/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 04 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:05] <annevk> I'm now marking promoted tweets as spam
  7. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> me too
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  36. # [01:03] <annevk> aaaargh
  37. # [01:03] <annevk> so I do the forward thing
  38. # [01:04] <annevk> but Gmail keeps giving me "Delivery Status Notification (Failure)"
  39. # [01:04] <annevk> while when sending anything to the address does arrive at the address
  40. # [01:04] <annevk> it seems like DreamHost is blocking a particular kind of email from Gmail
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  74. # [02:58] <bencc> can a web worker script be loaded from a different domain?
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  97. # [04:07] <padenot> what should I do if I found a typo in the html spec ? send a email to whatwg@lists.whatwg.org ?
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  109. # [04:42] <Hixie> padenot: mention it in the box at the bottom left of the spec and hit the button there
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  111. # [04:47] <padenot> Hixie: done, thank you.
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  114. # [04:48] <Hixie> padenot: thank _you_!
  115. # [04:48] <Hixie> padenot: if you want to be acknowledged in the spec, mention your name in the bug, too
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  157. # [07:23] <AryehGregor> annevk, I only asked because smaug pinged me about it. I'm okay with no spec change yet -- the relevant implementers are aware of it (at least Gecko/WebKit).
  158. # [07:25] <annevk> Opera/IE too if they follow bug files against DOM which they should
  159. # [07:25] <annevk> goes for every vendor really
  160. # [07:25] <AryehGregor> Hixie, MediaWiki uses the user id as the salt. As Philip` points out, the username doesn't work, unless either a) the username never changes, or b) the user is required to enter their password before the username change takes effect (bad if you want admins to be able to unilaterally change names), or . . . there are probably other things you could do.
  161. # [07:26] <AryehGregor> Also, it would be a problem if the username is not bit-for-bit what the user entered -- e.g., if whitespace is trimmed, or it's case-insensitive, etc.
  162. # [07:26] <AryehGregor> Applications tend to do various sorts of application-specific username normalization.
  163. # [07:28] <AryehGregor> Using user id as the salt only has the problem that they don't vary as much as a smallish random ASCII string -- there's probably a user 1, user 2, etc. -- so it doesn't provide as much protection as you'd want against dictionary attacks.
  164. # [07:29] <AryehGregor> Ideally you'd probably want to use a salt that's itself longer than any feasible dictionary, so that attackers can't use a dictionary to recognize the hash of even an empty-string password.
  165. # [07:30] <AryehGregor> (by "itself longer than any feasible dictionary" I of course mean "longer than could be cracked by any feasible dictionary even before you add the password")
  166. # [07:31] <AryehGregor> The latter isn't an issue for MediaWiki, though, because it uses md5(id + '-' + md5(password)), so the thing you're hashing is always long. There's not much likelihood of being able to save anything over using brute force here.
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  290. # [16:31] <jgraham> Hmm, browsers seem intent on defying me
  291. # [16:33] <jgraham> If I add an async script (e.g. through DOM methods), then stop sending data for the main document for a bit (e.g. by doing ob_flush(); flush(); sleep() in PHP) then I would expect the (fast-loading) async script to have run before parsing resumes
  292. # [16:33] <jgraham> But either I am doing it wrong or that isn't happening
  293. # [16:33] <jgraham> *sleep(10)
  294. # [16:34] <annevk> do you get a load event for the script?
  295. # [16:34] <jgraham> The async script?
  296. # [16:35] <annevk> yeah
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  300. # [16:36] <jgraham> Yeah.
  301. # [16:36] <jgraham> Well actually in gecko it seems OK now
  302. # [16:37] <jgraham> Dunno if I changed something significant
  303. # [16:37] <jgraham> Chrome still fails
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  305. # [16:38] <jgraham> And Opera is just weird
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  307. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Opera was weird first?
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  309. # [16:43] <zewt_> jgraham: i wouldn't be surprised if browsers treated async scripts as if they happen to load after the page finishes loading, to reduce racy site bugs
  310. # [16:43] * zewt_ is now known as zewt
  311. # [16:46] <jgraham> That could be what webkit's doing I guess
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  313. # [16:46] <jgraham> But then the spec is a lie
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  315. # [16:46] <zewt> well, if the behavior is indistinguishable to scripts, it's not really
  316. # [16:46] <annevk> that's defer...
