/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-20 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Apr 20 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:02] <TabAtkins> divya: No!
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# [00:19] <annevk> gotta love this email http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/msg02053.html
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# [00:19] <annevk> great timing too while I was away advocating usage of utf-8 at a local developer meetup http://annevankesteren.nl/presentations/1F4A9.html
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> Argh, ietf, y u use <pre> without manual line-wrapping?
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# [00:21] <TabAtkins> I fail to see how "pages will be broken even with a common standard" is any different from "pages will be broken because there's no common standard".
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> Or, more precisely, I fail to see how the former is an argument against a common standard, given the latter being true today.
# [00:22] <annevk> I'm not going to reply today, but he's saying some great future Claim Chowder stuff and in general ignoring my point that interpreting existing content is hard
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# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Claim Chowder?
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# [00:23] <annevk> I mean "Use Unicode." is not an answer if you want to decode a page encoded in euc-kr or gbk
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
# [00:24] <annevk> "There’s a term called Claim Chowder that was, as far as I can tell, coined by Daring Fireball’s John Gruber. It refers to when someone makes a prediction with an aura of certainty and knowledge that turns out to be horribly wrong."
# [00:24] <annevk> -- http://401stblow.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/claim-chowder/
# [00:24] <zewt> annevk: nothing validates microsoft-hatred quite as much as "this is broken, we'll never fix it, we don't care how much pain this causes the industry, go away"
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# Session Close: Fri Apr 20 00:29:17 2012
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# Session Start: Fri Apr 20 00:29:17 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:30] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [00:30] * Set by Yudai!~Yudai@p6567c3.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp on Sat Apr 14 01:19:49
# [00:31] <zewt> (not that they're the only ones guilty of that, like the webgl guy saying that he won't change typed array views to little endian in the spec regardless of anything anyone says)
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# [00:34] <annevk> Microsoft also would not do CORS or XMLHttpRequest Level 2
# [00:34] <annevk> at some point we thought they would not do anything with their browser anymore
# [00:35] <annevk> aligning quirks mode seemed out of the question too
# [00:35] <annevk> it's like they can't see the game long term
# [00:36] <zewt> (or else, the usual conspiracy theories)
# [00:36] <annevk> it's no problem, we'll just lead the platform with Presto/WebKit/Gecko and they'll hobble along later
# [00:43] <smaug____> dglazkov: what is setupEvent ?
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# [00:49] <annevk> heh, the other guy is questioning if I have the right to tighten up utf-8
# [00:50] <Hixie> annevk: the great thing about implementors who say they won't change at all is that it frees you to ignore their implementation
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# [00:51] <Hixie> annevk: it's equivalent to a (closed source) vendor having gone out of business
# [00:51] <zewt> annevk: ... but you're not, you're just writing a parser for something that is already (as far as I know) tightly specified
# [00:52] <zewt> it's not like you're making up new rules
# [00:52] <annevk> Unicode has options for the error handling, with a should for the variant in my draft
# [00:52] <annevk> Unicode also does not define all the utf-8 labels last I checked
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# [00:53] <annevk> and I'm not sure if BOM handling is identical
# [00:53] <annevk> and it's in a silly PDF
# [00:53] <zewt> that's sort of out of scope for the UTF-8 definition itself; you're just defining a bit more than that
# [00:53] <annevk> Hixie: yeah, although we have to reverse engineer them mostly :)
# [00:53] <Hixie> annevk: well that's about being compatible with content that relies on their implementation
# [00:54] <annevk> fair enough
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# [00:54] <Hixie> annevk: the arguments you're getting here are the same as the arguments we got when speccing the html parser
# [00:54] <zewt> (it's not like you're really saying "this is how utf-8 handles the BOM", you're saying "this is how UTF-8 works, and when used by browsers, we treat the UTF-8 BOM in this way")
# [00:54] <Hixie> annevk: and the same as the arguments about how living standards are bad because they are "unstable"
# [00:55] <Hixie> annevk: i.e. the assumption that the spec will not be of sufficient quality to actually beat implementations at the QoI game
# [00:55] <Hixie> annevk: that any change to the spec is by definition one that makes the spec worse
# [00:55] <annevk> Hixie: he omitted what I said in the previous email, but the HTML parser was my example, see http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/msg02050.html
# [00:56] <Hixie> annevk: i doubt this guy has any idea what we did with html, your e-mail probably way over his head
# [00:56] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
# [00:56] <Hixie> annevk: you can't really fault people for thinking that what we're doing is dangerous, i mean, for the longest time specs didn't try to match reality
# [00:57] <Hixie> annevk: people who haven't spent years seeing the recent changes to web spec quality are just assuming we're doign the same as everyone else, and changing things blindly
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# [00:58] <annevk> dangerous how though? to their job as expert about undocumented knowledge?
# [00:58] <zewt> blindly assuming that other people are doing things blindly
# [00:58] <zewt> there's no small irony in that
# [00:59] <Hixie> annevk: to compatibility
# [00:59] <Hixie> annevk: as in, if they implement it, their implementation will be of lower quality relative to existing content than if they did not
# [00:59] <annevk> I also find it somewhat funny he thinks my effort would be better put into promoting utf-8; I've been promoting utf-8 since before I understood how it actually worked, but still in 2012 browsers deal with encoding bugs
# [00:59] <annevk> Hixie: ah right
# [00:59] <Hixie> q.v. people telling me i should promote content-type. or xhtml2. :-)
# [01:00] <Hixie> or link headers
# [01:00] <Hixie> or namespaces
# [01:00] <Hixie> or...
# [01:00] <annevk> SGML comments!
# [01:00] <annevk> oh wait
# [01:00] <Hixie> indeed!
# [01:00] <Hixie> sgml in general
# [01:01] <Hixie> all these things i used to promote before i realised that our efforts are better spent designing resilient technologies than trying to educate the world :-)
# [01:06] <annevk> oh, I think I somewhat convinced :emk about the Encoding Standard
# [01:06] <annevk> nice
# [01:08] <annevk> oh, I should update my WebVTT validator
# [01:09] <annevk> it still has options implemented as single letters
# [01:09] <annevk> well, settings I guess they were called
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# [01:13] <Hixie> :emk?
# [01:13] <zewt> vim? heh
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# [01:16] <ojan> anyone know the state of moving eventtarget from being a mixin to a superclass in opera, gecko, IE?
# [01:17] <ojan> the webkit bug is stalled due to a resistance to moving forward without other browser vendors changing around the same time. :(
# [01:17] <smaug____> ojan: slowly in progress in gecko
# [01:17] <smaug____> XHR has that already
# [01:17] <ojan> smaug____: is there a bug i can follow?
# [01:18] <smaug____> and other objects should get the same behavior as we move to new dom bindings
# [01:18] <smaug____> ojan: not really
# [01:18] <ojan> smaug____: ok...thanks
# [01:19] <smaug____> perhaps slowly was wrong
# [01:20] <smaug____> but I think only XHR will have it in FF14
# [01:25] <annevk> Hixie: works on encodings among other things in Gecko
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# [01:29] <Hixie> annevk: cool
# [01:30] <annevk> ojan: you guys should make it easier to experiment with changes to be able to convince the other guys
# [01:30] <annevk> ojan: I think
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# [01:30] <ojan> annevk: that's true...we could put this behind a flag and just ship in in chromium for now
# [01:30] <annevk> ojan: we don't really have the resources so it's mostly Gecko that's bearing the cost of slowly fixing up the platform
# [01:31] <annevk> we = Opera
# [01:31] <ojan> annevk: yup
# [01:31] <ojan> annevk: chromium would be willing to ship it and deal with any fallout
# [01:32] <annevk> sleepytimes here, nn
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# [03:13] <isherman> Is there a handy way to print a stack trace when debugging WebKit code (outside of a debugger)?
