  231. # [11:01] <annevk> HTML needs to change that to "callback Function = any(any...)" iirc
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  233. # [11:02] <annevk> plus something else
  234. # [11:02] <annevk> the nullable stuff
  235. # [11:02] <annevk> there's an open bug on HTML for that filed by me
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  241. # [11:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: are the actual ringmark tests on github? I only see harness code there? what am I missing?
  242. # [11:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: They are in a different repo. somewhere
  243. # [11:21] <jgraham> If you have the facebook blogpost open somewhere it links to both
  244. # [11:22] <jgraham> https://github.com/coremob/coremob-tests/ perhaps?
  245. # [11:22] <jgraham> Oh no that's the harness
  246. # [11:23] <hsivonen> right
  247. # [11:24] <jgraham> FWIW Tobie seemed to agree that the current way that prefixes are tested is broken, although I think we disagree on the magnitude of the breakage
  248. # [11:25] <hsivonen> it would be nice if the CSS WG rescinded the policy that leads to such breakage
  249. # [11:25] <hsivonen> so that a CG didn't need to figure out how to deal with the fruits of the policy
  250. # [11:27] <jgraham> Indeed. Sadly it looks like even money on that and hell freezing over
  251. # [11:27] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/04/big5
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  253. # [11:27] <jgraham> annevk: Over 9000 what?
  254. # [11:28] <annevk> search for "over 9000"
  255. # [11:29] <annevk> but also pointer/code point mappings
  256. # [11:30] <jgraham> Sigh, young people.
  257. # [11:31] <annevk> oh, I never watched that show
  258. # [11:31] <annevk> I just know about the meme
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  267. # [12:13] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Encoding
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  286. # [13:53] <annevk> smaug____: we can fix intersectsNode, no problem
  287. # [13:54] <smaug____> annevk: you mean Opera?
  288. # [13:54] <smaug____> that would be nice
  289. # [13:54] <smaug____> the current API is strange
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  308. # [14:26] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: do we need to allow parsers to abort for syntax errors?
  309. # [14:26] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: html needs that because it's incompatible with streaming, but css probably doesn't
  310. # [14:27] <annevk> validator might want it
  311. # [14:28] <zcorpan> "Conformance checkers are not required to recover from parse errors."
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  313. # [14:33] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: shouldn't there be a step using the charset of the parent stylesheet or document (that linked the stylesheet)?
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  316. # [14:41] <zcorpan> which svg attributes take a css number with scientific notation?
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  320. # [14:44] <zcorpan> "For example, scientific notation is allowed in attributes, including presentation attributes, but not in style sheets." is what i find in svg1.1
  321. # [14:45] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  324. # [14:50] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1475
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  326. # [14:50] <zcorpan> seems webkit doesn't support hashless colors in svg attributes at all
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  328. # [14:51] <zcorpan> i guess that's a good approach, but i dunno how it should be specced
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  332. # [14:52] <zcorpan> oh, actually, since the quirks spec only applies it to a number of properties, i guess it automatically doesn't apply to any of the svg attributes (unless they map to one of those properties or something)
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  348. # [15:26] <annevk> wait all of css is now in https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/
  349. # [15:26] <annevk> but they keep using dev.w3.org URLs?
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  351. # [15:26] <annevk> confusing
  352. # [15:26] <annevk> and getting the changelog per draft is somewhat hard too
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  357. # [15:31] <davidb> ygoat
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  359. # [15:34] <annevk> smaug____: fixed
  360. # [15:34] <annevk> smaug____: dom spec that is, not Opera :)
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  362. # [15:36] <smaug____> thanks
  363. # [15:36] <smaug____> Ms2ger can now update his patch
  364. # [15:36] <smaug____> or her
  365. # [15:36] <smaug____> we never know
  366. # [15:36] <annevk> CORE-45741 is the bug on Opera for those with access
  367. # [15:36] <smaug____> its
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  371. # [15:46] <zewt> somebody splitting a thread to title case a subject: one of the more bizarre things i've seen on mailing lists in a while
  372. # [15:48] <annevk> where is this?
  373. # [15:49] <zewt> webapps
  374. # [15:49] <zewt> subject Re: IndexedDB: Retrieving A Slice Of A Record Value.
  375. # [15:49] <zewt> somebody at opera, no less :)
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  378. # [15:56] <hsivonen> do we have a spec for generating a Document when an image, plug-in, video or audio file is loaded into a browsing context?
  379. # [15:56] <smaug____> is there any way to get notified when a spec changes
  380. # [15:56] <smaug____> (not whatwg html)
  381. # [15:57] <smaug____> annevk: like for DOM4
  382. # [15:57] <smaug____> hsivonen: I thought html spec defines that
  383. # [15:57] <smaug____> at least for images
  384. # [15:57] <smaug____> I could be wrong
  385. # [15:58] <zcorpan> smaug____: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/shortlog has a feed
  386. # [16:00] <smaug____> zcorpan: thanks
  387. # [16:00] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: "Otherwise, if the next input character is a digit, or the next 2 input characters are U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS (-) followed by a digit, switch to the number state.", is --1 supposed to go to the number state?