  317. # [16:46] <zewt> eg. if conceptually the script is stuck in a TCP receive buffer and hasn't been received by the browser until the page happened to finish loading
  318. # [16:47] <zewt> well, defer does a bit more, iirc (guarantees order, and iirc guarantees scripts happen before load? not sure offhand)
  319. # [16:48] <jgraham> Right defer is different
  320. # [16:55] <zewt> i'm surprised anyone supports async, since it seems like an interop nightmare
  321. # [16:55] <zewt> (at least as it's described above--been a while since I've really squinted how it works)
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  360. # [18:40] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  361. # [18:40] <charlvn> good evening dglazkov
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  378. # [19:27] <gsnedders> Anyone got any experience of dealing with online stalkers?
  379. # [19:29] <tantek> gsnedders - nothing for stalkers in particular, but perhaps you can find something you can re-use from the Troll Taxonomy: tantek.com/w/TrollTaxonomy
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  381. # [19:31] <gsnedders> (If anyone wants to actually have any discussion about that with me, PM.)
  382. # [19:31] <gsnedders> (Logged channel, etc.)
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  391. # [19:58] <annevk> hmm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg/2012May/0015.html
  392. # [19:59] <annevk> we should get this mailing list mess sorted
  393. # [19:59] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  394. # [19:59] <Hixie> yeah, mike is on it
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  396. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: strawman proposal: make public-whatwg@w3.org the actual list, move existing whatwg@whatwg.org subscribers over to that
  397. # [20:00] <Hixie> not happening
  398. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> OK
  399. # [20:00] <Hixie> :-)
  400. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> I had to ask
  401. # [20:00] <Hixie> we have way too much stuff pointing to whatwg@ already
  402. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> ok
  403. # [20:00] <Hixie> (and i'd have to have admin rights to public-whatwg to be able to ban people, etc, which the cg rules say i can't have)
  404. # [20:01] <hober> public-whatwg@w3.org shouldn't even exist if you ask me [which you didn't :)]
  405. # [20:01] <Hixie> this isn't a problem limited to the whatwg cg list, anyway. the editing cg has the same problem, for instance
  406. # [20:02] <Hixie> hober: agreed
  407. # [20:02] <hober> right. all cgs which use pre-existing infrastructure
  408. # [20:02] <Hixie> right
  409. # [20:03] * ojan_away is now known as ojan_gardening
  410. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> yeah, I have pointed out to others on the team that this should be configurable
  411. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> unfortunately it is currently not configurable
  412. # [20:05] <othermaciej> MikeSmith, Hixie: would it be feasible to, for example, subscribe public-whatwg@w3.org to whatwg@whatwg.org, so joining the CG puts you on the right list?
  413. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: done that
  414. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> we had to revert it
  415. # [20:05] <othermaciej> oh?
  416. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> people then get duplicate messages
  417. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> and really we don't need a new mailing list
  418. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> we have a perfectly good mailing list already
  419. # [20:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: the other worry is people posting to public-whatwg
  420. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> right
  421. # [20:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: and their messages being lost in the ether
  422. # [20:06] <othermaciej> hmm, good point
  423. # [20:06] <Hixie> as just happened with dougt's message
  424. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
  425. # [20:06] <Hixie> (i told dougt to repost to whatwg)
  426. # [20:07] <Hixie> (though thanks to annevk for pointing it out because looks like i never got that mail)
  427. # [20:07] <Hixie> (dunno why)
  428. # [20:07] <othermaciej> I guess to really make use of the pre-existing list, joining the CG should automatically add you to the right list, and the public-whatwg@ list should not even be in the picture
  429. # [20:08] <Hixie> there's really no reason for anyone to be joining the CG unless they have specific patents they want to grant
  430. # [20:08] <Hixie> and even then -- i don't know that the FSA requires membership
  431. # [20:08] <Hixie> the exception would be someone like anne who wants to contribute actual text (as with his specs that he submitted recently)
  432. # [20:08] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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  434. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> talking with systems team about it now
  435. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> will create public-whatwg-archive@w3.org for the archive mirror
  436. # [20:27] <Hixie> nice
  437. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> and close public-whatwg@w3.org to postings
  438. # [20:27] <Hixie> yay
  439. # [20:27] <Hixie> +1 to systeam
  440. # [20:30] <hober> whooo!
