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- # Session Start: Tue May 01 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [00:00] <Hixie> well as defined i don't think it works but in principle i guess it could work
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- # [00:00] <Hixie> (i don't know what "must be assigned" means in this context)
- # [00:02] * carbonix is now known as carbonix|away
- # [00:02] <annevk> yeah the language in that specification needs some work
- # [00:02] <annevk> I was mostly wondering because WebSocket could do something similar
- # [00:02] <Hixie> not much point with WebSocket
- # [00:03] <Hixie> the only things that need to be given to the constructor are things that the constructor needs to do its stuff
- # [00:03] <Hixie> everything else can just be set separately
- # [00:03] <annevk> so that is the case here too
- # [00:04] <annevk> so you do have an opinion :)
- # [00:06] <Hixie> i think it's just a design decision
- # [00:06] <Hixie> i mean you could go either way
- # [00:06] <Hixie> same as whether methods should return the object they were invoked on or not
- # [00:06] <Hixie> i think it's silly, but other people think it's a great api design
- # [00:07] <annevk> hmm yeah, I have resisted adding that so far
- # [00:07] <annevk> sicking keeps pushing for it
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- # [00:17] <annevk> https://twitter.com/pornelski/status/197018755778351104 is brilliant
- # [00:18] <miketaylr> haha
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- # [00:19] <annevk> although I think the guy he linked to might actually be serious, which is somewhat sad
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- # [00:35] <tantek> Yeah, I think @Malarkey is being serious.
- # [00:35] <tantek> though I tend to wonder, is the "just implement -webkit- prefix support for EVERYTHING" crowd just a rebranding of the "Why doesn't Mozilla/Microsoft/Opera etc. 'just use WebKit' as their engine?" crowd.
- # [00:36] <tantek> WebKitist apologists as it were
- # [00:36] <tantek> (or insert web engine du jour/year/decade)
- # [00:37] <tantek> I remember when it was "why doesn't MS/Opera etc., 'just use Gecko' "
- # [00:37] <othermaciej> if anyone wants to use WebKit as their engine, we're happy to share :-)
- # [00:38] <tantek> the monoculture engineists have always been wrong from "what's good for the web" perspective. or they want to go back to the days of 90%+ Trident marketshare for some reason.
- # [00:38] <tantek> (maybe they're secretly Java-advocates trolling the web standards folks)
- # [00:39] <annevk> or Netscape 4 for that matter, which is why we have all that beautiful <table> parsing now
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- # [00:41] <cbright6062> The thing that bothers me about this is that all it's doing is allowing the Webkit elitists to win.
- # [00:43] <tantek> win what?
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- # [00:44] <Hixie> i like how that blog post says essentially "i have no problem with any individual member of the group, but i have a problem with the decisions the group made"
- # [00:45] <Hixie> as if groups of humans make decisions independent of the members of the group...
- # [00:45] <othermaciej> which blog post, Malarkey's?
- # [00:45] <tantek> Hixie, vice versa - sounds like he has a problem with the decisions of particular individuals in the group
- # [00:45] <othermaciej> it's well known that group decision-making can induce cognitive biases and result in decisions no individual group member would have made
- # [00:45] <tantek> = consensus
- # [00:46] <Hixie> tantek: he explicitly says that he has no trouble with individuals (See hit footnote 2)
- # [00:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes, that post
- # [00:46] <tantek> "decisions no individual group member would have made" is awfully similar to "least objectionable option" (AKA W3C's way of going for consensus)
- # [00:46] <cbright6062> tantek: Winning the right to call themselves the sole "proper" rendering engine. Which is only an opinion, not a fact.
- # [00:47] <tantek> Hixie, individuals other than the decision maker who made the decision.
- # [00:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's true that groups make decisions that no individual may make, but that doesn't get one out of responsibility for the decision
- # [00:47] <othermaciej> Is there really such a category of people as "WebKit elitists"?