  388. # [16:01] <hsivonen> smaug____: OK. then I need to figure out what words to search for. (not "image" apparently!)
  389. # [16:02] <annevk> hsivonen: "page load processing"
  390. # [16:02] <annevk> "Page load processing model for media" in particular, section 666
  391. # [16:03] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: hashless looks if there's a comment between the "+" or "-" delim and the number/dimension/ident token, but your tokenizer seems to not emit comments
  392. # [16:03] <hsivonen> annevk: apt section number considering how bad readyState is in Gecko in that case
  393. # [16:03] <smaug____> hsivonen: I can't find it either
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  395. # [16:04] <smaug____> section 666 sounds evil :)
  396. # [16:04] <hsivonen> ok. so the spec allows adding random stuff to <head>.
  397. # [16:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: or, hmm, actually it tries to skip comments, so that's good
  398. # [16:04] <hsivonen> I expected the code I saw to be non-compliant.
  399. # [16:04] <hsivonen> but seems to be compliant!
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  402. # [16:09] <zewt> annevk: heh, good luck with sniffing, that seems like something implementors would be loathe to touch (since any change will doubtless break some pages while fixing others)
  403. # [16:10] <annevk> doesn't seem that different from any other change
  404. # [16:11] <zewt> the nasty part is that in some browsers (IE, at least), it's based on the user's system language ... doesn't matter if that's specced, it's inherently zero interop
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  406. # [16:11] <zewt> well, it's a lot more fuzzy
  407. # [16:13] <hsivonen> zewt: since the system language is IE's UI language, that's not much worse that Firefox's default behavior depending on the Firefox UI language
  408. # [16:14] <zewt> hsivonen: i'd phrase that the other way around: "firefox isn't much better" :) (don't recall how FF handles things off-hand)
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  410. # [16:15] <zewt> i think the big problem is going to be that no matter what heuristics are used, they're going to be less "reliable" for same-language users (users reading pages in their own language) than depending on the user's language, which will make it hard to get browsers to stop doing that
  411. # [16:15] <zewt> worth a try
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  413. # [16:15] <hsivonen> IIRC someone told me in Opera the domain name the document is served from factors into the heuristic...
  414. # [16:16] <hsivonen> TLD that is
  415. # [16:16] <zewt> heh, yuck--taking a document and putting it on a different website shouldn't make it stop working :|
  416. # [16:17] <zewt> but, well, heuristics are yuck by nature...
  417. # [16:17] <jgraham> Well opening it in teh same browser confiugured to a different locale shouldn't either, but…
  418. # [16:17] <hsivonen> I think using the TLD is less evil than relying on the UI language
  419. # [16:17] <zewt> lots of unmet "shouldn't"s when it comes to encoding compat :)
  420. # [16:19] <zewt> afk
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  450. # [17:32] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  484. # [18:51] <kennyluck> "Easter edition quiz! The CSS 2.1 spec has at least one easter egg. Can you find one?" refers to what?
  485. # [18:52] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  486. # [18:52] <kennyluck> (There are many errors in CSS 2.1 but none of which I would call easter egg.)
  487. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: Read his later tweet!
  488. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> I and dbaron and others point out some of them.
  489. # [18:54] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, ah. I should have done that. Thanks.
  490. # [18:55] <kennyluck> Well that one… isn't very entertaining either :p
  491. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> That's because you're an hollow, humorless shell of a person.
  492. # [18:56] <kennyluck> = =
  493. # [18:57] <annevk> that went dark fast
  494. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> ^_^
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  496. # [18:59] <annevk> Velmont: filing a bug on your server-sent events issue might be good
  497. # [18:59] <annevk> Velmont: dunno how much Hixie monitors public-webapps these days
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  502. # [19:14] <Velmont> annevk: It was just as much to also get discussion about it. Should I cross-post to WHATWG?
  503. # [19:14] <Velmont> s/discussion/some answers/ :P
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  518. # [19:54] <jscheel> hello everyone, I'm a little confused on the property attribute of meta tags. If I use the name attribute, the name is validated against http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions, but if I use property, it isn't. What's the difference?
  519. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Is "property" from RDFa or something?
  520. # [19:55] <webben> jscheel: Well, they're different.
  521. # [19:55] <webben> yes
  522. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> That would be why, then.
  523. # [19:56] <webben> jscheel: the design of meta@name fights naming collisions with a wiki. the design of meta@property fights naming collisions with namespaces.
  524. # [19:57] <jscheel> webben: so, I just want to have <meta name="company:property" content="content"> or <meta property="company:property" content="content">
  525. # [19:58] <webben> what are those?
