/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 26 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Hixie> TabAtkins: nessy claims in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16623 that block-flow is now writing-mode? Is that true? I thought we'd gone the other way around.
  4. # [00:02] <Hixie> maybe i just made up block-flow, since the first hit for [css "block-flow" property] is the bug in question
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  9. # [00:08] <kennyluck> It's been 'writing-mode' for a while now.
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  11. # [00:18] <Hixie> yeah i dunno where block-flow came from
  12. # [00:18] <Hixie> it was writing-mode back in 2001 or so already
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  41. # [01:24] <zewt> srt was chosen for vtt because it made a mistake that no other formats did? heh
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  44. # [01:46] <fantasai> Hixie: There was a 'block-flow' property in the interim.
  45. # [01:47] <fantasai> Hixie: or rather, proposals for it
  46. # [01:48] <fantasai> Hixie: The May 2003 CR of CSS3 Text added 'block-progression' in between closing LC and publishing CR
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  48. # [01:50] <fantasai> Hixie: also you got vertical-lr and vertical-rl backwards, if I'm understanding correctly
  49. # [01:51] <fantasai> Hixie: lr is Left to Right, i.e. growing rightwards
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  193. # [06:40] <manu1> hsivonen: I'd appreciate responses to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Apr/0128.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Apr/0129.html as your time allows (RDFa ISSUE-130 and ISSUE-132).
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  203. # [07:10] <othermaciej> manu1: how come HTML+RDFa issues are getting processed in the RDFa WG instead of the HTML WG?
  204. # [07:11] <othermaciej> manu1: should HTML+RDFa no longer be an HTML WG deliverable, since it is being worked on elsewhere and another WG is purporting to make decisions about it?
  205. # [07:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: looks like we shouldn't pretendthat it's an HTML WG deliverable
  206. # [07:15] <Hixie> i'm amused that the discussion in the e-mails above isn't about whether or not the technical issues are resolved, it's about whether or not they are substantive and how to record that.
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  209. # [07:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: I disagreed with the substance of some decisions, too. I find it annoying thasubstantive changes are downplayed as nonsubstantive in the DoC that gets shown to the Ditector
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  211. # [07:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, but that wasn't what the reply was about
  212. # [07:29] <hsivonen> that is, I think the substantiveness of a change should depend on what specs said and now say rather than what the WG meant when ispecced something else
  213. # [07:29] <hsivonen> *it specced
  214. # [07:34] <othermaciej> W3C Process does say that substantiveness should be evaluated from the point of view of a hypothetical reviewer of the spec
  215. # [07:35] <othermaciej> not from point of view of wg members
  216. # [07:35] <othermaciej> "A substantive change (whether deletion, inclusion, or other modification) is one where someone could reasonably expect that making the change would invalidate an individual's review or implementation experience. "
  217. # [07:36] <othermaciej> <http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#transition-reqs>
  218. # [07:36] <othermaciej> by that standard, it's pretty hard for a change not to be substantive
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  220. # [07:37] <hsivonen> the changes for sure affected the validator impl
  221. # [07:39] <Hixie> you two are so cute, acting as if the process is ever followed
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  226. # [08:04] <othermaciej> Hixie: I certainly don't have the desire to try to make other WGs follow it
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  237. # [08:30] <annevk> hmm I wonder when WebVTT will get the rest of the HTML entities
  238. # [08:31] <Hixie> i was wondering the same earlier :-)
  239. # [08:31] <Hixie> the ones we've added have clear use cases
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  245. # [08:47] <annevk> zcorpan: you still have some unliked [SELECTORS] [HTML] in your quirks mode doc
  246. # [08:47] <annevk> also unlinked
  247. # [08:48] <zcorpan> yeah i'll take a pass some day to clean it up
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  252. # [08:58] <Hixie> are string indexes in JS not lvalues?
  253. # [08:59] <othermaciej> what do you mean by "string indexes"?
  254. # [08:59] <Hixie> s[4]
  255. # [08:59] <Hixie> wait, are strings in js immutable?