- # [00:47] <annevk> well there was not much confusion at Opera with regards to what we had to do here
- # [00:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: (this gets back to one of hte biggest problems i have with standards work at the w3c)
- # [00:47] <annevk> it was pretty much universally hated though
- # [00:47] <othermaciej> I suspect people writing WebKit-only content are doing it out of lack of testing/support bandwidth, not to hep WebKit's secret agenda of winning
- # [00:47] <tantek> annevk - I don't buy it was "necessary" for all the border-radius props
- # [00:47] <tantek> that was a gross error IMHO
- # [00:48] <cbright6062> othermaciej: Well, I would say so, from some of the people I have talked to out there.
- # [00:48] <tantek> as in - prove it - show me the list of sites that are abhorrently broken due to dependency on -webkit- border-radius props.
- # [00:48] <cbright6062> I don't consider it a "secret agenda", just an unfortunate fact of uneducated authors which are driven by the web evangilists being overly in love with webkit.
- # [00:48] <annevk> abhorrently broken was not our criteria
- # [00:49] <tantek> "doesn't quite look as pretty" ?!?
- # [00:49] <annevk> as it turns out users and clients care about that
- # [00:49] * tantek waits for Opera to mimic Webkit into looking the same on http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/
- # [00:50] <zewt> does breakage only matter if it's a mushroom cloud? heh
- # [00:50] <cbright6062> Honestly, I think the Web Browser world in general has become somewhat of a mess.
- # [00:51] <annevk> has become?
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- # [00:51] <cbright6062> Well, has re-become.
- # [00:52] <cbright6062> I personally thought the IE/Firefox era of the majority of the 2000s was fairly stable in the long run.
- # [00:52] <cbright6062> Now, things are all over the place.
- # [00:52] <Hixie> tantek: dude that page looks the exact same to me on every browser i tested (three engines so far)
- # [00:55] <othermaciej> is that the joke?
- # [00:56] <cbright6062> Honestly, I really hope someday to see Web Browsers finally reach a point where it can be based off of preference only, not having to evangilize that one is "better" than the other due to web rendering abilities.
- # [00:56] <karlcow> for things like box-shadow https://github.com/miketaylr/Snort/blob/master/snort.yml#L1263
- # [00:56] <tantek> no when launched that site looked different in every browser
- # [00:56] <tantek> a bit surprised that that has changed
- # [00:57] <tantek> engines will always have different rendering abilities, so long as the web is evolving
- # [00:57] <tantek> i
- # [00:57] <tantek> f th
- # [00:57] <tantek> e
- # [00:57] <tantek>
- # [00:57] <zewt> i can't remember the last time any site looked notably different in any browser than any other browser; that hasn't been a factor in which browser I use in years
- # [00:57] <othermaciej> cbright6062: I think that will never happen
- # [00:57] <cbright6062> I know. It's sad.
- # [00:57] <tantek> if they all have the same rendering abilities, and that's stopped changing, then the web is dead
- # [00:57] <zewt> othermaciej: no, it happened long ago :)
- # [00:58] <zewt> i can't remember the last time I had a page not render reasonably in one browser and having to use another
- # [00:58] <cbright6062> I've never really had that issue, either.
- # [00:58] <cbright6062> Not since the Netscape days anyway.
- # [00:59] <zewt> seems like a non-issue for users, so it should be a useless thing to try to evangelize
- # [00:59] <karlcow> zewt: your tolerance to differences might be higher. Mine is quite high too.
- # [00:59] <othermaciej> unfortunately on mobile it's pretty common for sites to be broken in browsers with nontrivial share
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- # [00:59] <zewt> well, mobile is its own mess
- # [00:59] <karlcow> I wish transition was not implemented at all ;) I like things which don't make me motion sick ☺
- # [01:00] <cbright6062> I will say what I think part of the problem with mobile is:
- # [01:00] <cbright6062> and part of why I think people have a webkit mindset.
- # [01:00] <cbright6062> if going by end users is any idea of what the world has become line:
- # [01:00] <cbright6062> like*
- # [01:01] <cbright6062> "Smart Phones have a little i at the start of it...or they're that droid thing or whatever it's called."