  441. # [20:31] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  444. # [20:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: public-whatwg-archive also being closed for postings right?
  445. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, but that part I need to figure out
  446. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> because it does actually have to accept some postings
  447. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> that is, the stuff that's posted to whatwg@whatwg.org
  448. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> which is from various addresses of course
  449. # [20:43] <Hixie> well all the e-mails will look like they're coming from the whatwg list, right?
  450. # [20:44] <Hixie> can you just mark it moderated except for the whatwg list?
  451. # [20:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah okay
  452. # [20:45] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  453. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I'm sure it's doable. Just need to get the attention of our mailing-list guru on the systems team
  454. # [20:45] <annevk> MikeSmith: it seems it should be possible to only accept the messages that come back from whatwg@whatwg.org
  455. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> right
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  459. # [20:57] * Hixie finds himself replying to his own feedback on whatwg@
  460. # [20:57] <Hixie> (and rejecting it)
  461. # [20:58] <annevk> hey past-Hixie, you were wrong. sincerely, today-Hixie
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  464. # [20:59] <Hixie> i didn't even realise that i was the one who wrote it until i noticed someone else replying to that e-mail saying i'd written it, because i don't pay any attention to who writes the feedback when replying
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  469. # [21:04] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  470. # [21:05] <jwalden> what happened to the ability to mark log lines as important in the logs?
  471. # [21:06] <annevk> bit late, but thanks to hober we now have http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22393119375
  472. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> heh
  473. # [21:07] <annevk> need to get a bit more creative
  474. # [21:07] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4)
  475. # [21:08] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  476. # [21:10] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@cl-2393.ams-05.nl.sixxs.net)
  477. # [21:10] <hober> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22393334041
  478. # [21:10] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-117-240.dynamic.hinet.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  479. # [21:12] <Hixie> http://imgflip.com/i/1avf
  480. # [21:12] <annevk> hehe, I'll submit that
  481. # [21:12] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-117-240.dynamic.hinet.net)
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  485. # [21:20] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@205.248.100.252)
  486. # [21:23] <Hixie> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22393866467
  487. # [21:23] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@c-67-180-84-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: shepazu)
  488. # [21:23] <Hixie> ok i'll stop being a troll now
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  504. # [21:47] <smaug____> has something changed in freenode? it started to require sasl here
  505. # [21:47] * smaug____ has no idea what sasl is
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  511. # [22:14] <annevk> Hixie: hahahaha
  512. # [22:16] <Velmont> smaug____: sasl is the ssl email auth thing? Seem to remember something like that when I set up email server.
  513. # [22:16] * Quits: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDB8B91.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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  518. # [22:20] <smaug____> Velmont: not ssl
  519. # [22:20] <smaug____> Velmont: I do use ssl connection to irc.mozilla.org for example
  520. # [22:20] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-221-171-5-98.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  521. # [22:20] <smaug____> freenode started to require sasl for me
  522. # [22:20] * Joins: zena (~Zena@cpe-74-72-193-175.nyc.res.rr.com)
  523. # [22:20] <smaug____> (using a different connection than usually)
  524. # [22:21] <smaug____> so, I had to install sasl plugin to Chatzilla
  525. # [22:22] <miketaylr> i've had that message when tethering before
  526. # [22:28] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.137.187)
  527. # [22:32] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  528. # [22:32] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  529. # [22:32] <dglazkov> smaug____: use irccloud.com
  530. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, do you know how badly that leaks? ;)
  531. # [22:33] <smaug____> and irccloud is pretty horrible webapp anyway
  532. # [22:33] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: leaks what
  533. # [22:34] <Ms2ger> All the objects
  534. # [22:34] <smaug____> dglazkov: it kills all the known browsers
  535. # [22:34] <dglazkov> smaug____: works great on Chrome?
  536. # [22:34] <smaug____> well, in chrome is kills only the tab I think
  537. # [22:34] <smaug____> dglazkov: have you kept it open for a long time?
  538. # [22:34] <dglazkov> um... you're talking with someone who's been using it for a fairly long time.
  539. # [22:35] <smaug____> dglazkov: you keep it open for weeks?
  540. # [22:35] <dglazkov> no, why do I need to?