  256. # [08:59] <othermaciej> js strings are immutable, yes
  257. # [09:00] <Hixie> damnit
  258. # [09:00] <Hixie> k
  259. # [09:00] <Hixie> you'd think it would at least throw an exception or SOMEthing
  260. # [09:00] <othermaciej> I do believe "foo"[0] = "x" will not throw, but it won't do what you want
  261. # [09:00] <Hixie> i can definitely confirm _that_
  262. # [09:00] <othermaciej> reason being that it theoretically creates a String object wrapper around the string and assigns its property named "0"
  263. # [09:00] <Hixie> jeez
  264. # [09:00] <othermaciej> the wrapper is then discarded at the end of the statement
  265. # [09:01] <annevk> mwaha
  266. # [09:01] <Hixie> so is there some convenient idiom for updating a string?
  267. # [09:01] <othermaciej> depends on what you mean
  268. # [09:01] <Hixie> i want to replace the nth character of string S with new character X
  269. # [09:01] <othermaciej> there's no way to modify a string value
  270. # [09:01] <Hixie> there's like six zillion ways to do this in perl
  271. # [09:02] <Hixie> ok how about getting back a new string value that i assign to the same variable
  272. # [09:02] <annevk> Hixie: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1431094/how-do-i-replace-a-character-at-a-particular-index-in-javascript
  273. # [09:02] <Hixie> seriously there's no better way than substr?
  274. # [09:02] <Hixie> jeez
  275. # [09:03] <annevk> but hey, next version of JavaScript might have classes and indexing by code point, it's a great language!
  276. # [09:04] <othermaciej> checking if there is a better way than substr
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  279. # [09:07] <othermaciej> I guess depending on context slice might be easier to use than substr
  280. # [09:08] <othermaciej> function replaceChar(str, char, index) { return str.slice(0, index - 1) + char + str.slice(index); }
  281. # [09:09] <Hixie> that's basically the same code
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  283. # [09:09] <othermaciej> true, I guess I might have an off-by-one bug also
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  292. # [09:36] <rniwa> annevk: hi annevk!
  293. # [09:37] <annevk> hey rniwa
  294. # [09:37] <rniwa> annevk: are you following the context free (i.e. insertion-mode free) parsing algorithm discussion on public-webapps?
  295. # [09:38] <annevk> just a little bit
  296. # [09:38] <rniwa> annevk: k.
  297. # [09:38] <rniwa> annevk: i think there's a consensus that it's a good idea
  298. # [09:38] <rniwa> annevk: but there's some disagreement as to what exactly it should do
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  300. # [09:39] <rniwa> annevk: particularly with respect to xml elements and whether parser should reject 'bad' html construct or not.
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  302. # [09:39] <rniwa> Hixie: maybe you'll have some opinion on this?
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  305. # [09:40] <annevk> I think you're wrong about jQuery's approach being wrong
  306. # [09:40] <annevk> it buys you quite a bit
  307. # [09:40] <rniwa> annevk: ok.
  308. # [09:41] <annevk> for instance <td> tags will not be dropped on the floor
  309. # [09:41] <rniwa> annevk: could you respond to the thread then?
  310. # [09:41] <rniwa> annevk: what do you mean?
  311. # [09:42] <annevk> if you do not adjust the insertion mode accordingly
  312. # [09:43] <rniwa> annevk: sure, but why do we want to adjust the insertion mode for the top-level element though?
  313. # [09:43] <annevk> by adjusting the insertion mode as Yehuda suggests this works perfectly for innerHTML on fragments
  314. # [09:43] <rniwa> annevk: isn't better to allow any top-level element?
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  316. # [09:43] <annevk> rniwa: that's how innerHTML works
  317. # [09:44] <rniwa> annevk: sure because we have a context element.
  318. # [09:44] <rniwa> annevk: but for fragment, we don't have a context element.
  319. # [09:44] <annevk> yeah but you can derive it from the first token
  320. # [09:44] <annevk> first tag token
  321. # [09:44] <rniwa> annevk: but if we have something like <frameset></frameset><p>hello, world</p>
  322. # [09:45] <rniwa> annevk: then we're going to drop the p.