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- # [01:01] <bga_> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6585.txt
- # [01:01] <cbright6062> Yes, I have seen both end users and developers alike who either believe, or act like, iOS (and maybe Android) are the only Mobile devices in existance.
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- # [01:02] <karlcow> cbright6062: silicon valley is sooo far from Africa and Asia ;)
- # [01:02] <cbright6062> karlcow: ?
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- # [01:04] <karlcow> if some devs think that iOS/Android are the only mobile phones possible, I would say they do not travel enough. (Or more likely, I guess, they don't care about the business model for users without those)
- # [01:04] <annevk> they're pretty common in Asia these days too, dunno about Africa
- # [01:05] <karlcow> Though the last few days, I have been impressed by the number of "misconceptions" about CSS. ☺ which I guess is a kind of reality.
- # [01:05] <karlcow> annevk: look at the market share of Opera Mini in Africa
- # [01:05] <zewt> (why are you sending unicode smiley faces over IRC? heh)
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- # [01:06] <karlcow> http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_browser-af-monthly-201103-201203
- # [01:06] <zewt> i had to paste into another app just to figure out what that was (looks like © in this window)
- # [01:06] <karlcow> heh zewt. Why not, it is part of utf-8
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- # [01:07] <karlcow> it reminds me 20 years ago with the controversy about accent such as é on Usenet ☺
- # [01:07] <annevk> part of Unicode
- # [01:08] <karlcow> I sent → arrows too, and ♥ hearts :)
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- # [01:09] <annevk> 💩
- # [01:12] <karlcow> annevk: that is my favorite!
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- # [01:20] <jwalden> people are aware of <https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts>, right?
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- # [01:21] <zewt> heh, gnu grep is still hopelessly broken when it comes to character ranges and unicode
- # [01:21] <karlcow> jwalden: I guess I do not get the joke.
- # [01:21] <annevk> jwalden: yeah loving it
- # [01:21] <zewt> in en_US.UTF-8, [A-Z] matches "i" and "j", but not "a" (and it shouldn't match any of them) :|
- # [01:21] <jwalden> what's not to get? take Unicode characters, rename them in amusing ways :-)
- # [01:22] <jwalden> sort of a dig at Unicode for having so many characters for so much esoterica, but not all that seriously
- # [01:22] <karlcow> aaaah got it
- # [01:24] <annevk> still have to submit MAN WITH BAZOOKA
- # [01:24] <hober> ROTATED HEAVY MAN WITH BAZOOKA
- # [01:25] * karlcow should submit 💩 as PILE OF POO
- # [01:27] <annevk> karlcow: but that's not fake
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- # [01:27] <hober> U+1F4A9
- # [01:27] <karlcow> annevk: I think the irony has been lost :)
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- # [01:30] <karlcow> ﷺ
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- # [01:32] <jwalden> karlcow: https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts/WVCgkLVGUZe
- # [01:33] <karlcow> ah italian ice cream
- # [01:33] <karlcow> just need a cup and a composition character
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- # [01:52] <kennyluck> The Web is alive as long as the amount of useful content is increasing. Driving standards (probably) helps but I don't think it's necessary.
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- # [03:54] <TabAtkins_> "utf-eight"
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- # [04:00] <cbright6062> Hixie: I have finished that blog topic I had mentioned writing. What do I do now? Post it here?
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- # [05:37] <Hixie> cbright6062: ping annevk, he's more up on the blog than i am
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- # [05:57] <annevk> cbright6062: I can give you an account
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- # [05:58] <annevk> cbright6062: could you email your post to annevk@opera.com ?
- # [05:58] <annevk> cbright6062: if there's nothing weird I'll set you up
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- # [06:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: how was the Notification meeting?