# [03:14] <isherman> oops, wrong channel...
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# [08:01] <hsivonen> I'm bad at using Microsoft APIs. I make the same mistake every time with attachEvent: I forget to prepend "on" to the event names
# [08:03] <annevk> pretty pleased with Travis Leithead as editor for DOM Level 3 Events
# [08:04] <annevk> not sure if it's because he addresses my comments mostly the way I want or just the pragmatic way (via testing and by tracking all changes publicly) he does so
# [08:04] <annevk> hopefully the latter
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# [08:32] <zcorpan> why was this link not linkified correctly? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120419#l-604
# [08:33] <annevk> perhaps because the space after the link
# [08:33] <annevk> just a guess
# [08:34] <zcorpan> space after usually *helps* :-)
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# [08:36] <annevk> (e.g. "retarded waves" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler–Feynman_absorber_theory)
# [08:36] <annevk> well that was not it
# [08:37] <annevk> krijn: krijnh: URL regexp to fix ^^ fun times!
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# [08:47] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1481 seems opera doesn't have it
# [08:55] <zcorpan> although opera doesn't seem to use 13px as base size there
# [08:55] <annevk> replied to ietf-charsets
# [08:55] <annevk> what's next...
# [09:09] <zcorpan> "Our implementation of encodings WILL NOT change. Ever." - isn't that what microsoft said about the html parser too back in the day?
# [09:10] <annevk> I was thinking of writing a blog post titled "same code points"
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# [09:15] <annevk> done http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/04/same-code-points
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# [09:19] <annevk> foolip: kennyluck: so it sounds like we want to combine big5-2003 and hkscs?
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# [09:22] <kennyluck> annevk, yeah, to achieve the maximum pages that are correctly decoded, hkscs still has a bunch of allowance that can be tweaked (they currently map to U+FFFD), although whether tweaking a legacy encoding at this point is a good idea or not is beyond my knowledge.
# [09:24] <annevk> depends on the data
# [09:25] <annevk> jgraham: in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#indexes is "(as decimal number)" wrong?
# [09:25] <annevk> jgraham: should it be "as a decimal number"?
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# [10:07] <zcorpan> i didn't know U+0040 was called "COMMERCIAL AT"
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# [10:14] <annevk> why does IE not support URLs such as data:text/html;charset=ibm864,%A7
# [10:14] <annevk> oh well
# [10:15] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS (\) in 3.4.4. Double-quote-string state doesn't seem to support char escapes like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1483
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# [10:19] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: "Otherwise, create a hash token with its value set to the returned character." (hash state), what's the returned character?
# [10:20] <zcorpan> (i think both should use "consume an escaped character")
# [10:27] <AryehGregor> This is so, so, so, so true: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
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# [10:27] <AryehGregor> And for anyone who says "But Wikipedia is written in PHP!" -- I can assure you as a former MediaWiki developer that most MediaWiki developers hate PHP and wish it were written in something else.
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# [10:29] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/rev/94f075e5eabb yields 500
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# [10:31] <hsivonen> so does anyone know what I need to do to see document.readyState == 'loading' in IE?
# [10:33] <hsivonen> I didn't expect the spec and the IE behavior to be *this* far apart for a feature introduced by IE
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# [10:36] <[tm]> annevk: away from my PC. off to meet my daughter for dinner. will check it when i get back
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# [10:37] <annevk> http://webkitmemes.tumblr.com/post/18511335915/seems-easier-to-just-e-mail-anders-and-sam heh
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# [10:38] <annevk> [tm]: no rush man
# [10:38] <annevk> I remember there was a similar thing in 2004 or so where IBM had this really specific Gecko listing
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# [10:40] <hsivonen> this: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1052961695&count=1
# [10:40] <hsivonen> 2003 even
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# [10:41] <annevk> thank you!
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# [10:41] <annevk> I thought it was bz that had posted it
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# [10:45] <hsivonen> OK. This shows "loading" but no "interactive" in IE9: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/document-open.html
# [10:46] <hsivonen> no two browser engines do the same thing on that demo
# [10:47] <hsivonen> Gecko 14 and Chrome 20 do the same thing if you ignore differences in support for FrameDOMContentLoaded
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# [10:58] * Ms2ger grumbles at Opera's projection stuff
# [10:58] <hsivonen> ok. I added one more log() call after calling document.close() do show that Gecko and WebKit are radically different, too
# [10:59] <hsivonen> somehow, the Web works with this level of blatant differences in document loading
# [10:59] <annevk> Ms2ger: find me an easier way to write a presentation and I'll use it
# [10:59] <Ms2ger> annevk, oh, I like it
# [11:00] <Ms2ger> Only pgdn moves slightly too far down, somehow
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# [11:00] <annevk> oh
# [11:00] <annevk> sounds like a bug
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# [11:02] <foolip> annevk, kennyluck, I'm not sure about that, if Big5-2003 doesn't conflict at all with HKSCS that might work, but only cherry-picking from 2003 seems a bit weird.
# [11:03] <annevk> big5 -> big5-2003 -> big5-hkscs
# [11:03] <foolip> Also, the 2003 mappings don't actually seem to work that well for all the pages I listed, but that email is still in my outbox
# [11:03] <annevk> ah
# [11:03] <foolip> annevk, are you saying that 2003 is a strict subset of hkscs?
# [11:03] <kennyluck> big5-hkscs is certainly not a superset of big5-2003 last I check.
# [11:04] <foolip> right, I didn't think so
# [11:04] <annevk> foolip: no I'm saying that's how we could layer things
# [11:04] <annevk> but if big5-2003 is not actually that great that would not make sense of course
# [11:05] <kennyluck> foolip, yeah, cherry picking doesn't always work.
# [11:05] * kennyluck is waiting for that mail.
# [11:06] <foolip> kennyluck, tonight, it's on my computer at home :)
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# [11:06] <annevk> so what should happen for the encoder?
# [11:06] <foolip> if an authoritative (non-PUA) mapping for Big5-2003 exists it would be easier to figure out, it's hard to have confidence in a mapping deduced from relatively few sitse
# [11:07] <foolip> annevk, depends on the decoder(s), right?
# [11:07] <foolip> annevk, btw, your exchange with Shayne was a good read on the bus :)
# [11:07] <kennyluck> No, I think we should only do CP950 encoding.
# [11:07] <annevk> foolip: heh
# [11:08] <kennyluck> or a non-PUA subset, I don't know.
# [11:08] <foolip> does CP950 include HKSCS?
# [11:08] <annevk> no
# [11:09] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_950
# [11:09] <foolip> not encoding Cantonese properly when labeled as Big5 seems like a bad idea
# [11:10] <foolip> the question, to me, is if there exists another encoding than HKSCS that would work better for Taiwan or not
# [11:10] <foolip> Firefox's UAO doesn't seem to be it, not without modification
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# [11:12] <foolip> Figuring out how that ~UAO content ended up on the Web (using which OS and which fonts) would probably give some clues.