  323. # [09:45] <annevk> sure
  324. # [09:45] <rniwa> annevk: why is that desirable behavior here?
  325. # [09:45] <annevk> if you do :root { display:none } your page won't be displayed
  326. # [09:46] <annevk> because not reusing the HTML parser mechanism is even worse
  327. # [09:46] <annevk> because then you'll have a new set of quirks and behaviors to learn, parsing becomes unpredictable, etc.
  328. # [09:46] <rniwa> annevk: we can use the html5 parsing algorithm for elements below that.
  329. # [09:47] <rniwa> annevk: i could be convinced that this is a good idea though.
  330. # [09:48] <annevk> I'm not sure what you mean by "elements below that"
  331. # [09:48] <rniwa> annevk: what i mean is that we can allow any element at the top level (i.e. immediate children)
  332. # [09:48] <rniwa> annevk: and once you go below that level, context is well-defined
  333. # [09:48] <rniwa> annevk: i just don't see why we want to deduce the context from the first element. that sounds very arbitrary to me.
  334. # [09:49] <annevk> how is it arbitrary?
  335. # [09:49] <rniwa> annevk: why not second element or the last element for example.
  336. # [09:49] <annevk> what's your use case?
  337. # [09:50] <annevk> well in parsing there are no elements until you start parsing, so you don't know what the last element is until you parse the first
  338. # [09:50] <rniwa> annevk: right.
  339. # [09:50] <annevk> e.g. if the first is <plaintext> and you parse it per HTML rules it there won't be last element
  340. # [09:51] <rniwa> that's a good argument.
  341. # [09:51] <annevk> first is very logical imo, especially for table templating which cannot work without this logic
  342. # [09:51] <annevk> s/this logic/this behavior/
  343. # [09:52] <annevk> you'd have to define a completely new insertion mode for what you're suggesting, have you tried thinking it out?
  344. # [09:52] <rniwa> annevk: oh, table should work regardless. because the alternative is to allow any element for the top-level.
  345. # [09:52] <rniwa> annevk: right.
  346. # [09:52] <annevk> <p><td><p>
  347. # [09:52] <rniwa> annevk: re: new insertion mode.
  348. # [09:52] <annevk> what will that do in your mode?
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  350. # [09:53] <annevk> something completely different from how HTML behaves today?
  351. # [09:53] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, those unbalanced pairs are tricky ones.
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  354. # [09:54] <annevk> Yehuda has put quite a bit of thought into this, had it tested it in the wild by millions of developers, wrote a detailed proposal for the HTML parser section
  355. # [09:54] <annevk> dismissing that without a good alternative in place seems unwise
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  357. # [09:55] <rniwa> annevk: oh where is that document available?
  358. # [09:55] <annevk> bug somewhere
  359. # [09:56] <annevk> let me check
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  361. # [09:56] <rniwa> annevk: that sounds very useful.
  362. # [09:57] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14694
  363. # [09:57] <annevk> I forgot Ms2ger assigned it to himself for some reason and there's no corresponding bug on HTML for Hixie to fix
  364. # [09:59] <rniwa> annevk: i'm not seeing anything Yehuda posted other than his spec patch though.
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  366. # [09:59] <annevk> that's a proposal no?
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  368. # [10:00] <rniwa> annevk: ah, okay. I thought he had written some documentation on "tested it in the wild by millions of developers, wrote a detailed proposal for the HTML parser section"
  369. # [10:00] <annevk> well he's on the jQuery team
  370. # [10:01] <annevk> and as far as I know wrote this part of jQuery which has been used by lots of people that use jQuery :)
  371. # [10:02] <rniwa> annevk: okay, i'll really appreciate it if you could post some of your arguments.
  372. # [10:03] <rniwa> annevk: since we desperately need responses from non-Google / non-jQuery people LOL
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  374. # [10:04] <annevk> mkay, after breakfast
  375. # [10:05] <rniwa> annevk: thanks :)
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  458. # [14:00] <annevk> heycam|away: are you taking a break from IDL questions such as http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012AprJun/0137.html ?