- # [06:09] <annevk> went well I think
- # [06:09] <annevk> posted a summary on the list
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- # [06:12] <MikeSmith> k
- # [06:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, have you looked at the Web Performance specs lately? plh tells me they are transitioning a bunch of them
- # [06:25] <MikeSmith> I remember you had commented on some of them before
- # [06:26] <MikeSmith> might be worth going back and checking to see whether they actually responded to your comments
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- # [06:46] <nessy> somdbody's doing spring cleaning!
- # [06:47] <nessy> MikeSmith: is any F2F action happening yet?
- # [06:48] <MikeSmith> nope
- # [06:48] <MikeSmith> not for another 12 hours or so
- # [06:48] <nessy> ah good
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- # [07:12] <MikeSmith> annevk: you want a ride tomorrow?
- # [07:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: I guess I should, but that group kind of gives the same vibe as geolocation
- # [07:12] <MikeSmith> yeah
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- # [07:16] <annevk> MikeSmith: it looks walkable... I kind of want to try walking
- # [07:16] <MikeSmith> ok
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- # [07:16] <MikeSmith> my an plh going there pretty early anyway
- # [07:16] <MikeSmith> 8am
- # [07:17] <annevk> ow
- # [07:17] <annevk> might have to do the same in case the walking fails :p
- # [07:18] <annevk> in other news, just finished Half-Life 2
- # [07:18] <annevk> cool game
- # [07:20] <MikeSmith> does Valve make any web-based games/
- # [07:21] <annevk> haven't seen any
- # [07:21] <annevk> can't believe I never picked up on this before, still have Episode 1 & 2, and Portal 2
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- # [07:22] <annevk> and maybe then they'll release whatever /r/gaming/ gets worked up about every other day
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- # [08:11] <Hixie> (btw turns out i actually won't be around tomorrow, should be back wednesday)
- # [08:12] <tantek> Enjoy May Day!
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- # [09:42] * timeless is in Sunnyvale
- # [09:43] * timeless wonders where annevk / mikesmith are staying
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- # [10:15] <othermaciej> hello timeless!
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- # [10:28] <timeless> hi othermaciej
- # [10:29] * timeless discovers which channel/network this is and decides it's time to sleep
- # [10:29] * timeless has to wake up today and catch a cab or something
- # [10:29] <timeless> see people in <8 hours
- # [10:30] <othermaciej> later
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- # [12:07] <AryehGregor> So in the Google Groups discussion I was just reading, 1) back/forward work in some crazy way I don't understand (they didn't act as inverses), 2) the place I'm scrolled to in the page isn't preserved on back/forward, 3) when I got to the end of the page it refused to let me scroll down and I have no idea why because there's no visible scrollbar.
- # [12:07] <AryehGregor> Yay for HTML5!
- # [12:08] <AryehGregor> Finally allowing us to create hard-to-use pages that ignore all established UI conventions but are fully standards-compliant!
- # [12:08] <AryehGregor> I guess it would have been even worse without all the new APIs . . .
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- # [12:17] <AryehGregor> At least back and forward *sort of* work.
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- # [14:20] <annevk> timeless: "quality" inn
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- # [15:35] <annevk> there might actually be an observable difference too between just tokenizing and using an insertion mode
- # [15:35] <annevk> consider e.g. "test<tr>" as input
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- # [15:58] <gsnedders> More extreme given foreign content and breaking out of it.
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- # [15:59] <annevk> example?
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- # [16:11] <gsnedders> annevk: No, too close to exam time :P
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- # [16:37] <gsnedders> Loading a page from cache, if it wasa originally sent with Set-Cookie, will that cookie be set again on cache load?
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- # [16:56] <annevk> gsnedders: exams
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- # [18:28] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
- # [18:28] <dglazkov> where's Ms2ger?
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- # [18:32] <MikeSmith> timeless, staying at best western, 2300 el camino
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- # [18:36] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
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- # [19:15] <cbright6062> annevk: You around?
- # [19:16] <annevk> yeah
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- # [19:22] <cbright6062> annevk: Watch for an email from me.