  541. # [22:35] <smaug____> well, to have IRC open all the time
  542. # [22:36] <smaug____> I know it keeps the connection open in the background sure.
  543. # [22:36] <dglazkov> irccloud makes you always online. You don't have to have the tab open
  544. # [22:36] <smaug____> but if you actually *use* irc all the time
  545. # [22:36] <dglazkov> I keep it open when I use it, sure.
  546. # [22:37] <smaug____> anyhow, I prefer Chatzilla :)
  547. # [22:37] <smaug____> it doesn't leak
  548. # [22:37] <dglazkov> smaug____: that's fine :) I was just trying to be helpful.
  549. # [22:37] * smaug____ should continue investigating leak logs from Google Reader.
  550. # [22:38] <smaug____> I wonder if anyone from chrome team looks at leaky web sites
  551. # [22:38] <smaug____> s/looks/investigates/
  552. # [22:39] <jgraham> You should all be using irssi anyway
  553. # [22:39] <Hixie> annevk: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22398040394 :-P
  554. # [22:39] <smaug____> jgraham: yeah, irssi is an option
  555. # [22:39] <smaug____> but don't like its UI
  556. # [22:40] <smaug____> I use irssi on my N9
  557. # [22:40] <dglazkov> smaug____: yep. ask simonjam, anniesullivan, or tonyg on #webkit
  558. # [22:40] <dglazkov> smaug____: for some reason they are all offline atm
  559. # [22:40] <jgraham> dglazkov: Maybe their irccloud tabs died :p
  560. # [22:40] <smaug____> dglazkov: just wondering if you see Google Reader to leak in Chrome too
  561. # [22:41] <smaug____> but I'll ask them later
  562. # [22:41] <dglazkov> smaug____: no clue. I've been spec-writing for the last 4 months, so I don't know what is real or not anymore.
  563. # [22:41] <jgraham> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0125.html
  564. # [22:41] <smaug____> heh
  565. # [22:42] <jgraham> Pretty disappointing responses so far. bz seems convinced that prefixes are needed despite the fact that they are presumably screwing over Mozilla hard on mobile
  566. # [22:43] <jgraham> Although his points are not unreasonable
  567. # [22:43] <smaug____> bz's points rarely are unreasonable
  568. # [22:45] <Hixie> too true
  569. # [22:46] <annevk> you can usually make changes if only one browser supports it
  570. # [22:46] <othermaciej> jgraham: needed ever, or needed for the same extent they are applied currently (til CR)
  571. # [22:47] <annevk> if you wait five years though and everyone else supports the features too with prefixes
  572. # [22:47] <annevk> well then you're fucked
  573. # [22:47] <jgraham> othermaciej: Closer to "needed ever"
  574. # [22:47] <othermaciej> I have only read fragments of that thread but I think I might sort of agree with his position
  575. # [22:48] <annevk> Hixie: guess I did troll, my point took about 25min to sink in
  576. # [22:48] <othermaciej> I would say properties should be prefixed until a condition is met such as: (a) spec taken up as work item by the WG; (b) there are at least two implementations
  577. # [22:48] <othermaciej> (not necessarily complete ones)
  578. # [22:49] <othermaciej> maybe even only (a)
  579. # [22:49] <jgraham> That is still going to leave us with content that will only work in a single implementation even when other implementations have the feature
  580. # [22:49] <jgraham> Although possibly less of it
  581. # [22:50] <Hixie> i like how the htmlwg is now talking about how they are the group that "owns" stuff
  582. # [22:50] * Joins: Bass10 (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  583. # [22:50] <Hixie> as if that was how it worked :-)
  584. # [22:51] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  585. # [22:52] <Velmont> :P
  586. # [22:52] <annevk> don't tell glazman
  587. # [22:54] <jgraham> (it will also leave authors writing content that will break if changes are made to the unprefixed semantics because they will include both and put the unprefixed version last)
  588. # [22:55] * Quits: teleject (~christoph@70.116.86.65) (Quit: teleject)
  589. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> New bug: "I don't like public data"
  590. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> Hah
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  594. # [23:02] <annevk> i need images for
  595. # [23:03] <annevk> "chair did not know HTML5 includes XML syntax"
  596. # [23:03] <annevk> and
  597. # [23:03] <annevk> "going through the charter line by line; because that's how we look productive"
  598. # [23:08] <annevk> tantek: is the neato from you?