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  462. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> fyi, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public not responding
  463. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> working on it
  464. # [14:15] <zcorpan> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84469#c1
  465. # [14:16] <smaug____> zcorpan: good luck trying to convince webkit to drop support for bad features
  466. # [14:19] <zcorpan> thanks :)
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  468. # [14:19] <davidb> at
  469. # [14:22] <zcorpan> smaug____: i don't care so much that it's a "bad" feature, i mostly just want interop, and secondarily minimizing the number of quirks
  470. # [14:24] <annevk> heh, MikeSmith already reported what I was about to mention, good man
  471. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> :p
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  473. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> I'm told it should be fixed within the next 60 minutes or so
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  476. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> for appcache, does the spec define what exceptions/error messages should be thrown after the app-specific maximum storage limit is reached?
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  481. # [14:46] <annevk> zewt: my apologies for not reading your email correctly with respect to all "non-ASCII" as &#...; and removing all encoders
  482. # [14:46] <annevk> zewt: that is indeed not possible
  483. # [14:46] <annevk> zewt: e.g. passwords are known to rely on windows-1252 specifics
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  487. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: any clue why http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fw3.org is defaulting to XHTML5 validation instead of XHTML1?
  488. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> maybe this is a regression I introduced with my changes to the presets
  489. # [15:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think it has done that for some time
  490. # [15:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: xml mode looks at just namespace, not doctype
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  493. # [15:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: at first it defaulted to xhtml1 validation, iirc, but hsivonen changed it at some point
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  498. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK
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  507. # [15:47] <smaug____> "the end of the file being the four ways in which a line can end."
  508. # [15:47] <smaug____> I don't understand
  509. # [15:47] <smaug____> "four"?
  510. # [15:47] <smaug____> http://dev.w3.org/html5/eventsource/#event-stream-interpretation
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  512. # [15:47] <annevk> CR, LF, CRLF, EOF
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  514. # [15:51] <smaug____> annevk: well, the spec defines end of line ( cr lf / cr / lf )
  515. # [15:52] <smaug____> but ok
  516. # [15:52] <smaug____> or no
  517. # [15:52] <smaug____> end of file is end of file
  518. # [15:53] <annevk> I think actually we changed that to not make EOF act as end of line for security
  519. # [15:53] <annevk> to ensure you knew it was not an accidental EOF
  520. # [15:57] <zewt> annevk: pretty much what I expected
  521. # [15:58] <zewt> annevk: (seems worth suggesting the impossible now and then, in case my assumptions are wrong)
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  523. # [16:01] <annevk> zewt: yeah
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  526. # [16:02] <annevk> zewt: I like to challenge to establishment
  527. # [16:02] <annevk> the*
  528. # [16:02] <zewt> down with the man
  529. # [16:02] <zewt> or something
  530. # [16:03] <gsnedders> Is there anything that gives unserializable DOMs, or is it merely implicit from the parsing algorithm?
  531. # [16:03] * gsnedders wonders how to work that out
  532. # [16:03] <annevk> setAttribute("xmlns", "hahahaha")
  533. # [16:03] <smaug____> gsnedders: unserialized DOM?
  534. # [16:04] <smaug____> er
  535. # [16:04] <smaug____> serializable
  536. # [16:04] <gsnedders> smaug____: a DOM that cannot be serialized as HTML.
  537. # [16:04] <smaug____> but yeah some xmlns tricks may do it, I think
  538. # [16:04] <gsnedders> I meant a list of what is unseriailizable, not if there was anything, duh.
  539. # [16:08] <annevk> "Serializing XHTML fragments" has a list
  540. # [16:08] <annevk> not sure if that list is complete though, despite it claiming it is
  541. # [16:09] <annevk> oh maybe it is correct, it says "a node" rather than Attr/Element
  542. # [16:09] <annevk> kind of vague
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  544. # [16:13] <annevk> smaug____: so at the end of that server-sent events section it says this
  545. # [16:13] <annevk> smaug____: "Once the end of the file is reached, any pending data must be discarded. (If the file ends in the middle of an event, before the final empty line, the incomplete event is not dispatched.)"