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# [11:14] <kennyluck> I don't think it's a bad idea to output as much numeric character references either, though I am not knowledgable about the security implication of a non-bidirectional approach.
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# [11:14] <hsivonen> Stuff I just learned: calling document.write will make IE9 start layout sooner
# [11:16] <kennyluck> foolip, For UAO, you just install the UAO package on Windows and you are starting to produce UAO content. I am more curious about how non-UAO big5-2003 ended up on the Web...
# [11:17] <foolip> kennyluck, does that UAO package include a font as well?
# [11:17] <foolip> perhaps looking at these pages using that installed will reveal something...
# [11:18] <Ms2ger> Hmm
# [11:18] <Ms2ger> Opera still doesn't support clamping for ImageData.data?
# [11:19] <hsivonen> TimBL is not Father of the Internet: https://twitter.com/#!/EU_Justice/status/193264746798129152
# [11:19] <hsivonen> s/not/now/
# [11:20] <annevk> is that a promotion?
# [11:21] <Ms2ger> He is now Al Gore
# [11:22] <hsivonen> I'm too lazy to reorganize my code to work in IE6
# [11:22] <hsivonen> now that it works in IE8
# [11:23] <hsivonen> "works" meaning that the logging code runs successfully in my readyState demos
# [11:23] <hsivonen> it's rather surprising what doesn't work in IE6
# [11:24] <hsivonen> either closures or .contentDocument at particular moments
# [11:24] <zcorpan> foolip, annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/encoding-labels/TODO
# [11:24] <hsivonen> so I give up on establishing a baseline that'd show both "loading" and "interactive" in any version of IE
# [11:25] <hsivonen> I guess I'll just move on to more complex cases now and conclude that IE is buggy even at baseline
# [11:25] <foolip> zcorpan, I can generate a list of URLs from the top million sites if that would help
# [11:26] <annevk> zcorpan: I think today I can start writing the detection algorithm, but maybe I'll update WebVTT first
# [11:26] <hsivonen> I think it's fair to describe an IE-introduced feature as buggy in IE when it behaves non-sensically and contrary to MSDN docs
# [11:26] <annevk> I'm also sleep deprived, so maybe it'll spread out over the weekend :)
# [11:26] <hsivonen> Stuff to test:
# [11:26] <hsivonen> 1) Normal external script
# [11:26] <hsivonen> 2) slow async script
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 3) defer script
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 4) slow defer script
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 5) slow image
# [11:27] <annevk> zcorpan: also, 1) thanks for the help and 2) I fixed some label typos in the draft and updated the Opera mismatch data
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 6) window.stop()
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 7) XSLT that works
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 8) XSLT that fails
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 9) XML that works
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 10) XML that fails
# [11:27] <hsivonen> 11) XHR
# [11:28] <hsivonen> 12) document.open() in mid-stream
# [11:28] <hsivonen> 13) window.location in mid-stream
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# [11:28] <hsivonen> 14) window.location.reload() in mid-stream
# [11:28] <hsivonen> What else?
# [11:29] <hsivonen> 15) Detaching the host iframe from doc in mid-stream
# [11:30] <zcorpan> foolip: i guess that could be useful
# [11:30] <annevk> CSS loading?
# [11:30] <foolip> zcorpan, don't guess, it would take 12 days to generate
# [11:31] <zcorpan> foolip: it'd take days to run the research too, but i don't have immediate plans to do it :-)
# [11:32] <foolip> zcorpan, ok, let me know if you need Bing results and don't wanna set it up yourself later :)
# [11:32] <zcorpan> so, wait with generating it until there's code to run the research
# [11:32] <zcorpan> k
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# [11:33] <annevk> what is the stability of WebVTT these days foolip?
# [11:33] <foolip> annevk, still undergoing tweaking, but I don't expect the basic syntax will break
# [11:34] <foolip> possibly line endings will change, but I'm not sure
# [11:34] <annevk> line endings really?
# [11:34] <zcorpan> <br> has been proposed
# [11:35] <annevk> is that why nobody is bugging me about the parser/validator or does nobody care?
# [11:35] <hsivonen> WebVTT: reinventing HTML one tag at a time. :-)
# [11:35] <annevk> because if it's still in flux maybe I better work some more on encodings
# [11:35] <foolip> annevk, I don't think the spec has changed much since you wrote it
# [11:37] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#parse-the-webvtt-settings has changed
# [11:37] <annevk> now there's "vertical" and such
# [11:38] <annevk> I guess I'll just add that in, should not be hard
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# [11:40] <hsivonen> Chrome behaves more sensibly with an external script present: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/document-open-external-script.html
# [11:41] <hsivonen> IE9 doesn't behave sensibly
# [11:41] <Ms2ger> News at 10
# [11:42] <zcorpan> annevk: did you fix --> handling?
# [11:43] <hsivonen> \o/ The external script makes IE10 almost sensible
# [11:43] <hsivonen> but not quite
# [11:43] <hsivonen> there's a readystate change from loading to loading
# [11:44] <annevk> zcorpan: probably not?
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# [11:46] <zcorpan> annevk: the spec changed at some point to always make --> start a new cue
# [11:47] <annevk> oh yeah I think I fixed that
# [11:50] <zcorpan> ok
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# [12:24] <annevk> fixed http://quuz.org/webvtt/
# [12:24] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/annevk/webvtt/changeset/f8c4f81a15a4 is the changeset
# [12:27] <zcorpan> oh yeah, iirc there's a bug on allowing a space after the colon in the settings
# [12:28] <annevk> enabling that would suck
# [12:28] <annevk> but it's not big deal
# [12:29] <zcorpan> not supporting it sucks for authors, imho :-)
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# [12:30] <annevk> changing the format all the time does too
# [12:30] <annevk> although this would technically be a compatible change
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# [12:54] <zcorpan> hmm, maybe encoding-labels/TODO should not bother with adjusting the fallback encoding, since if recognizing more labels means more content works regardless of what the fallback encoding is, that seems like a win
# [12:54] <hsivonen> now after lunch, I've made defer scripts on my list and I'm already finding shocking things
# [12:55] <zcorpan> (for pages that declare their encoding using one of the funny labels and it happens to match the fallback encoding for the majority of people reading those pages)