  599. # [23:08] <Velmont> Soo funny :D
  600. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> Condescending Wonka++
  601. # [23:13] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
  602. # [23:14] <Hixie> anne: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22400217421
  603. # [23:15] <Hixie> :-P
  604. # [23:15] <Ms2ger> Don't you all have work to do? Reviewing charters? :)
  605. # [23:15] * Quits: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox)
  606. # [23:16] <dglazkov> there's enough acidity in these memes to burn holes through steel.
  607. # [23:16] <dglazkov> I have another idea: "working on clever memes? don't you have work to do?" :P
  608. # [23:16] <annevk> Hixie: oh god
  609. # [23:17] * Quits: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  610. # [23:17] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, Web Components? [Condescending Wonka] Yeah, that will go well
  611. # [23:17] <Velmont> Anne laughed out loud :| doesn't fit with the meeting, hard to hold it.
  612. # [23:18] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: heey.
  613. # [23:18] * dglazkov gives Ms2ger a hurt look
  614. # [23:18] * Ms2ger pats dglazkov on the back
  615. # [23:18] <Ms2ger> We all have silly ideas at some point ;)
  616. # [23:18] <dglazkov> :)
  617. # [23:19] <hober> one of the recent memes forced me to leave the room for a laugh break. i'm not saying which one.
  618. # [23:26] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-taczrpjioffkmxvu)
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  620. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> the meme meeting backchannel .. breaking new ground
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  622. # [23:30] <bencc> do web workers support CORS?
  623. # [23:30] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: that's the only thing that tells me that there's a meeting.
  624. # [23:30] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: I had completely blown off htmlwg meet. I was worried for my health.
  625. # [23:31] <Hixie> bencc: not yet
  626. # [23:31] <Hixie> bencc: but it is on the cards
  627. # [23:31] <dglazkov> besides, isn't HTML5 done already? What's there to meet about.
  628. # [23:31] <Hixie> bencc: though actually the alternative suggestion is just to run the script in the other origin
  629. # [23:32] <Hixie> bencc: i haven't added this to the spec yet mostly because i'm not sure whether doing so would cause the w3c trouble (they're trying to publish a snapshot)
  630. # [23:32] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  631. # [23:32] <Hixie> bencc: and i'm not sure whether to just stop updating the w3c copy or wait or slow down the w3c process
  632. # [23:32] <bencc> Hixie: how can I run the script in the other origin?
  633. # [23:32] <Hixie> bencc: right now you can't, but the idea would be that you can launch a worker and it runs in the worker's script's origin, if it opts in to doing so
  634. # [23:32] <bencc> Hixie: agreed. cors support for webworkers will be the last update though :)
  635. # [23:33] <Hixie> there are other things suggested also
  636. # [23:33] <Hixie> e.g. spawning a thread from a data: url or text string of code
  637. # [23:33] <Hixie> or using workers in appcache
  638. # [23:33] <jgraham> dglazkov: In the absence of anything technical, one can always talk Process
  639. # [23:33] * Joins: teleject (~christoph@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net)
  640. # [23:34] <bencc> Hixie: all suggestions will be very wellcome
  641. # [23:34] <dglazkov> jgraham: true.
  642. # [23:35] <othermaciej> dglazkov: we did actually get people to agree on some of the open issues
  643. # [23:35] <othermaciej> at least, the set of people here
  644. # [23:36] <dglazkov> othermaciej: that's great to hear
  645. # [23:36] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  646. # [23:36] <othermaciej> for example, it was generally agreed that replicating the ARIA syntax requirements for every ARIA attribute in the HTML5 spec was not a good idea
  647. # [23:37] <Ms2ger> Ohrly
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  650. # [23:45] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  651. # [23:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22402024765 !
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  653. # [23:46] <othermaciej> :-p
  654. # [23:46] <Ms2ger> It's funny, because it's eating your soul
  655. # [23:48] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-221-171-5-98.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  656. # [23:51] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.137.187) (Quit: nn)
  657. # [23:52] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-221-171-5-98.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  658. # [23:54] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  659. # [23:55] <annevk> Hixie: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22402668355
  660. # Session Close: Sat May 05 00:00:00 2012

The end :)