  546. # [16:13] <annevk> smaug____: I think it still saying that bit about four and such is an oversight
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  548. # [16:13] <annevk> smaug____: I'll file a bug
  549. # [16:13] <smaug____> thanks
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  551. # [16:16] <annevk> smaug____: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16866
  552. # [16:19] <smaug____> what is Opera's UA string
  553. # [16:20] <smaug____> Opera/9.80 ...Version/11.62
  554. # [16:20] <smaug____> o_O
  555. # [16:20] <wilhelm> 10 is a difficult number.
  556. # [16:20] <annevk> it used to be beautifully short, then someone fucked it up
  557. # [16:20] <wilhelm> Or, it used to be.
  558. # [16:22] <gsnedders> Given we have to fight not to get bogusly UA sniffed on Google and FB, yet alone the long tail, breaking where we do get UA sniffed correctly is probably a battle too far…
  559. # [16:23] <smaug____> UA strings are hard
  560. # [16:23] <gsnedders> Hint: Opera Mobile 12 works fine with the version of m.facebook.com that iOS/Android's browsers get.
  561. # [16:24] <gsnedders> Maybe all browsers should just standardize on one UA string and be done with it.
  562. # [16:24] <gsnedders> Kill UA sniffing overnight.
  563. # [16:24] <zewt> gsnedders: you won't change the UA string, so why would anybody else :)
  564. # [16:25] <zewt> User-Agent: transistors
  565. # [16:26] <annevk> might as well remove the header then
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  567. # [16:28] <gsnedders> annevk: That would break too much. Going for something that looks like some current browser wouldn't.
  568. # [16:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: Know of anyone doing anything to constants.py, or planning on doing so?
  569. # [16:34] * gsnedders has huge unicode-cleanup patch
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  595. # [17:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
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  606. # [17:52] <jonnybarnes> So I was looking at the HTML spec on how to use cite with blockquote
  607. # [17:53] <jonnybarnes> and in the first example it gives with a figure element containing a blockquote and figcaption
  608. # [17:53] <jonnybarnes> the figcaption has </cite> tag that isnt closing an open <cite> tag
  609. # [17:53] <jonnybarnes> surely this is wrong?
  610. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> jonnybarnes: yeah it's wrong if it doesn't have a cite start tag
  611. # [17:55] <jonnybarnes> relevent section: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/grouping-content.html#dom-quote-cite
  612. # [17:56] <jonnybarnes> MikeSmith: who's job is it to fix the spec then? I have no idea how this works
  613. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> jonnybarnes: file a bug
  614. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> http://w3.org/brief/MjA2
  615. # [17:57] <jonnybarnes> can I post a bug about the whatwg spec to the w3?
  616. # [17:57] <annevk> yes
  617. # [17:58] <smaug____> hrm, implementing xhr.timeout broke some sites :(
  618. # [17:58] <annevk> W3C and WHATWG share some infrastructure
  619. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> W3C and WHATWG are blood brothers
  620. # [17:58] <annevk> smaug____: Microsoft's implementation?
  621. # [17:59] <annevk> smaug____: or people extending XHR themselves?
  622. # [17:59] <smaug____> annevk: I mean Gecko's implementation
  623. # [17:59] <annevk> smaug____: sure, I'm wondering why
  624. # [17:59] <smaug____> some scripts expect that timeout can be used with sync
  625. # [17:59] <smaug____> http://code.google.com/p/ext-basex/issues/detail?id=7
  626. # [18:00] <smaug____> but let's see how common this is
  627. # [18:00] <jonnybarnes> Looks like there's already a bug been opened for it
  628. # [18:00] <smaug____> I'd really like to keep all the new features for async only
  629. # [18:01] <annevk> the way people work around it is by not using timeout :/
  630. # [18:02] <zewt> doesn't make sense at all to fail outright in that case ...