# [12:55] <hsivonen> this whole area may indeed be so full of uninteroperable bugs that we can fix stuff if we want to
# [12:55] <Velmont> ^^
# [12:55] <Ms2ger> Woo!
# [12:56] <Velmont> Many incompatible bugs => Goodie, we can fix it. :]
# [12:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: fix stuff if we want to? No! WE WILL NEVER CHANGE.
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# [13:07] <hsivonen> everyone likes having their browser locked while the XSLT engine computes n-queens: https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/HermannSW/entry/n_queens_xsl_xml14?lang=en
# [13:10] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah I think we should add cpXXXX stuff
# [13:11] <annevk> most of the ones Opera recognizes are ones that only one other impl does not
# [13:11] <annevk> although the microsoft-XXXX are dubious
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# [13:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: window.stop really aborts the parser in Gecko and WebKit but not in Opera: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/window-stop.html
# [13:20] <zcorpan> ok somebody needs to patch Lynx to support <blink>
# [13:23] <hsivonen> this is such a mess. window.stop() suppressed pageshow in WebKit but not in Gecko
# [13:23] <hsivonen> in WebKit, the parser aborts synchronously
# [13:23] <hsivonen> in Gecko, upon window.stop(), pageshow fires before DOMContentLoaded
# [13:25] <hsivonen> whoa. msdn search searches StackOverflow these days
# [13:26] <smaug____> hmm, what does the spec say about pageshow
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# [13:27] <hsivonen> smaug____: should fire after "load"
# [13:28] <smaug____> but what if there is no load
# [13:29] <smaug____> at least spec is wrong here
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# [13:29] <smaug____> no doubt, implementations too
# [13:29] <hsivonen> pretty much everything is wrong here
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# [13:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: Interesting
# [13:33] <jgraham> I am not at peak productivity at the moment due to installing a new OS to avoid dataloss due to impending HD failure
# [13:33] <jgraham> So far I am not impressed with the amount of time it is taking me to set stuff up, or with the last two years of ubuntu development
# [13:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: Mint > Ubuntu.
# [13:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: iirc they were doing some evil thing with their browser configuration. Also I like distributions that I think will still have a substantial userbase in two years
# [13:36] <jgraham> And, you know, I will probably eventually manage to make the launcher thing work in a non-retarded way
# [13:37] <jgraham> And figure out how to change the keyboard bindings that I don't like
# [13:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'd expect Mint to still have a significant userbase in two years, and to continue its current growth (mainly to the detriment of its upstream Ubuntu).
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# [13:44] <hsivonen> gsnedders: what's actually better about Mint?
# [13:45] <hsivonen> can I buy support for Mint? is there an equivalent of askubuntu.com for Mint?
# [13:45] <hsivonen> does Mint hibernate better?
# [13:45] <hsivonen> does Mint actually do proper regression testing of drivers?
# [13:46] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It seems less buggy, and the UI hasn't been bastardized.
# [13:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: how can it be less buggy if it's downstream from Ubuntu?
# [13:46] <gsnedders> I doubt at a low-level it's any less buggy, though, given it's basically just a set of packages on top of Ubuntu.
# [13:46] <hsivonen> is it Gnome2 or Gnome3?
# [13:46] <gsnedders> hsivonen: A lot of the GNOME packages are n't the Ubuntu ones, for example
# [13:47] <hsivonen> I actually prefer Unity over Gnome2
# [13:47] <hsivonen> I haven't used Gnome3
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# [13:47] <hsivonen> so it's like Ubuntu with vanilla Gnome?
# [13:47] <gsnedders> hsivonen: You have a choice of MATE (GNOME2 fork) or GNOME3, albeit with a fairly custom UI which actually is usable
# [13:47] <hsivonen> ok
# [13:47] <gsnedders> (I at least find vanilla GNOME3 really confuisng)
# [13:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I guess some perception of buginess is down to the fact they will delay releases more than Ubuntu do for critical bugs.
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# [13:52] <jgraham> Right, I figured out how to open the launcher thing with a key so now I can hide it. Now only the top menu thing is annoying. Well not only that but it's the thing I can see
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# [13:53] <jgraham> If anyone knows how I can bind a shortcut to "move window to other monitor" please let me know. I didn't see it in the prefs
# [13:55] <AlexNRoss> I have a question in regards to WAI-ARIA as described on the WHATWG HTML5 spec.
# [13:55] <AlexNRoss> It states that <ol> may have a role of "tablist", however the W3 Validator disagrees with this.
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# [13:56] <AlexNRoss> Can anyone determine if it is W3 Validator that is incorrect or if it is a mishap in the HTML5 spec?
# [13:59] <AlexNRoss> Example: http://pastebin.com/n5Z3LJ8L
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# [14:00] <[tm]> al
# [14:00] <Velmont> jgraham: I've moved my work machines over to Arch Linux. :-)
# [14:00] <Velmont> (or, am moving right now. Hate copying files, so disk-bound)
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# [14:01] <hsivonen> gsnedders: what's the business model of Mint?
# [14:01] <[tm]> AlexNRoss: validator not up to date with the spec. working on it
# [14:02] <AlexNRoss> Alright.
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# [14:03] <[tm]> AlexNRoss: please file a bug
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# [14:05] <gsnedders> hsivonen: There isn't one. The development is all done by volunters, which is somewhat disconcerting.
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# [14:17] <hsivonen> posted about window.stop() substitute in IE on StackOverflow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10245972/aborting-the-parser-from-javascript-in-internet-explorer
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# [14:20] <hsivonen> gsnedders: well, volunteer development works for Debian
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# [14:21] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I'm just a bit suspicious about elaborate $0 stuff without an obvious monetization model out of fear of the model being "you are the product@
# [14:21] <hsivonen> s/@/"/
# [14:22] <hsivonen> w00t. StackOverflow question already has an answer!
# [14:23] <Ms2ger> Woo, execCommand
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# [14:28] <hsivonen> Huh? "You can accept an answer in 3 minutes"
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# [14:31] <hsivonen> looks like the other engines don't support execCommand("Stop")
# [14:36] <zcorpan> that's a thing?
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# [14:36] <hsivonen> still more stuff to test before drawing conclusions
# [14:41] * zcorpan wonders if anyone knows the answer to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12998#c14
# [14:44] <zcorpan> anyone have a good idea for a new #csspubquiz?
# [14:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I sent email to people who should know
# [14:46] <zcorpan> cheers
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# [14:59] <hsivonen> why doesn't document.open() blow away "Text before script" here: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/open.html ?
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# [15:02] <Ms2ger> "If the document has an active parser that isn't a script-created parser, and the insertion point associated with that parser's input stream is not undefined (that is, it does point to somewhere in the input stream), then the method does nothing. Abort these steps and return the Document object on which the method was invoked."
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# [15:11] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: oh
# [15:11] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: thanks
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# [15:26] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/changeset/5f1a14c441c8 i'd use bold.appendChild(elementToHighlight) instead of setting innerHTML
# [15:26] <annevk> hmm zcorpan, http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/html5lib/inputstream.py contains encoding detection in Python
# [15:26] <annevk> not sure how easy it is to extract though
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# [15:28] <jgraham> annevk: Should be rather easy I think. But probably not that quick to run
# [15:28] <[tm]> zcorpan: ok, will change it when I'm back to my rig
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# [15:33] <annevk> so is the spec intentionally buggy?
# [15:33] <annevk> </x t="><meta charset=utf-8>
# [15:33] <annevk> prescan finds <meta>
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# [15:35] <hsivonen> annevk: unclear what's intentional and what's not there
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# [15:35] <annevk> hsivonen: are there open bugs in this area?