  526. # [19:58] <webben> jscheel: What do you want clients to do with that markup? What's it for?
  527. # [19:58] <jscheel> webben: just custom settings that will be parsed my a decorator
  528. # [19:59] <webben> jscheel: Do you mean you're going to do something in your JS with that data?
  529. # [19:59] <jscheel> webben: actually, it will be parsed server-side. I am using html as a theming engine, sort of the way tumblr does it
  530. # [20:00] <jscheel> webben: for example, tumblr has this in a theme definition: <meta name="text:Disqus Shortname" content="" />
  531. # [20:00] <webben> jscheel: Well, either way, that's what @data-* was designed for.
  532. # [20:00] <jscheel> webben: hmm, that's true, they could just be data attributes on the html tag
  533. # [20:00] <webben> <html data-yourframework-company="whatever">
  534. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> Yeah, if you're just putting information into the markup that you'll use in some scripts in the page, use the data-* attributes.
  535. # [20:01] <jscheel> webben: I didn't even think about doing it that way
  536. # [20:01] <jscheel> that makes WAY more sense
  537. # [20:01] <webben> :)
  538. # [20:01] <jscheel> thanks!
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  540. # [20:06] <jscheel> webben: so, do multiple data attributes work the same way as meta tags? iirc, if you have two keywords metatags, the spec is to concat and uniq them. If I have two data-palette tags on the same element, should the be put into an array when accessed via javascript?
  541. # [20:07] <webben> er... i imagine repeating any attribute is an error
  542. # [20:08] <webben> jscheel: If you want to embed a list, I'd be inclined to use a simple separator (whitespace often works well).
  543. # [20:09] <webben> jscheel: @data-yourframework-palette="green red beige"
  544. # [20:09] <webben> commas is another good choice
  545. # [20:09] <webben> if you need a list of arbitrary strings, you could embed JSON rather than inventing your own format
  546. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Yes to everything @webben just said.
  547. # [20:10] <webben> @data-yourframework-keyphrases='["foo","bar","baz"]'
  548. # [20:10] <jscheel> webben: TabAtkins: here's what I've been struggling with: http://pastie.org/3805737
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  550. # [20:11] <jscheel> I'm trying to make it easy enough for a designer / front-end coder to use
  551. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> That first block of code seems fine.
  552. # [20:13] <jscheel> TabAtkins: so then just match data-theme-palette-* when pulling the content?
  553. # [20:13] <webben> pretty much
  554. # [20:13] <webben> (I'd add -yourframework- in to avoid collisions with random JS or whatever your frontenders want to include)
  555. # [20:13] <jscheel> webben: ah, true
  556. # [20:14] <jscheel> webben: TabAtkins: thanks for working through this with me
  557. # [20:14] <webben> yw
  558. # [20:14] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  559. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: If you see this later, that was a c&p typo. It's meant to be U+002E FULL STOP, not U+002D.
  560. # [20:15] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  561. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> I presume my brain was infected by the U+002D case immediately prior for recognizing a cdc token, and then I copied it up into the + state.
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  582. # [21:31] <rafaelw_> hsivonen: any chance you'll have a chance to evaluate dimitri's parser changes for <template>?
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  584. # [21:33] <jgraham> rafaelw_: (hsivonen probably isn't around right now)
  585. # [21:33] <jgraham> But I should look at those too
  586. # [21:33] <rafaelw_> Please do. I'd appreciate that. Do you have the email already?
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  598. # [21:57] <jgraham> It was sent to whatwg, I think?
  599. # [21:57] <jgraham> Or was there another more secret one? ;)
  600. # [21:57] <jgraham> Oh webapps. But thanksa for re-forwarding it
  601. # [21:57] <jgraham> I will try to look tomorrow; kind of late here now
  602. # [21:59] <jgraham> My first comment is "have you looked for people using <template> elements in the wild and not expecting magic behaviour?"
  603. # [21:59] <jgraham> Presumably this is quite easy to do if you are working for Google :)
  604. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> It's not easy, but it's not particularly hard.
  605. # [22:03] <jgraham> Well for the rest of us it is particularly hard, so if you are working for Google it is quite easy by comparison :p
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  607. # [22:07] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-pages.txt says 3 pages out of 130K have <template>
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  628. # [22:37] <kennyluck> I am surprised to see <html> <head> having the same number of occurrence.
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  642. # [22:58] <Philip`> kennyluck: That's because the URL is lying, it's counting elements instead of tags
  643. # [22:58] <Philip`> kennyluck: and the parser always inserts html and head elements
  644. # [23:01] <kennyluck> Philip`, ah, OK.
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  649. # [23:13] <Matt______> Would this be a good channel to ask a question about WebRTC? If so, is there a webrtc api for sending text/data to other browsers, and not just video and audio?
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The end :)