  631. # [18:02] <annevk> with all those libraries nobody has any idea anymore what they're actually doing
  632. # [18:02] <zewt> at most it should ignore it
  633. # [18:02] <annevk> zewt: that's not consistent with the API
  634. # [18:02] <zewt> then the API is wrong, IMO
  635. # [18:02] <annevk> okay
  636. # [18:03] <smaug____> zewt: what API is wrong?
  637. # [18:03] <zewt> if you have an API foo(a, {b: 1}), and old versions of the API don't know about 'b', it doesn't make sense for new versions which do support it to start failing
  638. # [18:03] <smaug____> the JS script library API, sure
  639. # [18:03] <zewt> that was a crappy explanation of what I'm thinking
  640. # [18:04] <zewt> if foo(a, {b:1}) works in browser 1.0, which doesn't know about 'b' (and therefore ignores it entirely), it doesn't make much sense for browser 2.0, which now supports 'b' but only in certain circumstances, to start failing where it used to work
  641. # [18:04] <smaug____> you can't make that kinds of API
  642. # [18:04] <zewt> what?
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  644. # [18:05] <smaug____> we've seen plenty of problems when adding support for new APIs
  645. # [18:05] <smaug____> whenever a new property is added to any form control element, some site breaks
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  647. # [18:05] <zewt> if FF used to not support timeout at all, and people were specifying timeouts (perhaps for other browsers), you can't make timeout suddenly start failing--that's basic backwards-compat
  648. # [18:06] <zewt> ignoring it when it's not allowed doesn't have that problem
  649. # [18:07] <zewt> (i really don't understand why timeout wouldn't be allowed with sync, though--seems to me that's the case where you *really* need it)
  650. # [18:07] <smaug____> we don't want to make sync more useful in any case
  651. # [18:07] <smaug____> I have the plan to remove sync XHR in window context
  652. # [18:07] <smaug____> may take several years
  653. # [18:08] <zewt> i wouldn't put money on that ever happening, heh
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  668. # [18:28] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  671. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> Bonsoir
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  686. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, I know someone who's doing something with constants.py
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  716. # [20:38] <annevk> "By this estimate, most of the translation on the planet is now done by Google Translate. (We can’t speak for the galaxy; Douglas Adams’s “Babel fish” probably has us beat there.)" :)
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  723. # [21:00] <zewt> special thanks to google for crippling the translate api
  724. # [21:00] <zewt> making clear a lesson i thought was obvious from the start: you can never *really* depend on any free web api, no matter who the provider is
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  726. # [21:02] <zewt> apparently, a good html templating system for python simply doesn't exist
  727. # [21:02] <annevk> yeah I'm a bit scared with such APIs starting to be used for platform features
  728. # [21:02] <annevk> e.g. for geolocation
  729. # [21:02] <annevk> they also wanted to expose geocoding as a platform API
  730. # [21:03] <annevk> and voice web services are under discussion
  731. # [21:03] <annevk> not really sure if it's a good idea to ingrain those kind of things
  732. # [21:03] <zewt> it doesn't make much sense to me to basically bake web APIs into the platform as platform APIs; if it's available as a web API, and the consequences of that are OK for you, then just use the web API
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  734. # [21:05] <zewt> (not sure about the particulars of what you're referring to)
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  736. # [21:14] <annevk> I agree with you
  737. # [21:14] <annevk> I'm not really sure why it ever went there, convenience I guess
  738. # [21:15] <zewt> i'd find it an inconvenience (since it's just an extra layer between me and the real API)
  739. # [21:16] <annevk> maybe the idea was to do it all in a single request
  740. # [21:16] <annevk> for geolocation anyway
  741. # [21:16] <annevk> because getting your location requires wi-fi data etc.