# [15:37] <zcorpan> <!----!><meta charset=utf-8> is not found
# [15:39] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't recall any
# [15:40] <zcorpan> annevk: "A sequence of bytes starting with a 0x3C byte (ASCII <), optionally a 0x2F byte (ASCII /), and finally a byte in the range 0x41-0x5A or 0x61-0x7A (an ASCII letter)" seems to properly skip attributes for your case
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# [15:43] <annevk> zcorpan: I did not realize that covered / as well, my bad
# [15:43] <annevk> thanks
# [15:44] <zcorpan> though supporting --!> might be slightly annoying because the dashes can't overlap with
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# [15:44] <zcorpan> but might still be worth doing
# [15:46] * zcorpan filed
# [15:46] <hsivonen> still XSLT testing to do...
# [15:46] <hsivonen> I've again forgotten what I knew about XSLT.
# [15:47] <jgraham> I find it very easy to remember that I know nothing about xslt
# [15:48] <hsivonen> oh and detaching the iframe
# [15:48] <jgraham> And reattaching it?
# [15:49] <hsivonen> I wasn't going to reattach
# [15:49] <jgraham> It seems that reattching is interesting in at least some cases
# [15:50] <jgraham> In that we have, in general, not related to readyState in particular, had bugs about detaching and reattching iframes
# [15:51] <AlexNRoss> hsivonen: XSLT is a complete waste. Just use CSS.
# [15:51] <jgraham> AlexNRoss: He is implementing the browser not writing websites
# [15:51] <AlexNRoss> Ah.
# [15:52] <jgraham> Although I think we would all be very happy if XSLT could be nuked from orbit
# [15:52] <AlexNRoss> Ya. It is less compatible than CSS, not as functional as CSS, and it is very primitive. In addition to that, it is for XML only.
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# [15:53] <zcorpan> can't it be used with html with the dom api?
# [15:54] <AlexNRoss> That and <blink> as well as anything older than HTML 4.01 should also be nuked.
# [15:54] <AlexNRoss> zcorpan: You're using an API? You can do anything then at that point to stylize things.
# [15:55] <Philip`> Please don't nuke <plaintext> yet :-(
# [15:55] <AlexNRoss> That reminds me. Whoever made Joomla! and jQuery should be tortured to death very slowly and painfully.
# [15:56] <hsivonen> AlexNRoss: that's not nice
# [15:56] <AlexNRoss> Their products aren't very nice and influences society in a bad way.
# [15:56] <Philip`> Less collateral damage than nuking, though
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# [15:57] <AlexNRoss> Like there is sites that use the jQuery API just to do a little bit of JavaScript. It has essentially taken away peoples' ability to do normal JavaScript.
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# [15:57] <Ms2ger> [Note: we do not condone torture]
# [15:58] <AlexNRoss> And doing it the normal way uses less processing and resources as well as less bandwidth consumption and faster load time.
# [15:58] <zewt> [Note: except when people really annoy us]
# [15:58] <Philip`> AlexNRoss: I thought it was more that it had taken aware people's desire to do normal JavaScript, since it removes some of the basic pains of JS
# [15:59] <Ms2ger> I'm all for jquery-hatin', myself
# [15:59] <Ms2ger> But be nice to the people, please?
# [15:59] <AlexNRoss> Hardly Philip.
# [15:59] * zcorpan finds out his latest quiz has a pretty low CORE- number
# [15:59] <AlexNRoss> And Joomla! it is the next level of CMS retardation.
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# [15:59] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, block, I guess
# [16:00] <AlexNRoss> CMS apps are for people who know nothing about programming to update their site, I get it. But Joomla! takes things to a whole new level of stupidity.
# [16:00] * Philip` doesn't trust anything with punctuation in its name
# [16:00] <annevk> zcorpan: that's buggy in Opera?
# [16:00] <zcorpan> annevk: you filed the bug :-P
# [16:00] * Ms2ger doesn't trust anybody with punctuation in their name
# [16:00] * Ms2ger waves at Philip`
# [16:00] * zcorpan doesn't trust anyone with numbers in their name
# [16:01] <Ms2ger> Me neither
# [16:01] <Philip`> Ms2ger: That's not punctuation, it's just a symbol to avoid naming conflicts
# [16:01] <Ms2ger> I mean, have you ever met me?
# [16:01] <annevk> zcorpan: you should have asked about display:list-item :p
# [16:01] <annevk> zcorpan: what's the number? :)
# [16:01] <zcorpan> CORE-1285
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# [16:01] <Philip`> If it was "'" then you could argue that it's punctuational depending on context, but "`" isn't even that
# [16:01] * Ms2ger whacks zcorpan with 915
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# [16:02] <Ms2ger> Philip`, I don't need arguments :)
# [16:02] <annevk> zcorpan: heh, long time ago
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# [16:03] <annevk> zcorpan: guess the CSS 2.1 test suite does not cover that then
# [16:03] * Ms2ger sniggers
# [16:03] <annevk> but it went to REC, mwahaha
# [16:03] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: 915 is still not WONTFIXed?
# [16:04] <Ms2ger> No
# [16:04] <annevk> classic
# [16:04] <annevk> heh
# [16:04] <annevk> Gecko still has a bug for full HTML 4 support
# [16:05] <zcorpan> heh, the last comment is funny since we now have an html5 parser :-)
# [16:05] <jgraham> Oh I thought that the ` was to indicate the Philip` was derivative
# [16:05] <annevk> "Bug 41368 - (robin's) Fails test cases in Robin's HTML 4.0 Conformance Test"
# [16:06] <AlexNRoss> Unless Philip` is meant to be <html>Phili&pgrave;</html>
# [16:06] <Ms2ger> With an "investigate more" from Hixie in the whiteboard, hah
# [16:06] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1996 longdesc has a [Hixie-P4]
# [16:07] <annevk> Bugzilla is a treasure trove
# [16:07] <zcorpan> maybe we should drop support for <col align> in opera
# [16:08] <annevk> you want our very own 915?
# [16:08] <zcorpan> yeah!
# [16:08] <AlexNRoss> IMO: longdesc is pointless.
# [16:08] <AlexNRoss> You can describe the image if it isn't there with alt
# [16:08] <AlexNRoss> Title is for a tooltip blurb.
# [16:09] <AlexNRoss> Not to meantion, there is also an aria-describedby too.
# [16:09] <AlexNRoss> Too many attributes for one thing.
# [16:10] <AlexNRoss> It gets redundant, annoying, and cumbersome.
# [16:10] <AlexNRoss> mention*
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# [16:11] <Philip`> Also, nobody uses it, and of those who use it, nobody uses it correctly
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# [16:13] <Philip`> Unsurprisingly, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30 is still an open issue
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# [16:17] <AlexNRoss> IMO: There should be a rule put down for browsers: Once something as been obsoleted by a RFC or by the latest HTML Spec, it should only be around for a maximum of 10 years afterwards. If sites haven't updated by that point, they're clearly not updated and shouldn't exist on the internet.
# [16:18] <jgraham> Homework quiz: work out if the e above proposal represents a stable equilibrium for browser vendors
# [16:18] <Philip`> AlexNRoss: There's no incentive for browsers to delete support for old features, since they've already implemented them and they'd prefer not to break pages
# [16:19] <Philip`> There's plenty of modern sites that rely on ancient obsolete features, too
# [16:19] <AlexNRoss> Philip, I realize that, but doing so also just feeds the ancient websites.
# [16:19] <Philip`> Non-trivial risk plus zero reward does not provide a very compelling motivation :-)
# [16:20] <AlexNRoss> Modern sites that use <plaintext>, <blink>, and <script language="javascript">?
# [16:20] <AlexNRoss> Philip: There is a reward: It then forces websites to stay at least somewhat updated.
# [16:20] <jgraham> That's just a thing
# [16:20] <AlexNRoss> It would make for a much nicer web viewing experience.
# [16:21] <jgraham> It's not a reward
# [16:21] <Philip`> I think Opera recently (well, a few years ago) experienced bugs on some modern heavily JS-based site due to its parsing of <xmp>
# [16:21] <AlexNRoss> Rather than seeing sites that use tables for layout and HTML 3.0, etc.
# [16:22] <AlexNRoss> <xmp> isn't a HTML entity.
# [16:23] <Philip`> Sure it is
# [16:23] <Philip`> It's even listed in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1866#section-5.5.2.1
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# [16:27] <AlexNRoss> Well they aren't in HTML5 spec anyhow.