- # [19:22] <MikeSmith> is https://twitter.com/#!/tabatkins/status/197373135153147906 an IETF troll
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- # [19:25] <cbright6062> annevk: Sent.
- # [19:27] <annevk> thanks
- # [19:27] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: Well, that too.
- # [19:28] <annevk> cbright6062: okay looks fine
- # [19:28] <annevk> let me get you an account
- # [19:28] <cbright6062> annevk: Thanks.
- # [19:29] <annevk> password will be emailed to you
- # [19:29] <cbright6062> okay
- # [19:30] <annevk> let me know if something does not work out
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- # [19:33] <dglazkov> dinosaurs rock
- # [19:37] <timeless> !summon ms2ger
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- # [19:46] <annevk> dglazkov: you should look at your normative requirements in the Shadow DOM spec
- # [19:46] <annevk> dglazkov: e.g. the bit about the constructor has no normative requirements
- # [19:47] <annevk> dglazkov: while I guess you want implementations to do something with the constructor
- # [19:47] <dglazkov> annevk: can you file a bug? I don't want to forget this.
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- # [19:49] <annevk> dglazkov: done
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- # [19:49] <dglazkov> annevk++
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- # [20:26] <cbright6062> and posted.
- # [20:27] <annevk> cbright6062: can you adjust the heading levels maybe?
- # [20:28] <annevk> cbright6062: blog post itself is h2, anything inside ought to be h3 or lower
- # [20:28] <cbright6062> okay
- # [20:29] <cbright6062> fixed.
- # [20:31] <cbright6062> annevk: I was just following the standard I've learned for heading levels. Fixed though, since you seem to use a different scheme.
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- # [20:51] <MikeSmith> cbright6062: are you still getting and DB errors from wiki.whatwg.org?
- # [20:55] <cbright6062> MikeSmith: No
- # [20:55] <MikeSmith> ok
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- # [21:07] <annevk> rafaelw_: btw, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120501#l-448
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- # [21:11] <AryehGregor> rniwa, in general I'm not around during American working hours -- I'm now in Israel, GMT+0200.
- # [21:11] <rniwa> AryehGregor: ah, ok
- # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Right now I just logged on for a few minutes.
- # [21:12] <rniwa> AryehGregor: when can i talk to you?
- # [21:12] <AryehGregor> E-mail or bug report posting or whatever is best.
- # [21:12] <rniwa> AryehGregor: okay.
- # [21:12] <rniwa> AryehGregor: will do that.
- # [21:12] <AryehGregor> When I'm working it's generally between 8:30 and 6:00 my time, which is 10:30 PM to 8:00 AM Pacific time.
- # [21:13] <AryehGregor> And usually now more like 8:30 to 2:00, so even the East Coast I can't talk to much.
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- # [23:10] <smaug____> annevk: does dom4 spec try to load something from whatwg?
- # [23:11] <smaug____> the latter seems to be very slow atm
- # [23:12] <Hixie> odd
- # [23:12] <Hixie> several people have reported several weird failure modes on that server today
- # [23:12] <Hixie> and i can't reproduce any of them
- # [23:15] <annevk> smaug____: yes
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- # [23:15] <annevk> smaug____: stylesheet and script
- # [23:16] <annevk> smaug____: maybe just a script these days
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- # [23:16] <smaug____> that is silly ;)
- # [23:16] <annevk> smaug____: it's at the end of the document
- # [23:16] <smaug____> given that whatwg.org isn't very reliable server
- # [23:16] <annevk> and helps with cross-references
- # [23:16] <annevk> w3.org isn't either
- # [23:16] <smaug____> true
- # [23:16] <smaug____> but the doc is in w3.org
- # [23:17] <annevk> if you volunteer maintaining that file you could host and maintain it on w3.org and I'll link it, no problem
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- # [23:58] <cbright6062> By the way, just making a random observation: I find it amusing that the blog hasn't been formatted with the newer HTML coding.
- # Session Close: Wed May 02 00:00:30 2012
The end :)