  742. # [21:16] <zewt> well getting your location from system data is a different thing
  743. # [21:16] <annevk> so if the service took that kind of data and gave back the place name, that'd be nice
  744. # [21:17] <annevk> well it's system data combined with a network request
  745. # [21:17] <zewt> i mean, you can't get wifi/gps/cell tower location data from a web API; you need a system API
  746. # [21:17] <annevk> system data you probably do not want to expose to the web
  747. # [21:17] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  748. # [21:17] <zewt> sure you do (in the appropriately abstracted form)
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  750. # [21:21] <zewt> i guess the related risk is when the geolocation API uses a geoip web service as a data point, it falls over if that service goes away ... but I guess that's not really a problem with the API itself (since it's not specific to it), and it's the browser's risk
  751. # [21:21] <zewt> (which they're free to take)
  752. # [21:22] <annevk> if a browser doesn't use a web service for that it cannot guarantee good quality
  753. # [21:22] <zewt> mobile can, far better than a web service
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  755. # [21:22] <annevk> so in effect web services are now a required part of browsers
  756. # [21:22] <zewt> desktops generally have no options other than geoip
  757. # [21:22] <annevk> even on mobile you use wi-fi etc. to determine the position much much faster
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  760. # [21:26] <zewt> not really required, since it's not actually a required API--you can always just refuse all geo API requests
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  762. # [21:26] <zewt> if it was something more fundamental that would break everything if it didn't work, then yeah, that'd be a real problem
  763. # [21:27] <annevk> if you want market share it's required
  764. # [21:27] <zewt> nobody on desktops cares about geolocation
  765. # [21:27] <annevk> says who?
  766. # [21:27] <zewt> who says people do?
  767. # [21:28] <zewt> on mobile falling back on gps is typically fine (and if you're on mobile and that's too slow, you probably have to solve that at a platform level anyway)
  768. # [21:28] <annevk> dunno, but I've certainly used it
  769. # [21:29] <zewt> i seriously doubt lacking the geolocation API on a desktop browser would have a real impact on market share
  770. # [21:29] <zewt> besides, on most desktops all you're likely to get is geoip anyway, and people do that server-side whether or not you have the geo api
  771. # [21:30] <zewt> dunno if desktop browsers do wifi lookups on laptops
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  782. # [21:41] <Philip`> zewt: Opera does wifi lookup on my laptop
  783. # [21:41] <Philip`> (or at least it did when it first supported)
  784. # [21:42] <Philip`> *was
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  823. # [22:50] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: are you around?
  824. # [22:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
  825. # [22:51] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I need help with two things
  826. # [22:51] <othermaciej> maybe 3
  827. # [22:51] <othermaciej> 1) I would like to change the description text for the whatwg cg, not sure how to do it
  828. # [22:51] <othermaciej> the text that currently says "Community group around the HTML living standard and its related Web Application technology specifications."
  829. # [22:52] <othermaciej> 2) I would like to change the CG page to point people to whatwg@whatwg.org as the public list for the CG instead of public-whatwg@w3.org
  830. # [22:52] <othermaciej> 3) My W3C CVS access seems to be busted, I could use tech support or something
  831. # [22:52] <othermaciej> #3 is a bit lower priority
  832. # [22:55] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  833. # [22:55] <heycam> annevk, just been working on other things the last week, I'll get to it soon sorry
  834. # [22:56] <heycam> *last couple of weeks
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  836. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: gimme 30 minutes or so
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  838. # [23:00] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: ok!
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  841. # [23:05] <jgraham> othermaciej: CVS acces being busted is supposed to be a hint
  842. # [23:05] <jgraham> :p
  843. # [23:05] <othermaciej> a hint about what? that I'm fired from being a volunteer?
  844. # [23:06] <Ms2ger> Use HG
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  878. # [23:41] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  879. # [23:44] <Hixie> roc: is https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/webaudio/specification.html uncontroversial now? or is there some other proposal? i'm having trouble figuring out which audio proposal has the bulk of browsers behind it these days
  880. # [23:45] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  881. # [23:51] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
  882. # [23:51] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: To the best of my knowledge, yes, that's the one we're going with now. But roc should probably answer just to be sure.
  883. # [23:53] <Hixie> right... i seem to recall it was not always a given, which is why i'm questioning
  884. # [23:55] <Hixie> is anyone working on MIDI on the Web?
  885. # Session Close: Fri Apr 27 00:00:00 2012

The end :)