# [16:27] <AlexNRoss> And I can see why they were removed.
# [16:27] <AlexNRoss> You have <ol> <ul> and <dl> for lists.
# [16:27] <AlexNRoss> Why would you need <xmp> and <listing>?
# [16:28] <Philip`> AlexNRoss: Search for "xmp" in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#parsing-main-inbody
# [16:28] <AlexNRoss> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
# [16:28] <AlexNRoss> Search "xmp". 0/0 found
# [16:29] <Philip`> That just means it's not part of the conforming language for documents to use
# [16:29] <Philip`> which has always been the case, since it's been obsolete/deprecated/etc since forever
# [16:29] <Philip`> Implementations are still required to parse it with special rules
# [16:30] <AlexNRoss> Essentially, you're just trying to protect ancient sites or sites that are so horrible that nobody would ever go to them.
# [16:30] <AlexNRoss> Example: http://www.lingscars.com/
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# [16:32] <annevk> AlexNRoss: it's important to preserve history
# [16:34] <AlexNRoss> Then you should work for a meuseum. Hell, I bet that meuseum's website is more up to date than Ling's Cars.
# [16:35] <Ms2ger> Well, no
# [16:35] <Ms2ger> His qualities are much more appreciated here
# [16:35] <AlexNRoss> The internet is vast and anything prior to 10 years from it's updates really shouldn't be around IMO.
# [16:35] <Philip`> AlexNRoss: <xmp> broke Backbase in Opera
# [16:35] <Philip`> which was an actively-developed site
# [16:35] <Ms2ger> Well, unfortunately you're pretty much alone there
# [16:36] <Philip`> (in 2007, it seems)
# [16:36] <Philip`> so it's not just ancient or horrible sites
# [16:36] <Philip`> It's just sites with crazy developers, which is pretty much the whole of the web :-)
# [16:37] <AlexNRoss> Ms2ger: You can quote me on this: Before 2050 comes, things like <plaintext>, <blink>, <xmp> and <listing> will not be supported by browsers and will just be a memory to people.
# [16:38] <Ms2ger> Sure
# [16:38] <Ms2ger> I will
# [16:38] * Philip` is happy he remembered there was some site it broke, but had to check the bug database to find exactly which one :-(
# [16:38] <AlexNRoss> And you'll see how wrong you are in 2050.
# [16:38] <Ms2ger> And you will turn out to have been wrong :)
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# [16:39] <Philip`> I hope we're not still using HTML by then
# [16:40] <Philip`> so all HTML that still exists will be legacy stuff
# [16:40] <Ms2ger> XHTML2! :)
# [16:40] <Philip`> and the sole purpose of an HTML browser will be to preserve access to legacy content that hasn't yet been ported to the new neural augmented reality data visualisation language
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# [16:41] <jgraham> What makes you think that language won't be built on top of html
# [16:41] <jgraham> It will be <!doctype html><html><script>new Reality()</script>
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# [16:45] <Philip`> jgraham: The new 4D metaverse will doubtless be designed by Facebook, and they wouldn't want to let browser vendors act as gatekeepers
# [16:46] <Philip`> Everyone wants full control over the platforms they're building on, and open standard multi-vendor HTML isn't a good fit for that
# [16:47] <AlexNRoss> Philip: Not a chance, Google will be the first ones on board for any new technological advances in web development.
# [16:47] <Philip`> Facebook will buy Google
# [16:47] <Philip`> (You can quote me on that)
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# [16:48] <Ms2ger> Hah
# [16:49] <hsivonen> http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2012/04/20/update-on-hardware-acceleration-in-opera-12 opt in. so that's what's been delaying Opera 12 on desktop
# [16:49] <Ms2ger> Google is the first on board to push proprietary crap, that for sure
# [16:49] <jgraham> Philip`: Pretty sure you are supposed to say things like that in the manner of roc i.e. "I predict 906a59544029a67d5fb6e92f1fd663a6"
# [16:49] <Ms2ger> Poor roc
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# [16:51] <Philip`> jgraham: By 2050, surely people will be able to break MD5
# [16:52] <Philip`> Better to be forward-thinking and predict something like e48dcff1e0a381cc99548d949f5dc4e3c042dbe01ebea140efbbac36aca541e453598dc5ea3467e71ad7119c0ce65b993c81884f97d23c618c7aa88ac6c6ef8f
# [16:53] <hsivonen> "We want to bring the first true hardware accelerated browser to market."
# [16:53] <hsivonen> nice way to spin Opera last into yet another Opera had it first. :-)
# [16:54] <Philip`> As in the first true Scotsman?
# [16:54] <jgraham> Speaking of Scotsmen, I hear gsnedders is no longer a teenager
# [16:55] <jgraham> So, uh, I hope you are having a happy birthday. Because frankly I'm terrified
# [16:55] <Ms2ger> Heh
# [16:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: happy birthday
# [16:55] <Ms2ger> Congratulations and stuff
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# [16:58] <annevk> whoa gsnedders is twenty now?
# [16:58] <annevk> congrats
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# [17:05] <paul_irish> \o/
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# [17:17] <hober> gsnedders: happy birthday!
# [17:19] <foolip> gsnedders, 25% dead, congrats!
# [17:19] <foolip> (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)
# [17:23] <Philip`> foolip: That's misleading since the stats are for the whole UK, not for Scotland
# [17:24] <Philip`> (e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12898723 says "people from the rest of the UK live around two years longer than the Scottish average")
# [17:24] <foolip> gsnedders, >25% dead, congrats!
# [17:27] <jgraham> In glasgow it can be even lower
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# [17:28] <foolip> Aren't we a merry bunch...
# [17:28] <jgraham> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15368400
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# [17:41] <kennyluck> annevk, I think when you are having those debates with Shawn Steele, you should be clear that what you like MS to do is to change the encoder/decoder *used in IE*, not the system encoder/decoder. I have the feeling that Shawn knows nothing about IE.
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# [17:45] <annevk> kennyluck: I don't want them to change necessarily; I'm just explaining my position...
# [17:46] <annevk> kennyluck: feel free to jump in though
# [17:46] <annevk> kennyluck: I don't have much more to say to him
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# [18:05] <foolip> annevk, what's the drama that got CC'd to the unicode list?
# [18:06] <foolip> I tested Opera, Firefox and Chromium yesterday and they didn't agree on F8 80 80 80 80
# [18:06] <foolip> but then I restrained myself from entering the debate :)
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# [18:13] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [18:15] <annevk> foolip: utf-8 changed at some point and not all browsers updated
# [18:16] <annevk> foolip: and Unicode allows several forms of utf-8 error handling
# [18:16] <annevk> foolip: Opera/Gecko are getting patched
# [18:17] <foolip> annevk, hmm, ok, no willful violation then?
# [18:17] <annevk> more like restraining and keeping all encodings in one spec
# [18:19] <annevk> foolip: see http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/msg02054.html
# [18:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: There are better stories about that. Highest and lowest life expectancies in Scotland are in Glasgow, about a mile apart.
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# [18:20] <foolip> annevk, mkay
# [18:26] <kennyluck> annevk, is http://www.iana.org/assignments/charset-info still the right info to get subscribed to the list? I did what it says but got no response.
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# [18:28] <annevk> kennyluck: maybe it takes a while?
# [18:28] <kennyluck> hmm… ok
# [18:28] <annevk> kennyluck: was your email body exactly "SUBSCRIBE IETF-CHARSETS" ?
# [18:28] <kennyluck> annevk, yes, and my Subject: was "subscribe".
# [18:29] <annevk> I guess that should work
# [18:30] <annevk> I no longer have any message to ietf-charsets-request
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# [18:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: But I bet the low life expectancy is amongst the poor and socially deprived. You're a student and therefore poor and studying CS and therefore socially deprived
# [18:40] <Ms2ger> Zing.
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# [18:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: But I live in Hillhead, which is one of the well-off parts of Glasgow.
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# [18:41] <smaug____> dglazkov: did you see my question yesterday about setupEvent
# [18:42] <jgraham> Two things 1) dammit I forgot to start sshd and 2) shouldn't you be either studying or partying?
# [18:42] <Ms2ger> Or both?
# [18:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: 2) just stopped studying :P
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# [19:07] <dglazkov> smaug____: oh. Sorry. setupEvent is just a helper that wires up:
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# [19:08] <dglazkov> smaug____: a) "onfoo" property for an event
# [19:08] <dglazkov> b) "onfoo" attribute for the event
# [19:09] <smaug____> ah, hmm
# [19:10] <smaug____> dglazkov: it isn't explained
# [19:10] <smaug____> I assume onfoo would be somewhere in the prototype
# [19:10] <dglazkov> smaug____: yeah, I think I added it after some conversation with someone.
# [19:11] <smaug____> dglazkov: why is it needed?
# [19:11] <dglazkov> smaug____: just to help people with setting up events on their custom elements. This is tricky stuff to get right and seems like a nicely repeatable set of steps.
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# [19:12] <smaug____> dglazkov: I'm going through this all now...
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# [19:13] <smaug____> dglazkov: decorator seems to be very limiter
# [19:13] <smaug____> limited
# [19:13] <smaug____> especially its event handling
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# [19:13] <smaug____> you can't know the actual event target
# [19:14] <smaug____> also listen() feels very heavy weight
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# [19:14] <smaug____> I kind of like the support for nested shadow trees
# [19:14] <dglazkov> smaug____: yep. That's intentional, since the decorator are transient, so we don't want to be reaching into the DOM that may or may not be there
# [19:15] <smaug____> dglazkov: I'm having hard time to figure out any real use cases for such decorator
# [19:15] <Ms2ger> Who needs those anyway ;)
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# [19:16] <dglazkov> smaug____: ask sicking. He really wants decorators. I am ambivalent about them.
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# [19:16] <smaug____> indeed. We just design APIs, we don't use them :)
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# [19:16] <smaug____> I want decorators, but not the limited way
# [19:17] * smaug____ waits sicking to be back from vacation
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# [19:18] * smaug____ still can understand, perhaps his English is just bad... vacation ? What is that
# [19:19] <dglazkov> smaug____: I think today decorators are the least stable idea in the whole Web Components universe.
# [19:19] <smaug____> right
# [19:19] <dglazkov> smaug____: the shadow dom has a spec, the templates have a spec, the custom elements I already have a polyfill for (and will start working on spec next week), but decorators...
# [19:20] <smaug____> custom events is another rather ... strange
# [19:20] <smaug____> createElement("foo").localName != "foo"
# [19:21] <dglazkov> custom elements you mean?
# [19:21] <smaug____> er, oops
# [19:21] <smaug____> right
# [19:21] <zcorpan> localName should be "foo"
# [19:21] <dglazkov> no, the createElement("foo").localName will always be "foo"
# [19:21] <dglazkov> you can setAttribute("is", "x-foo") to make it a custom element
# [19:22] <dglazkov> I have more of a problem with the "is" attribute, but Hixie and annevk argued strongly against introducing local semantics into HTML documents with actual custom tags.
# [19:22] <smaug____> per documentation createElement("foo") may create something else
# [19:22] <zcorpan> is there an .is IDL attribute that reflects is=""? (is that web-compatible to expose?)
# [19:22] <dglazkov> so I am going along with
# [19:22] <smaug____> var b = document.createElement("x-fancybutton"); alert(b.outerHTML); // will display '<button is="x-fancybutton"></button>'
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, it's called "was" ;)
# [19:22] <smaug____> so, local name is button
# [19:22] <zcorpan> srsly? :-)
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> No :)
# [19:23] <dglazkov> smaug____: that's a bug in the explainer.
# [19:23] <smaug____> aha :)
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# [19:23] <dglazkov> smaug____: :)
# [19:23] <smaug____> makes it a bit hard to review this all ;)
# [19:23] <Ms2ger> y u no right bugfree code?
# [19:23] <smaug____> I'm trying to figure out what I think of this all, and whether something should be implemented in Gecko
# [19:24] <dglazkov> smaug____: I started writing it completely bug-free, but somehow that didn't work.
# [19:24] <zcorpan> "var b = document.createElement("x-fancybutton"); alert(b.outerHTML); // will display '<button is="x-fancybutton"></button>'" wat?
# [19:25] <Ms2ger> Objection! Alleged x-fancybutton!
# [19:25] <dglazkov> this is a carryover from the custom tags idea, where instead of using is attribute, we just had <x-fancybutton>
# [19:26] <smaug____> ah
# [19:26] <zcorpan> i thought that would be an actual element called "x-fancybutton", not magically turn into a different element with an attribute
# [19:27] <dglazkov> zcorpan: I mentioned earlier that this is a bug in the explainer.
# [19:27] <zcorpan> oh
# [19:27] <dglazkov> zcorpan: there's even a nice button to file it :P
# [19:28] <zcorpan> i'm just leaving irc remarks to irc remarks :-P
# [19:28] <Ms2ger> A fancy one?
# [19:28] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: well... for some definition of fancy
# [19:28] <dglazkov> :)
# [19:28] <dglazkov> it might help looking over these:
# [19:28] <smaug____> dglazkov: how does element.content work?
# [19:29] <dglazkov> https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill/tree/master/samples
# [19:29] <smaug____> does it deserialize the content of element when used ?
# [19:29] <dglazkov> smaug____: is this for HTML templates?
# [19:30] <smaug____> er, template.content
# [19:30] <smaug____> so, yes, templates
# [19:30] <dglazkov> smaug____: it's spec'd here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html#template-element
# [19:30] <dglazkov> smaug____: it's an accessor returning a DocumentFragment
# [19:32] <smaug____> dglazkov: but when is that documentfragment created ?
# [19:32] <smaug____> and is it cached ?
# [19:32] <dglazkov> smaug____: it's created when parsing
# [19:32] <dglazkov> smaug____: and yes, it exists as one instance.
# [19:33] <smaug____> so, no caching ?
# [19:33] <smaug____> er
# [19:33] <dglazkov> smaug____: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html#dfn-template-contents-initialization
# [19:33] <smaug____> caching
# [19:33] <dglazkov> smaug____: yes.
# [19:33] <smaug____> " the code property must be initialized in .."
# [19:33] <smaug____> what code ?
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# [19:34] <dglazkov> duurrrr
# [19:35] <dglazkov> I clearly meant "content" property :)
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# [19:36] <dglazkov> filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16810
# [19:36] <smaug____> thanks
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# [19:41] <dglazkov> zcorpan, smaug____: also filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16811 for the createElement.
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# [19:47] <zcorpan> thanks
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# [19:49] <zcorpan> anyone know how to change the default font size in ie9?
# [19:51] <zcorpan> afaict there isn't a setting for it
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# [19:57] <zcorpan> ok so opera and ie don't have the font size quirk, so i'm commenting it out and hope webkit and gecko are willing to drop one of the font size tables
# [19:57] <Ms2ger> File a bug :)
# [19:59] <zcorpan> it's pretty bad that we don't have interop on <font size> sizes
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# [20:03] <zewt> what does interop even mean for font sizes? you'll always have user-specified minimum font sizes and other variations in the way
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# [20:06] <annevk> ooh
# [20:06] <annevk> is the stuff that makes monospace fonts render smaller in Gecko?
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# [20:07] <annevk> latest argument from Shawn reads as if he thinks we ought to implement ISO HTML
# [20:09] <zcorpan> zewt: ignoring minimum font sizes and assuming default font size of 16px, <font size=1..7> results in different computed font-size in opera/ie/webkit&gecko
# [20:09] <zcorpan> (i think webkit and gecko are the same)
# [20:11] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747464
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# [20:13] <zcorpan> annevk: no, this is about <font size=1..7> and css font-size:xx-small..xx-large having different results in quirks mode and standards mode
# [20:14] <zcorpan> though smaller monospace is something that needs to be sorted out as well
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# [20:16] <zcorpan> (the quirk doesn't result in different sizes for text where the default size is 16px because the tables have the same values for the 16px row)
# [20:16] <zcorpan> (whereas the 13px row is different between the two tables)
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# [20:29] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: in the introduction you say "ident" but in the algorithm you say "identifier"
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# [20:38] <Hixie> Philip`: when people argue that we shouldn't support old things, one thing to bring up is that one of html's other goals is to make it possible for archeologists 1000 years from now to implement a browser and view today's content as it was intended
# [20:38] <Hixie> Philip`: i.e. that it is preserving our heritage
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# [20:39] <hober> exactly
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# [20:43] <Philip`> Hixie: That doesn't seem like a very convincing argument for most web specifications, unless there was some effort to archive the server setups and databases of dynamic sites
# [20:44] <Hixie> i'm specifically talking in the context of the guy saying we should drop <xmp>
# [20:44] <Hixie> i.e. parser
# [20:44] <Hixie> it is indeed only particularly helpful for static docs
# [20:44] <Philip`> Currently the best efforts are just archiving the static page output (with archive.org etc), so any site that does non-trivial script manipulation is likely to break because of the lack of a server rather than because of lack of interoperability in the script APIs
# [20:45] <Hixie> yup
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# [20:45] <zewt> i don't find that very compelling; for one thing, i don't think it's every browser's job to support things merely for historical value, and for another, if that's really what someone wanted to do, presumably they could also install a browser from the same era
# [20:45] <Philip`> and for static documents, you can extract pretty much all of the information just by deleting all tags and looking at the text that remains
# [20:46] * smaug____ doesn't trust anything digital to preserve more than few decades
# [20:46] <Philip`> so future archaeologists will strip out most of the tags and stick the remaining text into an indexed database that they can analyse
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# [20:46] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: the dimension state doesn't append characters to the token's representation
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# [20:48] <Philip`> and archaeologists from the year 3000 are unlikely to get given the funding to implement an entire web browser, when they can get 90% of the value for massively less effort
# [20:49] <Hixie> annevk: the url query thing is specced in html iirc
# [20:49] <Hixie> Philip`: i have no idea if anyone in 3000 will care or not, or what their capabilities will be. i just want to make sure that they can do it.
# [20:50] <Hixie> annevk: oh nevermind i misunderstood
# [20:51] <zcorpan> ok made quirks mode use css3-syntax terminology
# [20:55] <Philip`> Hixie: If you calculate the economic cost of spending effort on future-compatibility now, and then add the compound interest on that over the next thousand years, that sounds pretty expensive and would need a good chance of providing massive value to be worthwhile
# [20:55] <Hixie> the incremental economic cost is zero since we need to do the work anyway to promote interoperability today
# [20:57] <Hixie> also that argument excludes the cost term for moral imperative
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# [21:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: jgraham: WDYT about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16807 ?
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# [21:42] <zcorpan> ok who'll be the first to write a text editor in webgl?
# [21:43] <zcorpan> because then i want to be able to change the blinking rate of my caret
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# [22:01] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I have no idea why I thought that in-string escaping behavior was different than escaping behavior elsewhere. I'll fix that.
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# [22:05] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: lemme know if quirks mode is bogus with the new text
# [22:07] <zcorpan> nice https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747485
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: The dimension thing is intentional - the unit, unlike the number, keeps track of all the input characters.
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> So you can fully recover the input (modulo escapes) from the representation + the unit.
# [22:08] <zcorpan> oh. ok.
# [22:09] <TabAtkins> What should I be reviewing about the quirks mode spec?
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see - you explicitly link into my spec now. Nice. ^_^
# [22:13] <zcorpan> fixed the dimension thing
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# [22:15] <zcorpan> maybe i can drop the "signed" thing now, not sure
# [22:15] <TabAtkins> Yes, number and dimensions parse a leading +/- as part of their token.
# [22:17] <zcorpan> and in case of identifier, it doesn't matter if it replaces the token because the delim token will mean the value is invalid anyway
# [22:17] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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# [22:19] <zcorpan> fixed
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# [22:30] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: "U+0027 APOSTROPHE (‘)" in URL state has the ")" enclosed in <code class="css">
# [22:31] <zcorpan> (and smart-quoted the ')
# [22:31] <TabAtkins> Ah, whoops. All occurences of that character do.
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# [22:33] <TabAtkins> Fixed.
# [22:33] <TabAtkins> And your quirks algorithm seems fine now.
# [22:33] <zcorpan> cool, thanks
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# [22:39] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I assume Opera would be happy to make the <u><font color> quirk apply in all modes?
# [22:41] <zcorpan> sure
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# [22:51] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Could you add a "Syntax" component to bugzilla for CSS? I'm the contact, spec is at at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/
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# [23:45] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: still one "ident" lurking
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# [23:51] <TabAtkins> Damn!
# [23:52] <TabAtkins> What section is it in?
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# [23:53] <zcorpan> 3.4. Tokenization
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# [23:53] <zcorpan> third para
# [23:53] <Yuhong> <kennyluck> annevk, I think when you are having those debates with Shawn Steele, you should be clear that what you like MS to do is to change the encoder/decoder *used in IE*, not the system encoder/decoder. I have the feeling that Shawn knows nothing about IE.
# [23:54] <Yuhong> AFAIK, IE uses the MLang library that is part of Windows.
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# [23:56] <Yuhong> Currently.
# [23:56] <Yuhong> There are several system encoders/decoders in Windows.
# [23:58] <Yuhong> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michkap/archive/2005/07/26/443375.aspx
# Session Close: Sat Apr 21 00:00:00 2012

The end :)